SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.
  • AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.

    SEE is great on offence - no argument there.
  • AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    Yeah, we saw where see is in arena meta in time, constantly rising and currently the 3rd most used gl for high crystal income. It's now getting reasonably comparable to 2nd most used= %15 vs %20 in top 1 and %14 vs. %21 for top 10. Meanwhile jml is by far the best defense option...which is due to the non faction, dark side wat usage xD
  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.
  • Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • TVF
    36528 posts Member
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.

    SEE is great on offence - no argument there.

    There are a lot of threads that have poorly constructed points. Multiple ones every day.

    This one stands out for how many pages it has, for no good reason.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.

    SEE is great on offence - no argument there.

    There are a lot of threads that have poorly constructed points. Multiple ones every day.

    This one stands out for how many pages it has, for no good reason.

    Echo chambers have a lot of reverb. ;)

    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    All these are legitimate points. But the see pushers gotta come in terms that the arena meta argument doesn't hold water anymore.

    In all past metas whether there was more than one viable team or not, there can be one best defensive option, all the viable teams can't possibly sit on that throne by the very logic of it.
  • AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.

    SEE is great on offence - no argument there.

    You’ve been here a while so you know all this. That question gave me an idea I think a quick summary of this thread would be helpful.

    The original point was SEE is not as viable as the other GL’s and needs improvements.

    First we discussed if he was, in fact ,less viable than the other GL’s and over time I think most people agreed this was true. At least he has some issues.

    Then we discussed what areas need attention. This is still debated but Kyno has relayed what areas matter to CG. In my opinion thats where we should focus.

    After that players started posting more focused videos and data in an attempt to show their concerns where valid.

    At this point Doja came in and said he had in listed players to compile data to make the best case to the devs.

    And now we wait.

    While waiting something interesting happened. A toon dropped that unexpectedly gave SEE an offensive boost.

    It’s clear this boost ads value. While myself and others would have preferred them fixing some of his defensive liabilities an argument could be made he is now so good on offense it over comes his defense liabilities. I think thats fair (even I don’t like that route). The other thing being discussed revolves around synergy. Does SEE’s offensive paralysis mean he’s just as viable as the other 3 GL’s if that viability requires 2 very solid support toons that could be used else where or a team with 1 support toon with 0 character synergy and a counter team

    You could argue that it does. I am of the opinion that it’s a lot to ask and the benefits help SEE as much as they do, because SEE needs that much help. I’ve always felt SEE’s kit was purposely restricted. As if minor adjustments caused imbalance. For this and other reason I’ve been in support of a new toon that pairs well with him. A Malak as some have suggested. What we got/have is interesting. The Armorer helps SEE ways players didn’t expect and highlights another issue they have which, his team synergy.
  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.


    I wouldn’t even say he’s “bad” on defense. He’s just a liability. Ignoring The Armorer for second.

    The data I’ve looked at shows he’s pretty good on defense. The issue is where he’s bad he’s BAD. Being solo’d by the very toons you’re meant to compete against and having a very reliable F2P counter that works at low gear is a pretty big liability. It’s one thing to have a F2P counter it’s another thing for that counter to have a near perfect success rate even at low gear. That said when you factor in soloing and the reliability of a F2P counter thats going to weigh down is defensive viability. Making him look worse he is. A little RNG would go a long way here.

    To be fair SLKR is also called an “Attacker”. He’s able to be both good on offense and defense.

    Now lets bring the Armorer back in. She changes things. She makes the argument “He’s so good on offense it makes up for his defensive liabilities” have some merit. As I said I think the road to get there requires a lot of patches. To use that analogy it’s like looking at 3 new tires and then 1 tire with a bunch of patches but is “All Terrain” ( I know nothing about tires btw lol). Yeah those patches make it useable and it’s cool it can do something’s the others don’t, but it’s still a bad tire. You can throw the patches on the newer tires too. It will even make them stronger (analogy is breaking down) but it’s not a great solution to the problem. One of these tires has holes.

