We need new Metas!

Replies

  • MaruMaru wrote: »
    Kisakee wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    I don't think it's only about mods, just that when it comes to mods it's hardly about luck. Your full set looks averageish, not necessarily bad. In my gac pools I'm mostly the first or at worst 2nd at mods comparison and this has nothing to do with luck. I'm no whale. I have just put in the 3x daily investment since mods 2.0 with very short emergency breaks.

    That's what i mean, relevant things. To me GAC is something i completely ignore on 3v3 and if i feel good i'm doing the 5v5. The only PvP thing i care about is troop arena as it is my main crystal income and that's fine but i'm more focussed on PvE content.
    I do know that i'm missing out on things for not playing everything as much as dedicated but i'm still having fun and that's what games about to me - having fun and being fair to all people so everyone can enjoy it.
    I don't need everyone to agree with me but i'm free to disagree with them and i do.

    It's all cool, any player can expedite their own experience the way they want. What I was talking about is the global nature of things and which choices lead to which outcomes.

    You're right with that. Over time everyone will eventually get better mods, no doubt. But nobody is guaranteed to get them at the same point as others and that's what people don't understand. I hope they will some day.
    "Never make the mistake of believing forbearance equates to acceptance, or that all positions are equally valid."
    - Grand Admiral Thrawn
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Kisakee wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Kisakee wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    I don't think it's only about mods, just that when it comes to mods it's hardly about luck. Your full set looks averageish, not necessarily bad. In my gac pools I'm mostly the first or at worst 2nd at mods comparison and this has nothing to do with luck. I'm no whale. I have just put in the 3x daily investment since mods 2.0 with very short emergency breaks.

    That's what i mean, relevant things. To me GAC is something i completely ignore on 3v3 and if i feel good i'm doing the 5v5. The only PvP thing i care about is troop arena as it is my main crystal income and that's fine but i'm more focussed on PvE content.
    I do know that i'm missing out on things for not playing everything as much as dedicated but i'm still having fun and that's what games about to me - having fun and being fair to all people so everyone can enjoy it.
    I don't need everyone to agree with me but i'm free to disagree with them and i do.

    It's all cool, any player can expedite their own experience the way they want. What I was talking about is the global nature of things and which choices lead to which outcomes.

    You're right with that. Over time everyone will eventually get better mods, no doubt. But nobody is guaranteed to get them at the same point as others and that's what people don't understand. I hope they will some day.

    Everyone understands that.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    Everyone understands that.
    So why is everyone arguing? That was my whole point from the beginning. I never said "You'll never get better mods", i just said that it is random.
    "Never make the mistake of believing forbearance equates to acceptance, or that all positions are equally valid."
    - Grand Admiral Thrawn
  • There we go..."It's all random" is a meaningless euphemism. Eventually everyone will not get better mods, because what consists of better mods keeps shifting. When someone that's farming 1/2 gets mods as good as I have now, I will have twice that.

    If you are fixated on getting the desired outcome on a single mod, or that someone who's not investing in mods getting a god mod a few times we can talk about a chance factor. But this doesn't apply to the total investment in mods which has a much larger scale and sample size. As the samples grow, randomness interval contracts. It's incredibly unlikely 2 players with same mod investment where one has 20 god mods and the other 100. Even 20-30 would be quite a divergence. And it's not all about 20+s either as noone has 400 of them which is barely enough to cover gac teams.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Everyone understands that.
    So why is everyone arguing? That was my whole point from the beginning. I never said "You'll never get better mods", i just said that it is random.

    I believe the confusion comes from saying it's all about luck, as in some players will just always have better mods, due to luck.

    In reality it's a trendline that everyone follows and some players may represent points slightly above and below at a particular time, but in the end we all end up approaching and living on that treandline.

    A players "luck" is a slight blip on the average field of a scarred plot. Some (not saying you in particular) feel like or talk like other players are on a whole nother level due to "luck", when its really just effort and planning.
  • raybron99
    129 posts Member
    edited February 2021
    In summation, we basically have one guy who doesn't get math or reading while arguing that he does. Lets forget him and get back to the topic at hand.

