[MEGA] State of the Galaxy: November 2021

Replies

  • I’m so glad I managed to switch focus in time to getting executor instead of another GL. That decision is even better now. If they had announced executor one month later I’d been really fudged.
  • Just want to make sure I understand the division system.
    As I read it you need a ver good account to get about 500 crystals per day.
    Minimum 5-6 mil GP and and 2-3 GL.
    That’s at least two year of work.

    The old system I got 500 crystals early on in the game (I bought HP boundle)
    No cheating and not joining a shard mafia but a bit of whaling.

    So if a new account is started now they will have to settle with a much lower crystal income the first two years.
    In my case I would have lost almost 100 000 crystals the first year.

    This would make it even harder to reach the higher divisions/ rewards.

    Is there something I’m missing?
  • Kyno wrote: »
    [
    So you don't want to face players who are as good as you are in GAC and have a similar win ratio?

    Ehm... yes i don´t, and i guess every other one also :)

    we wanna win, regardless if my opponent is a superhero or mickey mouse... that was the only reason we have got revan, darthrevan, gas, rey, JML and so on and so on at day1 of their release^^

    i don´t see a benefit now for grabbing the new meta at day 1... now it´s skill based... we will experience a boring sinus curve... win/loose/win/loose... boring... anything you can do is buying 3 legends or 5 omicrontoons... you will end up further up and experience the same boring sine curve a little bit higher than before

    have played over centuries such skill based games... it´s more or less boring, cause you will be stuck and you can´t improve any further all at the latest when you can't buy anything more
  • Salv
    28 posts Member
    edited December 2021
    I love this change - for myself I can see only benefits:
    - gac is my favorite game mode, now it will award meaningful rewards
    - my crystal income will improve (4.5M finishing top20/50 in arena)
    - i can freely chose when to fight gac, no static po time and no fear about the snipers
    - I was extremely cautious to raise any skill, add a single gear piece for toons in my top X - now I can finally spend all these 400+ zetas without being punished at all

    Only problem I see is with all relatively fresh players who were finishing top5 in areana - their income will be significantly reduced. This might also discourage spending for new players, because they won't get an immediate benefit - it will take long time to climb to kyber.

    Maybe one more (really small) thing against the change - so far GAC was a purely skill game (roster development + actual matches), not a wallet size comparison (like arena) - this will change now, but I can live with that:).
  • Based on my math, it can easily occur that a lower league's average is higher than a higher leagues's minimum rewards. And the equation still stands if you go slightly above the minimum. This could result in willfully thrown matches, because switching back and forth between two leagues can easily result in lower income than staying at the top11% of the lower league.

    As GAC was supposed to be the top competitive mode, taking W/L into account makes sense here. But doing it without restrictions is a horrible idea.

    The notion of getting matched up against someone who is by all objective measurement out of your league, just because you are doing superb is a bad one. This is not a fair matchup, and the fact that you might be able to squeeze a win doesnt change that in the slightest.
  • This is a cry from the heart and do not pay much attention.
    I was thinking about innovation and the most annoying thing is that developers make significant changes unexpectedly. Not giving time to adapt after previous "updates". My friends who invested money in the game decided to quit it after such innovations, because by investing you expect to get a certain result, but your efforts are thrown into the trash bin. This update will be useful for old accounts with 200+ galactic legends in the shard. But for young arenas and those who worked hard to get the legend right away (which was imposed by the developers), this update will have a negative impact. Yes, there are not many such players. But it turns out discrimination on playing time and pretensions of the minority of effective newcomers (just kidding).
  • jedilord
    332 posts Member
    edited December 2021
    Ponf wrote: »
    This is a cry from the heart and do not pay much attention.
    I was thinking about innovation and the most annoying thing is that developers make significant changes unexpectedly. Not giving time to adapt after previous "updates". My friends who invested money in the game decided to quit it after such innovations, because by investing you expect to get a certain result, but your efforts are thrown into the trash bin. This update will be useful for old accounts with 200+ galactic legends in the shard. But for young arenas and those who worked hard to get the legend right away (which was imposed by the developers), this update will have a negative impact. Yes, there are not many such players. But it turns out discrimination on playing time and pretensions of the minority of effective newcomers (just kidding).

    why only older?
    i don´t expect many player in kyber without 5-6 GL and exe (regardless of whether old or new player)...

