The Stand Your Ground Update [MEGA]

Replies

  • Iy4oy4s
    2486 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Regardless of the numbers, it’s also a PR hit not to compensate the players for something out of their control. Throwing 15 or so shards of KAM to the players wouldn’t break the game and make the players happy…instead, we get this thread.

    This. Relying specifically on the shard numbers is fairly pointless as there are too many variables - the fact that KAM is now known NOT to be a requirement for JMK, guilds choosing to focus or not on him, guilds where many have recently 7* him, people not even bothering, because it's bugged (or changed or made more difficult, etc.)

    Anything less than compensation shards is simply more tone-deaf, corporate response and justification.

    May I ask how you would estimate shard compensation if the numbers are meaningless?

    Go back to the numbers earned by the guild the TB prior to the bug. Allow for whatever accounts for "normal" increase from month to month, then compensate each guild based on the previous TB + that increase.

    Or simply give everyone 50 shards, since CG usually takes the easier path. At least that way no one can complain that their guild would have earned more.

    And just for the record, I never said the numbers were meaningless.

    Sorry you said pointless.

    I guess I'm confused by this more than anything, so they can and should account for the numbers when offering compensation, but if those numbers prove there was little to 0 effect on those numbers, that is pointless.

    I was honestly asking, while trying to prod Doja about this topic, but now I'm thinking this is one of those "Whose line is it anyway?" type of things.

    We all know 50 is not a realistic number, if we can acknowledge what they said, not sure if we can.

    Generally speaking any compensation is viewed on the grand scale, as the more complicated the situation the greater risk of an error or at least an issue. Yes the easy path.


    If anything were to happen, that level of calculation and added work is not as likely to happen. Anything simpler and more realistic (i.e. not 50)?

    I would say to not even bother with all the math and give us 10 per messed up TW. So 20. I think that 20 shards is generous and would show that they are listening and care because it surely doesn’t seem like they do with the complete ignorance of the topic. 20 wouldn’t cost them anything and help us out…always look for a win win situation…boom, there it is.

    10 may be a little high, but yes that was the type of solution I was expecting.

    "Making players whole" and move on.

    Anyway, this is all just in theory, and ideas for Doja. We will have to wait and see how it plays out, but with data on one side, unfortunately I see it not going the way we want.

    Well, sometimes you have to take into account the perception of the whole ordeal. Data is great and all, but if people care enough to make threads on this topic enough to make a MEGA, then it's worth it for CG just to give a little more than they normally would buy goodwill, especially when it doesn't cost them anything...people will still upgrade clones for the mission. We used to get 500 crystals and 3 CWC shards for WAY less than this....and sadly, those days have long since died. As I said above, always look for a win-win situation. Right now, no one is winning... it's a lose-lose currently.
  • Kyno
    31576 posts Moderator
    Ultra wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Regardless of the numbers, it’s also a PR hit not to compensate the players for something out of their control. Throwing 15 or so shards of KAM to the players wouldn’t break the game and make the players happy…instead, we get this thread.

    This. Relying specifically on the shard numbers is fairly pointless as there are too many variables - the fact that KAM is now known NOT to be a requirement for JMK, guilds choosing to focus or not on him, guilds where many have recently 7* him, people not even bothering, because it's bugged (or changed or made more difficult, etc.)

    Anything less than compensation shards is simply more tone-deaf, corporate response and justification.

    May I ask how you would estimate shard compensation if the numbers are meaningless?

    Go back to the numbers earned by the guild the TB prior to the bug. Allow for whatever accounts for "normal" increase from month to month, then compensate each guild based on the previous TB + that increase.

    Or simply give everyone 50 shards, since CG usually takes the easier path. At least that way no one can complain that their guild would have earned more.

    And just for the record, I never said the numbers were meaningless.

    Sorry you said pointless.

    I guess I'm confused by this more than anything, so they can and should account for the numbers when offering compensation, but if those numbers prove there was little to 0 effect on those numbers, that is pointless.

    I was honestly asking, while trying to prod Doja about this topic, but now I'm thinking this is one of those "Whose line is it anyway?" type of things.

    We all know 50 is not a realistic number, if we can acknowledge what they said, not sure if we can.