    The 2021 GLs need to be a power level above the 2020 GLs, and we need them ASAP!!!

    We also need a new fleet meta. Introduce it in conquest in the new store if you have to, but it needs to come ASAP!

    We're stuck in the mud at the top.
  • MaruMaru wrote: »
    There we go..."It's all random" is a meaningless euphemism. Eventually everyone will not get better mods, because what consists of better mods keeps shifting. When someone that's farming 1/2 gets mods as good as I have now, I will have twice that.

    If you are fixated on getting the desired outcome on a single mod, or that someone who's not investing in mods getting a god mod a few times we can talk about a chance factor. But this doesn't apply to the total investment in mods which has a much larger scale and sample size. As the samples grow, randomness interval contracts. It's incredibly unlikely 2 players with same mod investment where one has 20 god mods and the other 100. Even 20-30 would be quite a divergence. And it's not all about 20+s either as noone has 400 of them which is barely enough to cover gac teams.

    You can push your luck and in the end you will overcome it, by math and its statistics there's almost no chance to not get mods with high speed rolls. That's all totally fine but the factor you really need to consider is simple time and even that will diminish at some point which proves your point. I think we can finally settle this.
    To say it in the words of wisdom (not my own): The way is leading to the goal, the more you try to find the right path the more you will eventually succeed. Some may find it earlier, others don't. That's the ultimate truth - the journey is its own reward.
    "Never make the mistake of believing forbearance equates to acceptance, or that all positions are equally valid."
    - Grand Admiral Thrawn
  • raybron99 wrote: »
    In summation, we basically have one guy who doesn't get math or reading while arguing that he does. Lets forget him and get back to the topic at hand.

    The 2021 GLs need to be a power level above the 2020 GLs, and we need them ASAP!!!

    We also need a new fleet meta. Introduce it in conquest in the new store if you have to, but it needs to come ASAP!

    We're stuck in the mud at the top.
    And we're right back at the beginning.. I disagree with all of it.
    "Never make the mistake of believing forbearance equates to acceptance, or that all positions are equally valid."
    - Grand Admiral Thrawn
  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    raybron99 wrote: »
    In summation, we basically have one guy who doesn't get math or reading while arguing that he does. Lets forget him and get back to the topic at hand.

    The 2021 GLs need to be a power level above the 2020 GLs, and we need them ASAP!!!

    We also need a new fleet meta. Introduce it in conquest in the new store if you have to, but it needs to come ASAP!

    We're stuck in the mud at the top.

    Yeah hard disagree, but I appreciate your perspective and the thread.
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Konju wrote: »
    raybron99 wrote: »
    In summation, we basically have one guy who doesn't get math or reading while arguing that he does. Lets forget him and get back to the topic at hand.

    The 2021 GLs need to be a power level above the 2020 GLs, and we need them ASAP!!!

    We also need a new fleet meta. Introduce it in conquest in the new store if you have to, but it needs to come ASAP!

    We're stuck in the mud at the top.

    Yeah hard disagree, but I appreciate your perspective and the thread.

    I agree with all of it.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Kisakee wrote: »
    i want a diverse meta where everyone has to fight to stay on top and can't simply buy their success.

    I am ready for the next meta and will spend zero dollars to get it. Meanwhile I'd rather not spend two hours every day climbing thank you very much.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    raybron99 wrote: »
    In summation, we basically have one guy who doesn't get math or reading while arguing that he does. Lets forget him and get back to the topic at hand.

    The 2021 GLs need to be a power level above the 2020 GLs, and we need them ASAP!!!

    We also need a new fleet meta. Introduce it in conquest in the new store if you have to, but it needs to come ASAP!

    We're stuck in the mud at the top.

    I also disagree, especially with the ASAP part, and to some extent the GL part.

    I wouldnt mind more options and if one option holds slightly better than others, that's fine too, but 1 I dont necessarily want and 2 I dont think we will see, a clean sweep to a new thing.