    as time goes by you will have to have 5-10 omicrontoons at decent gearlevel additionally to your GL and exe (to get or stay in kyber)
  • Why can't CG add something without removing something else ? ....
    This game has become out of price ...
    Yes, the total release of Cx will increase for the whales and the others, even dolphins, will see their Cx decrease ...
    It takes so much time to just G13 a toon that I don't even rush on shards anymore..
    Not talking about the R8 prerequisites...
    May the greed be with you ..
  • LukeDukem8 wrote: »
    Magruffin wrote: »
    DEATHER wrote: »
    Angry are low GP arena focused players, they will have income cut, its same patern like with hard/normal/easy conquest to limit low gp players on rewards to encourage fast roster development

    Bingo. The whole driving force in this game since conception is to earn purps, and you did that by striving to have a top notch arena squad. Rewards for a diverse roster were a joke (ie regular grand arena). Now after 6 years, they've flipped that whole dynamic.

    Why should a player who has built only 1 top squad for arena (and has mediocre mods at best) earn the same amount as a player who has a wide roster, with better mods, and understand the overall roster and strategy better?

    With an inventory collection game, it never made sense to have one single meta team represent an entire roster and to earn one of the most precious commodities off that single team.

    Thats kinda the point of a meta, 1 team rules over all...
  • Joebo720
    425 posts Member
    edited December 2021
    jedilord wrote: »
    i don´t see a benefit now for grabbing the new meta at day 1... now it´s skill based...

    There really isn't anything skill based in PvP in this game. It's who has the most GL's. Even executor in GAC is easily beatable. Throw a trash fleet against them that wastes mass assist, then bring in Rebels and dismantle that fleet.

    Also it is a false argument that people are just building a meta team. Might happen sub 2M but who cares about that. Anyone that has been playing for a little bit needs teams for LS/DS TB and TW. It's not like there are a whole lot of rosters out there with 1 GL then phoenix and ewoks.

    Regardless, bad decision by CG. Lucky they have a license to Star Wars.

    None of this really directed towards the quoted person. Just pointing out how silly "skill based" term is in this game.
  • jedilord
    332 posts Member
    edited December 2021
    Joebo720 wrote: »
    jedilord wrote: »
    i don´t see a benefit now for grabbing the new meta at day 1... now it´s skill based...

    There really isn't anything skill based in PvP in this game. It's who has the most GL's. Even executor in GAC is easily beatable. Throw a trash fleet against them that wastes mass assist, then bring in Rebels and dismantle that fleet.

    Also it is a false argument that people are just building a meta team. Might happen sub 2M but who cares about that. Anyone that has been playing for a little bit needs teams for LS/DS TB and TW. It's not like there are a whole lot of rosters out there with 1 GL then phoenix and ewoks.

    Regardless, bad decision by CG. Lucky they have a license to Star Wars.

    None of this really directed towards the quoted person. Just pointing out how silly "skill based" term is in this game.

    yes i know... they say skill points, the truth is a record of win/loss
    and that has nothing to do with skill, because we don´t play a jump and run game^^ even if both people have all the same toons/ships with the same mods and the same gear and everything else...
    than it is also not skill based... it´s based on who has the fewest game freezes, errorreports which needs restarting the game, disappearing button bugs or whatever ^^

    nevertheless that are minor things... over the longterm... everyone will have a sine curve... you can break it on short term if you grab the new meta earlier than the other player of your "curve"... but you will fall back when everyone else will also have it
  • jedilord wrote: »
    nevertheless that are minor things... over the longterm... everyone will have a sine curve... you can break it on short term if you grab the new meta earlier than the other player of your "curve"... but you will fall back when everyone else will also have it

    Agreed. It's just a system to place a ceiling on you, nothing else. Unless you have all the best teams in the game with great mods, which accounts for probably less than 1% of the people that play.

    I actually enjoy GAC currently, this new iteration gives you no chance after a season or two as you will move up and be pitted against rosters you have no business facing.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nauros wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    I feel like the folks who say this is going to reduce income across the board are letting slip their chat status. Practically speaking, the maximum number of players per arena shard that could get first place in a day was 24. If you think 24 players (maximum) represent the experience of the rest of the player base then you're pretty out of touch. You weren't earning your crystals, you were part of a cartel that conspired to keep the crystals in their little group.

    For the rest of us, just being in Carbonite 1 is going to give as many daily crystals as we already get.

    So saying that everyone is going to suffer doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The 1% is going to suffer and the rest of us are going to get an increase based on what we deserve, so........

    Sucks to be you. Get good at Grand Arena.

    You do understand there are multiple arena shards, with new ones popping up all the time right.

    You do not like shard chats.... but a newer player that gets #1 because they have the best team in their newer created shard arena will be getting the shaft with this.

