The Pit Challenge Tier & Relic 8 [MEGA]

Replies

  • TVF
    36526 posts Member
    StarSon wrote: »
    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    When it comes to rewards, this right here hits the nail on the head. Just because I got 35th doesn't mean I put in any less effort or have any less of a roster than the guy at 1st. It just means I had to be the one to drop runs to save the damage for p4. But instead of 11 r8 thingies I get 3? Ridiculous.

    Your guild is still dumping p1-3 runs? I'm sorry to hear that. Mine isn't.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Well while CG is taking their time "analyzing the data" our guild leader decided the extra work for the raid and recruiting to try and fill slots from people quitting because they hate the new raid isn't worth it. So our guild is disbanding.

    So while CG is happy taking their time their lack of communication is negatively affecting the player base.

    I hear you. We just had another guildmate quit the game this morning. The more CG tightens it's grip, the more players slip through their fingers.

    Just had 3 people quit today alone. @CG_Doja_Fett is this the intention of the raid mechanics? Can you ask up the tree please and have someone get back to us when they feel like it?
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    @MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    The direct comparison is Traya shards to Relic 8 ability mats. Raid-exclusive items. Nothing else is directly comparable. Or matters that much in terms of "new content". Comparing RNG raid drops is irrelevant, especially when comparing them to the fixed raid-specific item that ALWAYS drops in those quantities.

    The top ten finishers in Challenge Rancor are able to take, on average, 9 toons to R8 in the time it takes the bottom ten to take one to R8.

    To further the comparison:

    Challenge Rancor - top ten averages 9.1 relic mats, bottom ten fixed at 1. Almost 10-1.

    Sith Raid - top ten averages 7.9 Traya shards, bottom ten fixed at 5. Not even 2-1.

    At the time of release they are raid exclusive (except for possible purchase, I dont directly recall). They retain the same value as a farmed resource over time. They offer development across your full roster. They will eventually be accessible in more locations for farming.

    Pick 2 that fall into the same categories above:
    Shards
    Gear
    Relic mats

    Now explain how relic mats and gear are not the similar items of a rewards bin?

    Uh, that's great and all, except the R8 mats and shards don't come from the rewards bin?? They're independent of the "reward crate", so I'd say they have more in common with each other than with the gear from those crates, since they're only dependent on your position in the raid and not any RNG.
    Kyno wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Kyno: you have stated yourself that the relic mats are what you care about in the rewards. Is 11:1 ratio a flat ratio? No.

    All other gear is perhaps flatter, but it is difficult to compare as RNG affects what gear drops are awarded. Unless there is data shared on drop rates for these gear raid rewards (I could easily be ignorant on the existence of such data), then there is virtually no comparison to possibly be made for gear rewards.

    I don’t think anyone is cherry picking here, it’s just that the gear rewards drop at unknown levels and thus cannot be compared by the community to judge the flatness of drops through the various placements earned/available.

    we can agree to disagree here, but comparing gear to shards seems to be cherry picking.

    If anything, using the 50 gear drop from Sith raids as the standard for comparison because you might get it every once in a while is more cherry picking

    again, if thats the only point that matters, then sure you are right, but you seem to ignore any other comparison as far as usefulness and longevity.

    which is why I went away from using numbers and went with a more generalization. yes the 50 is not as accurate, but it certainly does raise the average that would be gained at that position.

    Aaaaaaand this is exactly why you can’t e generalizations like this. Obviously the average would rise, but by how much? A 95% drop rate for 25 pieces and a 5% drop rate for 50 pieces would average out to 26.25 pieces, while a 70/30 drop rate would average 32.5 pieces. Hardly an inconsequential difference. Do you know what the drop rates are? If not, how are you calculating how much the average rises by?

    And no I’m not ignoring other comparisons, you just haven’t presented any valid evidence to show how you’re making those comparisons without resorting to “feeling” or generalizing. Is it because you don’t have the data and can’t? Why did you ask us to make those comparisons then?

    Your discounting its value which is just as if not more effective to the rise than the drop rate. You do ignore it when you say that gear and relics are not relatable, but shards and relics are, just due to location in the reward structure. The bin of rewards for a player incorporates all the things at one position, not just the stuff in or out of the box.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    The direct comparison is Traya shards to Relic 8 ability mats. Raid-exclusive items. Nothing else is directly comparable. Or matters that much in terms of "new content". Comparing RNG raid drops is irrelevant, especially when comparing them to the fixed raid-specific item that ALWAYS drops in those quantities.

    The top ten finishers in Challenge Rancor are able to take, on average, 9 toons to R8 in the time it takes the bottom ten to take one to R8.