    Generally speaking any compensation is viewed on the grand scale, as the more complicated the situation the greater risk of an error or at least an issue. Yes the easy path.


    If anything were to happen, that level of calculation and added work is not as likely to happen. Anything simpler and more realistic (i.e. not 50)?

    I would say to not even bother with all the math and give us 10 per messed up TW. So 20. I think that 20 shards is generous and would show that they are listening and care because it surely doesn’t seem like they do with the complete ignorance of the topic. 20 wouldn’t cost them anything and help us out…always look for a win win situation…boom, there it is.

    lol

    Very helpful. Thank you for playing.

    Why 10?

    Its a very arbitrary number you pulled out of the hat

    Is 10 shards for this upcoming Territory Battle fair? Is it unfair?

    Why not 5 shards? Or 25?

    Why 10?

    How do you determine that?

    Answer: data

    Kyno has mentioned earlier ITT that CG looked at the data the last time it ran and saw no difference in win rate before SYG was bugged

    They will be closely monitoring the success rate this run and if there is a significant change they might offer compensation or they might not and we all would have a valid reason to raise our pitchforks

    If the guilds are still winning at the same rate, they won't and to be fair, why should they? If you got 25 last month and 24 this month, its more or less the same thing

    Does everyone deserve 10 shards or 20 for getting the same number of KAM they were getting last month when it wasn't bugged (except for the last few hours of Phase 4)?

    So how about we wait and see if compensation is needed or not?

    Looking at this situation objectively, it seems like a wait and see situation

    I agree on the wait and see, and 10 being on the higher end.

    Honesty though I imagine they have a +/- on the data they have, and that range would make it impossible for them to see a minor deviation in the rate.

    I doubt it being 10, but its probably in the 5-8 range as guilds can in theory be gaining a few more each round, but also have a few loses each round.

    Handing out around the 5 would settle the average and negate the possible losses experienced due to the issue.

    25 would be too high, even 10+ would be too high. This is based on the assumption they are correct about not seeing a different rate and the assumption that guilds dont gain 10+ more from event to event, meaning they also dont lose at 10+ the rate. Maybe guilds do, but I find that a little hard to believe, or at least see as any average.

    But we are just in the wait and see mode now.

    I also dont see them doing anything to double our rate of income, as that seems really high for just making the players whole. I know many would want punitive results here, but that's not really realistic.
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Regardless of the numbers, it’s also a PR hit not to compensate the players for something out of their control. Throwing 15 or so shards of KAM to the players wouldn’t break the game and make the players happy…instead, we get this thread.

    This. Relying specifically on the shard numbers is fairly pointless as there are too many variables - the fact that KAM is now known NOT to be a requirement for JMK, guilds choosing to focus or not on him, guilds where many have recently 7* him, people not even bothering, because it's bugged (or changed or made more difficult, etc.)

    Anything less than compensation shards is simply more tone-deaf, corporate response and justification.

    May I ask how you would estimate shard compensation if the numbers are meaningless?

    Go back to the numbers earned by the guild the TB prior to the bug. Allow for whatever accounts for "normal" increase from month to month, then compensate each guild based on the previous TB + that increase.

    Or simply give everyone 50 shards, since CG usually takes the easier path. At least that way no one can complain that their guild would have earned more.

    And just for the record, I never said the numbers were meaningless.

    Sorry you said pointless.

    I guess I'm confused by this more than anything, so they can and should account for the numbers when offering compensation, but if those numbers prove there was little to 0 effect on those numbers, that is pointless.

    I was honestly asking, while trying to prod Doja about this topic, but now I'm thinking this is one of those "Whose line is it anyway?" type of things.

    We all know 50 is not a realistic number, if we can acknowledge what they said, not sure if we can.

    Generally speaking any compensation is viewed on the grand scale, as the more complicated the situation the greater risk of an error or at least an issue. Yes the easy path.


    If anything were to happen, that level of calculation and added work is not as likely to happen. Anything simpler and more realistic (i.e. not 50)?

    I'm not sure what to say then. On the one hand, we're always being told "CG has the numbers, they know the data". But you're saying actually using it in a meaningful way is too difficult.

