After unlocking his Ult Im running nearly 100% against any JML or Rey team with a comp of SEE, Vader, Malak, DR, Wat. Can also throw in BastF if I really need to slow team TM down.
It's still vader and wat carrying that team
It's a Wat carry more than a vader...I could lose vader at the start and the outcome is the same. Really as long as SEE gets ult, it really is a win. I do tend to lose my whole team by the time that happens though, which can be meh.
I'm not saying other leads plus Vader/thrawn/wat combo cant take Rey easy....I'm just saying I could take Rey with SEE, DR, Malak, BastF, Wat....no thrawn or vader needed and pretty easily. Easier than SLKR for me with SE team backing because with SLKR there can be some sketchy moments where if I don't finish certain people off by the 2nd AOE siphon it could go poorly. And my SLKR is heavily modded the best at 540 speed and upwards to 13k Damage. It just is what it is.
Again not saying he doesn't need a tweak, I just am beginning to feel like my investment wasn't complete horse poo.
Again Wat is crucial....but hes crucial everywhere. To say he shouldn't be needed on SEE team, would be a bit funny if hes used on JML, JKL, Vadar, DR, Rey teams. SLKR can even make pretty good use of him in SLKR mirror match ups. He's just a really good toon.
Well yeah, but the argument "you can't really compare with Wat, Wat's a great toon" doesn't hold much water. I can appreciate your point, but Wat isn't a GL, so if SEE doesn't feel as good, fun, exciting, or useful as Wat, then SEE is not performing at the GL level. Even though Wat adds to the other teams, he's not the only lynchpin holding it together. On an SEE team, he pretty much always is unless there's a modding/comp mistake on the opposing team.
Yea but why is Wat so valued? Because JML and SEE don't add an invulnerability to the fight at all like SLKR and Rey do. Rey stops complete damage out to the team if you try and hit her with a wall of high dmg toons without preping (thrawn vader) before taking her out of the equation. SLKR pretty much just uses his team to turn him into a god for 3 rounds in which he should have mopped up the fight. I suppose the question would be should all GL's be hemogenized that way?
Yeah the other two GL's have a win condition that's preventable but still insanely powerful. The new GL's are mostly just preventable, and mildly cool upon use. I think it mainly lies in the flawed execution of transformation ults, which is incredibly cool in theory, but was poorly realized in the two new GL's
I think it's pretty laughable that Kyno or CG tries to defend that all 4 GLs are equal in power. That's barely true if it even is for arena, but when you include all game modes it's 100% false.
I think SEE owners would be alot happier right now if he was mediocre to bad in arena, but could solo raids in PVE, but he can't. SLKR can solo raids, is the best arena toon (or tied for best) is statistically the best PVP toon in GAC in both 3v3 and 5v5 (I'll link because Kyno always asks for proof). Kylo takes his own FO team and doesn't pull from 2 or 3 others to make him work at high end, like JML, like Rey, like SEE does.
These GLs aren't equal in power, one may be able to beat another and make yoru rock, paper scissors you so want, but when you include all areas of the game, it isn't even close.
TLDR: Get SLKR and don't worry about anything else.
No one has said they are at the same power level. They did they that was the goal. Please quite me of you are going to say I am saying something.
After unlocking his Ult Im running nearly 100% against any JML or Rey team with a comp of SEE, Vader, Malak, DR, Wat. Can also throw in BastF if I really need to slow team TM down.
It's still vader and wat carrying that team
It's a Wat carry more than a vader...I could lose vader at the start and the outcome is the same. Really as long as SEE gets ult, it really is a win. I do tend to lose my whole team by the time that happens though, which can be meh.
I'm not saying other leads plus Vader/thrawn/wat combo cant take Rey easy....I'm just saying I could take Rey with SEE, DR, Malak, BastF, Wat....no thrawn or vader needed and pretty easily. Easier than SLKR for me with SE team backing because with SLKR there can be some sketchy moments where if I don't finish certain people off by the 2nd AOE siphon it could go poorly. And my SLKR is heavily modded the best at 540 speed and upwards to 13k Damage. It just is what it is.
Again not saying he doesn't need a tweak, I just am beginning to feel like my investment wasn't complete horse poo.
Again Wat is crucial....but hes crucial everywhere. To say he shouldn't be needed on SEE team, would be a bit funny if hes used on JML, JKL, Vadar, DR, Rey teams. SLKR can even make pretty good use of him in SLKR mirror match ups. He's just a really good toon.
at last someone a bit differentiated and without overexaggeration
After unlocking his Ult Im running nearly 100% against any JML or Rey team with a comp of SEE, Vader, Malak, DR, Wat. Can also throw in BastF if I really need to slow team TM down.
It's still vader and wat carrying that team
It's a Wat carry more than a vader...I could lose vader at the start and the outcome is the same. Really as long as SEE gets ult, it really is a win. I do tend to lose my whole team by the time that happens though, which can be meh.
I'm not saying other leads plus Vader/thrawn/wat combo cant take Rey easy....I'm just saying I could take Rey with SEE, DR, Malak, BastF, Wat....no thrawn or vader needed and pretty easily. Easier than SLKR for me with SE team backing because with SLKR there can be some sketchy moments where if I don't finish certain people off by the 2nd AOE siphon it could go poorly. And my SLKR is heavily modded the best at 540 speed and upwards to 13k Damage. It just is what it is.
Again not saying he doesn't need a tweak, I just am beginning to feel like my investment wasn't complete horse poo.
Again Wat is crucial....but hes crucial everywhere. To say he shouldn't be needed on SEE team, would be a bit funny if hes used on JML, JKL, Vadar, DR, Rey teams. SLKR can even make pretty good use of him in SLKR mirror match ups. He's just a really good toon.
I have found that Wat makes the fight easier at times but I have had better results with Traya, Set, Vader, as the core then thrawn vs SLKR (single tank only), and either, sion, malak or DN as the 5th with similar results vs JML and Rey.