    To further the comparison:

    Challenge Rancor - top ten averages 9.1 relic mats, bottom ten fixed at 1. Almost 10-1.

    Sith Raid - top ten averages 7.9 Traya shards, bottom ten fixed at 5. Not even 2-1.

    At the time of release they are raid exclusive (except for possible purchase, I dont directly recall). They retain the same value as a farmed resource over time. They offer development across your full roster. They will eventually be accessible in more locations for farming.

    Pick 2 that fall into the same categories above:
    Shards
    Gear
    Relic mats

    Now explain how relic mats and gear are not the similar items of a rewards bin?

    Uh, that's great and all, except the R8 mats and shards don't come from the rewards bin?? They're independent of the "reward crate", so I'd say they have more in common with each other than with the gear from those crates, since they're only dependent on your position in the raid and not any RNG.
    Kyno wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Kyno: you have stated yourself that the relic mats are what you care about in the rewards. Is 11:1 ratio a flat ratio? No.

    All other gear is perhaps flatter, but it is difficult to compare as RNG affects what gear drops are awarded. Unless there is data shared on drop rates for these gear raid rewards (I could easily be ignorant on the existence of such data), then there is virtually no comparison to possibly be made for gear rewards.

    I don’t think anyone is cherry picking here, it’s just that the gear rewards drop at unknown levels and thus cannot be compared by the community to judge the flatness of drops through the various placements earned/available.

    we can agree to disagree here, but comparing gear to shards seems to be cherry picking.

    If anything, using the 50 gear drop from Sith raids as the standard for comparison because you might get it every once in a while is more cherry picking

    again, if thats the only point that matters, then sure you are right, but you seem to ignore any other comparison as far as usefulness and longevity.

    which is why I went away from using numbers and went with a more generalization. yes the 50 is not as accurate, but it certainly does raise the average that would be gained at that position.

    Aaaaaaand this is exactly why you can’t e generalizations like this. Obviously the average would rise, but by how much? A 95% drop rate for 25 pieces and a 5% drop rate for 50 pieces would average out to 26.25 pieces, while a 70/30 drop rate would average 32.5 pieces. Hardly an inconsequential difference. Do you know what the drop rates are? If not, how are you calculating how much the average rises by?

    And no I’m not ignoring other comparisons, you just haven’t presented any valid evidence to show how you’re making those comparisons without resorting to “feeling” or generalizing. Is it because you don’t have the data and can’t? Why did you ask us to make those comparisons then?

    Your discounting its value which is just as if not more effective to the rise than the drop rate. You do ignore it when you say that gear and relics are not relatable, but shards and relics are, just due to location in the reward structure. The bin of rewards for a player incorporates all the things at one position, not just the stuff in or out of the box.

    And the first bin says it has the best chance at full pieces and it diminishes after 5th and through subsequent ranks with "a small chance" at 40-50. How does that help flatten rewards?
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    @MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    I'm not against raid competition and non flat structures. I can also do fine with how tw/tb works as well.

    Though if there's a competition, this raid doesn't work as is because you can't even put in extra work until you get higher percentages like how hstr was and it's quite possible you can be asked to save x team for some phase because it works better that way for the guild (by the very design of the raid) but results in a worse standing for you. Cg was very right to try to put a stop to phase solos, until they gave that up and slkr solo which causes a raid solo tie for sometimes more than 30 people should have never happened.

    Hopefully CRancy made it impossible for full raid solos even in far future, but for that %20 triggers only working each player is more than enough.

    I'm in a quite whaley guild right now where many people have all gls (I don't), most don't even try to go for the top spot because it's both too time consuming and stressful due to the weird way they are making us play this things (which is imo very ungamey as well). The ones that are top 10 are the ones who managed to perfectly play all phases upon the 4 gl owners.

    Anyway, as majority perceives the relic mats the main allure of this raid, it's not flatter whatsoever, the disparity is huge in terms what most consider the main value.

    I want better gear or currency to buy gear instead and the junk gear in the pool to be cleaned off, while I'm fine being both in the high or low amount of relic mat receiving. -The other new relic mat- which is not even involved in the reward pools is the most major thing the introduction of this raid brought upon us which will have long term impact. Since both the pools and amounts of gear we are receiving is awful, it doesn't matter if that part is flatter, it's flatter on low values while the new need it caused is very high (remember this magic number, 284 pieces of gear)
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    The direct comparison is Traya shards to Relic 8 ability mats. Raid-exclusive items. Nothing else is directly comparable. Or matters that much in terms of "new content". Comparing RNG raid drops is irrelevant, especially when comparing them to the fixed raid-specific item that ALWAYS drops in those quantities.