    Honestly, any amount (even 5 or 10) in addition to what we are able to earn with the bug/change would be fine. But the way you and Ultra are working so hard spinning, it's clear nothing will be done. Sometimes I don't know what we bother.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Kyno
    31576 posts Moderator
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Regardless of the numbers, it’s also a PR hit not to compensate the players for something out of their control. Throwing 15 or so shards of KAM to the players wouldn’t break the game and make the players happy…instead, we get this thread.

    This. Relying specifically on the shard numbers is fairly pointless as there are too many variables - the fact that KAM is now known NOT to be a requirement for JMK, guilds choosing to focus or not on him, guilds where many have recently 7* him, people not even bothering, because it's bugged (or changed or made more difficult, etc.)

    Anything less than compensation shards is simply more tone-deaf, corporate response and justification.

    May I ask how you would estimate shard compensation if the numbers are meaningless?

    Go back to the numbers earned by the guild the TB prior to the bug. Allow for whatever accounts for "normal" increase from month to month, then compensate each guild based on the previous TB + that increase.

    Or simply give everyone 50 shards, since CG usually takes the easier path. At least that way no one can complain that their guild would have earned more.

    And just for the record, I never said the numbers were meaningless.

    Sorry you said pointless.

    I guess I'm confused by this more than anything, so they can and should account for the numbers when offering compensation, but if those numbers prove there was little to 0 effect on those numbers, that is pointless.

    I was honestly asking, while trying to prod Doja about this topic, but now I'm thinking this is one of those "Whose line is it anyway?" type of things.

    We all know 50 is not a realistic number, if we can acknowledge what they said, not sure if we can.

    Generally speaking any compensation is viewed on the grand scale, as the more complicated the situation the greater risk of an error or at least an issue. Yes the easy path.


    If anything were to happen, that level of calculation and added work is not as likely to happen. Anything simpler and more realistic (i.e. not 50)?

    I'm not sure what to say then. On the one hand, we're always being told "CG has the numbers, they know the data". But you're saying actually using it in a meaningful way is too difficult.

    Honestly, any amount (even 5 or 10) in addition to what we are able to earn with the bug/change would be fine. But the way you and Ultra are working so hard spinning, it's clear nothing will be done. Sometimes I don't know what we bother.

    Overly difficult for a simple issue, that is showing there was no change. You do realize if the data shows no difference in rate, that your calculation would lead to 0s and even negative values. Then locating the guild each player was in and other data points. It seems overly complicated, and alot of work for little gain.

    Implementing any dynamic process will also be complicated and could lead to issues.

    I agree 5 or some number given out would be fine, I am confused with the note you add by saying in addition too, I assume you dont mean giving them another (say we got 30 this run) 35 as compensation. Sorry just odd saying it that way as we have already gained our shards from the run, so anything would already be in addition to that.
  • Legend91
    2007 posts Member
    10 if they wanna keep it more realistic or 15 if they wanna be generous. Either way it wouldn't break the game and they could show some goodwill here.
    Legend#6873 | YouTube | swgoh.gg
  • In this example I will use a sample of 600 players for simple math.

    12 guilds, 600 players

    Let’s put the players in 3 groups. All even amounts of players (200 in each)

    No chance of beating it but can attempt
    50% chance of beating it
    100% chance of beating it

    Overall before the bug let’s say 300 couldn’t beat it for easy maths sake. 50% win ratio out of all players.

    After the bug, let’s say 300 still beat it, but some of the no chance group moved up (due to improvements)to 50% chance, and some moved up to 100% chance. Making the no chance group at 100 players, 200 in the 50% chance, and 300 in the 100% chance.

    So 100 still can’t beat it, 50% of the 200 could before but the chances lowered due to the bug, and the 100% chancers as well had less of a chance.

    If the data truly didn’t change, then 300 people still beat it. This means that the middle and upper group had a harder time. Before they had a combined success rate of 75%(ish). 300 beat it out of 400 possible.

    Now they had a success rate of 60%(ish). 300 beat it out of 500 possible.

    So the overall success numbers stayed the same, but the completion percentage dropped roughly 15%.