    As for raids. I wish he was better. He’s not. CG didn’t design him to be good in raids. That’s unfortunate. I don’t like it. It’s also reality. 100% we should move on.
  • He is the first GL I unlocked, solely because of my loyalty to the dark side. I don't have ult on him yet, but he is pretty effective against JML, JKLS, and other teams like DR, JKR, and the rest of the old teams. I'm holding a stable rank of 60-50 in the arena.

    I believe he needs a little tweak though, as Rey and SLKR can easily 1v1 him. He is an excellent addition to an offensive roster though and can get you lots of banners in GAC if used properly.

    I'm going to test him out on DS Geo TB soon but I have good feelings there.

    Also, for raids, to my disappointment, I wouldn't recommend him. He just lacks the kind of synergy needed for there. A simple DR team can do millions of more damage than his recommended team setup.

    Overall, I have him for like 3 weeks now and his main usefulness is until rank 50 in the arena, and more specialized for GAC on offense and Geo TB. Other GLs have a better value on all other aspects of the game so I think a little boost should be done to Gucci Palpatine and not just a game of RNG until he can use Ultimate Power. Curious, and I hope CG will consider something for him.
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    JML lead doesnt need Wat. JKR lead is used more because its probably the second best leadership in the game, right after SLKR.
    SEE lead doesnt do anything for his team aside from the speed buff. 5% stacking mastery amounts to nothing. The heal from defeated allies is extremely lackluster, since it literally does nothing against teams who focuses on single target damage and isnt even that helpfull against teams with big AoEs since your teammates get no survivability at all and so many times gets killed as a group. The only reason people use SEE lead is because he needs it to reach his ultimate, which (unlike JML) hes practically useless without. This is the reason why the best SEE teams we see now are essentially SEE solos with Wat or armorer, since putting any sith with SEE is a futile effort. While JML is by no means perfect and should be tweaked to be the go to leader for is team, SEEs design as a sith is a complete and utter failure.

    SEE is not "a complete and utter failure". When you put it like that, nobody will take it seriously. Rather, he's a bit lacklustre in several areas and needs some tweaks to give him real strength. Nothing huge, he just needs to be properly viable.

    I think you missed "design as a sith" that came right before that statement, which I stand wholeheartedly by.

    You think I somehow missed that SEE is supposed to be a sith leader? I have nearly every sith at r7, the only one I don't have at relic levels is SET, and let me tell you SEE has been a relatively good lead for sith, and he does bring quite a bit to literally any sith you put him with. It's just that he could, and therefore should be better. He's not terrible. He's just lacking. And he still definitely needs some sort of fix.

    Tell me any sith in the game that gains a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership, or work better under SEE than other Sith leaders. Triumverate work 5 times better under Traya or EP lead, Vader works way better under EP or his own lead, Drevan works better under his own lead and EP lead and bastilla works better under Drevan and EP. Sion literally gets nerfed under SEE.
    A R7 tank will get 5000 protection from the 50% mastery in his leadership, and an additional 550 every time an enemy uses an ability. Seeing how easy it is to reach 100 k protection with most tanks, a straight up 15% protection boost at the start of the game would be 10 times more usefull. Most good sith like Drevan and nihlius dont even get any meaningfull stats from mastery, and Drevan have no dmg outside of Drevan lead regardless. As Ive mentioned earlier the heal from defeated enemies is useless against teams focusing on single target dmg, and doesnt help all that much against teams with big AoEs either since youll lose multiple characters at once due to them not getting any survivability.
    Ive got every sith reliced, including SET, and have Traya, Sion, Vader, Malak, Sidious, Marauder and EP R7, and i cant think of any sith that gets a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership aside from the speed boost.
  • Decado wrote: »
    @Hermitthedruid So youve been saying all along that SEE is fine and doesnt need a buff?
    Lets break this down then. Currently
    - Offensive 'powerhouse'
    - Defensive liability
    - Bad at raids
    - On par at TB
    - AB value is irrelevant tbh. Rey doesnt have one. Theres a comp with SEE that can beat it, but he doesnt need to be used to do so. JML isnt needed for the Jedi one either, JKL lead does the heavy lifting.