    Ships need attention and more there, but no I dont think they need to wipe out Mal and Nego fleets in one move.
  • Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Everyone understands that.
    So why is everyone arguing? That was my whole point from the beginning. I never said "You'll never get better mods", i just said that it is random.

    Mod rolls are random - I don't think there's disagreement there.

    Let's say over the next week, you decide to buy 10 mods but I buy 100. We both may end up with nothing we'll keep but in acquiring 90 more than you I am giving myself a better chance at pulling a keeper.

    I think that's the point.
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Mal and Neg have been meta forever. It's time for a new meta.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Mal and Neg have been meta forever. It's time for a new meta.

    Fleet changes I welcome. And I understand your severe hoard strategy. It works well for you. It’s just P2W for most though.
  • TVF wrote: »
    Meanwhile I'd rather not spend two hours every day climbing thank you very much.
    And that's about it - you don't want to work for your top spots, you just want to stay there with as little effort as possible. And that is what has to change, i WANT you to need to spend time for it. In my eyes everyone should be able to play whatever team they like and still be successful with climbing to the top. Earn your place or perish, and do it every single day.
    "Never make the mistake of believing forbearance equates to acceptance, or that all positions are equally valid."
    - Grand Admiral Thrawn
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Meanwhile I'd rather not spend two hours every day climbing thank you very much.
    And that's about it - you don't want to work for your top spots,

    Hahaha I got my roster and my resources to where they are with a ton of work. I earned my place in this resource management game. And while not skipping any other parts of the game by the way. Meanwhile right now anyone can climb to the top regardless of mods or effort. All it takes is having a few hours free consecutively every day. How is that earned?
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    twstdbydsn wrote: »
    Like I need to be any further behind than I already am.

    This was my point. I want as many people behind as possible.

    tenor.gif

  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Meanwhile I'd rather not spend two hours every day climbing thank you very much.
    And that's about it - you don't want to work for your top spots,

    Hahaha I got my roster and my resources to where they are with a ton of work. I earned my place in this resource management game. And while not skipping any other parts of the game by the way. Meanwhile right now anyone can climb to the top regardless of mods or effort. All it takes is having a few hours free consecutively every day. How is that earned?

    So another player investing the time and energy to have the GL counter to your defense set isn’t work? That other player showing up everyday for similar length of climb as you to their payout isn’t work? I certainly think both would qualify as earned.
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    twstdbydsn wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    twstdbydsn wrote: »
    Like I need to be any further behind than I already am.

    This was my point. I want as many people behind as possible.

    tenor.gif

    It's a cat eat mouse world out there.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    It's a cat eat mouse world out there.
    Humanity always evolved and at some point we will hopefully overcome this thinking but as long as people live like that we're just burden ourself.
    "Never make the mistake of believing forbearance equates to acceptance, or that all positions are equally valid."
    - Grand Admiral Thrawn
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Meanwhile I'd rather not spend two hours every day climbing thank you very much.
    And that's about it - you don't want to work for your top spots,

    Hahaha I got my roster and my resources to where they are with a ton of work. I earned my place in this resource management game. And while not skipping any other parts of the game by the way. Meanwhile right now anyone can climb to the top regardless of mods or effort. All it takes is having a few hours free consecutively every day. How is that earned?

    So another player investing the time and energy to have the GL counter to your defense set isn’t work? That other player showing up everyday for similar length of climb as you to their payout isn’t work? I certainly think both would qualify as earned.

    It's less work when arena is RPS, by far.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    It's a cat eat mouse world out there.
    Humanity always evolved and at some point we will hopefully overcome this thinking but as long as people live like that we're just burden ourself.

    Said the guy that wants me to "earn my place" every day by playing a phone game for two straight hours. Ok.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    It's a cat eat mouse world out there.
    Humanity always evolved and at some point we will hopefully overcome this thinking but as long as people live like that we're just burden ourself.

