The Pit Challenge Tier & Relic 8 [MEGA]

Replies

  • Ravens1113 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Would love to see your roster and what you’ve prioritized

    https://swgoh.gg/p/279847465/

    MaruMaru wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    As if you are f2p xD

    I don't have any trouble believing he's f2p.
  • Ravens1113 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Would love to see your roster and what you’ve prioritized

    https://swgoh.gg/p/279847465/

    MaruMaru wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    As if you are f2p xD

    I don't have any trouble believing he's f2p.

    Except he said he's not numerous times. Not that he can't possibly be.
  • MaruMaru wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Would love to see your roster and what you’ve prioritized

    https://swgoh.gg/p/279847465/

    MaruMaru wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    As if you are f2p xD

    I don't have any trouble believing he's f2p.

    Except he said he's not numerous times. Not that he can't possibly be.

    Well, I did not know that XD
  • TVF
    36519 posts Member
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    While your point is not necessarily wrong about resource management, I believe the post you were responding to had more nuance than just this aspect. “Not a stat boost commensurate with its cost”...

    Also, off topic, I find your “resource management” comment quite funny coming from the guy with a profile pic lighting a cigar with $100 bill. I just got a chuckle is all.

    I was only responding to the high demand claim.

    Glad you chuckled at the avatar
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    lets stay on topic please.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    lets stay on topic please.

    Would be nice if the devs would respond to this topic but...you know...back to the good ol’ radio silence.
  • Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    lets stay on topic please.

    Would be nice if the devs would respond to this topic but...you know...back to the good ol’ radio silence.

    No money in it...
  • Honestly, I like the idea of injecting new ways to play and the coordination can be fun. However, the global threshold mechanic (or however you describe it) is a major miss and requires too much coordination to manage. (I will skip over rewards, for now...)
    My guild has beat it 3 times now. The first win was a major/milestone and felt good. However, we are international guild and it is a mess trying to coordinate damage. Nobody is really looking forward to our next attempt, which is a shame with new content.
    Players have lives and our time zones make it even more crazy. We actually lost a couple members and a fellow officer because of the stress of coordination. Life > Game
  • And is it worth repeating a million times that the community thought this new raid was ****?
    Is the community going to keep saying that the TW / GAC Pairing system is completely broken, practically defining whether you win or lose a battle?
    Is it worth mentioning that the launch of the legends was a fiasco?

    Do they know all these opinions, and do you know what changes? Nothing.
    Let us pray that the current producer will find an even better job and resign from capital games.
  • camper288 wrote: »
    And is it worth repeating a million times that the community thought this new raid was ****?
    Is the community going to keep saying that the TW / GAC Pairing system is completely broken, practically defining whether you win or lose a battle?
    Is it worth mentioning that the launch of the legends was a fiasco?

    Do they know all these opinions, and do you know what changes? Nothing.
    Let us pray that the current producer will find an even better job and resign from capital games.

    Doubtful. Gets paid to do absolutely nothing. He sure as heck doesn’t communicate with the community at all. Gotta love someone who thinks he’s too good to address his player base/ paying customers even once. #FireMarkBringBackCarrie
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    @MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way @Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering
  • camper288 wrote: »
    Is the community going to keep saying that the TW / GAC Pairing system is completely broken, practically defining whether you win or lose a battle?
    Well this just might be the reason then. It's hard to take relevant feedback (Subpar Pit rewards, coordination) seriously when GAC matchmaking being broken is parroted in an endless loop, when it's not even true.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.
  • Iy4oy4s
    2923 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    How is that not flat?
  • Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    How is that not flat?

    See, it's not flat. This is how graphs are done, no units needed.

    joauhrb8b63n.png
  • If he can’t see that is flatter than the garbage they are trying to shove down our throats as flattened then he is just blind. That is clearly a flatter distribution. Guess I’ll hear the world is flat from CG.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    How is that not flat?

    Do you mean flatter, because that is flatter than any of the rewards that we see in our raids. 100%.

    But flat would mean that 1 and 12 in this case get the same thing. Unless I'm mistaken, how do you define flat in this case?
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    IronCross wrote: »
    ... That is clearly a flatter distribution. ...

    This is 1000% correct. It is also 100% not what was said.
  • TVF
    36519 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    IronCross wrote: »
    ... That is clearly a flatter distribution. ...

    This is 1000% correct. It is also 100% not what was said.

    What accounts for the 900% difference though?
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    Oh I’d love to hear this one. Can you explain to me how that’s not a flat reward structure?
  • Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    Oh I’d love to hear this one. Can you explain to me how that’s not a flat reward structure?

    Because he'd have to admit he is wrong.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    Oh I’d love to hear this one. Can you explain to me how that’s not a flat reward structure?

    Because if you want to call it flat it has to have 0 slope from one end to the other.

    If you want to call it flatter, then we agree.
  • StarSon
    7411 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    Oh I’d love to hear this one. Can you explain to me how that’s not a flat reward structure?

    Because if you want to call it flat it has to have 0 slope from one end to the other.

    If you want to call it flatter, then we agree.

    If it has a zero slope it's just the same rewards, not flat rewards, at least in the context of this entire thread.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    Oh I’d love to hear this one. Can you explain to me how that’s not a flat reward structure?