    Pre-Armorer SEE was good on offense yes. Still had a pretty rough go for beating SLKR, so I wouldnt really say he did much better than any other GL on offense, though was just ahead of everyone else due to SEE/Wat beating some Reys and all the JMLs.

    Post-Armorer there is no doubt or reason to say he is not the hands down strongest offensive character in the game. So strong it essentially makes him valuable enough there to cover for his weaknesses in my opinion.

    Are you really going to do the "I told you so" thing when his weaknesses are only being negated by fantastic performance after a marquee was released about 4 months after SEE was? Like.....dude....what kind of logic is that? Does the release of Armorer make his last 4 months magically better? Do I get my money back for unlocking SEE 3 months before Armorer was released making him a good character?

    As is, there is no way to justify and changes that end up buffing SEE, whether they be outright buffs or changes to his mechanics unless they gate Armorer to not work with him, like making her LS or Mando restricted which would make a hell of a lot of sense. SEE is in a pretty good spot even if I hate the way they did it, and hate playing battles with Tank Tech or Beskar Armor.

    Relax bro, lol, I was just gloating about Lord Dunbar changing his mind about SEE, that’s all.

    But since you brought it up, SEE has performed great for everyone in my shard chat leading up to the Armorer, so no, not everyone was disappointed by SEE pre-Armorer. Iirc, CG seems to think so too, given what Kyno relayed to us.😛
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    JML lead doesnt need Wat. JKR lead is used more because its probably the second best leadership in the game, right after SLKR.
    SEE lead doesnt do anything for his team aside from the speed buff. 5% stacking mastery amounts to nothing. The heal from defeated allies is extremely lackluster, since it literally does nothing against teams who focuses on single target damage and isnt even that helpfull against teams with big AoEs since your teammates get no survivability at all and so many times gets killed as a group. The only reason people use SEE lead is because he needs it to reach his ultimate, which (unlike JML) hes practically useless without. This is the reason why the best SEE teams we see now are essentially SEE solos with Wat or armorer, since putting any sith with SEE is a futile effort. While JML is by no means perfect and should be tweaked to be the go to leader for is team, SEEs design as a sith is a complete and utter failure.

    SEE is not "a complete and utter failure". When you put it like that, nobody will take it seriously. Rather, he's a bit lacklustre in several areas and needs some tweaks to give him real strength. Nothing huge, he just needs to be properly viable.

    I think you missed "design as a sith" that came right before that statement, which I stand wholeheartedly by.

    You think I somehow missed that SEE is supposed to be a sith leader? I have nearly every sith at r7, the only one I don't have at relic levels is SET, and let me tell you SEE has been a relatively good lead for sith, and he does bring quite a bit to literally any sith you put him with. It's just that he could, and therefore should be better. He's not terrible. He's just lacking. And he still definitely needs some sort of fix.
    Ive got every sith reliced, including SET, and have Traya, Sion, Vader, Malak, Sidious, Marauder and EP R7, and i cant think of any sith that gets a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership aside from the speed boost.
    It's not just about who gets what boost from the lead. SEE lead with Triumvirate is superior to Traya teams, even if the Triumvirate itself synergises better under Traya lead.

    In most top-end TWs SEE is the wildcard at this point, whether he is set on defense or held for offense can determine the outcone of the war if the opponent just guesses wrong how you plan to use your SEE.

    SEE lead with Triumverate is better than Traya teams because theres a GL in it. If it wasnt then boy would he have issues. Hell, Geonosians actually do better against SEE lead Triumverate than Traya lead.
  • Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.
  • MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    I guess you'll say it's anecdotal but Rey is still punching high in my arena shard. I'd much rather fight JML than her. I can beat her, yes, but it's edge-of-your-pants area. Never had a clean win versus her.
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    JML lead doesnt need Wat. JKR lead is used more because its probably the second best leadership in the game, right after SLKR.
    SEE lead doesnt do anything for his team aside from the speed buff. 5% stacking mastery amounts to nothing. The heal from defeated allies is extremely lackluster, since it literally does nothing against teams who focuses on single target damage and isnt even that helpfull against teams with big AoEs since your teammates get no survivability at all and so many times gets killed as a group. The only reason people use SEE lead is because he needs it to reach his ultimate, which (unlike JML) hes practically useless without. This is the reason why the best SEE teams we see now are essentially SEE solos with Wat or armorer, since putting any sith with SEE is a futile effort. While JML is by no means perfect and should be tweaked to be the go to leader for is team, SEEs design as a sith is a complete and utter failure.