    This is all very rough math, based on a small sample and some assumptions of improvement, but at the end of the day, if you have a group of people who completed x amount of times before the bug, and x-y(the unknown amount of failures) amount of times after the bug, but the overall amount of successes remained the same, then the only thing that could possibly have changed is the amount of people increasing their roster or getting better RNG.

    This bug only hurts the people who have actively been beating it or improving.

    So again for simple math, let’s say the average guild gets 35 KAM shards.

    The difference of 15% win ratio would mean that a 5-6 KAM shard “make good” per bugged TB would be mathematically acceptable.
  • Bartek
    100 posts Member
    I propose they create a CG Oopsie store and currency. For every CG oopsie, they reward CG Oopsie tokens, which can be used in the store. ;)

    Since there is a limit for a value.. that would break the game in no time :)
    6wifwgmplskp.png

  • Xcien
    2090 posts Member
    I propose they create a CG Oopsie store and currency. For every CG oopsie, they reward CG Oopsie tokens, which can be used in the store. ;)

    That would be nice; 200 CG Oopsie tokens for each oopsie. We would all have millions in no time.

    “Only fools charge ahead without knowing what lies in wait.”

    Thank you for evaluating. Your feedback has been noted.
  • Bartek wrote: »
    I propose they create a CG Oopsie store and currency. For every CG oopsie, they reward CG Oopsie tokens, which can be used in the store. ;)

    Since there is a limit for a value.. that would break the game in no time :)
    6wifwgmplskp.png

    that is a very odd number to have as the "max"

    Not really. You should Google it.
  • TVF
    30980 posts Member
    Bartek wrote: »
    I propose they create a CG Oopsie store and currency. For every CG oopsie, they reward CG Oopsie tokens, which can be used in the store. ;)

    Since there is a limit for a value.. that would break the game in no time :)
    6wifwgmplskp.png

    that is a very odd number to have as the "max"

    Not really. You should Googolplex it.

    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Bartek wrote: »
    I propose they create a CG Oopsie store and currency. For every CG oopsie, they reward CG Oopsie tokens, which can be used in the store. ;)

    Since there is a limit for a value.. that would break the game in no time :)
    6wifwgmplskp.png

    that is a very odd number to have as the "max"

    Not really. You should Google it.

    I would have preferred they not put that safeguard in and let these fools overflow XD
  • zatho
    128 posts Member
    It is good news that you were able to fix this issue. However your timing is very annoying. We did our fights in our guild (via stream) and after the last one finished, you announced there will be a fix tonight.
    Didn't you just recently state that you will need until August to fix it and even shift TB with TW to get more time looking into it? And didn't you say in the past that you don't push fixes for events currently running?
    Don't get me wrong, it is great that you could solve it earlier than expected and I appreciate some communication about what is going on. But why didn't you tell us to wait with fighting until tomorrow in case the fix will be ready? Now we wasted our attempts for nothing. Why didn't you announce the fix before phase 3 started?
  • So stand your ground is fixed, but having been told it would not be fixed I already made my run at this on my alt account, when some time came up during my day.

    I checked the forums (140930MJUL OR 132130ZJUL) no dev announcements. Did the mission. Looked at the forums again just after doing the depressing failed the mission re-mod and it was announced as fixed, if you get the update.

    This account succeed last time easily. I know the rng could have killed me anyway, but there was a definite instance of needing to heal someone after syg was used and they were still too low on HP (being no P) so the heal went on them, where I needed it elsewhere too.

    Shaak also died easier after her syg on herself gave no protection back. Run was pretty much over when she died at that point.

    I know it's just one shard, but that was half of what our guild got last time.