    Said the guy that wants me to "earn my place" every day by playing a phone game for two straight hours. Ok.
    Yes, i want you to feel how hard the system is we're currently living in to show you how wrong it is.
    "Never make the mistake of believing forbearance equates to acceptance, or that all positions are equally valid."
    - Grand Admiral Thrawn
  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Meanwhile I'd rather not spend two hours every day climbing thank you very much.
    And that's about it - you don't want to work for your top spots,

    Hahaha I got my roster and my resources to where they are with a ton of work. I earned my place in this resource management game. And while not skipping any other parts of the game by the way. Meanwhile right now anyone can climb to the top regardless of mods or effort. All it takes is having a few hours free consecutively every day. How is that earned?

    So another player investing the time and energy to have the GL counter to your defense set isn’t work? That other player showing up everyday for similar length of climb as you to their payout isn’t work? I certainly think both would qualify as earned.

    It's less work when arena is RPS, by far.

    While I do believe you personally put in more work staying ahead in meta terms, for many it’s a swipe of the card, a double click of a mouse button and a monetary transaction. Where is the work in that?
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Meanwhile I'd rather not spend two hours every day climbing thank you very much.
    And that's about it - you don't want to work for your top spots,

    Hahaha I got my roster and my resources to where they are with a ton of work. I earned my place in this resource management game. And while not skipping any other parts of the game by the way. Meanwhile right now anyone can climb to the top regardless of mods or effort. All it takes is having a few hours free consecutively every day. How is that earned?

    So another player investing the time and energy to have the GL counter to your defense set isn’t work? That other player showing up everyday for similar length of climb as you to their payout isn’t work? I certainly think both would qualify as earned.

    It's less work when arena is RPS, by far.

    While I do believe you personally put in more work staying ahead in meta terms, for many it’s a swipe of the card, a double click of a mouse button and a monetary transaction. Where is the work in that?

    There isn't any work in that. But it helps keep the game going. Necessary so that others can play for free.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • I think we’re due a new meta and I say that as someone who likely won’t get it.
    I used to be in my shard chat but fell away over time and left it as I wasn’t really relevant any more. Now I’m back at the top end again as I’ve got jml (my mods are decent 😂)

    I assumed I’d be allowed to move up no problem, as it was always a decent shard, no aggressive chaining, but (presumably) because so many people can move up now you get knocked back as soon as you hit top 10. (I’m not bothered enough to ask to rejoin before people try to change the subject)

    A new meta will allow those who’ve hoarded, or spend, or just have got plain lucky with who they’ve geared, to pull away and they won’t have to aggressively defend so much.
    It’s not like more than a few will get it straight off the bat anyway.

    And ships are staler than a staler thing. Definitely needs shaking up.

    797-722-718
  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Meanwhile I'd rather not spend two hours every day climbing thank you very much.
    And that's about it - you don't want to work for your top spots,

    Hahaha I got my roster and my resources to where they are with a ton of work. I earned my place in this resource management game. And while not skipping any other parts of the game by the way. Meanwhile right now anyone can climb to the top regardless of mods or effort. All it takes is having a few hours free consecutively every day. How is that earned?

    So another player investing the time and energy to have the GL counter to your defense set isn’t work? That other player showing up everyday for similar length of climb as you to their payout isn’t work? I certainly think both would qualify as earned.

    It's less work when arena is RPS, by far.

    While I do believe you personally put in more work staying ahead in meta terms, for many it’s a swipe of the card, a double click of a mouse button and a monetary transaction. Where is the work in that?

    There isn't any work in that. But it helps keep the game going. Necessary so that others can play for free.

    True. It does.

    I understand the frustration in climbing for longer amounts of time, but advocating for the whales, krakens & leviathans (most of them spending no matter what, keeping the game going for F2P no matter what) to have an “easy” button doesn’t exactly sound like a path earned either, which you agreed.

    It seems you are just out for TVF and that kind of selfishness has gotten you where you are. Hard to argue it’s not a successful strategy for you. Nothing wrong with it either.

    Simply put, I prefer looking for paths where all succeed and achieve. After all we are taking the rewards from CG so a cooperative effort to take as much as possible is always preferable to me. I’m the kind of guy who throws his last GAC match to allow my opponent to get to kyber if I’ve already achieved it (does not always happen). A diverse meta accomplishes this goal of taking more from CG better than the old metas: unlock “X” paywall (or severe hoard wall) and win.