    SEE is not "a complete and utter failure". When you put it like that, nobody will take it seriously. Rather, he's a bit lacklustre in several areas and needs some tweaks to give him real strength. Nothing huge, he just needs to be properly viable.

    I think you missed "design as a sith" that came right before that statement, which I stand wholeheartedly by.

    You think I somehow missed that SEE is supposed to be a sith leader? I have nearly every sith at r7, the only one I don't have at relic levels is SET, and let me tell you SEE has been a relatively good lead for sith, and he does bring quite a bit to literally any sith you put him with. It's just that he could, and therefore should be better. He's not terrible. He's just lacking. And he still definitely needs some sort of fix.
    Ive got every sith reliced, including SET, and have Traya, Sion, Vader, Malak, Sidious, Marauder and EP R7, and i cant think of any sith that gets a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership aside from the speed boost.
    It's not just about who gets what boost from the lead. SEE lead with Triumvirate is superior to Traya teams, even if the Triumvirate itself synergises better under Traya lead.

    In most top-end TWs SEE is the wildcard at this point, whether he is set on defense or held for offense can determine the outcone of the war if the opponent just guesses wrong how you plan to use your SEE.

    SEE lead with Triumverate is better than Traya teams because theres a GL in it. If it wasnt then boy would he have issues. Hell, Geonosians actually do better against SEE lead Triumverate than Traya lead.

    I've seen some strange and "unique" points in this thread, but "if SEE wasn't a GL he'd be less good" is certainly a new spin. I agree - SEE is better as a GL than he would be if he wasn't a GL.

    I'm not really sure what that even means, but I'll give you that.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    I guess you'll say it's anecdotal but Rey is still punching high in my arena shard. I'd much rather fight JML than her. I can beat her, yes, but it's edge-of-your-pants area. Never had a clean win versus her.

    Your 1 wat only, high rey arena is obviously not the norm by the token of statistics. Is it a relatively new shard?
  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.
  • Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?
  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.
  • Although it really, really should it’s not going to happen lmao. CG REALLY need to just confirm that and shut this thread down
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    JML lead doesnt need Wat. JKR lead is used more because its probably the second best leadership in the game, right after SLKR.
    SEE lead doesnt do anything for his team aside from the speed buff. 5% stacking mastery amounts to nothing. The heal from defeated allies is extremely lackluster, since it literally does nothing against teams who focuses on single target damage and isnt even that helpfull against teams with big AoEs since your teammates get no survivability at all and so many times gets killed as a group. The only reason people use SEE lead is because he needs it to reach his ultimate, which (unlike JML) hes practically useless without. This is the reason why the best SEE teams we see now are essentially SEE solos with Wat or armorer, since putting any sith with SEE is a futile effort. While JML is by no means perfect and should be tweaked to be the go to leader for is team, SEEs design as a sith is a complete and utter failure.

    SEE is not "a complete and utter failure". When you put it like that, nobody will take it seriously. Rather, he's a bit lacklustre in several areas and needs some tweaks to give him real strength. Nothing huge, he just needs to be properly viable.

    I think you missed "design as a sith" that came right before that statement, which I stand wholeheartedly by.

    You think I somehow missed that SEE is supposed to be a sith leader? I have nearly every sith at r7, the only one I don't have at relic levels is SET, and let me tell you SEE has been a relatively good lead for sith, and he does bring quite a bit to literally any sith you put him with. It's just that he could, and therefore should be better. He's not terrible. He's just lacking. And he still definitely needs some sort of fix.
    Ive got every sith reliced, including SET, and have Traya, Sion, Vader, Malak, Sidious, Marauder and EP R7, and i cant think of any sith that gets a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership aside from the speed boost.
    It's not just about who gets what boost from the lead. SEE lead with Triumvirate is superior to Traya teams, even if the Triumvirate itself synergises better under Traya lead.

