Potential CAT AI changes …

Replies

  • str2019
    62 posts Member
    There should be a limit to how bad the AI can play. Wasting turns attacking Zombie unnecessarily while buffing Daka I think is just too much. Zombie because of her unique revive mechanic should have a universal least of all priority for the AI.
    If this is not done Zombie and similar plays will continue to invalidate single target damage characters, even if they are GLs, while greatly benefiting AOE damage dealers such as SLKR (because there is no risk of AI failing with an AOE move).

    Speaking of AI this is one dimension that could be given to players for customization, in similar manner as mods or gear levels. Worth a consideration for CG.
  • th3evo
    346 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    They will keep attacking the previously taunting toon in soem cases without a taunt, that has been an ongoing issue with the AI. That may be part of what they are looking at, but we dont have details at this time.

    What's wrong with AI attacking a tank that doesn't have taunt? Should AI avoid JML when he isn't taunting?

    There is nothing wrong with attacking them, but after a taunt is gone it should go back to random or other priorities they have, and that doesnt always seem to be the case. But as I said I dont have details on what they are looking at, just talking.

    After watching several videos back to back and watching CAT closely I think I know what the issue might be but it's a bit different than what the dev post says.
    CAT seems to prefer to attack taunting tanks even when JMK has High Ground and it's not limited to Zombie/Brute. Unless there is a higher priority target - GAS or Thrawn - she usually goes for the taunting tank whether it's Zombie, Brute, Malak or someone else. She doesn't attack them as much when they aren't taunting.

    Thanks for the breakdown.

    I'm still not sure if it's even the same issue that the devs are talking about though. They say that CAT doesn't prioritize the preferred target. Are they talking about Daka/Brood? I don't think other teams target them either. For now it's "potential changes" so we have to wait and see.
  • Ultra
    8289 posts Moderator
    YetiYeti wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    AI bad on defense is bad for the players

    Are you bereft of sense? Bad AI is the only reason why people play this game. If the AI played perfectly, then players would lose a lot more battles. Watch how many players leave when TW/GAC/Arena are dishing up the AI playing perfectly.

    That'd be the absolute death knell of the game.

    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win
  • Ragnarok_COTF
    431 posts Member
    edited July 23
    So, steering back to the topic of this thread. Yeah, CAT always hitting a tank, even when she has taunt ignore, seems wonky. However, as always, for me, how did CG not notice this? What non-mirror counters did they test that SLK+NS cheese wasn't one of them?

    And if they found others, do share with those of us that made the "mistake" of getting SEE in May ;)
  • Ultra wrote: »
    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This is just wrong.
  • XKurareX wrote: »
    The real fix would be the use of factions
    > Zombie to actually require a Nightsister as leader to revive
    > Armorer to only give Beskar Armor to Mandalorians (that buff is absolutely unbalanced and will in future anyways do more problems than anything else)
    > Wat Tambor to have full tech strength only with Separatists (or remove them on his death)

    😂
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.
  • YetiYeti
    410 posts Member
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    Exactly. The worst arena is the Mirror Arena. I'm thinking specifically about High end TW and GAC, as well. We set 50 JMK+Cats, and they set 50 JMK+Cats. Now what? Smaller scale: We both set JMK+CAT front bottom. Now what?
  • TVF
    30956 posts Member
    I wish I could be Mr. Mastermind.

    Maybe an in-game title.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • th3evo
    346 posts Member
    Ultra wrote: »
    YetiYeti wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    AI bad on defense is bad for the players

    Are you bereft of sense? Bad AI is the only reason why people play this game. If the AI played perfectly, then players would lose a lot more battles. Watch how many players leave when TW/GAC/Arena are dishing up the AI playing perfectly.

    That'd be the absolute death knell of the game.

    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    Don't forget that you benefit from the bad AI as well. Perfect AI would mean that a lot of battles (especially mirror matches) would be just mod/gear/rng checks. Current Fleet Arena Negotiator mirror matches are a good example - I don't think that these types of battles are enjoyable.
  • Ultra
    8289 posts Moderator
    Bl4ckDe4th wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This is just wrong.

    lol

    Tell me what perfect decisions AI can make to beat my SLKR with Phoenix :wink:
  • TVF
    30956 posts Member
    APKI
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Ultra
    8289 posts Moderator
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams
  • TVF
    30956 posts Member
    Ultra wrote: »
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams

    JML?
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Ultra
    8289 posts Moderator
    Yeah I meant Jedi Master Luke
  • YetiYeti
    410 posts Member
    Ultra wrote: »
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams

    Which breaks your JKR team, your Gas team, and is utilizing JML/JKL. What an expensive team. With expanded GAC, good luck saving that every round.
  • TVF
    30956 posts Member
    YetiYeti wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams

    Which breaks your JKR team, your Gas team, and is utilizing JML/JKL. What an expensive team. With expanded GAC, good luck saving that every round.

    There should be an advantage in GAC/TW
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Ultra
    8289 posts Moderator
    YetiYeti wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams

    Which breaks your JKR team, your Gas team, and is utilizing JML/JKL. What an expensive team. With expanded GAC, good luck saving that every round.

    What's your complaint?

    JMK needs a counter that breaks nothing and shouldn't cost you anything to beat with?????

    do you really think that's reasonable ask??