    Thanks for the discussion. We simply disagree and I can appreciate that.
  • Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Meanwhile I'd rather not spend two hours every day climbing thank you very much.
    And that's about it - you don't want to work for your top spots,

    Hahaha I got my roster and my resources to where they are with a ton of work. I earned my place in this resource management game. And while not skipping any other parts of the game by the way. Meanwhile right now anyone can climb to the top regardless of mods or effort. All it takes is having a few hours free consecutively every day. How is that earned?

    So another player investing the time and energy to have the GL counter to your defense set isn’t work? That other player showing up everyday for similar length of climb as you to their payout isn’t work? I certainly think both would qualify as earned.

    It's less work when arena is RPS, by far.

    While I do believe you personally put in more work staying ahead in meta terms, for many it’s a swipe of the card, a double click of a mouse button and a monetary transaction. Where is the work in that?

    There isn't any work in that. But it helps keep the game going. Necessary so that others can play for free.

    True. It does.

    I understand the frustration in climbing for longer amounts of time, but advocating for the whales, krakens & leviathans (most of them spending no matter what, keeping the game going for F2P no matter what) to have an “easy” button doesn’t exactly sound like a path earned either, which you agreed.

    It seems you are just out for TVF and that kind of selfishness has gotten you where you are. Hard to argue it’s not a successful strategy for you. Nothing wrong with it either.

    Simply put, I prefer looking for paths where all succeed and achieve. After all we are taking the rewards from CG so a cooperative effort to take as much as possible is always preferable to me. I’m the kind of guy who throws his last GAC match to allow my opponent to get to kyber if I’ve already achieved it (does not always happen). A diverse meta accomplishes this goal of taking more from CG better than the old metas: unlock “X” paywall (or severe hoard wall) and win.

    Thanks for the discussion. We simply disagree and I can appreciate that.

    This is already the case given shard folks cooperate and isn't much dependant on metas.
  • Konju
    1142 posts Member
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kisakee wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Meanwhile I'd rather not spend two hours every day climbing thank you very much.
    And that's about it - you don't want to work for your top spots,

    Hahaha I got my roster and my resources to where they are with a ton of work. I earned my place in this resource management game. And while not skipping any other parts of the game by the way. Meanwhile right now anyone can climb to the top regardless of mods or effort. All it takes is having a few hours free consecutively every day. How is that earned?

    So another player investing the time and energy to have the GL counter to your defense set isn’t work? That other player showing up everyday for similar length of climb as you to their payout isn’t work? I certainly think both would qualify as earned.

    It's less work when arena is RPS, by far.

    While I do believe you personally put in more work staying ahead in meta terms, for many it’s a swipe of the card, a double click of a mouse button and a monetary transaction. Where is the work in that?

    There isn't any work in that. But it helps keep the game going. Necessary so that others can play for free.

    True. It does.

    I understand the frustration in climbing for longer amounts of time, but advocating for the whales, krakens & leviathans (most of them spending no matter what, keeping the game going for F2P no matter what) to have an “easy” button doesn’t exactly sound like a path earned either, which you agreed.

    It seems you are just out for TVF and that kind of selfishness has gotten you where you are. Hard to argue it’s not a successful strategy for you. Nothing wrong with it either.

    Simply put, I prefer looking for paths where all succeed and achieve. After all we are taking the rewards from CG so a cooperative effort to take as much as possible is always preferable to me. I’m the kind of guy who throws his last GAC match to allow my opponent to get to kyber if I’ve already achieved it (does not always happen). A diverse meta accomplishes this goal of taking more from CG better than the old metas: unlock “X” paywall (or severe hoard wall) and win.

    Thanks for the discussion. We simply disagree and I can appreciate that.

    This is already the case given shard folks cooperate and isn't much dependant on metas.

    While easily true with a diverse meta, once it’s the “have this team or lose” meta, the cooperation of the shard goes away in my anecdotal experience.
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