I have a question in regards to this part of Gideon's Leader ability, "Imperial Trooper allies gain 40% Offense and revive with 50% Health and Protection the first time they are defeated each encounter" in relation to Stormtrooper's unique ability Wall of Stormtroopers zeta, "Gain 40% Offense for each defeated Empire ally."
How is "defeated" being interpreted in this situation? Right now it seems the game uses the term "defeated" in two different ways: 1) You were defeated but came back right away and 2) Being dead = being defeated for good. As an example, Veers' Aggressive Tactician, General Grievous' Metalloid Monstrosity, and Asajj's Rampage triggers in scenario 1 and scenario 2. "Whenever an enemy/ally is defeated" is the verbiage all those kits use. Regarding Moff Gideon and Stormtrooper, are we taking the Veers/Asajj/Grievous "on death" approach where a character dying then reviving immediately will trigger the unique ability bonuses or are we taking the Death Trooper approach where "defeated" literally means the character is dead and did not revive so he can apply Deathmark?
Grievous might be what I was hoping would happen where Nute would be defeated, then revive, but then would still trigger the Metalloid Monstrosity bonuses even though Nute is not really gone for good. Is Moff Gideon and Stormtrooper only a scenario 2 definition where we need "gone for good" Imperial Troopers or will it act similarly to the examples listed and work in both scenarios 1 and 2?
Clarification would be great as I am hoping Stormtrooper will become useful like how Pao and Hoth Rebel Scout did with Mon Mothma this year!
Going by ability descriptions, Stormtrooper loses 40% offense from his unique each time a defeated ally is revived
So if you had Stormtrooper + Royal Guard + Old Daka in the same team, and Royal Guard is defeated, Stormtrooper gets +40% offense, but when Old Daka revives RG, he loses that 40% offense, and gains that 40% defense again
So in Gideon's scenario, when he revives an imperial trooper with his unique, stormtrooper won't have the +40% offense even though they were defeated once since they aren't currently defeated anymore
Going by ability descriptions, Stormtrooper loses 40% offense from his unique each time a defeated ally is revived
So if you had Stormtrooper + Royal Guard + Old Daka in the same team, and Royal Guard is defeated, Stormtrooper gets +40% offense, but when Old Daka revives RG, he loses that 40% offense, and gains that 40% defense again
So in Gideon's scenario, when he revives an imperial trooper with his unique, stormtrooper won't have the +40% offense even though they were defeated once since they aren't currently defeated anymore
That's sad. Hard hitting Stormtroopers would be fun. If only it meant he gains 40% offense but doesn't lose the 40% defense because the ally is still living, but has been 'defeated'
I have a question in regards to this part of Gideon's Leader ability, "Imperial Trooper allies gain 40% Offense and revive with 50% Health and Protection the first time they are defeated each encounter" in relation to Stormtrooper's unique ability Wall of Stormtroopers zeta, "Gain 40% Offense for each defeated Empire ally."
How is "defeated" being interpreted in this situation? Right now it seems the game uses the term "defeated" in two different ways: 1) You were defeated but came back right away and 2) Being dead = being defeated for good. As an example, Veers' Aggressive Tactician, General Grievous' Metalloid Monstrosity, and Asajj's Rampage triggers in scenario 1 and scenario 2. "Whenever an enemy/ally is defeated" is the verbiage all those kits use. Regarding Moff Gideon and Stormtrooper, are we taking the Veers/Asajj/Grievous "on death" approach where a character dying then reviving immediately will trigger the unique ability bonuses or are we taking the Death Trooper approach where "defeated" literally means the character is dead and did not revive so he can apply Deathmark?
Grievous might be what I was hoping would happen where Nute would be defeated, then revive, but then would still trigger the Metalloid Monstrosity bonuses even though Nute is not really gone for good. Is Moff Gideon and Stormtrooper only a scenario 2 definition where we need "gone for good" Imperial Troopers or will it act similarly to the examples listed and work in both scenarios 1 and 2?
Clarification would be great as I am hoping Stormtrooper will become useful like how Pao and Hoth Rebel Scout did with Mon Mothma this year!
"Defeated ally" has always meant they are dead at the time. If they are not dead, it doesnt count. Just like DT.
When "ally is defeated" is used that is when they can be revived, but still have the effect.
It checks the number of dead units and then multiplies that by +40% so you end up getting +(0*40%) offense boost if all units are revived from an AOE through Gideon's unique
I have a question in regards to this part of Gideon's Leader ability, "Imperial Trooper allies gain 40% Offense and revive with 50% Health and Protection the first time they are defeated each encounter" in relation to Stormtrooper's unique ability Wall of Stormtroopers zeta, "Gain 40% Offense for each defeated Empire ally."