    The top ten finishers in Challenge Rancor are able to take, on average, 9 toons to R8 in the time it takes the bottom ten to take one to R8.

    To further the comparison:

    Challenge Rancor - top ten averages 9.1 relic mats, bottom ten fixed at 1. Almost 10-1.

    Sith Raid - top ten averages 7.9 Traya shards, bottom ten fixed at 5. Not even 2-1.

    At the time of release they are raid exclusive (except for possible purchase, I dont directly recall). They retain the same value as a farmed resource over time. They offer development across your full roster. They will eventually be accessible in more locations for farming.

    Pick 2 that fall into the same categories above:
    Shards
    Gear
    Relic mats

    Now explain how relic mats and gear are not the similar items of a rewards bin?

    Uh, that's great and all, except the R8 mats and shards don't come from the rewards bin?? They're independent of the "reward crate", so I'd say they have more in common with each other than with the gear from those crates, since they're only dependent on your position in the raid and not any RNG.
    Kyno wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Kyno: you have stated yourself that the relic mats are what you care about in the rewards. Is 11:1 ratio a flat ratio? No.

    All other gear is perhaps flatter, but it is difficult to compare as RNG affects what gear drops are awarded. Unless there is data shared on drop rates for these gear raid rewards (I could easily be ignorant on the existence of such data), then there is virtually no comparison to possibly be made for gear rewards.

    I don’t think anyone is cherry picking here, it’s just that the gear rewards drop at unknown levels and thus cannot be compared by the community to judge the flatness of drops through the various placements earned/available.

    we can agree to disagree here, but comparing gear to shards seems to be cherry picking.

    If anything, using the 50 gear drop from Sith raids as the standard for comparison because you might get it every once in a while is more cherry picking

    again, if thats the only point that matters, then sure you are right, but you seem to ignore any other comparison as far as usefulness and longevity.

    which is why I went away from using numbers and went with a more generalization. yes the 50 is not as accurate, but it certainly does raise the average that would be gained at that position.

    Aaaaaaand this is exactly why you can’t e generalizations like this. Obviously the average would rise, but by how much? A 95% drop rate for 25 pieces and a 5% drop rate for 50 pieces would average out to 26.25 pieces, while a 70/30 drop rate would average 32.5 pieces. Hardly an inconsequential difference. Do you know what the drop rates are? If not, how are you calculating how much the average rises by?

    And no I’m not ignoring other comparisons, you just haven’t presented any valid evidence to show how you’re making those comparisons without resorting to “feeling” or generalizing. Is it because you don’t have the data and can’t? Why did you ask us to make those comparisons then?

    Your discounting its value which is just as if not more effective to the rise than the drop rate. You do ignore it when you say that gear and relics are not relatable, but shards and relics are, just due to location in the reward structure. The bin of rewards for a player incorporates all the things at one position, not just the stuff in or out of the box.

    We are not relating Traya shards to relic mats because of the placement in the reward structure. That's how cg intended it, if you don't believe me, ask them. Those are the premium items both raids are presenting at the time of each raids release. It didn't end up being placed at the top because of sheer dumb luck or graphical design missight.

    While as you said traya shards became worthless, at the time it was the money maker, arena topping depended on it. This is neither cherry picking or is arbitrary, your crossing streams is what's arbitrary because that's the only way of slicing that can possibly fit your cg defense argument. S

    ince you are the one saying relic mats are what's important in CRancy, even in totality of the rewards perspective you can't just shoo them off as a minor part of the rewards which just gets mixed in the 40-60 other stuff we are getting. In totality hstr rewards are very curved on placement(since g12+ is also important and traya shards have zero value now), so are crancy rewards (if relic mats are more important than gear rewards)
  • "Would you like to submit 4,123,456 (12%) damage? Yes/No"

    Make it so. Currently it is terrible user experience to immediately post damage and no need for data. Airplane mode also terrible experience and when someone makes an honest mistake it is terrible user experience for everyone.

    Also no excuses here, a confirmation screen is trivial to implement. So why hasn't been done so?

    It is things like this that get ignored, remain unanswered, nothing being done that makes the community furious.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    @MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    Fair enough. Glad we finally understand each other.

    If you combined the top 10 G12+ inflation with the coordination required for this raid, I'd probably just cry and start browsing the app store for a new addiction.
  • Reward structure aside, is this Kyno's thread or Doja's?
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
  • CaptainRex
    2840 posts Member
    edited January 2021
    One of our UK guys with kids decided to set his alarm for 2:30am and spent an hour trying to help us clear this thing, and I currently feel awful for accepting his damage.
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
  • Although I am not in a guild that beats it I am somewhat fine with it. I understand that the devs need to also provide a challenge for the most endgame players. However, I find really disapointing about the raid is that it doesen't come with another character or lower tiers (i.e. g12/R3 requirement).
  • CaptainRex wrote: »
    One of our UK guys with kids decided to set his alarm for 2:30am and spent an hour trying to help us clear this thing, and I currently feel awful for accepting his damage.