    The original complaint was that the team has no counters outside mirrors, but it does, and now the issue is that its costly to beat it?

    What's the next complaint if there is a less costly team?

    "Why do i need a team to counter JMK? I should be able to solo Vader it tbh"
  • Ultra
    8289 posts Moderator
    Ultra wrote: »
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams

    The current AI can curbstomp my JML-Gen Sky-JKL-JKR-Hyoda still even if *I* play perfectly. Next excuse plz.

    Try adding some mods on your toons
  • Kyno
    31168 posts Moderator
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    They will keep attacking the previously taunting toon in soem cases without a taunt, that has been an ongoing issue with the AI. That may be part of what they are looking at, but we dont have details at this time.

    What's wrong with AI attacking a tank that doesn't have taunt? Should AI avoid JML when he isn't taunting?

    There is nothing wrong with attacking them, but after a taunt is gone it should go back to random or other priorities they have, and that doesnt always seem to be the case. But as I said I dont have details on what they are looking at, just talking.

    After watching several videos back to back and watching CAT closely I think I know what the issue might be but it's a bit different than what the dev post says.
    CAT seems to prefer to attack taunting tanks even when JMK has High Ground and it's not limited to Zombie/Brute. Unless there is a higher priority target - GAS or Thrawn - she usually goes for the taunting tank whether it's Zombie, Brute, Malak or someone else. She doesn't attack them as much when they aren't taunting.

    Thanks for the breakdown.

    I'm still not sure if it's even the same issue that the devs are talking about though. They say that CAT doesn't prioritize the preferred target. Are they talking about Daka/Brood? I don't think other teams target them either. For now it's "potential changes" so we have to wait and see.

    I am really busy IRL and have not had a chance to touch base fully on this one, just picking up here and there on multiple conversations.

    It may be based on not ignoring taunt when they can, from my quick sweep of the convo.
  • Ultra
    8289 posts Moderator
    th3evo wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Bl4ckDe4th wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This is just wrong.

    lol

    Tell me what perfect decisions AI can make to beat my SLKR with Phoenix :wink:

    That's not hard/soft counter. That's an overkill.

    Funny how y'all keep changing definitions to avoid the problems with your own arguments
  • artusa
    152 posts Member
    Does that mean zombie will get a nerf? If so, then let me retort.
    This whole thing is in response to JMK with CAT and not so much CAT in general.
    As of now the community hasn't found any non-GL friendly counters to JMK/CAT. All we have is GL counters and very weird GL counters. Rey has a counter, SEE has his, JML has his but if you nerf zombie then SLKR has nothing. The combination of JMK and CAT is too strong and unbalances the game.
    A fix would be great but if anyone should get a nerf then it should JMK.
  • TVF wrote: »
    I wish I could be Mr. Mastermind.

    Maybe an in-game title.

    Need an in-game to make you feel like a mastermind? Maybe you should buy a really expensive car or date your secretary #ingamemidlifecrisis😉
  • TVF
    30956 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    YetiYeti wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams

    Which breaks your JKR team, your Gas team, and is utilizing JML/JKL. What an expensive team. With expanded GAC, good luck saving that every round.

    There should be an advantage in GAC/TW

    Why? All GLs are comparable, remember?

    "comparable" /= "exactly the same"

    Also, they didn't say anything about their squads (including CAT btw).
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • artusa
    152 posts Member
    Artumas wrote: »
    I've been watching a lot of videos on JMK+CAT counters, and if you watch a couple of them, it's VERY apparent what the issue is.

    Zombie will taunt.
    Zombie will die.
    80+% of attacks will still be targeted at Zombie, despite Zombie no longer taunting.
    JMK will Ult, giving the entire team taunt cirumvention, which SHOULD re-prioritize targeting for the entire team.
    80+% of attacks will still be targeted at Zombie.
    This is with characters that minus taunting are very obviously prioritized by the AI up, like GAS and JKR.

    It's not even a situation like SLKR counters with Fives, they're literally prioritizing a character that can't die because it taunted once, and is very obviously erroneous rather than "exploiting move and targeting priority".

    I'm also pretty sure this applies to more than just Zombie and Brute, as I've sort of noticed it with my Rey team as well, if I have GK, as soon as he taunts once, half the rest of my team just gets straight up ignored, despite often being targeted by the first couple of attacks prior to GK taunting, and this wasn't happening anywhere in arena for the past like 6+ months in the same way.

    It's like they're unable to properly re-target after someone taunts.

    You seen videos but have you actually ran that team ? It works 1 out of 5 times. Once they have the High Ground they usually go after SLKR and single him out. Videos never show the failed attempts, they only show you the successful ones.
  • th3evo
    346 posts Member
    edited July 23
    TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    YetiYeti wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams

    Which breaks your JKR team, your Gas team, and is utilizing JML/JKL. What an expensive team. With expanded GAC, good luck saving that every round.

    There should be an advantage in GAC/TW

    Why? All GLs are comparable, remember?

    "comparable" /= "exactly the same"

    Also, they didn't say anything about their squads (including CAT btw).

    CAT was advertised in JMK synergy suggestions and JMK was advertised in CAT synergy suggestions. Granted, it's not the same post that mentions JMK being on par with other GLs - that was Road Ahead: April 2021 where they announced both CAT and JMK.
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