That said, I agree with you. Once you tweak the team, most of which you need to relic ON TOP of the useless toons you had to relic to unlock, see can be really useful in arena. The problem is that the extra sith/DS characters he needs to work make him the most expensive GL to make work.
He needs tweaks. CG needs to solve for the solos (due to linked clunkiness) and maybe up the damage to DS characters. It’s really disappointing to crit for 28k when SLKR Is critting you back for 90k with a basic. Fix linked to not be reliant on two enemies and expand some defensive capabilities for his team while he isn’t in ultimate, or allow him to use his protection heal/assist post ultimate.
☮ Consular ☮American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor)JedhaYavin IV
I think it's pretty laughable that Kyno or CG tries to defend that all 4 GLs are equal in power. That's barely true if it even is for arena, but when you include all game modes it's 100% false.
I think SEE owners would be alot happier right now if he was mediocre to bad in arena, but could solo raids in PVE, but he can't. SLKR can solo raids, is the best arena toon (or tied for best) is statistically the best PVP toon in GAC in both 3v3 and 5v5 (I'll link because Kyno always asks for proof). Kylo takes his own FO team and doesn't pull from 2 or 3 others to make him work at high end, like JML, like Rey, like SEE does.
These GLs aren't equal in power, one may be able to beat another and make yoru rock, paper scissors you so want, but when you include all areas of the game, it isn't even close.
TLDR: Get SLKR and don't worry about anything else.
No one has said they are at the same power level. They did they that was the goal. Please quite me of you are going to say I am saying something.
After unlocking his Ult Im running nearly 100% against any JML or Rey team with a comp of SEE, Vader, Malak, DR, Wat. Can also throw in BastF if I really need to slow team TM down.
It's still vader and wat carrying that team
It's a Wat carry more than a vader...I could lose vader at the start and the outcome is the same. Really as long as SEE gets ult, it really is a win. I do tend to lose my whole team by the time that happens though, which can be meh.
I'm not saying other leads plus Vader/thrawn/wat combo cant take Rey easy....I'm just saying I could take Rey with SEE, DR, Malak, BastF, Wat....no thrawn or vader needed and pretty easily. Easier than SLKR for me with SE team backing because with SLKR there can be some sketchy moments where if I don't finish certain people off by the 2nd AOE siphon it could go poorly. And my SLKR is heavily modded the best at 540 speed and upwards to 13k Damage. It just is what it is.
Again not saying he doesn't need a tweak, I just am beginning to feel like my investment wasn't complete horse poo.
Again Wat is crucial....but hes crucial everywhere. To say he shouldn't be needed on SEE team, would be a bit funny if hes used on JML, JKL, Vadar, DR, Rey teams. SLKR can even make pretty good use of him in SLKR mirror match ups. He's just a really good toon.
Well yeah, but the argument "you can't really compare with Wat, Wat's a great toon" doesn't hold much water. I can appreciate your point, but Wat isn't a GL, so if SEE doesn't feel as good, fun, exciting, or useful as Wat, then SEE is not performing at the GL level. Even though Wat adds to the other teams, he's not the only lynchpin holding it together. On an SEE team, he pretty much always is unless there's a modding/comp mistake on the opposing team.
Yea but why is Wat so valued? Because JML and SEE don't add an invulnerability to the fight at all like SLKR and Rey do. Rey stops complete damage out to the team if you try and hit her with a wall of high dmg toons without preping (thrawn vader) before taking her out of the equation. SLKR pretty much just uses his team to turn him into a god for 3 rounds in which he should have mopped up the fight. I suppose the question would be should all GL's be hemogenized that way?
Yeah the other two GL's have a win condition that's preventable but still insanely powerful. The new GL's are mostly just preventable, and mildly cool upon use. I think it mainly lies in the flawed execution of transformation ults, which is incredibly cool in theory, but was poorly realized in the two new GL's
Agree and Wat let's me ignore whether I prevent that win condition as my SEE can take a GL vs GL Rey ult to the face as long as he has tech. If he doesn't he gets one shot regardless of health/prot. If I was trying to prevent I would of course probably have to play differently. It's just hard to say I tried fighting Rey with SEE, Vader, DR, BastF, Malak without Wat and it was probably about 50% successful. Most losses came down to Rey quickly generating ult which led to one shotting SEE. With tech Rey still built and ulted but it did not one shot SEE, and about 50% to another Ult SEE was able to used unlimited power again.
So with that shown SEE definitely lacks reasonable ult gen. Unlimited power does pretty much wipe the field of misc players taking it to the GL vs GL level. Problem here is reuse of the ability and pretty low damage on basic attack.
Definitely needs tweaks.
Unfortunately my triumvirate+SeT is only g12 at this time. Unfortunately I won't be raising them to relic any time soon so will have to stick with what works. SEE+Sith empire + Wat for now.
After unlocking his Ult Im running nearly 100% against any JML or Rey team with a comp of SEE, Vader, Malak, DR, Wat. Can also throw in BastF if I really need to slow team TM down.
It's still vader and wat carrying that team
It's a Wat carry more than a vader...I could lose vader at the start and the outcome is the same. Really as long as SEE gets ult, it really is a win. I do tend to lose my whole team by the time that happens though, which can be meh.
I'm not saying other leads plus Vader/thrawn/wat combo cant take Rey easy....I'm just saying I could take Rey with SEE, DR, Malak, BastF, Wat....no thrawn or vader needed and pretty easily. Easier than SLKR for me with SE team backing because with SLKR there can be some sketchy moments where if I don't finish certain people off by the 2nd AOE siphon it could go poorly. And my SLKR is heavily modded the best at 540 speed and upwards to 13k Damage. It just is what it is.
Again not saying he doesn't need a tweak, I just am beginning to feel like my investment wasn't complete horse poo.
Again Wat is crucial....but hes crucial everywhere. To say he shouldn't be needed on SEE team, would be a bit funny if hes used on JML, JKL, Vadar, DR, Rey teams. SLKR can even make pretty good use of him in SLKR mirror match ups. He's just a really good toon.
