Shard Economy Changes [MEGA]

Replies

  • Hornist wrote: »
    It is a nerd. I agree with you on that. And it does need addressed but some are acting like it is cutting their shard currency in half. That just isn't the case.

    I get shards from the following sources regularly on my main account.

    5-10 shards a day from cantina (depends on how many refreshes)

    15 from arena store a day

    15 from gw store (yes I do the ships but it converts roughly the same as 15 character shards)

    About 7 a day from gw drops

    And probably 10 a day on average from bronizums (it varies but let's say 8 of them are from full drops)

    So that's about 54 shards or so a day on average. The nerf will effectively take away 4 of those a day. That's an effective reduction in shard shop currency of about 7%. That still isn't good but it isn't the sky is falling disaster that will ruin.

    I'm going to nitpick here a bit. Because I feel like this isn't very accurate.

    1. Not everyone is done w/ every Cantina farm in the game to be using Cantina energy for Shard Farming.

    2. 15/Day from Arena is impossible as that would be 1200/Day Coins & 1100 is Max if you take 1st every single day of the year. Which also isn't relevant to the vast majority of the population.

    3. 7 from GW is possible but certainly not the "Average"

    4. ONLY 10/Day from Bronziums? I honestly don't think a day goes by were I don't get at least 1 of the 1* openings w/ several singles. I'd say the Bronzium averages over 10/day for sure & certainly over 10 a day is the average from Full Characters since I get a 25 a couple times a month & plenty of days with 2+ of the 1* openings.


    My own totals would probably be ...........
    0-Cantina
    15-GWar Store
    8-Squad
    4-Gwar Sim
    13+ Bronziums (11+ avg from Openings)

    So closer to 40/Day is what I'd call "normal" and being nerfed from 10-12 for 5-6 in value.
    Which is 15% income or so.
    No one wants 15% paycut..... ever.


    Agreed. This is MUCH closer to what my SSC shards are like. I am at a point where more than half the character shards I'm farming are Original Rate(less than a year old) so I gain literally nothing for over half my character farms and will lose anywhere from 10%-30% of my gear day to day. The only benefit for an account like mine specifically(3.78GP, all legendaries except JKL, TB farms, and no GLs,) is the double shards from cantina farms, of which I still need about ten characters.

    So that's cool, but I'm still losing a TON of gear, which matters infinite more for my farming timeline than shards do, and new accounts are going to run into the exact same issues. I can already farm shards for a marquee about twice as fast as gearing a team up to G13(I got Mando, Greef and Cara to 80/100 in the same time I got GAS to G13, and rex, fives and Echo to G12, STILL not relicd, and I won't be for a while.)

    That being said, I choose to slightly focus my energy on character shards more than gear, and I don't usually use refreshes(avg of 5/week on the high end,) instead buying gear in bulk, but the reason I do that is that it seems to be more efficient with my specific roster, so take what I said here with a grain of salt.

    Regardless, as far as gear goes, I ONLY lose with this update, and gear is already a much deeper bottleneck than shards, and that won't change because I can farm AR characters faster.

    Overall I REALLY love this change, but I'm am very disappointed that CG doesn't(at the moment) seem to be interested in making sure the change is either net neutral or net positive for gear, which frustrates me, being a mid-tier player. Don't take this as me saying this is a bad move, srsly, CG GOOD JOB WITH THIS NO CAP <3

    (But I really hope y'all can get the SSC conversion at least 100% net neutral.)

    You choosing to use crystals inefficiently on gear from the stores rather than energy refreshes is part of the reason that gear is a crunch.

    And what do you buy from the cantina store. Ship credits? You aren't counting any shards from there. That seems like a waste once you have a fleet. And if you have all legendary characters except jkl, then you likely don't need ship credits too badly. You get at least 5 a day from free energy tokens.

    And you may not get first in arena but you have to be pretty far down to only get 800 arena store tokens a day.

    That would put your calculation at about 13%. I came out with 7% (mostly due to energy refreshes on cantina and better arena ranking) so 10% is a good average.

    That's a good average for people in the top chunk of gameplay. People without the high end arena rewards, and people without the cantina fully farmed, aren't gonna balance out that easily. And if those players are being nerfed even after a 10% fix, then 10% wasn't the average and the fix isn't "as close as possible." You gotta be careful making generalizations that every end game player hits top 10 in arena. That's literally impossible unless every shard in the world operated with a payout discord. The vast majority of high end players still have to fight for their spots and many will never break top 10 for those rewards you're calculating "average" with. So it's not the average.

    I would say for the sake of erring on the side of net positive to be safe, the average should be seen as closer to 20% unless someone actually pulls data from any significant number of players to calculate otherwise.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Montanz wrote: »
    At the end of the day not doubling the character unlock pulls of 10/25/50/80 is a huge nerf. Everyone will get burnt by this eventually, even new players once they finish the outdated toons offered there.

    This is the kind of change that CG has done in the past to seemingly benefit players but end up hurting them in the long run.

    When mk8 biotech salvage was removed from the HAAT ppl didn’t seem to mind (even I didn’t mind as I had 3000) there was a minority of smart players who knew it would be bad but they got downvoted. Fast forward 2 years and now you don’t have any cos every toon needed 4x60 of them. That was a nerf hidden in good news of a chance to get the other rewards.

    Maybe that story is a poor example, but back then the majority wanted them removed and they got removed. Now veterans are buying them from shard shop (rip) and guild store.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is I do think these seemingly positive changes need to be examined closely and everyone needs to understand the devs will always have a bigger picture plan to get you to spend money no matter how nice an update sounds.

    We were fools for wanting that HAAT gear change and we will be fools again for letting this bronzium nerf pass by unchecked. The complaints are warranted and many ppl have felt the burn before. Stop thinking the player base doesn’t know what’s going on CG.

    Edit: it may be the case that something about the gear economy gets changed to balance what will happen with the shard changes. But we don’t know that. All we know is what is happening now.

    I think that example isn't really a good one. When they removed the eyeballs that we had a ton of from haat, you got other gear that we didn't have a ton of instead. So it wasn't like it was removed and you just didn't get gear from that slot.

    Your case on this current issue is also a bit overblown. If you have a ton of characters to farm (aka you are a newer player), the time you save and energy you can put towards gear farming (a hard node now takes 3 mo for older characters instead of 6) more than outweighs the bronizum nerf.

    I don't like the bronizum nerf either and it certainly doesn't follow the intended goal they stated. But it is not as large a nerf for most players as you are indicating.

    Actually a lot of the best gear from the shard shop comes from late ship nodes, and they didn't enhance that farm, so after a certain point the crunch will still hit when no new players have good fleets and have to spend 30 stun guns on all of their 7* g8 toons they've gotten at an accelerated pace. And once they've spent 8.2 million credits per toon. And after they get to the point where they've 7*'d all 33 of the Bronzium toons twice as fast making the Bronzium nerf also hit them.

    I think maybe his comparison is a tad off, but I disagree that it's overblown. And your energy analogy only applies to newer players anyway, since most of us aren't "saving energy" by farming old toons faster now. We have them all 7* and farm gear nods specifically so we don't have to get as many in the shard shop. This nerf is huge for veterans right now, and the longer it goes with double drops and no Bronzium fix, the more the new players who got "help" are gonna run into the same wall.

    It is a nerd. I agree with you on that. And it does need addressed but some are acting like it is cutting their shard currency in half. That just isn't the case.

    I get shards from the following sources regularly on my main account.

    5-10 shards a day from cantina (depends on how many refreshes)

    15 from arena store a day

    15 from gw store (yes I do the ships but it converts roughly the same as 15 character shards)

    About 7 a day from gw drops

    And probably 10 a day on average from bronizums (it varies but let's say 8 of them are from full drops)

    So that's about 54 shards or so a day on average. The nerf will effectively take away 4 of those a day. That's an effective reduction in shard shop currency of about 7%. That still isn't good but it isn't the sky is falling disaster that will ruin.

    You fleet node point also doesn't hold water. It only takes one fleet to beat all the fleet nodes. If you pick ones that don't have 3 characters per ship and that are decent enough anyway, that isn't too big of hurdle.

    If you spend half your energy farming characters and the other half farming stun guns, you would still 7 star the old characters at the same rate you do now and still have half your energy to farm stun guns. You can gear the 7 pilots to g11 or g12 fairly easily to beat the fleet nodes.

    If you gear bugs, vader, bossk, boba, tarkin and jka you can have a fleet that can plow through the pve content with little waste.

    You need bugs for geo tb eventually anyway. Vader is amazing. Bossk and boba are good for a lot of bh pve content. Jka is great is late game fleet anyway and good for other parts of the game. Tarkin isn't great but probably better than mace or ackbar if you want a lean fleet.

    This is one case. My personal shard shop currency is far different. I get a maximum, right now, of about 20-40 shards/day from sources other than Bronziums. I am by no means a new account, but not veteran either. I get on average about 20-40 shards from full character pulls every 2 days so my SSC is being cut nearer to 30% than 4%, assuming the average of my shard pulls. For people caught between being new accounts and launch accounts, this hits pretty hard, especially because it is the most consistent source of shards when all of your energy goes to new character farms or gear/relic farms.

    I'm not saying this is going to destroy progress, nor is anyone else I think, but honestly with gear being as bad as it is already, ANY nerf is going to suck, and for a lot of accounts this is a pretty decent percentage. I end up getting sometimes a third or more of my daily gear from the shard shop as well, so this effectively slows an already lugubrious process by 10-30% depending on the day/week.

    So this update only speeds up your farming by only 40-20%.

    Wrong. It literally only slows my farming. All but cantina farms for me are Original Rate characters (1 out of 6,) so if you factor that in as total 'net' gain it is still negative, but that isn't even what I saying. Character shard farms are not the main bottleneck, gear is. For me specifically, gear isabit twice as limiting as shards, if not moreso depending on what my target is(GLs are FAR worse, shards are less than 10% of the total farm.)

    So that 100% gain for shards translates to a 5% increase I farm rate(shards, and tbh this is very liberal) and at absolute best(for me) a 10% total reduction in gear(90%+ of current target) which means my progress slows by around 4-10% at ABSOLUTE BEST case scenario(which is nowhere near the actual average for me.) 4% of a 1-year farm is over two weeks extra time, not huge, but still a tangible net negative change, and tbh, the change will be much closer to a 10-30% reduction overall.

    That is actually the opposite of what you said.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Hornist wrote: »
    Montanz wrote: »
    At the end of the day not doubling the character unlock pulls of 10/25/50/80 is a huge nerf. Everyone will get burnt by this eventually, even new players once they finish the outdated toons offered there.

    This is the kind of change that CG has done in the past to seemingly benefit players but end up hurting them in the long run.

    When mk8 biotech salvage was removed from the HAAT ppl didn’t seem to mind (even I didn’t mind as I had 3000) there was a minority of smart players who knew it would be bad but they got downvoted. Fast forward 2 years and now you don’t have any cos every toon needed 4x60 of them. That was a nerf hidden in good news of a chance to get the other rewards.

    Maybe that story is a poor example, but back then the majority wanted them removed and they got removed. Now veterans are buying them from shard shop (rip) and guild store.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is I do think these seemingly positive changes need to be examined closely and everyone needs to understand the devs will always have a bigger picture plan to get you to spend money no matter how nice an update sounds.

    We were fools for wanting that HAAT gear change and we will be fools again for letting this bronzium nerf pass by unchecked. The complaints are warranted and many ppl have felt the burn before. Stop thinking the player base doesn’t know what’s going on CG.

    Edit: it may be the case that something about the gear economy gets changed to balance what will happen with the shard changes. But we don’t know that. All we know is what is happening now.

    I think that example isn't really a good one. When they removed the eyeballs that we had a ton of from haat, you got other gear that we didn't have a ton of instead. So it wasn't like it was removed and you just didn't get gear from that slot.