How is "defeated" being interpreted in this situation? Right now it seems the game uses the term "defeated" in two different ways: 1) You were defeated but came back right away and 2) Being dead = being defeated for good. As an example, Veers' Aggressive Tactician, General Grievous' Metalloid Monstrosity, and Asajj's Rampage triggers in scenario 1 and scenario 2. "Whenever an enemy/ally is defeated" is the verbiage all those kits use. Regarding Moff Gideon and Stormtrooper, are we taking the Veers/Asajj/Grievous "on death" approach where a character dying then reviving immediately will trigger the unique ability bonuses or are we taking the Death Trooper approach where "defeated" literally means the character is dead and did not revive so he can apply Deathmark?
Grievous might be what I was hoping would happen where Nute would be defeated, then revive, but then would still trigger the Metalloid Monstrosity bonuses even though Nute is not really gone for good. Is Moff Gideon and Stormtrooper only a scenario 2 definition where we need "gone for good" Imperial Troopers or will it act similarly to the examples listed and work in both scenarios 1 and 2?
Clarification would be great as I am hoping Stormtrooper will become useful like how Pao and Hoth Rebel Scout did with Mon Mothma this year!
"Defeated ally" has always meant they are dead at the time. If they are not dead, it doesnt count. Just like DT.
When "ally is defeated" is used that is when they can be revived, but still have the effect.
Yeah, the difference between stormtrooper and asajj is that Asajj has the text "(stacking)" on her bonuses
Going by ability descriptions, Stormtrooper loses 40% offense from his unique each time a defeated ally is revived
So if you had Stormtrooper + Royal Guard + Old Daka in the same team, and Royal Guard is defeated, Stormtrooper gets +40% offense, but when Old Daka revives RG, he loses that 40% offense, and gains that 40% defense again
So in Gideon's scenario, when he revives an imperial trooper with his unique, stormtrooper won't have the +40% offense even though they were defeated once since they aren't currently defeated anymore
Thanks for your interpretation. Based off your comment and another person I talked to, Synergy, it seems like this all comes down to an English lesson. Defeated is being used as a verb for Veers, Grievous, Asajj "when an ally/enemy is *defeated*." Whereas Stormtrooper is using defeated as an adjective by looking for *defeated* Empire allies. Unfortunate if that is the case. I do not see Stormtrooper as a result getting the Pao and HRS treatment. Maybe the offense boosts Gideon grants in the lead might do something if Imperials are dying around Stormtrooper but I am not expecting something crazy like Pao and HRS. Thanks for the help guys!
It checks the number of dead units and then multiplies that by +40% so you end up getting +(0*40%) offense boost if all units are revived from an AOE through Gideon's unique
Just saw your screenshots of the mechanics after posting my comment and refreshing the page. For sure that answers the question then and settles the discussion. Totally forgot that SWGoH.gg has the mechanics breakdown. Thanks for the help, Ultra and Kyno!
I have a question in regards to this part of Gideon's Leader ability, "Imperial Trooper allies gain 40% Offense and revive with 50% Health and Protection the first time they are defeated each encounter" in relation to Stormtrooper's unique ability Wall of Stormtroopers zeta, "Gain 40% Offense for each defeated Empire ally."
How is "defeated" being interpreted in this situation? Right now it seems the game uses the term "defeated" in two different ways: 1) You were defeated but came back right away and 2) Being dead = being defeated for good. As an example, Veers' Aggressive Tactician, General Grievous' Metalloid Monstrosity, and Asajj's Rampage triggers in scenario 1 and scenario 2. "Whenever an enemy/ally is defeated" is the verbiage all those kits use. Regarding Moff Gideon and Stormtrooper, are we taking the Veers/Asajj/Grievous "on death" approach where a character dying then reviving immediately will trigger the unique ability bonuses or are we taking the Death Trooper approach where "defeated" literally means the character is dead and did not revive so he can apply Deathmark?
Grievous might be what I was hoping would happen where Nute would be defeated, then revive, but then would still trigger the Metalloid Monstrosity bonuses even though Nute is not really gone for good. Is Moff Gideon and Stormtrooper only a scenario 2 definition where we need "gone for good" Imperial Troopers or will it act similarly to the examples listed and work in both scenarios 1 and 2?
Clarification would be great as I am hoping Stormtrooper will become useful like how Pao and Hoth Rebel Scout did with Mon Mothma this year!