Well yeah, but the argument "you can't really compare with Wat, Wat's a great toon" doesn't hold much water. I can appreciate your point, but Wat isn't a GL, so if SEE doesn't feel as good, fun, exciting, or useful as Wat, then SEE is not performing at the GL level. Even though Wat adds to the other teams, he's not the only lynchpin holding it together. On an SEE team, he pretty much always is unless there's a modding/comp mistake on the opposing team.
Yea but why is Wat so valued? Because JML and SEE don't add an invulnerability to the fight at all like SLKR and Rey do. Rey stops complete damage out to the team if you try and hit her with a wall of high dmg toons without preping (thrawn vader) before taking her out of the equation. SLKR pretty much just uses his team to turn him into a god for 3 rounds in which he should have mopped up the fight. I suppose the question would be should all GL's be hemogenized that way?
Yeah the other two GL's have a win condition that's preventable but still insanely powerful. The new GL's are mostly just preventable, and mildly cool upon use. I think it mainly lies in the flawed execution of transformation ults, which is incredibly cool in theory, but was poorly realized in the two new GL's
Agree and Wat let's me ignore whether I prevent that win condition as my SEE can take a GL vs GL Rey ult to the face as long as he has tech. If he doesn't he gets one shot regardless of health/prot. If I was trying to prevent I would of course probably have to play differently. It's just hard to say I tried fighting Rey with SEE, Vader, DR, BastF, Malak without Wat and it was probably about 50% successful. Most losses came down to Rey quickly generating ult which led to one shotting SEE. With tech Rey still built and ulted but it did not one shot SEE, and about 50% to another Ult SEE was able to used unlimited power again.
So with that shown SEE definitely lacks reasonable ult gen. Unlimited power does pretty much wipe the field of misc players taking it to the GL vs GL level. Problem here is reuse of the ability and pretty low damage on basic attack.
Definitely needs tweaks.
Unfortunately my triumvirate+SeT is only g12 at this time. Unfortunately I won't be raising them to relic any time soon so will have to stick with what works. SEE+Sith empire + Wat for now.
After unlocking his Ult Im running nearly 100% against any JML or Rey team with a comp of SEE, Vader, Malak, DR, Wat. Can also throw in BastF if I really need to slow team TM down.
It's still vader and wat carrying that team
It's a Wat carry more than a vader...I could lose vader at the start and the outcome is the same. Really as long as SEE gets ult, it really is a win. I do tend to lose my whole team by the time that happens though, which can be meh.
I'm not saying other leads plus Vader/thrawn/wat combo cant take Rey easy....I'm just saying I could take Rey with SEE, DR, Malak, BastF, Wat....no thrawn or vader needed and pretty easily. Easier than SLKR for me with SE team backing because with SLKR there can be some sketchy moments where if I don't finish certain people off by the 2nd AOE siphon it could go poorly. And my SLKR is heavily modded the best at 540 speed and upwards to 13k Damage. It just is what it is.
Again not saying he doesn't need a tweak, I just am beginning to feel like my investment wasn't complete horse poo.
Again Wat is crucial....but hes crucial everywhere. To say he shouldn't be needed on SEE team, would be a bit funny if hes used on JML, JKL, Vadar, DR, Rey teams. SLKR can even make pretty good use of him in SLKR mirror match ups. He's just a really good toon.
Well yeah, but the argument "you can't really compare with Wat, Wat's a great toon" doesn't hold much water. I can appreciate your point, but Wat isn't a GL, so if SEE doesn't feel as good, fun, exciting, or useful as Wat, then SEE is not performing at the GL level. Even though Wat adds to the other teams, he's not the only lynchpin holding it together. On an SEE team, he pretty much always is unless there's a modding/comp mistake on the opposing team.
Yea but why is Wat so valued? Because JML and SEE don't add an invulnerability to the fight at all like SLKR and Rey do. Rey stops complete damage out to the team if you try and hit her with a wall of high dmg toons without preping (thrawn vader) before taking her out of the equation. SLKR pretty much just uses his team to turn him into a god for 3 rounds in which he should have mopped up the fight. I suppose the question would be should all GL's be hemogenized that way?
Yeah the other two GL's have a win condition that's preventable but still insanely powerful. The new GL's are mostly just preventable, and mildly cool upon use. I think it mainly lies in the flawed execution of transformation ults, which is incredibly cool in theory, but was poorly realized in the two new GL's
Agree and Wat let's me ignore whether I prevent that win condition as my SEE can take a GL vs GL Rey ult to the face as long as he has tech. If he doesn't he gets one shot regardless of health/prot. If I was trying to prevent I would of course probably have to play differently. It's just hard to say I tried fighting Rey with SEE, Vader, DR, BastF, Malak without Wat and it was probably about 50% successful. Most losses came down to Rey quickly generating ult which led to one shotting SEE. With tech Rey still built and ulted but it did not one shot SEE, and about 50% to another Ult SEE was able to used unlimited power again.
So with that shown SEE definitely lacks reasonable ult gen. Unlimited power does pretty much wipe the field of misc players taking it to the GL vs GL level. Problem here is reuse of the ability and pretty low damage on basic attack.
Definitely needs tweaks.
Unfortunately my triumvirate+SeT is only g12 at this time. Unfortunately I won't be raising them to relic any time soon so will have to stick with what works. SEE+Sith empire + Wat for now.
Which tech do you put on SEE?
Shield battery. Tonight I've swapped in Kylo's high damage mods....lowering his speed from 540 to 505. He does pump a bit more damage at the slower rate. Basics in ult push about 100k. Not sure which way I want to go with him. Kylo using SEE's mods currently have him sitting at 570 speed but his damage took a gnarly hit.