    Your case on this current issue is also a bit overblown. If you have a ton of characters to farm (aka you are a newer player), the time you save and energy you can put towards gear farming (a hard node now takes 3 mo for older characters instead of 6) more than outweighs the bronizum nerf.

    I don't like the bronizum nerf either and it certainly doesn't follow the intended goal they stated. But it is not as large a nerf for most players as you are indicating.

    Actually a lot of the best gear from the shard shop comes from late ship nodes, and they didn't enhance that farm, so after a certain point the crunch will still hit when no new players have good fleets and have to spend 30 stun guns on all of their 7* g8 toons they've gotten at an accelerated pace. And once they've spent 8.2 million credits per toon. And after they get to the point where they've 7*'d all 33 of the Bronzium toons twice as fast making the Bronzium nerf also hit them.

    I think maybe his comparison is a tad off, but I disagree that it's overblown. And your energy analogy only applies to newer players anyway, since most of us aren't "saving energy" by farming old toons faster now. We have them all 7* and farm gear nods specifically so we don't have to get as many in the shard shop. This nerf is huge for veterans right now, and the longer it goes with double drops and no Bronzium fix, the more the new players who got "help" are gonna run into the same wall.

    It is a nerd. I agree with you on that. And it does need addressed but some are acting like it is cutting their shard currency in half. That just isn't the case.

    I get shards from the following sources regularly on my main account.

    5-10 shards a day from cantina (depends on how many refreshes)

    15 from arena store a day

    15 from gw store (yes I do the ships but it converts roughly the same as 15 character shards)

    About 7 a day from gw drops

    And probably 10 a day on average from bronizums (it varies but let's say 8 of them are from full drops)

    So that's about 54 shards or so a day on average. The nerf will effectively take away 4 of those a day. That's an effective reduction in shard shop currency of about 7%. That still isn't good but it isn't the sky is falling disaster that will ruin.

    You fleet node point also doesn't hold water. It only takes one fleet to beat all the fleet nodes. If you pick ones that don't have 3 characters per ship and that are decent enough anyway, that isn't too big of hurdle.

    If you spend half your energy farming characters and the other half farming stun guns, you would still 7 star the old characters at the same rate you do now and still have half your energy to farm stun guns. You can gear the 7 pilots to g11 or g12 fairly easily to beat the fleet nodes.

    If you gear bugs, vader, bossk, boba, tarkin and jka you can have a fleet that can plow through the pve content with little waste.

    You need bugs for geo tb eventually anyway. Vader is amazing. Bossk and boba are good for a lot of bh pve content. Jka is great is late game fleet anyway and good for other parts of the game. Tarkin isn't great but probably better than mace or ackbar if you want a lean fleet.

    This is one case. My personal shard shop currency is far different. I get a maximum, right now, of about 20-40 shards/day from sources other than Bronziums. I am by no means a new account, but not veteran either. I get on average about 20-40 shards from full character pulls every 2 days so my SSC is being cut nearer to 30% than 4%, assuming the average of my shard pulls. For people caught between being new accounts and launch accounts, this hits pretty hard, especially because it is the most consistent source of shards when all of your energy goes to new character farms or gear/relic farms.

    I'm not saying this is going to destroy progress, nor is anyone else I think, but honestly with gear being as bad as it is already, ANY nerf is going to suck, and for a lot of accounts this is a pretty decent percentage. I end up getting sometimes a third or more of my daily gear from the shard shop as well, so this effectively slows an already lugubrious process by 10-30% depending on the day/week.

    So this update only speeds up your farming by only 40-20%.

    Wrong. It literally only slows my farming. All but cantina farms for me are Original Rate characters (1 out of 6,) so if you factor that in as total 'net' gain it is still negative, but that isn't even what I saying. Character shard farms are not the main bottleneck, gear is. For me specifically, gear isabit twice as limiting as shards, if not moreso depending on what my target is(GLs are FAR worse, shards are less than 10% of the total farm.)

    So that 100% gain for shards translates to a 5% increase I farm rate(shards, and tbh this is very liberal) and at absolute best(for me) a 10% total reduction in gear(90%+ of current target) which means my progress slows by around 4-10% at ABSOLUTE BEST case scenario(which is nowhere near the actual average for me.) 4% of a 1-year farm is over two weeks extra time, not huge, but still a tangible net negative change, and tbh, the change will be much closer to a 10-30% reduction overall.

    That is actually the opposite of what you said.

    Yeah, to simplify your point, basically anyone who gets, let's say, 10% of all SSC from Bronzium full drops, which is not out of the realm of possibility by any means. If the SSC price doubles, then your farming just got 10% slower because you have 10% less currency. Over a year of 365 days, that adds 36.5 days, or over a month, to all of your farming. That's huge and needs to be addressed, especially if everyone can settle on a low double-digit being the average nerf amount.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    Let's break that down, because you ignored a key point. This assumes you have enough crystal income (from Arena prizes) to buy three refreshes of Cantina energy, on top of all the other farming you might do. Anyone not in the top 10 of arena can't do that and have any sort of crystals to spare on other farms.

    Also, it could very well just be my accounts, but on a weekly basis, around 50% of all my SSC comes from good Bronzium drops, because weekly is around 100k ally points if you're active. I'm almost guaranteed several full drops per week this way, which is thousands of SSC.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    It is a nerd. I agree with you on that. And it does need addressed but some are acting like it is cutting their shard currency in half. That just isn't the case.

    I get shards from the following sources regularly on my main account.

    5-10 shards a day from cantina (depends on how many refreshes)

    15 from arena store a day

    15 from gw store (yes I do the ships but it converts roughly the same as 15 character shards)

    About 7 a day from gw drops

    And probably 10 a day on average from bronizums (it varies but let's say 8 of them are from full drops)

    So that's about 54 shards or so a day on average. The nerf will effectively take away 4 of those a day. That's an effective reduction in shard shop currency of about 7%. That still isn't good but it isn't the sky is falling disaster that will ruin.

    I'm going to nitpick here a bit. Because I feel like this isn't very accurate.

    1. Not everyone is done w/ every Cantina farm in the game to be using Cantina energy for Shard Farming.

    2. 15/Day from Arena is impossible as that would be 1200/Day Coins & 1100 is Max if you take 1st every single day of the year. Which also isn't relevant to the vast majority of the population.

    3. 7 from GW is possible but certainly not the "Average"

    4. ONLY 10/Day from Bronziums? I honestly don't think a day goes by were I don't get at least 1 of the 1* openings w/ several singles. I'd say the Bronzium averages over 10/day for sure & certainly over 10 a day is the average from Full Characters since I get a 25 a couple times a month & plenty of days with 2+ of the 1* openings.


    My own totals would probably be ...........
    0-Cantina
    15-GWar Store
    8-Squad
    4-Gwar Sim
    13+ Bronziums (11+ avg from Openings)

    So closer to 40/Day is what I'd call "normal" and being nerfed from 10-12 for 5-6 in value.
    Which is 15% income or so.
    No one wants 15% paycut..... ever.


    Agreed. This is MUCH closer to what my SSC shards are like. I am at a point where more than half the character shards I'm farming are Original Rate(less than a year old) so I gain literally nothing for over half my character farms and will lose anywhere from 10%-30% of my gear day to day. The only benefit for an account like mine specifically(3.78GP, all legendaries except JKL, TB farms, and no GLs,) is the double shards from cantina farms, of which I still need about ten characters.

    So that's cool, but I'm still losing a TON of gear, which matters infinite more for my farming timeline than shards do, and new accounts are going to run into the exact same issues. I can already farm shards for a marquee about twice as fast as gearing a team up to G13(I got Mando, Greef and Cara to 80/100 in the same time I got GAS to G13, and rex, fives and Echo to G12, STILL not relicd, and I won't be for a while.)

    That being said, I choose to slightly focus my energy on character shards more than gear, and I don't usually use refreshes(avg of 5/week on the high end,) instead buying gear in bulk, but the reason I do that is that it seems to be more efficient with my specific roster, so take what I said here with a grain of salt.

    Regardless, as far as gear goes, I ONLY lose with this update, and gear is already a much deeper bottleneck than shards, and that won't change because I can farm AR characters faster.

    Overall I REALLY love this change, but I'm am very disappointed that CG doesn't(at the moment) seem to be interested in making sure the change is either net neutral or net positive for gear, which frustrates me, being a mid-tier player. Don't take this as me saying this is a bad move, srsly, CG GOOD JOB WITH THIS NO CAP <3

    (But I really hope y'all can get the SSC conversion at least 100% net neutral.)

    You choosing to use crystals inefficiently on gear from the stores rather than energy refreshes is part of the reason that gear is a crunch.

    And what do you buy from the cantina store. Ship credits? You aren't counting any shards from there. That seems like a waste once you have a fleet. And if you have all legendary characters except jkl, then you likely don't need ship credits too badly. You get at least 5 a day from free energy tokens.

    And you may not get first in arena but you have to be pretty far down to only get 800 arena store tokens a day.

    That would put your calculation at about 13%. I came out with 7% (mostly due to energy refreshes on cantina and better arena ranking) so 10% is a good average.

    That's a good average for people in the top chunk of gameplay. People without the high end arena rewards, and people without the cantina fully farmed, aren't gonna balance out that easily. And if those players are being nerfed even after a 10% fix, then 10% wasn't the average and the fix isn't "as close as possible." You gotta be careful making generalizations that every end game player hits top 10 in arena. That's literally impossible unless every shard in the world operated with a payout discord. The vast majority of high end players still have to fight for their spots and many will never break top 10 for those rewards you're calculating "average" with. So it's not the average.

    I would say for the sake of erring on the side of net positive to be safe, the average should be seen as closer to 20% unless someone actually pulls data from any significant number of players to calculate otherwise.

    I don't think arena plays that big of role. You have to fall out of the top 200 before you get less than 600 tokens. You get 200 for free so that isn't another 10%. Maybe another 2%.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    The problem is you're assuming endgame players and ignoing midgame players like me. I don't need most of the characters that benefit from this, and my SSC numbers are massively different than what you are positioning as endgame, meaning rosters like mine lose out on way more SSC than your numbers, and gain very little in exchange.

    But I think it's kind of besid the point by now. I think we're all pretty well agreed it needs to be addressed.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    It is a nerd. I agree with you on that. And it does need addressed but some are acting like it is cutting their shard currency in half. That just isn't the case.

    I get shards from the following sources regularly on my main account.

    5-10 shards a day from cantina (depends on how many refreshes)

    15 from arena store a day

    15 from gw store (yes I do the ships but it converts roughly the same as 15 character shards)

    About 7 a day from gw drops

    And probably 10 a day on average from bronizums (it varies but let's say 8 of them are from full drops)

    So that's about 54 shards or so a day on average. The nerf will effectively take away 4 of those a day. That's an effective reduction in shard shop currency of about 7%. That still isn't good but it isn't the sky is falling disaster that will ruin.

    I'm going to nitpick here a bit. Because I feel like this isn't very accurate.

    1. Not everyone is done w/ every Cantina farm in the game to be using Cantina energy for Shard Farming.

    2. 15/Day from Arena is impossible as that would be 1200/Day Coins & 1100 is Max if you take 1st every single day of the year. Which also isn't relevant to the vast majority of the population.

    3. 7 from GW is possible but certainly not the "Average"

    4. ONLY 10/Day from Bronziums? I honestly don't think a day goes by were I don't get at least 1 of the 1* openings w/ several singles. I'd say the Bronzium averages over 10/day for sure & certainly over 10 a day is the average from Full Characters since I get a 25 a couple times a month & plenty of days with 2+ of the 1* openings.