"Defeated ally" has always meant they are dead at the time. If they are not dead, it doesnt count. Just like DT.
When "ally is defeated" is used that is when they can be revived, but still have the effect.
Yeah, the difference between stormtrooper and asajj is that Asajj has the text "(stacking)" on her bonuses
Yes, but no the difference is in the wording, and they are consistent on this one, across the examples given above:
For each defeated empire ally. - "defeated ally", meaning they are dead at that time.
Vs
When an enemy or ally is defeated - "ally is defeated" - meaning goes through the act of dying, doesnt matter what happens after that point.
From all the examples given and anything we see in thier kits they have consistently used those phrases each time and the abilities have followed suit. This is more clearly used and followed than most other examples of things we see written in kits.
Going by ability descriptions, Stormtrooper loses 40% offense from his unique each time a defeated ally is revived
So if you had Stormtrooper + Royal Guard + Old Daka in the same team, and Royal Guard is defeated, Stormtrooper gets +40% offense, but when Old Daka revives RG, he loses that 40% offense, and gains that 40% defense again
So in Gideon's scenario, when he revives an imperial trooper with his unique, stormtrooper won't have the +40% offense even though they were defeated once since they aren't currently defeated anymore
Thanks for your interpretation. Based off your comment and another person I talked to, Synergy, it seems like this all comes down to an English lesson. Defeated is being used as a verb for Veers, Grievous, Asajj "when an ally/enemy is *defeated*." Whereas Stormtrooper is using defeated as an adjective by looking for *defeated* Empire allies. Unfortunate if that is the case. I do not see Stormtrooper as a result getting the Pao and HRS treatment. Maybe the offense boosts Gideon grants in the lead might do something if Imperials are dying around Stormtrooper but I am not expecting something crazy like Pao and HRS. Thanks for the help guys!
Maybe a Stormtrooper rework is due ...
Wall of Stormtroopers - Unique
Final text: Stormtrooper gains 40% defense for each living ally and 40% offense whenever an ally is defeated.
While Stormtrooper is active, Imperial Trooper allies have +30% defense.
I'm thinking you could make an anti-BH team with Gideon, Snow, Starck, Storm, and Magma while keeping Veers, Piett, Death, Shore, and Range as a general all offensive team. A fast enough Piett can get the buff tm train going for Veers
While it would be fun to see crazy stacking offense from Stormtrooper, 40% is just too much. And probably why they worded it as they did. I could see it creating a paper zombie type of problem where you were rewarded for under-gearing toons. Especially if you put another revive ability in the team.
Something odd. The 2nd special is supposed to be a zeta, but lvl 8 of that ability is available at toon lvl 76. Zetas are always above lvl 80 abilities. Is this as intended?
Will be nerfed like Hux - but currently CG aims for money from all the quick 7* - than after the dust has settled and "damage is done" you can easily build in "empire only" or even "troopers only". I mean gideon is clearly pure empire, he shouldnt push any DS team or even more scary LS squads. Community will quickly find multiple ways to break/abuse him in his current state - i mean he is crazy fast too - so easy to get him online after GLs take a turn.
Similar to (pre-nerf) Hux, Moff Gideon has a fairly broken unique that makes him a crazy good plug & play character.
You just throw him on any team and their damage is automatically cut by half (doesn’t even include the crit / crit dmg reduction)
Im guessing he’s going to have a similar cadence to Hux where Gideon becomes crazy broken and used on nearly every arena team and then ultimately get nerfed so he has to be paired with full empire for his unique to work.
Will be nerfed like Hux - but currently CG aims for money from all the quick 7* - than after the dust has settled and "damage is done" you can easily build in "empire only" or even "troopers only". I mean gideon is clearly pure empire, he shouldnt push any DS team or even more scary LS squads. Community will quickly find multiple ways to break/abuse him in his current state - i mean he is crazy fast too - so easy to get him online after GLs take a turn.
Similar to (pre-nerf) Hux, Moff Gideon has a fairly broken unique that makes him a crazy good plug & play character.
You just throw him on any team and their damage is automatically cut by half (doesn’t even include the crit / crit dmg reduction)
Im guessing he’s going to have a similar cadence to Hux where Gideon becomes crazy broken and used on nearly every arena team and then ultimately get nerfed so he has to be paired with full empire for his unique to work.
Don't worry, he's WAI and got thoroughly tested. I mean there are plenty of devs working on this game and on top of that there's a whole beta tester program. Right? Right!?
You just throw him on any team and their damage is automatically cut by half
Not against everyone but close enough.