Kind of my overall observations thus far. About 100 battles done over the past week. We'll say about 50 non-ult and 50ish with ult. This is using SEE, Vader/BastF, DR, Malak, Wat. All are r7 but Wat @ r3. As I've said previously I don't have SeT, Traya, Scion or Nihilus at any sort of relic spot. I'm not sure I'd like them even if they were slighly more proficient. I believe the team is very control heavy and I've been pushing heavy damage.
None ult-
Vs. SLKR - Almost zero chance of defeating an ult or non ult team that is even remotely organized without really twisting your comp, at which point it just becomes easier to use a non GL counter.
Vs. Rey = 50% win rate roughly. Just depends on the turns and who the Rey is comped with. A lot come down to SEE vs Rey, and it ends as loss as non ult SEE cannot put out even remotely enough damage to take down Rey.
Vs. JML - Can almost auto all comps except Bast lead. Bast lead and Ult JML leads with high quality modded maxed teams can still be problematic due to outgoing damage. But it's very likely you will only have 1 unfortunate loss in 10 battles.
Ult SEE-
Vs. SLKR - I've only tested some here but most have been loses. SLKR tends to clip team members rapidly and is hard to slow down. Usually ends with SEE wiping his team with ULT and turns into SEE vs SLKR. Even with 15k special damage I can get SLKR maybe to yellow before he just single turn ults to finish SEE. Hard fight.
Vs. Rey - 90+% win rate against all comps. Link most active characters, be sure to link before ult and you're likely to wipe team. High speed can have a couple dicey runs depending on how hard Rey hits. Shield battery has prevented many deaths here. High Damage, Rey doesn't usually get to a second ult.
Vs. JML - No JML team has even remotely stood a chance. Your team is pretty much fodder and stalls until SEE gets ult and deletes the opposing team.
People might have different experiences, these are mine so far.
The real problem with SEE - Future proofing a GL. I imagine GL's are meant to be a meaningful and long term addition to metas. Any DS teams upcoming or current slows SEE down tremendously. He just doesn't do damage unless they are LS, and that might become a growing problem in the future. And of course him being Solo'ed. Team synergy is somewhat merpy too. I feel like he should be able to protect his team from being deleted before some can even go. SLKR pretty much removes one member round 1, and Luke blast + JKL follow up is likely to remove 1 member from round 1. Rey can't delete a toon, but she protects her team from being deleted in round 1. He's just missing that polish to keep him on par.
Also I have noticed this has not been addressed, does anyone know why See and Jml leaderships are restricted and yet Slkr and Rey are not. That is a start. It makes no sense that you have restrictions on two and none on the other two.
Yeah, I would argue that SLKR and Rey are Dark Side and Light Side leaders respectively, moreso than faction leaders. They just happen to have good synergy with their own teams. SLKR could very well be a Sith leader.
Meanwhile SEE and JML both have Sith and Jedi leads tied to their kit, and aren't the best lead option for those teams. Yet they both also have the most limited ult charges that almost require them to be the leaders. It seems counterproductive since they aren't good leaders.
Yep. Two issues: overestimation of the Sith tag, and overestimation of SEE's level of mastery gain, resulting in CG nerfing SEE hard right out of the box.
Forcing JML and SEE into the leadership slot is the whole point, because CG is afraid of the Sith and Jedi factions being too powerful, especially with Sith/Jedi GLs under a more powerful Sith/Jedi lead. That's not unreasonable--we can still see now how powerful JKR lead is. And DR, if we recall, had the "sith empire" faction made up to limit DR's lead and synergy. @Son_Goku9001 was asking about this.
However, JML even outside of the leader slot can provide decent support, as well as tank whirlwinds and SLKR stabs. In the leader slot, he supports them more (although this does result in vulnerabilities). And Rey/SLKR both have crit immunity and invulnerability mechanics. On the other hand, SEE hides from big GL attacks, and can't protect against them at all. Linked doesn't reduce their damage or prevent their crits. And that's kind of the point of his kit, to let Sith die instead of him, and to be super weak--but without their deaths giving him anything but buying time for his ultimate so that he can just have a chance of becoming an okay GL, and without him having strong power growth over time, the overall situation is totally imbalanced. JKR works over or under JML, while DR can help SEE but loses a lot of damage, doesn't support him, has defense penetration anyway on his own, and actually blocks his ultimate charge with fears. So CG is overly afraid of Sith, and the consequence is that their attempt at balance is, in practice, a Sith GL that has Sith-focused players who already had most of the requirements considering quitting rather than celebrating the blessing of a Sith GL.
In short, SEE's strengths are generally just moderate things, and his base level is incredibly weak. This is the total (perhaps unintentional) misrepresentation in SEE's kit, and his core design flaw. Rather than making his damage vs non-Jedi normal, or making his damage before ultimate normal, or making him start weak then get great mastery/damage gain, he starts off with many weaknesses and doesn't really get great strengths to compensate for them.
For example, rather than the damage vs Jedi on post-Ultimate basic having a high multiplier, that actually just makes his damage decent, while his base multiplier and all the factors that go into it are kind of terrible--low defense penetration, modest mastery type, low mastery gain, low ability damage multiplier.
So this is all for the precious Sith tag, while SLKR's general DS synergy is better. SLKR even works better under a Sith lead compared to SEE. SEE is forced to sit in the leader spot and blocks a better Sith lead, doesn't do nearly as much for Sith as SLKR does, and takes up a valuable spot in general (this is why non-SEE Sith battles against SLKR are better, because SLKR's initial attack against a pretaunt tank highlights the importance of the remaining 4 slots). The Sith tag isn't pointless. SEE does get cleansed by Traya, while she's alive (which isn't that long, especially without her lead and without SEE really doing much for her). And if a non-Sith dies he doesn't regenerate protection, but that's just another example of a weakness because he needs that protection so badly. When SEE is this weak, the focus becomes not SEE holding on defense, but rather SEE on offense--and on offense any GL can just use Wat for that.
The end result is a GL-lite, when this is hardly what anyone would expect from a brand new GL and CG knows it.