    My own totals would probably be ...........
    0-Cantina
    15-GWar Store
    8-Squad
    4-Gwar Sim
    13+ Bronziums (11+ avg from Openings)

    So closer to 40/Day is what I'd call "normal" and being nerfed from 10-12 for 5-6 in value.
    Which is 15% income or so.
    No one wants 15% paycut..... ever.


    Agreed. This is MUCH closer to what my SSC shards are like. I am at a point where more than half the character shards I'm farming are Original Rate(less than a year old) so I gain literally nothing for over half my character farms and will lose anywhere from 10%-30% of my gear day to day. The only benefit for an account like mine specifically(3.78GP, all legendaries except JKL, TB farms, and no GLs,) is the double shards from cantina farms, of which I still need about ten characters.

    So that's cool, but I'm still losing a TON of gear, which matters infinite more for my farming timeline than shards do, and new accounts are going to run into the exact same issues. I can already farm shards for a marquee about twice as fast as gearing a team up to G13(I got Mando, Greef and Cara to 80/100 in the same time I got GAS to G13, and rex, fives and Echo to G12, STILL not relicd, and I won't be for a while.)

    That being said, I choose to slightly focus my energy on character shards more than gear, and I don't usually use refreshes(avg of 5/week on the high end,) instead buying gear in bulk, but the reason I do that is that it seems to be more efficient with my specific roster, so take what I said here with a grain of salt.

    Regardless, as far as gear goes, I ONLY lose with this update, and gear is already a much deeper bottleneck than shards, and that won't change because I can farm AR characters faster.

    Overall I REALLY love this change, but I'm am very disappointed that CG doesn't(at the moment) seem to be interested in making sure the change is either net neutral or net positive for gear, which frustrates me, being a mid-tier player. Don't take this as me saying this is a bad move, srsly, CG GOOD JOB WITH THIS NO CAP <3

    (But I really hope y'all can get the SSC conversion at least 100% net neutral.)

    You choosing to use crystals inefficiently on gear from the stores rather than energy refreshes is part of the reason that gear is a crunch.

    And what do you buy from the cantina store. Ship credits? You aren't counting any shards from there. That seems like a waste once you have a fleet. And if you have all legendary characters except jkl, then you likely don't need ship credits too badly. You get at least 5 a day from free energy tokens.

    And you may not get first in arena but you have to be pretty far down to only get 800 arena store tokens a day.

    That would put your calculation at about 13%. I came out with 7% (mostly due to energy refreshes on cantina and better arena ranking) so 10% is a good average.

    That's a good average for people in the top chunk of gameplay. People without the high end arena rewards, and people without the cantina fully farmed, aren't gonna balance out that easily. And if those players are being nerfed even after a 10% fix, then 10% wasn't the average and the fix isn't "as close as possible." You gotta be careful making generalizations that every end game player hits top 10 in arena. That's literally impossible unless every shard in the world operated with a payout discord. The vast majority of high end players still have to fight for their spots and many will never break top 10 for those rewards you're calculating "average" with. So it's not the average.

    I would say for the sake of erring on the side of net positive to be safe, the average should be seen as closer to 20% unless someone actually pulls data from any significant number of players to calculate otherwise.

    I don't think arena plays that big of role. You have to fall out of the top 200 before you get less than 600 tokens. You get 200 for free so that isn't another 10%. Maybe another 2%.

    Even still, you can't say another 2% like it's insignificant. In terms of a year's worth of farming, every 1% nerf is an added 3.65 days of farming. Arguing over 2% is saying that a whole week of farming is irrelevant. Adding onto that the already agreed upon 10% baseline, we're arguing over a month's worth of farming here. It isn't exactly a small enough issue to sneeze at another 2%, even if I disagree and think it's higher. Honestly we should call the number an agree to disagree situation and just debate how impactful any nerf higher than 10% is and why they should fix it fast.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    Let's break that down, because you ignored a key point. This assumes you have enough crystal income (from Arena prizes) to buy three refreshes of Cantina energy, on top of all the other farming you might do. Anyone not in the top 10 of arena can't do that and have any sort of crystals to spare on other farms.

    Also, it could very well just be my accounts, but on a weekly basis, around 50% of all my SSC comes from good Bronzium drops, because weekly is around 100k ally points if you're active. I'm almost guaranteed several full drops per week this way, which is thousands of SSC.

    I would put the cantina refreshes at the 2nd most important use of crystals after 3 regular 50 crystal refreshes. So 150 for regular energy and 300 for cantina. 450 crystals a day is hardly top of both arenas income.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    The problem is you're assuming endgame players and ignoing midgame players like me. I don't need most of the characters that benefit from this, and my SSC numbers are massively different than what you are positioning as endgame, meaning rosters like mine lose out on way more SSC than your numbers, and gain very little in exchange.

    But I think it's kind of besid the point by now. I think we're all pretty well agreed it needs to be addressed.

    This too. New players get a shard buff, endgame players can debate SSC until the cows come home, but what about mid game? The players that get nearly no benefit from double farming speeds, but are still hit with the Bronzium nerf? There's no net neutral involved in mid-game, they're gonna get hit with a ton of bricks when this update drops, it's a net negative all around.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    Let's break that down, because you ignored a key point. This assumes you have enough crystal income (from Arena prizes) to buy three refreshes of Cantina energy, on top of all the other farming you might do. Anyone not in the top 10 of arena can't do that and have any sort of crystals to spare on other farms.

    Also, it could very well just be my accounts, but on a weekly basis, around 50% of all my SSC comes from good Bronzium drops, because weekly is around 100k ally points if you're active. I'm almost guaranteed several full drops per week this way, which is thousands of SSC.

    I would put the cantina refreshes at the 2nd most important use of crystals after 3 regular 50 crystal refreshes. So 150 for regular energy and 300 for cantina. 450 crystals a day is hardly top of both arenas income.

    Okay but now you acknowledge to even scratch your numbers in calculations, you are *required* to spend 450 crystals a day and get access to 1100 arena currency daily. That is hard to call average, no matter who you are. That is a large group of very well-off people in the game economy, yeah. But not average by any means.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    The problem is you're assuming endgame players and ignoing midgame players like me. I don't need most of the characters that benefit from this, and my SSC numbers are massively different than what you are positioning as endgame, meaning rosters like mine lose out on way more SSC than your numbers, and gain very little in exchange.

    But I think it's kind of besid the point by now. I think we're all pretty well agreed it needs to be addressed.

    So at mid game, you can't use the cantina store, the arena store, add and the gw store for shard shop currency.

    And you can't spare 300 crystals a day for cantina refreshes when you will need the signal data anyway?

    Those were my assumptions.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    The problem is you're assuming endgame players and ignoing midgame players like me. I don't need most of the characters that benefit from this, and my SSC numbers are massively different than what you are positioning as endgame, meaning rosters like mine lose out on way more SSC than your numbers, and gain very little in exchange.

    But I think it's kind of besid the point by now. I think we're all pretty well agreed it needs to be addressed.

    So at mid game, you can't use the cantina store, the arena store, add and the gw store for shard shop currency.

    And you can't spare 300 crystals a day for cantina refreshes when you will need the signal data anyway?

    Those were my assumptions.

    Mid game players are expected to rake in 300+ crystals of expendable income or be considered "below average?" Do you know what average means?
  • Hornist wrote: »
    It is a nerd. I agree with you on that. And it does need addressed but some are acting like it is cutting their shard currency in half. That just isn't the case.

    I get shards from the following sources regularly on my main account.

    5-10 shards a day from cantina (depends on how many refreshes)

    15 from arena store a day

    15 from gw store (yes I do the ships but it converts roughly the same as 15 character shards)

    About 7 a day from gw drops

    And probably 10 a day on average from bronizums (it varies but let's say 8 of them are from full drops)

    So that's about 54 shards or so a day on average. The nerf will effectively take away 4 of those a day. That's an effective reduction in shard shop currency of about 7%. That still isn't good but it isn't the sky is falling disaster that will ruin.

    I'm going to nitpick here a bit. Because I feel like this isn't very accurate.

    1. Not everyone is done w/ every Cantina farm in the game to be using Cantina energy for Shard Farming.

    2. 15/Day from Arena is impossible as that would be 1200/Day Coins & 1100 is Max if you take 1st every single day of the year. Which also isn't relevant to the vast majority of the population.

    3. 7 from GW is possible but certainly not the "Average"

    4. ONLY 10/Day from Bronziums? I honestly don't think a day goes by were I don't get at least 1 of the 1* openings w/ several singles. I'd say the Bronzium averages over 10/day for sure & certainly over 10 a day is the average from Full Characters since I get a 25 a couple times a month & plenty of days with 2+ of the 1* openings.


    My own totals would probably be ...........
    0-Cantina
    15-GWar Store
    8-Squad
    4-Gwar Sim
    13+ Bronziums (11+ avg from Openings)

    So closer to 40/Day is what I'd call "normal" and being nerfed from 10-12 for 5-6 in value.
    Which is 15% income or so.
    No one wants 15% paycut..... ever.


    Agreed. This is MUCH closer to what my SSC shards are like. I am at a point where more than half the character shards I'm farming are Original Rate(less than a year old) so I gain literally nothing for over half my character farms and will lose anywhere from 10%-30% of my gear day to day. The only benefit for an account like mine specifically(3.78GP, all legendaries except JKL, TB farms, and no GLs,) is the double shards from cantina farms, of which I still need about ten characters.

    So that's cool, but I'm still losing a TON of gear, which matters infinite more for my farming timeline than shards do, and new accounts are going to run into the exact same issues. I can already farm shards for a marquee about twice as fast as gearing a team up to G13(I got Mando, Greef and Cara to 80/100 in the same time I got GAS to G13, and rex, fives and Echo to G12, STILL not relicd, and I won't be for a while.)

    That being said, I choose to slightly focus my energy on character shards more than gear, and I don't usually use refreshes(avg of 5/week on the high end,) instead buying gear in bulk, but the reason I do that is that it seems to be more efficient with my specific roster, so take what I said here with a grain of salt.

    Regardless, as far as gear goes, I ONLY lose with this update, and gear is already a much deeper bottleneck than shards, and that won't change because I can farm AR characters faster.

    Overall I REALLY love this change, but I'm am very disappointed that CG doesn't(at the moment) seem to be interested in making sure the change is either net neutral or net positive for gear, which frustrates me, being a mid-tier player. Don't take this as me saying this is a bad move, srsly, CG GOOD JOB WITH THIS NO CAP <3

    (But I really hope y'all can get the SSC conversion at least 100% net neutral.)

    You choosing to use crystals inefficiently on gear from the stores rather than energy refreshes is part of the reason that gear is a crunch.

    And what do you buy from the cantina store. Ship credits? You aren't counting any shards from there. That seems like a waste once you have a fleet. And if you have all legendary characters except jkl, then you likely don't need ship credits too badly. You get at least 5 a day from free energy tokens.

    And you may not get first in arena but you have to be pretty far down to only get 800 arena store tokens a day.

    That would put your calculation at about 13%. I came out with 7% (mostly due to energy refreshes on cantina and better arena ranking) so 10% is a good average.

    That's a good average for people in the top chunk of gameplay. People without the high end arena rewards, and people without the cantina fully farmed, aren't gonna balance out that easily. And if those players are being nerfed even after a 10% fix, then 10% wasn't the average and the fix isn't "as close as possible." You gotta be careful making generalizations that every end game player hits top 10 in arena. That's literally impossible unless every shard in the world operated with a payout discord. The vast majority of high end players still have to fight for their spots and many will never break top 10 for those rewards you're calculating "average" with. So it's not the average.

    I would say for the sake of erring on the side of net positive to be safe, the average should be seen as closer to 20% unless someone actually pulls data from any significant number of players to calculate otherwise.

    I don't think arena plays that big of role. You have to fall out of the top 200 before you get less than 600 tokens. You get 200 for free so that isn't another 10%. Maybe another 2%.