    Its always bad to take something from players, its never bad to add something.

    From the discussion we had, there are some cases where it's a decrease, but overall it's an increase.

    When looking at new shards which have the largest active population, this is a blessing, as many of them are averaging a very low income, compared to the average in the new system.

    Perhaps a better explaination is needed. The way im reading it newer players (lvl 85) are going to not be anywhere near kyber payouts.

    Initial gp will lock them in low. Skill will grow them some, but id think that #1 player with a low gp wont be clearing 500 a day

    Yes a small % of players will see lower income, in the situation your are stating.

    Are you sure it will be a small %? If skill rating is all that matters, then new players will eventually hit a wall where they can't win because the high leagues are populated by veterans. Unless they heed Carrie's infamous tweet about catching up, of course...

    Yes I am sure.

    Where do you predict this wall will be?

    Was comparing the 110th toon with a guild mate (11 placements = 22 teams = 110 toons). I'm far and away the inferior player (same number of GLs, both have executors), their mods are better. I don't see how I get beat with the bottom of the rosters being what they are. This was with a 700k GP difference (6.3 to ~7M). A 3GL 5M GP roster would be farcical.

    Smaller GP rosters cannot compete in the higher leagues if the defensive team placements are fixed. Period.

    Yes they can, just not in every case.

    @Kyno I expect more out of you. This response is akin to "I know you are but what am I?"

    "Just not in every case". In which cases in Kyber can giving up 2M GP be "fair"? Please provide an example. Let me be clear, I have no dog in this fight. I could not care less. This change benefits me in some ways and potentially reduces my income in others. Either way, whatever.

    The salient question IMHO, is the relationship between league and number of defensive team placements and how there is a massive advantage for higher GP players in the higher leagues as things have been described.
    If that's not the case, please explain how - with examples.
  • Starslayer wrote: »
    Just realised that the skill system will only account victories, if i understood correctly. So no need to full clear to score high, so no need to play offense.

    I see walls of GLs in my future.

    Cue new Omicron abilities and marquee characters. It's actually really smart. Reduce the number off non-GL counters with nerfs, increase the importance of GL farms via GP focus, provide an alternate path to different non-GL counters (new marquees, who knows what else is coming), profit.
  • Starslayer wrote: »
    Just realised that the skill system will only account victories, if i understood correctly. So no need to full clear to score high, so no need to play offense.

    I see walls of GLs in my future.

    Cue new Omicron abilities and marquee characters. It's actually really smart. Reduce the number off non-GL counters with nerfs, increase the importance of GL farms via GP focus, provide an alternate path to different non-GL counters (new marquees, who knows what else is coming), profit.

    Then give it a few months for people to spend on the new non-GL counters, nerf them further down the line, and then start the process over.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Nick_74 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Drathuk916 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nauros wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    I feel like the folks who say this is going to reduce income across the board are letting slip their chat status. Practically speaking, the maximum number of players per arena shard that could get first place in a day was 24. If you think 24 players (maximum) represent the experience of the rest of the player base then you're pretty out of touch. You weren't earning your crystals, you were part of a cartel that conspired to keep the crystals in their little group.

    For the rest of us, just being in Carbonite 1 is going to give as many daily crystals as we already get.

    So saying that everyone is going to suffer doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The 1% is going to suffer and the rest of us are going to get an increase based on what we deserve, so........

    Sucks to be you. Get good at Grand Arena.

    You do understand there are multiple arena shards, with new ones popping up all the time right.

    You do not like shard chats.... but a newer player that gets #1 because they have the best team in their newer created shard arena will be getting the shaft with this.

    Its always bad to take something from players, its never bad to add something.

    From the discussion we had, there are some cases where it's a decrease, but overall it's an increase.

    When looking at new shards which have the largest active population, this is a blessing, as many of them are averaging a very low income, compared to the average in the new system.

    Perhaps a better explaination is needed. The way im reading it newer players (lvl 85) are going to not be anywhere near kyber payouts.

    Initial gp will lock them in low. Skill will grow them some, but id think that #1 player with a low gp wont be clearing 500 a day

    Yes a small % of players will see lower income, in the situation your are stating.

    Are you sure it will be a small %? If skill rating is all that matters, then new players will eventually hit a wall where they can't win because the high leagues are populated by veterans. Unless they heed Carrie's infamous tweet about catching up, of course...

    Yes I am sure.

    Where do you predict this wall will be?