After unlocking his Ult Im running nearly 100% against any JML or Rey team with a comp of SEE, Vader, Malak, DR, Wat. Can also throw in BastF if I really need to slow team TM down.
It's still vader and wat carrying that team
It's a Wat carry more than a vader...I could lose vader at the start and the outcome is the same. Really as long as SEE gets ult, it really is a win. I do tend to lose my whole team by the time that happens though, which can be meh.
I'm not saying other leads plus Vader/thrawn/wat combo cant take Rey easy....I'm just saying I could take Rey with SEE, DR, Malak, BastF, Wat....no thrawn or vader needed and pretty easily. Easier than SLKR for me with SE team backing because with SLKR there can be some sketchy moments where if I don't finish certain people off by the 2nd AOE siphon it could go poorly. And my SLKR is heavily modded the best at 540 speed and upwards to 13k Damage. It just is what it is.
Again not saying he doesn't need a tweak, I just am beginning to feel like my investment wasn't complete horse poo.
Again Wat is crucial....but hes crucial everywhere. To say he shouldn't be needed on SEE team, would be a bit funny if hes used on JML, JKL, Vadar, DR, Rey teams. SLKR can even make pretty good use of him in SLKR mirror match ups. He's just a really good toon.
Well yeah, but the argument "you can't really compare with Wat, Wat's a great toon" doesn't hold much water. I can appreciate your point, but Wat isn't a GL, so if SEE doesn't feel as good, fun, exciting, or useful as Wat, then SEE is not performing at the GL level. Even though Wat adds to the other teams, he's not the only lynchpin holding it together. On an SEE team, he pretty much always is unless there's a modding/comp mistake on the opposing team.
Yea but why is Wat so valued? Because JML and SEE don't add an invulnerability to the fight at all like SLKR and Rey do. Rey stops complete damage out to the team if you try and hit her with a wall of high dmg toons without preping (thrawn vader) before taking her out of the equation. SLKR pretty much just uses his team to turn him into a god for 3 rounds in which he should have mopped up the fight. I suppose the question would be should all GL's be hemogenized that way?
Yeah the other two GL's have a win condition that's preventable but still insanely powerful. The new GL's are mostly just preventable, and mildly cool upon use. I think it mainly lies in the flawed execution of transformation ults, which is incredibly cool in theory, but was poorly realized in the two new GL's
Agree and Wat let's me ignore whether I prevent that win condition as my SEE can take a GL vs GL Rey ult to the face as long as he has tech. If he doesn't he gets one shot regardless of health/prot. If I was trying to prevent I would of course probably have to play differently. It's just hard to say I tried fighting Rey with SEE, Vader, DR, BastF, Malak without Wat and it was probably about 50% successful. Most losses came down to Rey quickly generating ult which led to one shotting SEE. With tech Rey still built and ulted but it did not one shot SEE, and about 50% to another Ult SEE was able to used unlimited power again.
So with that shown SEE definitely lacks reasonable ult gen. Unlimited power does pretty much wipe the field of misc players taking it to the GL vs GL level. Problem here is reuse of the ability and pretty low damage on basic attack.
Definitely needs tweaks.
Unfortunately my triumvirate+SeT is only g12 at this time. Unfortunately I won't be raising them to relic any time soon so will have to stick with what works. SEE+Sith empire + Wat for now.
Which tech do you put on SEE?
Shield battery. Tonight I've swapped in Kylo's high damage mods....lowering his speed from 540 to 505. He does pump a bit more damage at the slower rate. Basics in ult push about 100k. Not sure which way I want to go with him. Kylo using SEE's mods currently have him sitting at 570 speed but his damage took a gnarly hit.
Interesting. I use Wat with SEE but put the weapon tech on SEE. Plus HYoda to give Masters Training to SEE. Win rate against JML is 100%, against Rey >95%. My SEE is only 499 speed and the mods are not the best I could have used.
HEY, CG, please don't release any further fake Dark Side Gls in case they will be the same as SEE regarding power level, we have SLKR whose kit for Dark Side toons is real good, and there is no need to **** our resources, we studied this painfull lesson and i think after this situation most player think twice before start panic farming of your future Meta/Gls toons
The real problem with SEE - Future proofing a GL. I imagine GL's are meant to be a meaningful and long term addition to metas. Any DS teams upcoming or current slows SEE down tremendously. He just doesn't do damage unless they are LS, and that might become a growing problem in the future. And of course him being Solo'ed. Team synergy is somewhat merpy too. I feel like he should be able to protect his team from being deleted before some can even go. SLKR pretty much removes one member round 1, and Luke blast + JKL follow up is likely to remove 1 member from round 1. Rey can't delete a toon, but she protects her team from being deleted in round 1. He's just missing that polish to keep him on par.
Yep. SLKR isn't just a lone example--he's an illustration of what happens when SEE is up against a real DS GL. And it's not pretty. SEE is the opposite of future-proof, since he's not even present-proof and feels like a half-GL who could've been released a long time ago and had a chance to be decent for a while before SLKR came out. Being at the very bottom of an older meta in arena and not doing much else is basically the highlight of having SEE if there isn't a major touchup, and it's only downhill from here.
HEY, CG, please don't release any further fake Dark Side Gls in case they will be the same as SEE regarding power level, we have SLKR whose kit for Dark Side toons is real good, and there is no need to **** our resources, we studied this painfull lesson and i think after this situation most player think twice before start panic farming of your future Meta/Gls toons
People rushed towards Rey and later complained that Kylo is the overall better GL.
People rushed towards SEE and are now complaining that he's lackluster.
People will rush towards one of the next GL's and complain about it being the inferior one or straight up lackluster.
It's always the same. People are just impatient.
HEY, CG, please don't release any further fake Dark Side Gls in case they will be the same as SEE regarding power level, we have SLKR whose kit for Dark Side toons is real good, and there is no need to **** our resources, we studied this painfull lesson and i think after this situation most player think twice before start panic farming of your future Meta/Gls toons
People rushed towards Rey and later complained that Kylo is the overall better GL.