    Even still, you can't say another 2% like it's insignificant. In terms of a year's worth of farming, every 1% nerf is an added 3.65 days of farming. Arguing over 2% is saying that a whole week of farming is irrelevant. Adding onto that the already agreed upon 10% baseline, we're arguing over a month's worth of farming here. It isn't exactly a small enough issue to sneeze at another 2%, even if I disagree and think it's higher. Honestly we should call the number an agree to disagree situation and just debate how impactful any nerf higher than 10% is and why they should fix it fast.

    My 10% already accounts for an extra 3%. I calculated based on my situation and got 7%. I added 3% because I accounted for not everyone being top of arena.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    Let's break that down, because you ignored a key point. This assumes you have enough crystal income (from Arena prizes) to buy three refreshes of Cantina energy, on top of all the other farming you might do. Anyone not in the top 10 of arena can't do that and have any sort of crystals to spare on other farms.

    Also, it could very well just be my accounts, but on a weekly basis, around 50% of all my SSC comes from good Bronzium drops, because weekly is around 100k ally points if you're active. I'm almost guaranteed several full drops per week this way, which is thousands of SSC.

    I would put the cantina refreshes at the 2nd most important use of crystals after 3 regular 50 crystal refreshes. So 150 for regular energy and 300 for cantina. 450 crystals a day is hardly top of both arenas income.

    It kind of is though. My baseline I 60-75(arena) (0 from ship arena) maybe 50 from dailies and at best also 50 from GW. So at best consistent daily crystals are 175. Averaging out TW/TB usull looks like another 400/week or so, plus the(200???) From logins that's less than 300/day, which is about what I budget for. There is almost certainly some I missing, but that is close to what I average daily, and I am by no means a 'new' account.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    It is a nerd. I agree with you on that. And it does need addressed but some are acting like it is cutting their shard currency in half. That just isn't the case.

    I get shards from the following sources regularly on my main account.

    5-10 shards a day from cantina (depends on how many refreshes)

    15 from arena store a day

    15 from gw store (yes I do the ships but it converts roughly the same as 15 character shards)

    About 7 a day from gw drops

    And probably 10 a day on average from bronizums (it varies but let's say 8 of them are from full drops)

    So that's about 54 shards or so a day on average. The nerf will effectively take away 4 of those a day. That's an effective reduction in shard shop currency of about 7%. That still isn't good but it isn't the sky is falling disaster that will ruin.

    I'm going to nitpick here a bit. Because I feel like this isn't very accurate.

    1. Not everyone is done w/ every Cantina farm in the game to be using Cantina energy for Shard Farming.

    2. 15/Day from Arena is impossible as that would be 1200/Day Coins & 1100 is Max if you take 1st every single day of the year. Which also isn't relevant to the vast majority of the population.

    3. 7 from GW is possible but certainly not the "Average"

    4. ONLY 10/Day from Bronziums? I honestly don't think a day goes by were I don't get at least 1 of the 1* openings w/ several singles. I'd say the Bronzium averages over 10/day for sure & certainly over 10 a day is the average from Full Characters since I get a 25 a couple times a month & plenty of days with 2+ of the 1* openings.


    My own totals would probably be ...........
    0-Cantina
    15-GWar Store
    8-Squad
    4-Gwar Sim
    13+ Bronziums (11+ avg from Openings)

    So closer to 40/Day is what I'd call "normal" and being nerfed from 10-12 for 5-6 in value.
    Which is 15% income or so.
    No one wants 15% paycut..... ever.


    Agreed. This is MUCH closer to what my SSC shards are like. I am at a point where more than half the character shards I'm farming are Original Rate(less than a year old) so I gain literally nothing for over half my character farms and will lose anywhere from 10%-30% of my gear day to day. The only benefit for an account like mine specifically(3.78GP, all legendaries except JKL, TB farms, and no GLs,) is the double shards from cantina farms, of which I still need about ten characters.

    So that's cool, but I'm still losing a TON of gear, which matters infinite more for my farming timeline than shards do, and new accounts are going to run into the exact same issues. I can already farm shards for a marquee about twice as fast as gearing a team up to G13(I got Mando, Greef and Cara to 80/100 in the same time I got GAS to G13, and rex, fives and Echo to G12, STILL not relicd, and I won't be for a while.)

    That being said, I choose to slightly focus my energy on character shards more than gear, and I don't usually use refreshes(avg of 5/week on the high end,) instead buying gear in bulk, but the reason I do that is that it seems to be more efficient with my specific roster, so take what I said here with a grain of salt.

    Regardless, as far as gear goes, I ONLY lose with this update, and gear is already a much deeper bottleneck than shards, and that won't change because I can farm AR characters faster.

    Overall I REALLY love this change, but I'm am very disappointed that CG doesn't(at the moment) seem to be interested in making sure the change is either net neutral or net positive for gear, which frustrates me, being a mid-tier player. Don't take this as me saying this is a bad move, srsly, CG GOOD JOB WITH THIS NO CAP <3

    (But I really hope y'all can get the SSC conversion at least 100% net neutral.)

    You choosing to use crystals inefficiently on gear from the stores rather than energy refreshes is part of the reason that gear is a crunch.

    And what do you buy from the cantina store. Ship credits? You aren't counting any shards from there. That seems like a waste once you have a fleet. And if you have all legendary characters except jkl, then you likely don't need ship credits too badly. You get at least 5 a day from free energy tokens.

    And you may not get first in arena but you have to be pretty far down to only get 800 arena store tokens a day.

    That would put your calculation at about 13%. I came out with 7% (mostly due to energy refreshes on cantina and better arena ranking) so 10% is a good average.

    That's a good average for people in the top chunk of gameplay. People without the high end arena rewards, and people without the cantina fully farmed, aren't gonna balance out that easily. And if those players are being nerfed even after a 10% fix, then 10% wasn't the average and the fix isn't "as close as possible." You gotta be careful making generalizations that every end game player hits top 10 in arena. That's literally impossible unless every shard in the world operated with a payout discord. The vast majority of high end players still have to fight for their spots and many will never break top 10 for those rewards you're calculating "average" with. So it's not the average.

    I would say for the sake of erring on the side of net positive to be safe, the average should be seen as closer to 20% unless someone actually pulls data from any significant number of players to calculate otherwise.

    I don't think arena plays that big of role. You have to fall out of the top 200 before you get less than 600 tokens. You get 200 for free so that isn't another 10%. Maybe another 2%.

    Even still, you can't say another 2% like it's insignificant. In terms of a year's worth of farming, every 1% nerf is an added 3.65 days of farming. Arguing over 2% is saying that a whole week of farming is irrelevant. Adding onto that the already agreed upon 10% baseline, we're arguing over a month's worth of farming here. It isn't exactly a small enough issue to sneeze at another 2%, even if I disagree and think it's higher. Honestly we should call the number an agree to disagree situation and just debate how impactful any nerf higher than 10% is and why they should fix it fast.

    My 10% already accounts for an extra 3%. I calculated based on my situation and got 7%. I added 3% because I accounted for not everyone being top of arena.

    Yeah but your 7% was based on "your situation," which isn't exactly average. That's what I've been saying. That 3% adjustment doesn't make up for the fact that you ace your arena shard and spend almost 500 crystals a day just to eke out some extra SSC. That's not average.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    Let's break that down, because you ignored a key point. This assumes you have enough crystal income (from Arena prizes) to buy three refreshes of Cantina energy, on top of all the other farming you might do. Anyone not in the top 10 of arena can't do that and have any sort of crystals to spare on other farms.

    Also, it could very well just be my accounts, but on a weekly basis, around 50% of all my SSC comes from good Bronzium drops, because weekly is around 100k ally points if you're active. I'm almost guaranteed several full drops per week this way, which is thousands of SSC.

    I would put the cantina refreshes at the 2nd most important use of crystals after 3 regular 50 crystal refreshes. So 150 for regular energy and 300 for cantina. 450 crystals a day is hardly top of both arenas income.

    It kind of is though. My baseline I 60-75(arena) (0 from ship arena) maybe 50 from dailies and at best also 50 from GW. So at best consistent daily crystals are 175. Averaging out TW/TB usull looks like another 400/week or so, plus the(200???) From logins that's less than 300/day, which is about what I budget for. There is almost certainly some I missing, but that is close to what I average daily, and I am by no means a 'new' account.

    Sounds like you have a lack of crystals problem rather than the shard nerf problem. Top 50 in both arenas is not by any means unachievable and isn't even all that difficult. My alt account is already in the top 50 of fleet and top 100 in regular arena and it just hit level 85 a month ago ftp with no hyperdrive bundle. So yes, I'm assuming if you care about gearing characters quickly, you should be willing to try and do better at it.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    It is a nerd. I agree with you on that. And it does need addressed but some are acting like it is cutting their shard currency in half. That just isn't the case.

    I get shards from the following sources regularly on my main account.

    5-10 shards a day from cantina (depends on how many refreshes)

    15 from arena store a day

    15 from gw store (yes I do the ships but it converts roughly the same as 15 character shards)

    About 7 a day from gw drops

    And probably 10 a day on average from bronizums (it varies but let's say 8 of them are from full drops)

    So that's about 54 shards or so a day on average. The nerf will effectively take away 4 of those a day. That's an effective reduction in shard shop currency of about 7%. That still isn't good but it isn't the sky is falling disaster that will ruin.

    I'm going to nitpick here a bit. Because I feel like this isn't very accurate.

    1. Not everyone is done w/ every Cantina farm in the game to be using Cantina energy for Shard Farming.

    2. 15/Day from Arena is impossible as that would be 1200/Day Coins & 1100 is Max if you take 1st every single day of the year. Which also isn't relevant to the vast majority of the population.

    3. 7 from GW is possible but certainly not the "Average"

    4. ONLY 10/Day from Bronziums? I honestly don't think a day goes by were I don't get at least 1 of the 1* openings w/ several singles. I'd say the Bronzium averages over 10/day for sure & certainly over 10 a day is the average from Full Characters since I get a 25 a couple times a month & plenty of days with 2+ of the 1* openings.


    My own totals would probably be ...........
    0-Cantina
    15-GWar Store
    8-Squad
    4-Gwar Sim
    13+ Bronziums (11+ avg from Openings)

    So closer to 40/Day is what I'd call "normal" and being nerfed from 10-12 for 5-6 in value.
    Which is 15% income or so.
    No one wants 15% paycut..... ever.


    Agreed. This is MUCH closer to what my SSC shards are like. I am at a point where more than half the character shards I'm farming are Original Rate(less than a year old) so I gain literally nothing for over half my character farms and will lose anywhere from 10%-30% of my gear day to day. The only benefit for an account like mine specifically(3.78GP, all legendaries except JKL, TB farms, and no GLs,) is the double shards from cantina farms, of which I still need about ten characters.

    So that's cool, but I'm still losing a TON of gear, which matters infinite more for my farming timeline than shards do, and new accounts are going to run into the exact same issues. I can already farm shards for a marquee about twice as fast as gearing a team up to G13(I got Mando, Greef and Cara to 80/100 in the same time I got GAS to G13, and rex, fives and Echo to G12, STILL not relicd, and I won't be for a while.)

    That being said, I choose to slightly focus my energy on character shards more than gear, and I don't usually use refreshes(avg of 5/week on the high end,) instead buying gear in bulk, but the reason I do that is that it seems to be more efficient with my specific roster, so take what I said here with a grain of salt.

    Regardless, as far as gear goes, I ONLY lose with this update, and gear is already a much deeper bottleneck than shards, and that won't change because I can farm AR characters faster.

    Overall I REALLY love this change, but I'm am very disappointed that CG doesn't(at the moment) seem to be interested in making sure the change is either net neutral or net positive for gear, which frustrates me, being a mid-tier player. Don't take this as me saying this is a bad move, srsly, CG GOOD JOB WITH THIS NO CAP <3

    (But I really hope y'all can get the SSC conversion at least 100% net neutral.)