    Because if you want to call it flat it has to have 0 slope from one end to the other.

    If you want to call it flatter, then we agree.

    If it has a zero slope it's just the same rewards, not flat rewards, at least in the context of this entire thread.

    Yes, the same rewards across the board would be a flat rewards structure. Anyone talking about flat rewards in this thread is misrepresenting what was said, which was "flatter".

    Those rewards shown in that picture are flatter than anything we see in this game, but it is not a flat reward structure.

    But we can agree to disagree, and discuss it from a point of equity for the players in the guild to help further the conversation. The removal of the top 10 full piece (which was a point of concern at the beginning and later when solos and easier top scores came around), was removed to reduce friction, but seems to not be as effective according to much of this conversation. Do you agree?
  • TW/TB = Flat
    Raid rewards (No Sim) Not Flat
    Raid rewards (Sim) = Flat
    Example from MSF = almost flat

    HSith and CPit = not flat ( by comparing unique main reward)

    CG stating cPit rewards are flatter must be using the total reward pool in their argument. However based on the RNG factor this cannot be proved as much of the rewards are garbage. A word to the wise is to make sure you consider the unique reward in the flatter discussion/calculation.

    Kyno trying to defend all this and hiding behind semantics (along with CG having him languish on the vine) = priceless

  • StarSon
    7411 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Yes, the same rewards across the board would be a flat rewards structure. Anyone talking about flat rewards in this thread is misrepresenting what was said, which was "flatter".

    Those rewards shown in that picture are flatter than anything we see in this game, but it is not a flat reward structure.

    But we can agree to disagree, and discuss it from a point of equity for the players in the guild to help further the conversation. The removal of the top 10 full piece (which was a point of concern at the beginning and later when solos and easier top scores came around), was removed to reduce friction, but seems to not be as effective according to much of this conversation. Do you agree?

    STR is a false equivalency here. You can get full pieces in the STR outside of top 10, just not the g12 gear. So sure, every place gets the same loot table in their boxes, but the distribution so far is so out of whack you can't say it's flatter or not flatter than any other raid's reward structure. And obviously the "raid exclusive" portion does not resemble anything flat.

    Also, you and they keep saying "to reduce friction" but this raid has caused the most friction of anything yet, so if that was their intent in any way, shape, or form, they have failed MISERABLY. Continuing to defend them does not endear you to anyone.
  • RTS
    682 posts Member
    Jakdnels wrote: »
    I would think they would try to learn from past issues that that they introduced through new guild content which caused guilds to break up. I see a lot of posts that indicate that their guild is the primary reason people keep playing the game. Disrupting that seems counter intuitive to growth and game stability.

    Guilds broke up over Rancor raid, HAAT, and a lot of guilds broke up over HSTR when it was released.

    His point is that it happens regardless of what the content is, if it's challenging enough.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    Oh I’d love to hear this one. Can you explain to me how that’s not a flat reward structure?

    Because if you want to call it flat it has to have 0 slope from one end to the other.

    If you want to call it flatter, then we agree.

    Lmao ok, so on your arguments flat is ok but when I say it we play semantics. Gotcha.

    Well then, the example I gave, shows zero friction. There’s a slight difference in rewards but not by much. I could take first every single time in that alliance if I wanted. However because others are building their rosters and need the extra rewards, I have no issues sitting back and letting them get the little extra stuff because it doesn’t hinder my progress really. There’s no friction.

    The raids in SWGOH do not even come close to that. The original rancor raid was the closest to frictionless we have. The original structure of HSTR where any rank could get full G12 pieces came close too but you know, CG did CG things and made it worse and terrible outside of rank 10. Also added in tank gear too even though we have plenty of tank gear from the tank raid.

    Bottom line, rewards are not even close to flat. CG has lots to fix in their game.
  • RTS wrote: »
    Jakdnels wrote: »
    I would think they would try to learn from past issues that that they introduced through new guild content which caused guilds to break up. I see a lot of posts that indicate that their guild is the primary reason people keep playing the game. Disrupting that seems counter intuitive to growth and game stability.

    Guilds broke up over Rancor raid, HAAT, and a lot of guilds broke up over HSTR when it was released.

    His point is that it happens regardless of what the content is, if it's challenging enough.

    Maybe they should try harder if their intent is to "reduce in-guild friction."


    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success
  • RTS wrote: »
    Jakdnels wrote: »
    I would think they would try to learn from past issues that that they introduced through new guild content which caused guilds to break up. I see a lot of posts that indicate that their guild is the primary reason people keep playing the game. Disrupting that seems counter intuitive to growth and game stability.

    Guilds broke up over Rancor raid, HAAT, and a lot of guilds broke up over HSTR when it was released.

    His point is that it happens regardless of what the content is, if it's challenging enough.

    Rancor and HAAT predate TW/TB. As such, the guild community wasn't as tight as I would argue it is now. So I don't think that's a fair comparison.

    HSR broke guilds up because guilds decided whether they wanted to be more casual or more competitive.

    cPit is breaking guilds up because some folks have to pick up their kids or be at work or whatever IRL during the only windows where the rest of the guild is doing a coordinated push. That is unprecedented. That is why people are upset.
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