    CG: This is the way....now buy this $55 pack
  • HTWarrior wrote: »
    Although I am not in a guild that beats it I am somewhat fine with it. I understand that the devs need to also provide a challenge for the most endgame players. However, I find really disapointing about the raid is that it doesen't come with another character or lower tiers (i.e. g12/R3 requirement).

    The difficulty, aka the challenge is fine.

    The mass coordination due to their shortsighted and ill designed mechanics that force people in guilds like CaptainRex above, to have to wake up at 230am to help clear it.
  • there is nothing to a talk about: the raid mechanism with all the coordination, guild member friction, and rage quit are simple pathetic. It's so clear that a mobile game can't works in this way (people have also real life, do you remember this dear CG?) And this raid is the only way to get r8. Of course also the rewards are (sarcasm on) a "little unfair", why not to use the TB logic?
  • And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    edited January 2021
    HTWarrior wrote: »
    Although I am not in a guild that beats it I am somewhat fine with it. I understand that the devs need to also provide a challenge for the most endgame players. However, I find really disapointing about the raid is that it doesen't come with another character or lower tiers (i.e. g12/R3 requirement).

    But the "challenge" of the raid has nothing to do with content and everything to do with schedule coordination.

    I'm all up for a difficult challenge, but not a fan of being dictated to buy CG that I have to play only when at least 10-12 other members of my guild, spread across multiple time zones, can play. That's not a game challenge - that's a real-life logistical nightmare.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    CaptainRex wrote: »
    Reward structure aside, is this Kyno's thread or Doja's?

    @CG_Doja_Fett
    eqk8vbv8yp7l.png
  • CaptainRex wrote: »
    Reward structure aside, is this Kyno's thread or Doja's?

    Why does it matter? It's not like they both have to be on at the exact same time to respond to make the thread work....
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • StarSon
    7411 posts Member
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    CaptainRex wrote: »
    Reward structure aside, is this Kyno's thread or Doja's?

    Why does it matter? It's not like they both have to be on at the exact same time to respond to make the thread work....

    Except Kyno is under no obligation to reply as he's merely expressing his own opinion except the rare times he actually delivers info.
  • StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    This. So much this. Folks like to complain about carbs, guns, and cuffs. But end game players should be able to stay on top of those via challenges, guild store, GET1, and shard shop.

    G12 gear has become my biggest choke point, along with Kyros.
  • StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    This. So much this. Folks like to complain about carbs, guns, and cuffs. But end game players should be able to stay on top of those via challenges, guild store, GET1, and shard shop.

    G12 gear has become my biggest choke point, along with Kyros.

    Same. It's not like I have thousands in stock of any of the old gear blocks. But when I go into a run to relic 3-4 new toons, they easily melt through currencies and with no investment (=crystal farming or buying from shops) before g12+ and kyros. I'd rather keep relicing things than r8ing anything for the foreseeable future to come (until they are hard requirement for something).
  • I lead a guild and Saturday we finished the Challenge Pit Raid for the first time. It was a great achievement. Now today we will launch it again. I am not excited to do this again. To do this level of coordination over and over again is going to be pure burnout. I hope CG is listening to the feedback.
  • TVF
    36526 posts Member
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • I lead a guild and Saturday we finished the Challenge Pit Raid for the first time. It was a great achievement. Now today we will launch it again. I am not excited to do this again. To do this level of coordination over and over again is going to be pure burnout. I hope CG is listening to the feedback.

    So what you’re saying is that IT IS NOT THE DIFFICULTY, but the UNIVERSAL STACKING MECHANICS of the raid.....interesting. I think I heard that before....

    (Caps to make a point so no dev could try and say they misunderstood what we the players want)
  • TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Good for you? He didn't say he couldn't do it. He said he wouldn't. So he's specifically stating he won't because of resource management.

    So what was the point of your post besides bragging?
  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    While your point is not necessarily wrong about resource management, I believe the post you were responding to had more nuance than just this aspect. “Not a stat boost commensurate with its cost”...

    Also, off topic, I find your “resource management” comment quite funny coming from the guy with a profile pic lighting a cigar with $100 bill. I just got a chuckle is all.
  • TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Would love to see your roster and what you’ve prioritized
  • TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    As if you are f2p xD
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