    You choosing to use crystals inefficiently on gear from the stores rather than energy refreshes is part of the reason that gear is a crunch.

    And what do you buy from the cantina store. Ship credits? You aren't counting any shards from there. That seems like a waste once you have a fleet. And if you have all legendary characters except jkl, then you likely don't need ship credits too badly. You get at least 5 a day from free energy tokens.

    And you may not get first in arena but you have to be pretty far down to only get 800 arena store tokens a day.

    That would put your calculation at about 13%. I came out with 7% (mostly due to energy refreshes on cantina and better arena ranking) so 10% is a good average.

    That's a good average for people in the top chunk of gameplay. People without the high end arena rewards, and people without the cantina fully farmed, aren't gonna balance out that easily. And if those players are being nerfed even after a 10% fix, then 10% wasn't the average and the fix isn't "as close as possible." You gotta be careful making generalizations that every end game player hits top 10 in arena. That's literally impossible unless every shard in the world operated with a payout discord. The vast majority of high end players still have to fight for their spots and many will never break top 10 for those rewards you're calculating "average" with. So it's not the average.

    I would say for the sake of erring on the side of net positive to be safe, the average should be seen as closer to 20% unless someone actually pulls data from any significant number of players to calculate otherwise.

    I don't think arena plays that big of role. You have to fall out of the top 200 before you get less than 600 tokens. You get 200 for free so that isn't another 10%. Maybe another 2%.

    Even still, you can't say another 2% like it's insignificant. In terms of a year's worth of farming, every 1% nerf is an added 3.65 days of farming. Arguing over 2% is saying that a whole week of farming is irrelevant. Adding onto that the already agreed upon 10% baseline, we're arguing over a month's worth of farming here. It isn't exactly a small enough issue to sneeze at another 2%, even if I disagree and think it's higher. Honestly we should call the number an agree to disagree situation and just debate how impactful any nerf higher than 10% is and why they should fix it fast.

    My 10% already accounts for an extra 3%. I calculated based on my situation and got 7%. I added 3% because I accounted for not everyone being top of arena.

    Yeah but your 7% was based on "your situation," which isn't exactly average. That's what I've been saying. That 3% adjustment doesn't make up for the fact that you ace your arena shard and spend almost 500 crystals a day just to eke out some extra SSC. That's not average.

    I don't spend crystals just for shard shop currency. I spend on cantina refreshes to farm signal data for relics. Or for new cantina characters. These are crystals I would spend anyway. And ones anyone with enough crystals should spend to be efficient anyway.

    But even if you throw that all out you're talking 15% not 50%. If they want to do 15% to account for inefficient players. Then I'm fine with that.

  • 1. The cantina store is one you finish early. And you get cantina currency from any cantina node. So at end game there is little to buy from there but shards. If I do refreshes (which is one of the better uses of crystals) I probably get at least 800 currency or enough for 10 shards. And considering if you don't do refreshes you get less ally points too, if you get max bronizums you also get max cantina currency.

    2. I do take 1st pretty much everyday so much closer to 3 than 2. Also I believe you get some from dailies too but even at 1100 a day that is still approximately 15 shards.

    3. I don't count but it's somewhere around 5 to 7 characters in there after I sim it and go to the shard shop.

    4. I haven't tracked this but you get about 10k a day in ally points at most. I've opened some where 10k gets you 80 shards or more but some where you get 2. I've been trying to keep up with my bronizums lately on two accounts and I get a full drop every other day or so. Mostly 10 but sometimes more. I had one day where I got 150 shards from 10k but that is very rare.

    1. You mentioned refreshes so I was thinking farming nodes. Which as I pointed out many people don't do since that means you've finished every character in the game from Cantina Nodes.
    I'll concede that you get some from the store some days but not every day if your not doing a lot of refreshes.
    Myself I do at least 10 a week between All Energy & Cantina Energy days but not all 21 of the 100's.

    2. You might be first but only 24 out of every 20K get that so less than 1% of the population.
    The dailies is in that 1100, its 900 for 1st + 200 for dailies.
    Top 200 only gets you 600+200=800 for 2 pulls a day. And I'd say even that is high as an "average"

    3. I believe the range is 3 to 9 but the average isn't 7 that's for sure.

    4. Agreed 80+ shards is rare, my point is I don't believe the average to be 10 or less.
    I almost always get at least 1x 10 per day with many days being 2-3 or a more rare 25.
    The average is probably closer to 15 a day between single shards & days with multiple 10s or a 25.

    Still sucks but still not the end of the world.

    And it is better to err on the side of a slight buff than a nerf.
    End of the world? No, not for a video game, but any nerf to gear is unacceptable, its the worst wall in this game so anything negative when they are talking about trying to improve it just shouldn't happen at all.

    Agreed on the buff, I think the best option is the suggestion to just change the price from 250 to 125 & chalk the extra baby gear we'd get for Relics as a freebie bonus to compensate for the extra clicks to open.
    (Yeah, I saw you hate the clicks, but I'm of the camp that its better than even a 1% loss of gear daily)
  • Hornist
    31 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    Let's break that down, because you ignored a key point. This assumes you have enough crystal income (from Arena prizes) to buy three refreshes of Cantina energy, on top of all the other farming you might do. Anyone not in the top 10 of arena can't do that and have any sort of crystals to spare on other farms.

    Also, it could very well just be my accounts, but on a weekly basis, around 50% of all my SSC comes from good Bronzium drops, because weekly is around 100k ally points if you're active. I'm almost guaranteed several full drops per week this way, which is thousands of SSC.

    I would put the cantina refreshes at the 2nd most important use of crystals after 3 regular 50 crystal refreshes. So 150 for regular energy and 300 for cantina. 450 crystals a day is hardly top of both arenas income.

    It kind of is though. My baseline I 60-75(arena) (0 from ship arena) maybe 50 from dailies and at best also 50 from GW. So at best consistent daily crystals are 175. Averaging out TW/TB usull looks like another 400/week or so, plus the(200???) From logins that's less than 300/day, which is about what I budget for. There is almost certainly some I missing, but that is close to what I average daily, and I am by no means a 'new' account.

    Sounds like you have a lack of crystals problem rather than the shard nerf problem. Top 50 in both arenas is not by any means unachievable and isn't even all that difficult. My alt account is already in the top 50 of fleet and top 100 in regular arena and it just hit level 85 a month ago ftp with no hyperdrive bundle. So yes, I'm assuming if you care about gearing characters quickly, you should be willing to try and do better at it.

    I am perfectly content with my cryal income, because it is actually basically impossible for me to get more. I won't deign to assume what your shard is like, but I cannot push past 60 in squad and ~90 in fleet. My roster can't do it, and not much will change that because my shard has full R7 GL teams from 60 up and full Relic nego teams 80 and up. For comparison, my highest team isn't even fully R7, and even if it was, it wouldn't push me into top 50, not to mention needing 70k GET2 for 7* nego still.

    If I dedicated a few months to R7 all the counters for GLs, maybe, but I dont have enough zetas, nor is my Wat 7* and on and on and on. Or I can aim for a GL in about the same time. Because I'm just enough behind the meta, top 50 is unachievable for me unless I scrap this account and start over. I'm not the only one in this situation either.

    To be clear, I'm not complaining about that, I'm fine with it, I'm just correcting assumptions. Not everyone can get top 50, that is literally not possible because it it designed to be that way, so assuming everyone can is super misguided, even factoring in organization with payouts etc, which not everyone has.

    Edit: If I did in fact gear teams as much and as fast as I could, I would have gotten JKR/DR 6 months later, Malak 9 months later and GS for another year because of how much more difficult gear/relic is. Which means I might have a full R7 JKR or maybe even DR/Malak team now, instead of mixed relics and g12s, but I still wouldn't be able to climb higher than I am now because of how arena works in my shard.
  • I would put the cantina refreshes at the 2nd most important use of crystals after 3 regular 50 crystal refreshes. So 150 for regular energy and 300 for cantina. 450 crystals a day is hardly top of both arenas income.

    Lets be real here.

    900 is #1 in both (500+400)

    Now lets talk about the majority of the population that doesn't hit anywhere close to that.

    I don't mean the people out at 1000 in squad & 200 in fleet.

    I've gotten as high as 13th in Squad in my 18 months & taken #1 in fleet more times than I can count.
    That is what 475 crystals?

    But, those aren't what I get today with all the 7* Negotiators out there & G-Legends.

    Today is more like 110 in Squad & 15th in fleet. That's only 125-150 crystals.

    So congratulations on your #1 finishes, but, its not even close to the "average".


    I do 3 Gold Energy Refreshes a day for 150, but, after that, its about what is "on special" for guild tokens to get some extra income.

    Cantina/Red is, IMHO, not even the 2nd best use of energy like you said, doing Mod refreshes has got to be the best use of energy out there after Gold IMO since a great Mod does more for you that nearly any single piece of gear in the game.

    For the 300 crystals Cantina costs I'd rather do both Mod & Fleet refreshes for the G12 pieces & the Mods/Materials. But hey, that's me.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    It is a nerd. I agree with you on that. And it does need addressed but some are acting like it is cutting their shard currency in half. That just isn't the case.

    I get shards from the following sources regularly on my main account.

    5-10 shards a day from cantina (depends on how many refreshes)

    15 from arena store a day

    15 from gw store (yes I do the ships but it converts roughly the same as 15 character shards)

    About 7 a day from gw drops

    And probably 10 a day on average from bronizums (it varies but let's say 8 of them are from full drops)

    So that's about 54 shards or so a day on average. The nerf will effectively take away 4 of those a day. That's an effective reduction in shard shop currency of about 7%. That still isn't good but it isn't the sky is falling disaster that will ruin.

    I'm going to nitpick here a bit. Because I feel like this isn't very accurate.

    1. Not everyone is done w/ every Cantina farm in the game to be using Cantina energy for Shard Farming.

    2. 15/Day from Arena is impossible as that would be 1200/Day Coins & 1100 is Max if you take 1st every single day of the year. Which also isn't relevant to the vast majority of the population.

    3. 7 from GW is possible but certainly not the "Average"

    4. ONLY 10/Day from Bronziums? I honestly don't think a day goes by were I don't get at least 1 of the 1* openings w/ several singles. I'd say the Bronzium averages over 10/day for sure & certainly over 10 a day is the average from Full Characters since I get a 25 a couple times a month & plenty of days with 2+ of the 1* openings.


    My own totals would probably be ...........
    0-Cantina
    15-GWar Store
    8-Squad
    4-Gwar Sim
    13+ Bronziums (11+ avg from Openings)

    So closer to 40/Day is what I'd call "normal" and being nerfed from 10-12 for 5-6 in value.
    Which is 15% income or so.
    No one wants 15% paycut..... ever.


    Agreed. This is MUCH closer to what my SSC shards are like. I am at a point where more than half the character shards I'm farming are Original Rate(less than a year old) so I gain literally nothing for over half my character farms and will lose anywhere from 10%-30% of my gear day to day. The only benefit for an account like mine specifically(3.78GP, all legendaries except JKL, TB farms, and no GLs,) is the double shards from cantina farms, of which I still need about ten characters.

    So that's cool, but I'm still losing a TON of gear, which matters infinite more for my farming timeline than shards do, and new accounts are going to run into the exact same issues. I can already farm shards for a marquee about twice as fast as gearing a team up to G13(I got Mando, Greef and Cara to 80/100 in the same time I got GAS to G13, and rex, fives and Echo to G12, STILL not relicd, and I won't be for a while.)

    That being said, I choose to slightly focus my energy on character shards more than gear, and I don't usually use refreshes(avg of 5/week on the high end,) instead buying gear in bulk, but the reason I do that is that it seems to be more efficient with my specific roster, so take what I said here with a grain of salt.