    My prediction is you can neither fall or climb more than 3 divisions from wherever you are initially placed. I think gac lovers are missing the overall downside for them. Eventually they’ll end up in a space where three matches they can’t lose based on their and their opponents rosters. Three they can’t win, and six where their skill might let them overcome their opponents advantage or their opponent has the skill to overcome theirs.

    This seems to me to be a net loss from a gameplay perspective for those that enjoyed gac and were going 10-2 or better each time.

    From a crystal perspective, most will see an increase sure, but the longer you’ve played the higher your income and the easier it will be to progress. The shorter your play time you’re less likely to see an increase in crystal income but even if you do it’ll be less so it will be harder to increase your income than under the old SA model.

    But once again the effect on current players is immaterial. A new player is now seeing a crystal income max that is smaller and therefore has less reason to whale. So while I believe the majority of players will eventually see this as a net positive for their crystal income, I also see it being harder for cg to acquire new spenders to replace retiring spenders.

    I am not a GAC fan.

    We also dont know the exact way this is going to be measured, and likely never will, but we should all realize that it doesnt need to be a 1 for 1 win to loss, they can be waited differently.

    Why would a new player see less income? You mean the top 50 on a shard may be seeing less income, what about the other few hundred that we locked in at 50?

    Will some, yes. Will investing in the game if they choose to still have a benefit, yes. In fact it will be a longer term benefit than arena with a rolling meta. A top end team can be surpassed multiple times in a GAC roster and still be relevant in the game mode.

    I am not a fan of the change or GAC, but there are some big benefits to the player base as a whole.

    But how do we know it a benefit to the player base as a whole?
    It was easy for players with 4 m Gp to unlock character in conquest so now that is super grindy.
    It was possible to counter GL with non GL Toons that was easier to get for f2p players so that was nerfed.
    It was a good way to get resources by staying ahead of the curve in squad arena so that was nuked.

    The game is fun because it’s a challenge, to find a good strategy that makes you successful. But what you have done the last six months is to take away the possibility to find a good strategy. If we win you will just change the rules so that we loose.
    Apparently you think cooperation in squad arena is cheating but to change the game mechanics is not cheating?

    Much of the player base will have a higher average income, is that not good for the player base?

    You do realize how small a group it was that was really pulling in a good average income in arena, right? Just look at the numbers.

    Think about how stagnant arenas got also, there is little movement as shards age. (Devs discussed this in our chat, and had some visuals on that data too)

    I loved staying with the meta and not having to do more than a few battles a day, I am not a GAC fan, as I feel it takes too much time and is not as fluid as it should be to be able to implement strategy.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    GaCvet wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Vishprat wrote: »
    I am really liking the changes. Finally shard competation come to an end. I have been fighting with them for long time. Now I relieved with that. Only people get affected in top 20. However they can still get 500 crystals with few wins.

    Only I have concern about like 4M to 6 M gp how they can move into kyber? And get max crystals. Might be few explanation from CG can help.

    Spend money.

    This entire system is built for you to reach a ceiling and need to spend to get higher.

    Or patiently develop, like all f2p have been doing for years

    Those above you aren’t stopping the development in their rosters. Patiently developing is just treading water. You won’t break through the ceiling by being patient since the ceiling keeps rising.

    If everyone in your bracket has 2 million more GP, patiently developing won’t work since they continue to develop. The only way to close the gap is get frustrated and spend.

    I’ve lost around 5 GAC matchups total in 12 months. In this new system, after a couple of months, I will hope and pray to win 4 of 12.

    GAC has a limited pool of useful characters. A 5M GP account can have the same top X toons as a 7 M GP account.

    You dont need to have all the toons, you need to have a roster built to GAC. So yes patiently and thoughtfully building your roster can have you gaining ground, and not tredding water.

    So you don't want to face players who are as good as you are in GAC and have a similar win ratio?

    Yes this is a change, it's a big change, almost to the point that there will be no comparison between what GAC will be and what it was.

    Does $$$ help a player, yes. Will you hit a point where the only way to progress is to $$$, no.

    This is patently wrong and kyno knows it. The more teams you have developed the more options you have the more ways you can stop your opponent. Kyno does not GAC often and wants to opine like he does.

    You have a set number of defensive placements. Please tell me how having more teams changes that?
  • Nick_74 wrote: »
    Just want to make sure I understand the division system.
    As I read it you need a ver good account to get about 500 crystals per day.
    Minimum 5-6 mil GP and and 2-3 GL.
    That’s at least two year of work.

    The old system I got 500 crystals early on in the game (I bought HP boundle)
    No cheating and not joining a shard mafia but a bit of whaling.