    In most top-end TWs SEE is the wildcard at this point, whether he is set on defense or held for offense can determine the outcone of the war if the opponent just guesses wrong how you plan to use your SEE.

    SEE lead with Triumverate is better than Traya teams because theres a GL in it. If it wasnt then boy would he have issues. Hell, Geonosians actually do better against SEE lead Triumverate than Traya lead.

    I've seen some strange and "unique" points in this thread, but "if SEE wasn't a GL he'd be less good" is certainly a new spin. I agree - SEE is better as a GL than he would be if he wasn't a GL.

    I'm not really sure what that even means, but I'll give you that.

    SEE teams with Triumverate have a GL character in them, Triumverate teams without SEE doesnt have a GL character in them. Teams with GL characters are supposed to be better than teams without GL characters. Want me to be even more explicit?
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    edited January 2021
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    JML lead doesnt need Wat. JKR lead is used more because its probably the second best leadership in the game, right after SLKR.
    SEE lead doesnt do anything for his team aside from the speed buff. 5% stacking mastery amounts to nothing. The heal from defeated allies is extremely lackluster, since it literally does nothing against teams who focuses on single target damage and isnt even that helpfull against teams with big AoEs since your teammates get no survivability at all and so many times gets killed as a group. The only reason people use SEE lead is because he needs it to reach his ultimate, which (unlike JML) hes practically useless without. This is the reason why the best SEE teams we see now are essentially SEE solos with Wat or armorer, since putting any sith with SEE is a futile effort. While JML is by no means perfect and should be tweaked to be the go to leader for is team, SEEs design as a sith is a complete and utter failure.

    SEE is not "a complete and utter failure". When you put it like that, nobody will take it seriously. Rather, he's a bit lacklustre in several areas and needs some tweaks to give him real strength. Nothing huge, he just needs to be properly viable.

    I think you missed "design as a sith" that came right before that statement, which I stand wholeheartedly by.

    You think I somehow missed that SEE is supposed to be a sith leader? I have nearly every sith at r7, the only one I don't have at relic levels is SET, and let me tell you SEE has been a relatively good lead for sith, and he does bring quite a bit to literally any sith you put him with. It's just that he could, and therefore should be better. He's not terrible. He's just lacking. And he still definitely needs some sort of fix.
    Ive got every sith reliced, including SET, and have Traya, Sion, Vader, Malak, Sidious, Marauder and EP R7, and i cant think of any sith that gets a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership aside from the speed boost.
    It's not just about who gets what boost from the lead. SEE lead with Triumvirate is superior to Traya teams, even if the Triumvirate itself synergises better under Traya lead.

    In most top-end TWs SEE is the wildcard at this point, whether he is set on defense or held for offense can determine the outcone of the war if the opponent just guesses wrong how you plan to use your SEE.

    SEE lead with Triumverate is better than Traya teams because theres a GL in it. If it wasnt then boy would he have issues. Hell, Geonosians actually do better against SEE lead Triumverate than Traya lead.

    I've seen some strange and "unique" points in this thread, but "if SEE wasn't a GL he'd be less good" is certainly a new spin. I agree - SEE is better as a GL than he would be if he wasn't a GL.

    I'm not really sure what that even means, but I'll give you that.

    SEE teams with Triumverate have a GL character in them, Triumverate teams without SEE doesnt have a GL character in them. Teams with GL characters are supposed to be better than teams without GL characters. Want me to be even more explicit?

    And they are....because he IS a GL. Yes, we are aware.

    Unless I have missed a video of a full Geo team beating an SEE team.
    Post edited by Nikoms565 on
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-
  • As he stands, I’d be happy if they simply removes the damage restriction on shock from ls deceived enemies to all deceived enemies and got us to his ult special quicker after the first time. Extra offence or quicker stacking Mastery would be a bonus and link sucks but what can you do. I feel like any stat boosting attack wise or extra survivability will come from future Sith brought into the game.
This discussion has been closed.