Bonus/malus are additive and not counted one after another. So if you have +30% offense, you will get 130/2=65 offense, but 100+30-50=80 offense. Still Bad, but not as much
Shame about the stormtrooper zeta I was expecting him to start deleting characters like in one of Luke event tiers. As such the zeta is still rather ropey.
I have another another mechanics question for you all to help me figure out regarding Gideon's lead. Are the two sentences independent of each other inside the lead? Sentence one is in regards to requiring certain classes to earn the 30% Health and Protection bonus. Second sentence is in regards to being all Imperial Troopers. The question came up during the stream whether to get the offense, revive, and insight bonuses you need to satisfy the Dark Side Support, 2 Attackers, 1 Tank AND also all allies be Imperial Troopers. Or do you just need Imperial Troopers regardless of class tags to get those bonuses? It seems you only need the right class tags for the Health and Protection bonuses. Seems like it should be independent of the Imperial Trooper bonuses.
On stream I brought in all Imperial Troopers and not the correct class requirements and I was not getting the appropriate Insight stacks when enemy leaders were taking turns. I understood that I would not get the health and protection bonus but I assumed we satisfied the all Imperial Trooper requirements so I should get the other bonuses.
I have another another mechanics question for you all to help me figure out regarding Gideon's lead. Are the two sentences independent of each other inside the lead? Sentence one is in regards to requiring certain classes to earn the 30% Health and Protection bonus. Second sentence is in regards to being all Imperial Troopers. The question came up during the stream whether to get the offense, revive, and insight bonuses you need to satisfy the Dark Side Support, 2 Attackers, 1 Tank AND also all allies be Imperial Troopers. Or do you just need Imperial Troopers regardless of class tags to get those bonuses? It seems you only need the right class tags for the Health and Protection bonuses. Seems like it should be independent of the Imperial Trooper bonuses.
On stream I brought in all Imperial Troopers and not the correct class requirements and I was not getting the appropriate Insight stacks when enemy leaders were taking turns. I understood that I would not get the health and protection bonus but I assumed we satisfied the all Imperial Trooper requirements so I should get the other bonuses.
Yes, it seems it could have been worded better but you need to satisfy both clauses:
- specific classes
- all imperial troopers
Yeah it seems like either a bug or just not worded the best. Logically, the leader says - If A then B. If G then H. Nothing links those two statements together. If this whole interaction is the intended outcome I would think it should say - If A then B. If A + G then H
I have another another mechanics question for you all to help me figure out regarding Gideon's lead. Are the two sentences independent of each other inside the lead? Sentence one is in regards to requiring certain classes to earn the 30% Health and Protection bonus. Second sentence is in regards to being all Imperial Troopers. The question came up during the stream whether to get the offense, revive, and insight bonuses you need to satisfy the Dark Side Support, 2 Attackers, 1 Tank AND also all allies be Imperial Troopers. Or do you just need Imperial Troopers regardless of class tags to get those bonuses? It seems you only need the right class tags for the Health and Protection bonuses. Seems like it should be independent of the Imperial Trooper bonuses.
On stream I brought in all Imperial Troopers and not the correct class requirements and I was not getting the appropriate Insight stacks when enemy leaders were taking turns. I understood that I would not get the health and protection bonus but I assumed we satisfied the all Imperial Trooper requirements so I should get the other bonuses.
We never got any Insight when an enemy leader takes a turn.
Both conditions must be met. Somewhere between text review and going live, the word "also" decided to go on vacation. I filed a bug on it and hopefully it'll get updated in a future release.
Replies
How is "defeated" being interpreted in this situation? Right now it seems the game uses the term "defeated" in two different ways: 1) You were defeated but came back right away and 2) Being dead = being defeated for good. As an example, Veers' Aggressive Tactician, General Grievous' Metalloid Monstrosity, and Asajj's Rampage triggers in scenario 1 and scenario 2. "Whenever an enemy/ally is defeated" is the verbiage all those kits use. Regarding Moff Gideon and Stormtrooper, are we taking the Veers/Asajj/Grievous "on death" approach where a character dying then reviving immediately will trigger the unique ability bonuses or are we taking the Death Trooper approach where "defeated" literally means the character is dead and did not revive so he can apply Deathmark?
Grievous might be what I was hoping would happen where Nute would be defeated, then revive, but then would still trigger the Metalloid Monstrosity bonuses even though Nute is not really gone for good. Is Moff Gideon and Stormtrooper only a scenario 2 definition where we need "gone for good" Imperial Troopers or will it act similarly to the examples listed and work in both scenarios 1 and 2?