    Also, I'd like to know if the messed around tw/tb dates will still be happening for August.
  • Merge went wrong moderators.
  • Prophet
    17 posts Member
    edited July 14
    CG, thanks for fixing the the SYG bug. But multiple guilds missed out on KAM shards on the previous LSTB. You could hand out let's say 5 KAM shards to everyone to compensate this. Many thanks
    Post edited by Kyno on
  • LordDirt
    2522 posts Member
    :D
    Free at last
  • Prophet
    17 posts Member
    I just think it's time they provide a statement in this respect and compensate accordingly. Does not need to be 25 just a gesture of 5 to 8 would be perfectly acceptable to the gamer base. These shards are hard enough to acquire that adding a level of difficulty because of a bug is uneccessary in my view!
  • Bubblechomp
    858 posts Member
    edited July 14
    Why wouldn’t the devs be stingy over 5 shards? They have to hand make the pixels in a factory, pay for inspection, packaging and shipping, etc. And is it really their fault? Maybe it’s the player-base’s fault for being so demanding all the time as if they’re customers expecting a properly maintained product. The devs are the victims if anything.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Iy4oy4s
    2486 posts Member
    edited July 14
    Zeta bet that CG will not address the compensation topic at all. Any takers?
  • Konju
    1117 posts Member
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Zeta bet that CG will not address the compensation topic at all. Any takers?

    Nope
  • Kyno
    31576 posts Moderator
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Zeta bet that CG will not address the compensation topic at all. Any takers?

    They did. There are no plans at this time to distribute any compensation.
  • Kyno
    31576 posts Moderator
    Why wouldn’t the devs be stingy over 5 shards? They have to hand make the pixels in a factory, pay for inspection, packaging and shipping, etc. And is it really their fault? Maybe it’s the player-base’s fault for being so demanding all the time as if they’re customers expecting a properly maintained product. The devs are the victims if anything.

    I'm always surprised by this, I know it's hard to believe but every part of any business and things they make/do has a value. Value, even of money itself, is an imaginary thing and can always be dismissed, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a value.
  • Wait. People expect compensation over the SYG bug? Seriously? I didn't even notice the bug as the Reek is so easy at this point. Your toons should be loaded up with health and not protection anyway.

    They did just make the mission easier for people in the future by removing Arc as a requirement and making BB heros. So maybe consider that as compensation?

    Don't be stingy. R7 your Shaak and 501st (other than Rex, R5 him) and remod your squad. Profit.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Why wouldn’t the devs be stingy over 5 shards? They have to hand make the pixels in a factory, pay for inspection, packaging and shipping, etc. And is it really their fault? Maybe it’s the player-base’s fault for being so demanding all the time as if they’re customers expecting a properly maintained product. The devs are the victims if anything.

    I'm always surprised by this, I know it's hard to believe but every part of any business and things they make/do has a value. Value, even of money itself, is an imaginary thing and can always be dismissed, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a value.

    While I agree with your point that even "pixels" have value to CG, I am dismayed that whatever data they have supports a business model of rarely compensating the player base when they make mistakes :(
  • Wait. People expect compensation over the SYG bug? Seriously? I didn't even notice the bug as the Reek is so easy at this point. Your toons should be loaded up with health and not protection anyway.

    They did just make the mission easier for people in the future by removing Arc as a requirement and making BB heros. So maybe consider that as compensation?

    Don't be stingy. R7 your Shaak and 501st (other than Rex, R5 him) and remod your squad. Profit.

    Spoken like a true whale
  • Kyno
    31576 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Why wouldn’t the devs be stingy over 5 shards? They have to hand make the pixels in a factory, pay for inspection, packaging and shipping, etc. And is it really their fault? Maybe it’s the player-base’s fault for being so demanding all the time as if they’re customers expecting a properly maintained product. The devs are the victims if anything.

    I'm always surprised by this, I know it's hard to believe but every part of any business and things they make/do has a value. Value, even of money itself, is an imaginary thing and can always be dismissed, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a value.

    While I agree with your point that even "pixels" have value to CG, I am dismayed that whatever data they have supports a business model of rarely compensating the player base when they make mistakes :(

    Agreed.
  • TVF
    30980 posts Member
    Magruffin wrote: »
    Wait. People expect compensation over the SYG bug? Seriously? I didn't even notice the bug as the Reek is so easy at this point. Your toons should be loaded up with health and not protection anyway.

    They did just make the mission easier for people in the future by removing Arc as a requirement and making BB heros. So maybe consider that as compensation?

    Don't be stingy. R7 your Shaak and 501st (other than Rex, R5 him) and remod your squad. Profit.

    Spoken like a true whale

    Have to be a whale to have a KAM team now? Yay I'm a whale! :sunglasses:
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
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