    Regardless, as far as gear goes, I ONLY lose with this update, and gear is already a much deeper bottleneck than shards, and that won't change because I can farm AR characters faster.

    Overall I REALLY love this change, but I'm am very disappointed that CG doesn't(at the moment) seem to be interested in making sure the change is either net neutral or net positive for gear, which frustrates me, being a mid-tier player. Don't take this as me saying this is a bad move, srsly, CG GOOD JOB WITH THIS NO CAP <3

    (But I really hope y'all can get the SSC conversion at least 100% net neutral.)

    You choosing to use crystals inefficiently on gear from the stores rather than energy refreshes is part of the reason that gear is a crunch.

    And what do you buy from the cantina store. Ship credits? You aren't counting any shards from there. That seems like a waste once you have a fleet. And if you have all legendary characters except jkl, then you likely don't need ship credits too badly. You get at least 5 a day from free energy tokens.

    And you may not get first in arena but you have to be pretty far down to only get 800 arena store tokens a day.

    That would put your calculation at about 13%. I came out with 7% (mostly due to energy refreshes on cantina and better arena ranking) so 10% is a good average.

    That's a good average for people in the top chunk of gameplay. People without the high end arena rewards, and people without the cantina fully farmed, aren't gonna balance out that easily. And if those players are being nerfed even after a 10% fix, then 10% wasn't the average and the fix isn't "as close as possible." You gotta be careful making generalizations that every end game player hits top 10 in arena. That's literally impossible unless every shard in the world operated with a payout discord. The vast majority of high end players still have to fight for their spots and many will never break top 10 for those rewards you're calculating "average" with. So it's not the average.

    I would say for the sake of erring on the side of net positive to be safe, the average should be seen as closer to 20% unless someone actually pulls data from any significant number of players to calculate otherwise.

    I don't think arena plays that big of role. You have to fall out of the top 200 before you get less than 600 tokens. You get 200 for free so that isn't another 10%. Maybe another 2%.

    Even still, you can't say another 2% like it's insignificant. In terms of a year's worth of farming, every 1% nerf is an added 3.65 days of farming. Arguing over 2% is saying that a whole week of farming is irrelevant. Adding onto that the already agreed upon 10% baseline, we're arguing over a month's worth of farming here. It isn't exactly a small enough issue to sneeze at another 2%, even if I disagree and think it's higher. Honestly we should call the number an agree to disagree situation and just debate how impactful any nerf higher than 10% is and why they should fix it fast.

    My 10% already accounts for an extra 3%. I calculated based on my situation and got 7%. I added 3% because I accounted for not everyone being top of arena.

    Yeah but your 7% was based on "your situation," which isn't exactly average. That's what I've been saying. That 3% adjustment doesn't make up for the fact that you ace your arena shard and spend almost 500 crystals a day just to eke out some extra SSC. That's not average.

    I don't spend crystals just for shard shop currency. I spend on cantina refreshes to farm signal data for relics. Or for new cantina characters. These are crystals I would spend anyway. And ones anyone with enough crystals should spend to be efficient anyway.

    But even if you throw that all out you're talking 15% not 50%. If they want to do 15% to account for inefficient players. Then I'm fine with that.

    Okay then disregarding completely how we achieve the numbers, let's settle on a rough guesstimate that they have around a 15% nerf potentially incoming. That, in a year's worth of farming, amounts to adding almost 55 days to the farming. Almost two extra months. It needs corrected if we can all agree it at least comes close to averaging at a 15% nerf, because increasing farming time by two months is definitely not as close to net neutral as they can get.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    The problem is you're assuming endgame players and ignoing midgame players like me. I don't need most of the characters that benefit from this, and my SSC numbers are massively different than what you are positioning as endgame, meaning rosters like mine lose out on way more SSC than your numbers, and gain very little in exchange.

    But I think it's kind of besid the point by now. I think we're all pretty well agreed it needs to be addressed.

    So at mid game, you can't use the cantina store, the arena store, add and the gw store for shard shop currency.

    And you can't spare 300 crystals a day for cantina refreshes when you will need the signal data anyway?

    Those were my assumptions.

    Cantina store, like I said earlier, nets me 5 shards/2 days unless I'm refreshing cantina energy, which on average I get one of per day at best, and I'd rather spend that directly on gear as it is in fact more efficient when gear is a MUCH deeper bottleneck for me.

    I did factor in GW shop in those maths, so yes I do use them

    My arena store is 7.5 shards per day, and I included that in the first set of numbers. I am by no means an inefficient player, and I am frustrated you're straw-man-ing. I have increased my GP, my overall contribution to guild events, my arena rank and roster far faster than the others I my current guild and the three previous ones I was a part of, while also securing every legendary pretty darn quickly for f2p, so I think I'm doing pretty well as far as efficiency is concerned.

    You have a new alt account(Early game) and a top 10 account(Late game,) unless I am reading incorrectly, I apologise and recind this if so, but neither of your accounts seem(as I can't know for sure) to have even remotely similar potential/conditions as mine. I'm not arguing your numbers are wrong for your accounts, but they are definitely wrong for mine, and it isn't because I'm inefficient.

    I also happen to know a few people that do have accounts like mine, so it isn't an isolated edge case either. That is why I argu that the SSC/Bronziums nerf is more significant to accounts similar to mine(which I think is actually pretty close to average/60%+) than your accounts situation implies.

    I apologise if I ruffled feathers, that was not my intent. I still think we should forget the numbers, agree it should be looked at, and give each other high fives.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    The problem is you're assuming endgame players and ignoing midgame players like me. I don't need most of the characters that benefit from this, and my SSC numbers are massively different than what you are positioning as endgame, meaning rosters like mine lose out on way more SSC than your numbers, and gain very little in exchange.

    But I think it's kind of besid the point by now. I think we're all pretty well agreed it needs to be addressed.

    So at mid game, you can't use the cantina store, the arena store, add and the gw store for shard shop currency.

    And you can't spare 300 crystals a day for cantina refreshes when you will need the signal data anyway?

    Those were my assumptions.

    Cantina store, like I said earlier, nets me 5 shards/2 days unless I'm refreshing cantina energy, which on average I get one of per day at best, and I'd rather spend that directly on gear as it is in fact more efficient when gear is a MUCH deeper bottleneck for me.

    I did factor in GW shop in those maths, so yes I do use them

    My arena store is 7.5 shards per day, and I included that in the first set of numbers. I am by no means an inefficient player, and I am frustrated you're straw-man-ing. I have increased my GP, my overall contribution to guild events, my arena rank and roster far faster than the others I my current guild and the three previous ones I was a part of, while also securing every legendary pretty darn quickly for f2p, so I think I'm doing pretty well as far as efficiency is concerned.

    You have a new alt account(Early game) and a top 10 account(Late game,) unless I am reading incorrectly, I apologise and recind this if so, but neither of your accounts seem(as I can't know for sure) to have even remotely similar potential/conditions as mine. I'm not arguing your numbers are wrong for your accounts, but they are definitely wrong for mine, and it isn't because I'm inefficient.

    I also happen to know a few people that do have accounts like mine, so it isn't an isolated edge case either. That is why I argu that the SSC/Bronziums nerf is more significant to accounts similar to mine(which I think is actually pretty close to average/60%+) than your accounts situation implies.

    I apologise if I ruffled feathers, that was not my intent. I still think we should forget the numbers, agree it should be looked at, and give each other high fives.

    I agree that we should all high five and makeup, but we absolutely should try to find the best average we can. Otherwise, we'll never know if a fix is adequately "close to net neutral" or not. If they lower the Shard Shop increase to 190% to account for a 10% nerf, but the average in actuality is closer to 20 or 30%, then the fix only helps those that fell into that 10% window. Everyone else gets bumped closer to net neutral, but still falls quite short. This is what it means when I say it would be better to err on the side of net positive, because until someone does like, a large scale case study, we can only speculate on the numbers. But either way we all agree it's AT LEAST a double digit percentage nerf.
  • Konju wrote: »
    Gouj4 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    CG_Doja_Fett Can you please also tell the devs about the awful rewards in HAAT and HSTR?
    More importantly, why there is so much crossover on rewards from HAAT into HSTR. There are so many ways to fix the gear crunch but it’s continually ignored
    If They don't believe something exists are They really continually ignoring it?

    From Thier perspective there may not be a gear crunch, and it may be right where They want it to be.

    Except Cyanides came out last year and said fixes were needed for gear economy and even asked us as much what we would see as relief to the gear crunch if their methods weren’t enough. That was literally a year ago. So yes. Gear crunch acknowledged and ignored.
    Gouj4 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    CG_Doja_Fett Can you please also tell the devs about the awful rewards in HAAT and HSTR?
    More importantly, why there is so much crossover on rewards from HAAT into HSTR. There are so many ways to fix the gear crunch but it’s continually ignored
    If They don't believe something exists are They really continually ignoring it?

    From Thier perspective there may not be a gear crunch, and it may be right where They want it to be.

    Except they’ve stated that they know gear is one of the things they need to tackle

    Yet as many have stated a simple thing with this change to shards would have been to leave the shard shop alone to ease the gear crunch, however they are not doing this, instead they are doing everything they can to make it stay the same or worse on the gear front.

    I’m aware of that but your point was that they didn’t know it exists which they clearly do. Just because they’re not doing anything to address it now doesn’t mean they won’t down the line once they’ve seen whatever they need to see from this shard update.

    You are right. They do know and have known that the gear crunch is an aspect the player base has been frustrated with for quite some time. I think scuba was saying that they created the gear crunch to be as it is, therefore they do not view it as a real issue. I think most people who have played this game for over a year or two see the actions of the devs toward the players’ acquisition of gear (the biggest crunch in the game) as a net negative to the player base. They “say” they want to “tackle” the gear crunch issue. Their “solutions” for the gear crunch so far:

    1. Introduce Kyrotech (another gear crunch), “alleviated” by obtaining 3ish salvage daily when single characters need 100s
    2. Increase gear levels and relic levels (another crunch)
    3. Introduced Galactic Challenges (“requiring” relic characters to get gear rewards for which there is a crunch)
    4. Add new tiers to Assault Battles (also “requiring” relic characters in order to obtain relic materials)
    5. Offer cheaper gear packs ($5 sounds really nice when fighting for gear for weeks and months), good way to make money for CG.
    6. Nerf Bronzium character drops, reducing shard shop currency.

    Don’t get me wrong, I hope you are right and they do something to at least keep the gear crunch as is, but previous actions speak otherwise. Intentionality of the gear crunch by the devs, in my view, is obvious. I do not expect any large positive changes when it comes to gear acquisition, especially when gear purchases make up a big portion of their profits...by design. My worry is that even if/when they do give us some gear benefits down the road, it will be in a similar form as this shard benefit now, creating problems elsewhere in the game.

    All I hope for is a net neutral outcome from this Bronzium pack issue when it comes to shard shop currency. I do not expect anything to alleviate the gear crunch, but my guess is that it will come in the form of rewards from a new “impossible to complete for a few more months/year” type of content. Oh wait...new Rancor Tiers are on the way, aren’t they?

    You are only mentioning the ones that fit your criteria.

    You missed

    1. Addition of new tb which reward a significant amount of gear.

    2. Addition of gac (with gear rewards)

    So I agree that they do make changes that nerf gear, they also add content that reduces the crunch.

    I don't know if they think the crunch will need tightening or loosening after the shard changes but they likely have a target and will change it to meet it.

    I'm hoping the target is to make getting to g12 much easier but that may or may not be the case.

    Fair enough. GAC rewards do help. No argument there. The new TBs do reward better for those guilds that have made it past some of the gear crunches as well. Certainly.

    So if we add these items to my list and I completely agree to your point that the new TBs are only beneficial (which can be debated as negatives to the new TBs do exist), then the results are still showing significantly more attention being paid by the devs to increase the gear crunch than decrease it.