People rushed towards SEE and are now complaining that he's lackluster.
People will rush towards one of the next GL's and complain about it being the inferior one or straight up lackluster.
It's always the same. People are just impatient.
At least REY was additionally buffed in 6-7 weeks after release, not talking about Kylo, and JKL was released that support her a great. It's irrelevant to compare release old GLS and their buffs with new Gls' release
HEY, CG, please don't release any further fake Dark Side Gls in case they will be the same as SEE regarding power level, we have SLKR whose kit for Dark Side toons is real good, and there is no need to **** our resources, we studied this painfull lesson and i think after this situation most player think twice before start panic farming of your future Meta/Gls toons
People rushed towards Rey and later complained that Kylo is the overall better GL.
People rushed towards SEE and are now complaining that he's lackluster.
People will rush towards one of the next GL's and complain about it being the inferior one or straight up lackluster.
It's always the same. People are just impatient.
Question... how do people propse we change the Link ability? I feel like that’s a focal problem, but I’m not sure how to change it without it losing the core of what it does.
- Link an ally;
- A penalty for being alone;
- Double link same character and double effect;
- Continue to gain ultimate charge from abilities and turns without the need of link when solo;
Etc, etc
Question... how do people propse we change the Link ability? I feel like that’s a focal problem, but I’m not sure how to change it without it losing the core of what it does.
There are so many ways it could be changed, and no right or wrong answer.
Two ideas below:
A ) When there is only 1 enemy left, convert the linked ability back to the one that restores protection when it's used (the one that calls all sith allies to assist).
B ) When there's only 1 enemy left, you can link allies or SEE himself to gain massive buffs. This could work many different ways. For example, if you link two allies, it gives them bonus protection or something. If you link an ally and SEE together, it gives SEE some kind of damage boost when the Sith ally dies. Or if you link SEE and the enemy together, it gives SEE some kind of health boost and health drain on the enemy every turn.
Besides the "link doesn't work when 1 enemy left" bug, (yes I'm calling it a bug), the freaken AI needs to be changed so that SEE doesn't link GLs, unless there is only a GL+1 Ally left on the enemy team. Link on GL is stupid since they can't be killed by SEE's ultimate aoe. So that needs to be changed. It would give SEE a bit more winnability on defense.
Question... how do people propse we change the Link ability? I feel like that’s a focal problem, but I’m not sure how to change it without it losing the core of what it does.
1. Ignore taunt 2. reset cooldown when link breaks 3. if only one enemy is present, you link ally4. lastly negative damage effects and crit prevention works against enemy GLS
These fixes turn the ability from a clunky, unpolished liability that you do only because you have to into something cool and flexible, reactive and proactive. It wouldn’t be so much that it makes the ability overbuffed, but does improve it enough that if you just do that SEE is a compelling GL.
☮ Consular ☮American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor)JedhaYavin IV
Question... how do people propse we change the Link ability? I feel like that’s a focal problem, but I’m not sure how to change it without it losing the core of what it does.
There are so many ways it could be changed, and no right or wrong answer.
Two ideas below:
A ) When there is only 1 enemy left, convert the linked ability back to the one that restores protection when it's used (the one that calls all sith allies to assist).
B ) When there's only 1 enemy left, you can link allies or SEE himself to gain massive buffs. This could work many different ways. For example, if you link two allies, it gives them bonus protection or something. If you link an ally and SEE together, it gives SEE some kind of damage boost when the Sith ally dies. Or if you link SEE and the enemy together, it gives SEE some kind of health boost and health drain on the enemy every turn.
Besides the "link doesn't work when 1 enemy left" bug, (yes I'm calling it a bug), the freaken AI needs to be changed so that SEE doesn't link GLs, unless there is only a GL+1 Ally left on the enemy team. Link on GL is stupid since they can't be killed by SEE's ultimate aoe. So that needs to be changed. It would give SEE a bit more winnability on defense.
I always link a GL. They typically go twice for every 1 move of any other toon due to speed, can't be feared/stunned/etc so they charge your ultimate much more reliably... Same reason I link gas always since he does 2 abilities each turn which is 20% charge right there(and preventing gas from criting is great added benefit).
What they should code the ai for is that if someone is already linked,they shouldn't use the link ability again. It's just a wasted turn and doesn't help charge the ultimate in any way. Seep would be much better off using his basic or 1st special instead.
Having an Ally be able to be linked will probably cause a lot of technical problems on SEE vs SEE mirrors, unless it’s a completely new status effect like “United Link” or something. And you’d probably need a seperate ability than Entwinned Fate to apply it.
Which is... more doable than I thought, but could still cause problems.
Maybe we can get a Sovereign protector to help SEE
I’m beginning to think that there will be SOMETHING in this next batch of characters that will have some synergy with SEE and that is why he feels like he’s just a little off.
☮ Consular ☮American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor)JedhaYavin IV
There's no indication whatsoever that any Sith is coming, or that the Sith faction is getting any attention whatsoever. Everything about SEE's mechanics (including stuff not observable in his kit) indicate that CG was afraid of making him strong, tried to balance him, and went totally overboard and nerfed him right out of the box.
And, again, almost any new DS toon, Sith or not, would likely be stronger under SLKR compared to SEE.
There's no indication whatsoever that any Sith is coming, or that the Sith faction is getting any attention whatsoever. Everything about SEE's mechanics (including stuff not observable in his kit) indicate that CG was afraid of making him strong, tried to balance him, and went totally overboard and nerfed him right out of the box.
And, again, almost any new DS toon, Sith or not, would likely be stronger under SLKR compared to SEE.
Not necessarily. If a new character would gain strength by the number of deceived opponents or add value to the mechanics of SEE kit. But at this point there is no reason to expect a new Sith since CG declared they focus on the "era" of the Disney show The Mandalorian.