Clarification would be great as I am hoping Stormtrooper will become useful like how Pao and Hoth Rebel Scout did with Mon Mothma this year!
Going by ability descriptions, Stormtrooper loses 40% offense from his unique each time a defeated ally is revived
So if you had Stormtrooper + Royal Guard + Old Daka in the same team, and Royal Guard is defeated, Stormtrooper gets +40% offense, but when Old Daka revives RG, he loses that 40% offense, and gains that 40% defense again
So in Gideon's scenario, when he revives an imperial trooper with his unique, stormtrooper won't have the +40% offense even though they were defeated once since they aren't currently defeated anymore
That's sad. Hard hitting Stormtroopers would be fun. If only it meant he gains 40% offense but doesn't lose the 40% defense because the ally is still living, but has been 'defeated'
"Defeated ally" has always meant they are dead at the time. If they are not dead, it doesnt count. Just like DT.
When "ally is defeated" is used that is when they can be revived, but still have the effect.
The unique triggers on:
and whenever an ally is killed or revived:
It checks the number of dead units and then multiplies that by +40% so you end up getting +(0*40%) offense boost if all units are revived from an AOE through Gideon's unique
Yeah, the difference between stormtrooper and asajj is that Asajj has the text "(stacking)" on her bonuses
Thanks for your interpretation. Based off your comment and another person I talked to, Synergy, it seems like this all comes down to an English lesson. Defeated is being used as a verb for Veers, Grievous, Asajj "when an ally/enemy is *defeated*." Whereas Stormtrooper is using defeated as an adjective by looking for *defeated* Empire allies. Unfortunate if that is the case. I do not see Stormtrooper as a result getting the Pao and HRS treatment. Maybe the offense boosts Gideon grants in the lead might do something if Imperials are dying around Stormtrooper but I am not expecting something crazy like Pao and HRS. Thanks for the help guys!
Just saw your screenshots of the mechanics after posting my comment and refreshing the page. For sure that answers the question then and settles the discussion. Totally forgot that SWGoH.gg has the mechanics breakdown. Thanks for the help, Ultra and Kyno!
Yes, but no the difference is in the wording, and they are consistent on this one, across the examples given above:
For each defeated empire ally. - "defeated ally", meaning they are dead at that time.
Vs
When an enemy or ally is defeated - "ally is defeated" - meaning goes through the act of dying, doesnt matter what happens after that point.
From all the examples given and anything we see in thier kits they have consistently used those phrases each time and the abilities have followed suit. This is more clearly used and followed than most other examples of things we see written in kits.
Maybe a Stormtrooper rework is due ...
Wall of Stormtroopers - Unique
Final text: Stormtrooper gains 40% defense for each living ally and 40% offense whenever an ally is defeated.
While Stormtrooper is active, Imperial Trooper allies have +30% defense.
"Stormtrooper counts alive bodies and dead bodies and gives buffs based on those counts.
A killed-then-revived only gets counted as a live body"
So, the question has been answered correctly in the thread here. Well done, y'all
Everythings beat BH why waste gideon here?
I hope so.
and since they're not restricted to empire or troopers he'll be another awesome plug and play char
You just throw him on any team and their damage is automatically cut by half (doesn’t even include the crit / crit dmg reduction)
Im guessing he’s going to have a similar cadence to Hux where Gideon becomes crazy broken and used on nearly every arena team and then ultimately get nerfed so he has to be paired with full empire for his unique to work.
Don't worry, he's WAI and got thoroughly tested. I mean there are plenty of devs working on this game and on top of that there's a whole beta tester program. Right? Right!?
Also a great way to lose money. Offering something and then changing it gets people refunds. Just saying
Not against everyone but close enough.
Bonus/malus are additive and not counted one after another. So if you have +30% offense, you will get 130/2=65 offense, but 100+30-50=80 offense. Still Bad, but not as much
On stream I brought in all Imperial Troopers and not the correct class requirements and I was not getting the appropriate Insight stacks when enemy leaders were taking turns. I understood that I would not get the health and protection bonus but I assumed we satisfied the all Imperial Trooper requirements so I should get the other bonuses.
In case a video reference would help, you can see the question show up at the battle starting at 1:00:45 -
We never got any Insight when an enemy leader takes a turn.
Yes, it seems it could have been worded better but you need to satisfy both clauses:
- specific classes
- all imperial troopers
Both conditions must be met. Somewhere between text review and going live, the word "also" decided to go on vacation. I filed a bug on it and hopefully it'll get updated in a future release.