    I don’t want to believe that this was intentional. I hope this was just an oversight. I only ask for net neutral for full character pulls from bronzium cards, though I think more should and likely will be done to alleviate gear crunches.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    The problem is you're assuming endgame players and ignoing midgame players like me. I don't need most of the characters that benefit from this, and my SSC numbers are massively different than what you are positioning as endgame, meaning rosters like mine lose out on way more SSC than your numbers, and gain very little in exchange.

    But I think it's kind of besid the point by now. I think we're all pretty well agreed it needs to be addressed.

    So at mid game, you can't use the cantina store, the arena store, add and the gw store for shard shop currency.

    And you can't spare 300 crystals a day for cantina refreshes when you will need the signal data anyway?

    Those were my assumptions.

    Cantina store, like I said earlier, nets me 5 shards/2 days unless I'm refreshing cantina energy, which on average I get one of per day at best, and I'd rather spend that directly on gear as it is in fact more efficient when gear is a MUCH deeper bottleneck for me.

    I did factor in GW shop in those maths, so yes I do use them

    My arena store is 7.5 shards per day, and I included that in the first set of numbers. I am by no means an inefficient player, and I am frustrated you're straw-man-ing. I have increased my GP, my overall contribution to guild events, my arena rank and roster far faster than the others I my current guild and the three previous ones I was a part of, while also securing every legendary pretty darn quickly for f2p, so I think I'm doing pretty well as far as efficiency is concerned.

    You have a new alt account(Early game) and a top 10 account(Late game,) unless I am reading incorrectly, I apologise and recind this if so, but neither of your accounts seem(as I can't know for sure) to have even remotely similar potential/conditions as mine. I'm not arguing your numbers are wrong for your accounts, but they are definitely wrong for mine, and it isn't because I'm inefficient.

    I also happen to know a few people that do have accounts like mine, so it isn't an isolated edge case either. That is why I argu that the SSC/Bronziums nerf is more significant to accounts similar to mine(which I think is actually pretty close to average/60%+) than your accounts situation implies.

    I apologise if I ruffled feathers, that was not my intent. I still think we should forget the numbers, agree it should be looked at, and give each other high fives.

    I agree that we should all high five and makeup, but we absolutely should try to find the best average we can. Otherwise, we'll never know if a fix is adequately "close to net neutral" or not. If they lower the Shard Shop increase to 190% to account for a 10% nerf, but the average in actuality is closer to 20 or 30%, then the fix only helps those that fell into that 10% window. Everyone else gets bumped closer to net neutral, but still falls quite short. This is what it means when I say it would be better to err on the side of net positive, because until someone does like, a large scale case study, we can only speculate on the numbers. But either way we all agree it's AT LEAST a double digit percentage nerf.

    I agree to a point. What we really should do is find the maximum impact the nerf *could* have on an account with perfectly non-ideal conditions, and change things based on that. That is how businesses usually operate with costs and internal changes, and sometimes changes that affect customers(if they're low-impacting on budget.)

    I don't think CG will do this because it will skew the total net change squarely into positive(if you just straight double bronziums however it's done,) but that is the best way to handle it. Plan for the worst case scenario, but hope for the best.

    In this case, the best fix all around means making sure there is exactly 0 reduction in SSC across the board, while not impacting gear rates at all, which would mean just doubling bronzium obtained shards' SSC conversion, but not their drop rate, as that has the lowest impact on the rest of the game, but a perfectly net neutral SSC change. However this is the thing that would take BY FAR the most work to implement, so it likely will also not happen.

    If I were planning this change, I would have a headache because there isn't a good solution.

    My personal favorite, would be to entirely remove the inflation on SSC entirely, because it has at worst(for economy stability purposes,) a 100% net positive gain on gear rates from only SSC (and GG shards, I guess) which is some percentage of overall gear aquisition (I'm guessing 20-60% based on my experience alone?) And we have seen that anything short of this will in fact have a negative impact on *some* players

    Which means a market change of up to about 20% at pretty conservative estimates.

    A 5-20% reduction in gear bottleneck(depending on your roster,) overall might be more than they're ok with, so that may be an unacceptable solution as far as CG is concerned, but anything short of this will either 1) affect some players negatively, (varies wildly, probly very bad PR,) or 2) be much more resource intensive to implement.

    So they will have to chose between those two and easing the gear crunch a bit.

    My opinion aside, those are the likely options they're facing.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    Let's break that down, because you ignored a key point. This assumes you have enough crystal income (from Arena prizes) to buy three refreshes of Cantina energy, on top of all the other farming you might do. Anyone not in the top 10 of arena can't do that and have any sort of crystals to spare on other farms.

    Also, it could very well just be my accounts, but on a weekly basis, around 50% of all my SSC comes from good Bronzium drops, because weekly is around 100k ally points if you're active. I'm almost guaranteed several full drops per week this way, which is thousands of SSC.

    I would put the cantina refreshes at the 2nd most important use of crystals after 3 regular 50 crystal refreshes. So 150 for regular energy and 300 for cantina. 450 crystals a day is hardly top of both arenas income.

    It kind of is though. My baseline I 60-75(arena) (0 from ship arena) maybe 50 from dailies and at best also 50 from GW. So at best consistent daily crystals are 175. Averaging out TW/TB usull looks like another 400/week or so, plus the(200???) From logins that's less than 300/day, which is about what I budget for. There is almost certainly some I missing, but that is close to what I average daily, and I am by no means a 'new' account.

    Sounds like you have a lack of crystals problem rather than the shard nerf problem. Top 50 in both arenas is not by any means unachievable and isn't even all that difficult. My alt account is already in the top 50 of fleet and top 100 in regular arena and it just hit level 85 a month ago ftp with no hyperdrive bundle. So yes, I'm assuming if you care about gearing characters quickly, you should be willing to try and do better at it.

    I am perfectly content with my cryal income, because it is actually basically impossible for me to get more. I won't deign to assume what your shard is like, but I cannot push past 60 in squad and ~90 in fleet. My roster can't do it, and not much will change that because my shard has full R7 GL teams from 60 up and full Relic nego teams 80 and up. For comparison, my highest team isn't even fully R7, and even if it was, it wouldn't push me into top 50, not to mention needing 70k GET2 for 7* nego still.

    If I dedicated a few months to R7 all the counters for GLs, maybe, but I dont have enough zetas, nor is my Wat 7* and on and on and on. Or I can aim for a GL in about the same time. Because I'm just enough behind the meta, top 50 is unachievable for me unless I scrap this account and start over. I'm not the only one in this situation either.

    To be clear, I'm not complaining about that, I'm fine with it, I'm just correcting assumptions. Not everyone can get top 50, that is literally not possible because it it designed to be that way, so assuming everyone can is super misguided, even factoring in organization with payouts etc, which not everyone has.

    Edit: If I did in fact gear teams as much and as fast as I could, I would have gotten JKR/DR 6 months later, Malak 9 months later and GS for another year because of how much more difficult gear/relic is. Which means I might have a full R7 JKR or maybe even DR/Malak team now, instead of mixed relics and g12s, but I still wouldn't be able to climb higher than I am now because of how arena works in my shard.

    A couple of things. You say impossible to beat relic GLs. Not true at all. I have been climbing to 1st for months and only unlocked GL palps this morning. And you don't need a 7 star wat. A 5 or 6 star g11 on works just fine for Rey, Kylo, and jml counters.

    The vader counter for rey/thrawn counter for kylo/darth revan wat counter with wat counter for jml all only require about 10 characters in total most of which aren't new or gated in any way.

    You not having them is on you.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    It is a nerd. I agree with you on that. And it does need addressed but some are acting like it is cutting their shard currency in half. That just isn't the case.

    I get shards from the following sources regularly on my main account.

    5-10 shards a day from cantina (depends on how many refreshes)

    15 from arena store a day

    15 from gw store (yes I do the ships but it converts roughly the same as 15 character shards)

    About 7 a day from gw drops

    And probably 10 a day on average from bronizums (it varies but let's say 8 of them are from full drops)

    So that's about 54 shards or so a day on average. The nerf will effectively take away 4 of those a day. That's an effective reduction in shard shop currency of about 7%. That still isn't good but it isn't the sky is falling disaster that will ruin.

    I'm going to nitpick here a bit. Because I feel like this isn't very accurate.

    1. Not everyone is done w/ every Cantina farm in the game to be using Cantina energy for Shard Farming.

    2. 15/Day from Arena is impossible as that would be 1200/Day Coins & 1100 is Max if you take 1st every single day of the year. Which also isn't relevant to the vast majority of the population.

    3. 7 from GW is possible but certainly not the "Average"

    4. ONLY 10/Day from Bronziums? I honestly don't think a day goes by were I don't get at least 1 of the 1* openings w/ several singles. I'd say the Bronzium averages over 10/day for sure & certainly over 10 a day is the average from Full Characters since I get a 25 a couple times a month & plenty of days with 2+ of the 1* openings.


    My own totals would probably be ...........
    0-Cantina
    15-GWar Store
    8-Squad
    4-Gwar Sim
    13+ Bronziums (11+ avg from Openings)

    So closer to 40/Day is what I'd call "normal" and being nerfed from 10-12 for 5-6 in value.
    Which is 15% income or so.
    No one wants 15% paycut..... ever.


    Agreed. This is MUCH closer to what my SSC shards are like. I am at a point where more than half the character shards I'm farming are Original Rate(less than a year old) so I gain literally nothing for over half my character farms and will lose anywhere from 10%-30% of my gear day to day. The only benefit for an account like mine specifically(3.78GP, all legendaries except JKL, TB farms, and no GLs,) is the double shards from cantina farms, of which I still need about ten characters.

    So that's cool, but I'm still losing a TON of gear, which matters infinite more for my farming timeline than shards do, and new accounts are going to run into the exact same issues. I can already farm shards for a marquee about twice as fast as gearing a team up to G13(I got Mando, Greef and Cara to 80/100 in the same time I got GAS to G13, and rex, fives and Echo to G12, STILL not relicd, and I won't be for a while.)

    That being said, I choose to slightly focus my energy on character shards more than gear, and I don't usually use refreshes(avg of 5/week on the high end,) instead buying gear in bulk, but the reason I do that is that it seems to be more efficient with my specific roster, so take what I said here with a grain of salt.

    Regardless, as far as gear goes, I ONLY lose with this update, and gear is already a much deeper bottleneck than shards, and that won't change because I can farm AR characters faster.

    Overall I REALLY love this change, but I'm am very disappointed that CG doesn't(at the moment) seem to be interested in making sure the change is either net neutral or net positive for gear, which frustrates me, being a mid-tier player. Don't take this as me saying this is a bad move, srsly, CG GOOD JOB WITH THIS NO CAP <3

    (But I really hope y'all can get the SSC conversion at least 100% net neutral.)

    You choosing to use crystals inefficiently on gear from the stores rather than energy refreshes is part of the reason that gear is a crunch.

    And what do you buy from the cantina store. Ship credits? You aren't counting any shards from there. That seems like a waste once you have a fleet. And if you have all legendary characters except jkl, then you likely don't need ship credits too badly. You get at least 5 a day from free energy tokens.

    And you may not get first in arena but you have to be pretty far down to only get 800 arena store tokens a day.

    That would put your calculation at about 13%. I came out with 7% (mostly due to energy refreshes on cantina and better arena ranking) so 10% is a good average.

    That's a good average for people in the top chunk of gameplay. People without the high end arena rewards, and people without the cantina fully farmed, aren't gonna balance out that easily. And if those players are being nerfed even after a 10% fix, then 10% wasn't the average and the fix isn't "as close as possible." You gotta be careful making generalizations that every end game player hits top 10 in arena. That's literally impossible unless every shard in the world operated with a payout discord. The vast majority of high end players still have to fight for their spots and many will never break top 10 for those rewards you're calculating "average" with. So it's not the average.