By the way: I do not think that linking allies and opponents is a good idea. It would make even less sense. In order to keep the ability and it´s effects in place it would be best to turn the "debuff" into something else that can still be applied if there is only one opponent left (or only one present at the start of the battle).
Besides the "link doesn't work when 1 enemy left" bug, (yes I'm calling it a bug), the freaken AI needs to be changed so that SEE doesn't link GLs, unless there is only a GL+1 Ally left on the enemy team. Link on GL is stupid since they can't be killed by SEE's ultimate aoe. So that needs to be changed. It would give SEE a bit more winnability on defense.
Obviously its not dumb but a question of preferred strategy. Usually linking a GL results in 2-3 opponents killed by the AoE and one GL that can be taken out comfortably.
Replies
Yeah the other two GL's have a win condition that's preventable but still insanely powerful. The new GL's are mostly just preventable, and mildly cool upon use. I think it mainly lies in the flawed execution of transformation ults, which is incredibly cool in theory, but was poorly realized in the two new GL's
No one has said they are at the same power level. They did they that was the goal. Please quite me of you are going to say I am saying something.
at last someone a bit differentiated and without overexaggeration
I have found that Wat makes the fight easier at times but I have had better results with Traya, Set, Vader, as the core then thrawn vs SLKR (single tank only), and either, sion, malak or DN as the 5th with similar results vs JML and Rey.
That said, I agree with you. Once you tweak the team, most of which you need to relic ON TOP of the useless toons you had to relic to unlock, see can be really useful in arena. The problem is that the extra sith/DS characters he needs to work make him the most expensive GL to make work.
He needs tweaks. CG needs to solve for the solos (due to linked clunkiness) and maybe up the damage to DS characters. It’s really disappointing to crit for 28k when SLKR Is critting you back for 90k with a basic. Fix linked to not be reliant on two enemies and expand some defensive capabilities for his team while he isn’t in ultimate, or allow him to use his protection heal/assist post ultimate.
What?
Agree and Wat let's me ignore whether I prevent that win condition as my SEE can take a GL vs GL Rey ult to the face as long as he has tech. If he doesn't he gets one shot regardless of health/prot. If I was trying to prevent I would of course probably have to play differently. It's just hard to say I tried fighting Rey with SEE, Vader, DR, BastF, Malak without Wat and it was probably about 50% successful. Most losses came down to Rey quickly generating ult which led to one shotting SEE. With tech Rey still built and ulted but it did not one shot SEE, and about 50% to another Ult SEE was able to used unlimited power again.
So with that shown SEE definitely lacks reasonable ult gen. Unlimited power does pretty much wipe the field of misc players taking it to the GL vs GL level. Problem here is reuse of the ability and pretty low damage on basic attack.
Definitely needs tweaks.
Unfortunately my triumvirate+SeT is only g12 at this time. Unfortunately I won't be raising them to relic any time soon so will have to stick with what works. SEE+Sith empire + Wat for now.
Which tech do you put on SEE?
Shield battery. Tonight I've swapped in Kylo's high damage mods....lowering his speed from 540 to 505. He does pump a bit more damage at the slower rate. Basics in ult push about 100k. Not sure which way I want to go with him. Kylo using SEE's mods currently have him sitting at 570 speed but his damage took a gnarly hit.
None ult-
Vs. SLKR - Almost zero chance of defeating an ult or non ult team that is even remotely organized without really twisting your comp, at which point it just becomes easier to use a non GL counter.
Vs. Rey = 50% win rate roughly. Just depends on the turns and who the Rey is comped with. A lot come down to SEE vs Rey, and it ends as loss as non ult SEE cannot put out even remotely enough damage to take down Rey.
Vs. JML - Can almost auto all comps except Bast lead. Bast lead and Ult JML leads with high quality modded maxed teams can still be problematic due to outgoing damage. But it's very likely you will only have 1 unfortunate loss in 10 battles.
Ult SEE-
Vs. SLKR - I've only tested some here but most have been loses. SLKR tends to clip team members rapidly and is hard to slow down. Usually ends with SEE wiping his team with ULT and turns into SEE vs SLKR. Even with 15k special damage I can get SLKR maybe to yellow before he just single turn ults to finish SEE. Hard fight.
Vs. Rey - 90+% win rate against all comps. Link most active characters, be sure to link before ult and you're likely to wipe team. High speed can have a couple dicey runs depending on how hard Rey hits. Shield battery has prevented many deaths here. High Damage, Rey doesn't usually get to a second ult.
Vs. JML - No JML team has even remotely stood a chance. Your team is pretty much fodder and stalls until SEE gets ult and deletes the opposing team.
People might have different experiences, these are mine so far.
The real problem with SEE - Future proofing a GL. I imagine GL's are meant to be a meaningful and long term addition to metas. Any DS teams upcoming or current slows SEE down tremendously. He just doesn't do damage unless they are LS, and that might become a growing problem in the future. And of course him being Solo'ed. Team synergy is somewhat merpy too. I feel like he should be able to protect his team from being deleted before some can even go. SLKR pretty much removes one member round 1, and Luke blast + JKL follow up is likely to remove 1 member from round 1. Rey can't delete a toon, but she protects her team from being deleted in round 1. He's just missing that polish to keep him on par.
Yep. Two issues: overestimation of the Sith tag, and overestimation of SEE's level of mastery gain, resulting in CG nerfing SEE hard right out of the box.
Forcing JML and SEE into the leadership slot is the whole point, because CG is afraid of the Sith and Jedi factions being too powerful, especially with Sith/Jedi GLs under a more powerful Sith/Jedi lead. That's not unreasonable--we can still see now how powerful JKR lead is. And DR, if we recall, had the "sith empire" faction made up to limit DR's lead and synergy. @Son_Goku9001 was asking about this.
However, JML even outside of the leader slot can provide decent support, as well as tank whirlwinds and SLKR stabs. In the leader slot, he supports them more (although this does result in vulnerabilities). And Rey/SLKR both have crit immunity and invulnerability mechanics. On the other hand, SEE hides from big GL attacks, and can't protect against them at all. Linked doesn't reduce their damage or prevent their crits. And that's kind of the point of his kit, to let Sith die instead of him, and to be super weak--but without their deaths giving him anything but buying time for his ultimate so that he can just have a chance of becoming an okay GL, and without him having strong power growth over time, the overall situation is totally imbalanced. JKR works over or under JML, while DR can help SEE but loses a lot of damage, doesn't support him, has defense penetration anyway on his own, and actually blocks his ultimate charge with fears. So CG is overly afraid of Sith, and the consequence is that their attempt at balance is, in practice, a Sith GL that has Sith-focused players who already had most of the requirements considering quitting rather than celebrating the blessing of a Sith GL.
In short, SEE's strengths are generally just moderate things, and his base level is incredibly weak. This is the total (perhaps unintentional) misrepresentation in SEE's kit, and his core design flaw. Rather than making his damage vs non-Jedi normal, or making his damage before ultimate normal, or making him start weak then get great mastery/damage gain, he starts off with many weaknesses and doesn't really get great strengths to compensate for them.
For example, rather than the damage vs Jedi on post-Ultimate basic having a high multiplier, that actually just makes his damage decent, while his base multiplier and all the factors that go into it are kind of terrible--low defense penetration, modest mastery type, low mastery gain, low ability damage multiplier.
So this is all for the precious Sith tag, while SLKR's general DS synergy is better. SLKR even works better under a Sith lead compared to SEE. SEE is forced to sit in the leader spot and blocks a better Sith lead, doesn't do nearly as much for Sith as SLKR does, and takes up a valuable spot in general (this is why non-SEE Sith battles against SLKR are better, because SLKR's initial attack against a pretaunt tank highlights the importance of the remaining 4 slots). The Sith tag isn't pointless. SEE does get cleansed by Traya, while she's alive (which isn't that long, especially without her lead and without SEE really doing much for her). And if a non-Sith dies he doesn't regenerate protection, but that's just another example of a weakness because he needs that protection so badly. When SEE is this weak, the focus becomes not SEE holding on defense, but rather SEE on offense--and on offense any GL can just use Wat for that.
The end result is a GL-lite, when this is hardly what anyone would expect from a brand new GL and CG knows it.
Interesting. I use Wat with SEE but put the weapon tech on SEE. Plus HYoda to give Masters Training to SEE. Win rate against JML is 100%, against Rey >95%. My SEE is only 499 speed and the mods are not the best I could have used.
People rushed towards Rey and later complained that Kylo is the overall better GL.
People rushed towards SEE and are now complaining that he's lackluster.
People will rush towards one of the next GL's and complain about it being the inferior one or straight up lackluster.
It's always the same. People are just impatient.
At least REY was additionally buffed in 6-7 weeks after release, not talking about Kylo, and JKL was released that support her a great. It's irrelevant to compare release old GLS and their buffs with new Gls' release
You think the issue here is impatience?
- A penalty for being alone;
- Double link same character and double effect;
- Continue to gain ultimate charge from abilities and turns without the need of link when solo;
Etc, etc
There are so many ways it could be changed, and no right or wrong answer.
Two ideas below:
A ) When there is only 1 enemy left, convert the linked ability back to the one that restores protection when it's used (the one that calls all sith allies to assist).
B ) When there's only 1 enemy left, you can link allies or SEE himself to gain massive buffs. This could work many different ways. For example, if you link two allies, it gives them bonus protection or something. If you link an ally and SEE together, it gives SEE some kind of damage boost when the Sith ally dies. Or if you link SEE and the enemy together, it gives SEE some kind of health boost and health drain on the enemy every turn.
Besides the "link doesn't work when 1 enemy left" bug, (yes I'm calling it a bug), the freaken AI needs to be changed so that SEE doesn't link GLs, unless there is only a GL+1 Ally left on the enemy team. Link on GL is stupid since they can't be killed by SEE's ultimate aoe. So that needs to be changed. It would give SEE a bit more winnability on defense.
1. Ignore taunt 2. reset cooldown when link breaks 3. if only one enemy is present, you link ally4. lastly negative damage effects and crit prevention works against enemy GLS
These fixes turn the ability from a clunky, unpolished liability that you do only because you have to into something cool and flexible, reactive and proactive. It wouldn’t be so much that it makes the ability overbuffed, but does improve it enough that if you just do that SEE is a compelling GL.
I always link a GL. They typically go twice for every 1 move of any other toon due to speed, can't be feared/stunned/etc so they charge your ultimate much more reliably... Same reason I link gas always since he does 2 abilities each turn which is 20% charge right there(and preventing gas from criting is great added benefit).
What they should code the ai for is that if someone is already linked,they shouldn't use the link ability again. It's just a wasted turn and doesn't help charge the ultimate in any way. Seep would be much better off using his basic or 1st special instead.
Which is... more doable than I thought, but could still cause problems.
Maybe we can get a Sovereign protector to help SEE
I’m beginning to think that there will be SOMETHING in this next batch of characters that will have some synergy with SEE and that is why he feels like he’s just a little off.
We get another GL or SEE gets a buff?
And, again, almost any new DS toon, Sith or not, would likely be stronger under SLKR compared to SEE.
Not necessarily. If a new character would gain strength by the number of deceived opponents or add value to the mechanics of SEE kit. But at this point there is no reason to expect a new Sith since CG declared they focus on the "era" of the Disney show The Mandalorian.
By the way: I do not think that linking allies and opponents is a good idea. It would make even less sense. In order to keep the ability and it´s effects in place it would be best to turn the "debuff" into something else that can still be applied if there is only one opponent left (or only one present at the start of the battle).
Obviously its not dumb but a question of preferred strategy. Usually linking a GL results in 2-3 opponents killed by the AoE and one GL that can be taken out comfortably.