    I would say for the sake of erring on the side of net positive to be safe, the average should be seen as closer to 20% unless someone actually pulls data from any significant number of players to calculate otherwise.

    I don't think arena plays that big of role. You have to fall out of the top 200 before you get less than 600 tokens. You get 200 for free so that isn't another 10%. Maybe another 2%.

    Even still, you can't say another 2% like it's insignificant. In terms of a year's worth of farming, every 1% nerf is an added 3.65 days of farming. Arguing over 2% is saying that a whole week of farming is irrelevant. Adding onto that the already agreed upon 10% baseline, we're arguing over a month's worth of farming here. It isn't exactly a small enough issue to sneeze at another 2%, even if I disagree and think it's higher. Honestly we should call the number an agree to disagree situation and just debate how impactful any nerf higher than 10% is and why they should fix it fast.

    My 10% already accounts for an extra 3%. I calculated based on my situation and got 7%. I added 3% because I accounted for not everyone being top of arena.

    Yeah but your 7% was based on "your situation," which isn't exactly average. That's what I've been saying. That 3% adjustment doesn't make up for the fact that you ace your arena shard and spend almost 500 crystals a day just to eke out some extra SSC. That's not average.

    I don't spend crystals just for shard shop currency. I spend on cantina refreshes to farm signal data for relics. Or for new cantina characters. These are crystals I would spend anyway. And ones anyone with enough crystals should spend to be efficient anyway.

    But even if you throw that all out you're talking 15% not 50%. If they want to do 15% to account for inefficient players. Then I'm fine with that.

    Okay then disregarding completely how we achieve the numbers, let's settle on a rough guesstimate that they have around a 15% nerf potentially incoming. That, in a year's worth of farming, amounts to adding almost 55 days to the farming. Almost two extra months. It needs corrected if we can all agree it at least comes close to averaging at a 15% nerf, because increasing farming time by two months is definitely not as close to net neutral as they can get.

    Oh I'm pretty sure we all agree it's not neutral. But if we all agree there's nothing more to say so no point in posting.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    The problem is you're assuming endgame players and ignoing midgame players like me. I don't need most of the characters that benefit from this, and my SSC numbers are massively different than what you are positioning as endgame, meaning rosters like mine lose out on way more SSC than your numbers, and gain very little in exchange.

    But I think it's kind of besid the point by now. I think we're all pretty well agreed it needs to be addressed.

    So at mid game, you can't use the cantina store, the arena store, add and the gw store for shard shop currency.

    And you can't spare 300 crystals a day for cantina refreshes when you will need the signal data anyway?

    Those were my assumptions.

    Cantina store, like I said earlier, nets me 5 shards/2 days unless I'm refreshing cantina energy, which on average I get one of per day at best, and I'd rather spend that directly on gear as it is in fact more efficient when gear is a MUCH deeper bottleneck for me.

    I did factor in GW shop in those maths, so yes I do use them

    My arena store is 7.5 shards per day, and I included that in the first set of numbers. I am by no means an inefficient player, and I am frustrated you're straw-man-ing. I have increased my GP, my overall contribution to guild events, my arena rank and roster far faster than the others I my current guild and the three previous ones I was a part of, while also securing every legendary pretty darn quickly for f2p, so I think I'm doing pretty well as far as efficiency is concerned.

    You have a new alt account(Early game) and a top 10 account(Late game,) unless I am reading incorrectly, I apologise and recind this if so, but neither of your accounts seem(as I can't know for sure) to have even remotely similar potential/conditions as mine. I'm not arguing your numbers are wrong for your accounts, but they are definitely wrong for mine, and it isn't because I'm inefficient.

    I also happen to know a few people that do have accounts like mine, so it isn't an isolated edge case either. That is why I argu that the SSC/Bronziums nerf is more significant to accounts similar to mine(which I think is actually pretty close to average/60%+) than your accounts situation implies.

    I apologise if I ruffled feathers, that was not my intent. I still think we should forget the numbers, agree it should be looked at, and give each other high fives.

    I believe not focusing on arena is inefficient. If you don't want to do that then fine but you miss out on a lot of crystals and refreshes that way.

    As far as buying gear with crystals vs energy refreshes, crystals in the store is often quicker but the energy refreshes are more efficient long term.

    I typically try to keep to the efficient forms of farming as much as possible (unless I deem a farm to potentially be important enough to warrant speed over time. An example is I used a ton of Crystals to fast farm piett for see since having a GL sooner makes holding in arena easier and will save me Crystals later. But once I'm done with papa palps I will focus crystals only on energy since it's more efficient mathematically and I'm not in a hurry on my other farms.

    So by my definition if you are spending crystals to buy gear rather than energy for toons that will not lead to more crystal income, that is inefficient. It's fine if you want to play like that but it isn't all that efficient.
  • Hornist wrote: »
    Hornist wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I think a key point being missed by the people arguing numbers games is that CG stated explicitly that their goal is to keep end-game neutral this round of updates. So even if the nerf is as low as 2%, it is a failure on their end that should be corrected, by their own admission.

    I believe it was stated "as close as possible", at which point if it was really only 2% (which we cant really prove), that would be pretty close.

    We can prove with math that each person has a different outcome, but no one has said a number as low as 2% yet. I was being generous, because the real average is likely much closer to 10%.

    Also, if 2% is as close as possible, then why would there be easy ways to close that 2% gap? That's not what "as close as possible" means, that's settling.

    Edit: 2% would be incredibly close though, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there's no reason to stop there unless it is absolutely as close as they can get it. And it isn't, since they can just adjust prices or income sources as much as they want until it's balanced or even net positive.

    I'd say 10% would probably be a decent average. Though it may be as high as 20% in some cases.

    Or as some people have said, since gear farming can take all the energy, and all the shops have stuff like ability mats to purchase too, in some cases Bronzium's might make up as much as 50 to 60% of all SSC because they don't really get any shards elsewhere. Getting prestige tokens from Arena shop until you've maxed out all capital ship skills is a viable use of those tokens and that removes up to 15 shards as someone has said. Getting Zetas and Omegas practically eliminates all Ship Store farming for many players unless you reaaally want SSC. You really only have Galactic War and Cantina as reliable sources until you've gotten all the Zetas and Capital ship moves that you want.

    I specifically left out the ship store from my calculation because I assumed Zetas are bought there by most. And that came up to less than 10%.

    And prestige is likely not farmed a lot by end game players since you get a ton over the years naturally. You may farm it for a time to get a capital ship done faster but it really isn't needed.

    Yes some may buy credits or ship credits rather than shard currency but CG can't be expected to correct for any possible choice.

    And I think in this case you have to consider end game when calculating the nerf since the added speed of farms more than make up for the nerf already for early and mid game (eg you don't have the stores finished.)

    Well I'm just saying, for anyone that wants to argue the semantics of an "average", that there are people in mid-endgame with different farming strats, and there are people with no finished stores because they bought the Hyperdrive bundle and just floated to the top of their shard meta and stayed there. The "average" lost currency gets very muddled because in these rare scenarios, it may be a 0% loss for someone who never opens Bronziums, or it may be a 100% nerf from someone whos only SSC source is Bronziums. Middle ground between those is still bad, because it's highly likely for some people that 50% of their SSC comes from good Bronzium pulls.

    If they could get it to 2% as a general statement, I'd be very happy, but there's no reason to stop at 2%, nor is there any reason to believe that the math will ever get as low and clean as 2%. So all around, unless the whole world just falls into place during this update, it's a nerf regardless of the number involved, and should be corrected as soon as they are capable of doing so.

    If you bought the hyperdrive bundle and just didn't bother finishing enough characters to use the stores for shard shop currency, that is a resource management issue and not one with the update.

    I don't think CG should be expected to consider these choices in the overall effect of the bronizum nerf.

    But if they only raise the price by 150% I'm good with that as it will help me as well. But I don't demand that to accept this within their stated intention.

    I just think within their stated intention of "as close as possible to net neutral for endgame" or whatever the exact phrasing was, they should consider that this nerf could very reasonably be taking well over 10% of all SSC from endgame players. For a lot of people it could exceed 25%, and for a select group who only get SSC from Bronziums, it could be over 50% if they get lucky drops. Those numbers are dangerous when your goal is to be close to 0%, and just because people with only 4% lost can say "I only lost 4% so the price buff should be balanced at 196%" doesn't mean that should be how it is. It should be closer to the average because that's how you calculate "net gain"

    You can't just pick a day when you get 100 shards from a pull to get a 90% nerf number though. That's an outlier. I think 10% is probably close to an average for endgame players that use their resources wisely.

    I'll define spending resources wisely as it affect shard shop currency to be clear.

    1. You are using crystals to do 3 refreshes of cantina energy and farming either a character or signal data. (That nets you about 10 shards a day from the cantina store) and you need the signal data and refreshes are much cheaper than buying it.

    2. You use the following stores for shard shop currency

    Cantina store
    Arena store (there's only so much prestige you can farm before it is dumb)
    Galactic war store

    If you are doing that the nerf is probably around 10%. Maybe as high as 15% if my 10 shards a day from bronizums is incorrect.

    But there is no way you are endgame, using your resources smartly, and getting a 50% nerf to your shard shop income from this.

    The problem is you're assuming endgame players and ignoing midgame players like me. I don't need most of the characters that benefit from this, and my SSC numbers are massively different than what you are positioning as endgame, meaning rosters like mine lose out on way more SSC than your numbers, and gain very little in exchange.

    But I think it's kind of besid the point by now. I think we're all pretty well agreed it needs to be addressed.

    So at mid game, you can't use the cantina store, the arena store, add and the gw store for shard shop currency.

    And you can't spare 300 crystals a day for cantina refreshes when you will need the signal data anyway?

    Those were my assumptions.

    Cantina store, like I said earlier, nets me 5 shards/2 days unless I'm refreshing cantina energy, which on average I get one of per day at best, and I'd rather spend that directly on gear as it is in fact more efficient when gear is a MUCH deeper bottleneck for me.

    I did factor in GW shop in those maths, so yes I do use them

    My arena store is 7.5 shards per day, and I included that in the first set of numbers. I am by no means an inefficient player, and I am frustrated you're straw-man-ing. I have increased my GP, my overall contribution to guild events, my arena rank and roster far faster than the others I my current guild and the three previous ones I was a part of, while also securing every legendary pretty darn quickly for f2p, so I think I'm doing pretty well as far as efficiency is concerned.

    You have a new alt account(Early game) and a top 10 account(Late game,) unless I am reading incorrectly, I apologise and recind this if so, but neither of your accounts seem(as I can't know for sure) to have even remotely similar potential/conditions as mine. I'm not arguing your numbers are wrong for your accounts, but they are definitely wrong for mine, and it isn't because I'm inefficient.

    I also happen to know a few people that do have accounts like mine, so it isn't an isolated edge case either. That is why I argu that the SSC/Bronziums nerf is more significant to accounts similar to mine(which I think is actually pretty close to average/60%+) than your accounts situation implies.

    I apologise if I ruffled feathers, that was not my intent. I still think we should forget the numbers, agree it should be looked at, and give each other high fives.

    I agree that we should all high five and makeup, but we absolutely should try to find the best average we can. Otherwise, we'll never know if a fix is adequately "close to net neutral" or not. If they lower the Shard Shop increase to 190% to account for a 10% nerf, but the average in actuality is closer to 20 or 30%, then the fix only helps those that fell into that 10% window. Everyone else gets bumped closer to net neutral, but still falls quite short. This is what it means when I say it would be better to err on the side of net positive, because until someone does like, a large scale case study, we can only speculate on the numbers. But either way we all agree it's AT LEAST a double digit percentage nerf.

    I don't see this a a fight. More like a spirited debate. So no hard feelings.
Sign In or Register to comment.