    So if a new account is started now they will have to settle with a much lower crystal income the first two years.
    In my case I would have lost almost 100 000 crystals the first year.

    This would make it even harder to reach the higher divisions/ rewards.

    Is there something I’m missing?

    Unfortunately it's worse than that. You currently need a 6 mil or so account for the 500 crystals a day. But even if you grow your account to 6 mil in two years (more likely 3 or 4 but maybe two with acceleration of gear), all the 6 mil accounts will be 9 mil so you'll still not have a chance.
  • Better hard counters for multiple teams? Pretty straight forward. Just check their GG page, look at their attacking history, and set best counters on D.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Ragnarok_COTF wrote:
    I fail to see the issue here. Consider two players, one at 5M and one at 8M. Their initial seeding will have them spread very far apart. If they should meet someday, that means that the 8M player has been losing and the 5M player has been winning. In theory, their skill gap should be enough to make the matchup interesting. If it is not, the 5M player will lose some skill rating and the 8M player will gain some back, and the system corrects itself.

    Then Kyno responded:
    This seems to be the general idea, ...
    I will also add that unless you are the best player at your GP, when higher GP players make it to your area, they will have been beaten by others at your GP, proving it can be done....

    Yeah, except you're both wildly, wildly wrong. There is no amount of skill difference that will make a 5Mgp account competitive with an 8Mgp account. Instead, what has to happen for these two to meet is the 8M gp player puts in no effort at all - probably because they hate the game mode. If the score difference at the end of their match is very similar, again, it's because the 8M gp player puts in no effort at all. There aren't any 8M gp players that don't know how to construct a team with synergy or who don't have the "skill" to google counters.

    The whole "skill rating" bit is a myth in such a matchup. For other matchups, sure. The distinction between Kyber 1 and Kyber 3 might be based on skill. But when 8M meets 5M the distinction isn't skill. The distinction is that one cares enough about the game mode to make an actual effort and the other doesn't.

    If one doesn't care at all and the other squeaks out a win by 12 points from 1st attack and taking down 2 characters out of a squad of 5, that's not "making the matchup interesting" (to quote Ragnarok).

    "Skill" will certainly play some role in sorting between a few players here and there, but most of what will be assigned to "skill rating" is simply the amount of time people are willing to invest -- researching the opponent's defensive tendencies, researching potential counters in advance, re-researching actual counters once the defense is revealed. Etc. Etc. Etc.

    "Effort rating (with some smaller contribution from skill)" is a much better description than "Skill rating (with a small contribution from effort)".

    Matching a 5M gp player who actively plays against an 8M gp player who hates GAC and wants nothing to do with it isn't "interesting". The fact that neither of you two seem to realize that 5M/8M gp matchups are never going to happen without the 8M gp player giving up on GAC makes your analysis curiously suspect.

    Why not honestly deal with the ramifications of a long-term GP barrier to new accounts, once 8M gp inactives sort themselves to the bottom? Why do you pretend that there's such a thing as "skill" that lets a 5M gp player win a close match against an 8M gp player that makes an effort?

    Every highly-ranked newer account is going to lose crystals from this. People who love GAC will love it more, since they will have inactives sorted out of their division permanently so they don't open each GAC round with 2 to 4 battles against haters who autodeploy. People who hate GAC -- or even just people who have gotten used to the status quo and liked the game well enough as it was -- will build in resentment.

    in the meantime, the biggest problem with this is that by removing entirely the option of buying the HyperDrive Bundle as an early way to get ahead in Arena and begin a massive crystal surge, the HBD folks will have to compete directly against folks who earned their way to level 85 and have thus been playing longer and have advantages the HDB doesn't provide.

    In the old system, newer accounts didn't have to compete against older accounts for crystal income. Now, they do.

    As a result, CG has massively discounted the value of the HyperDrive Bundle, presumably hoping that instead of getting lots of people purchasing HDB they will get lots of people purchasing lots of smaller packs essentially forever since there's no natural endpoint. With the Arena system, once you hit #1 you could coast on that income if you were skilled at planning your resource use. With the new GAC system you will always have older accounts ahead of you.

    Maybe some people will be motivated to spend more and more money with no limit. But it provides an inherent disincentive to spend money for newer players, meaning that they might never pick up the habit.

    Having new accounts compete with older accounts was always a bad idea, which is why the old system avoided it.

    Maybe the new system will still work to bring in new paying players and the game can continue. But that seems like a very risky gamble.

    2 notes,

    1- I agree about how those accounts will meet, and I never said anything about it being fair or interesting. My point still holds, if that situation arises, unless you are amongst the highest ranked 5M GP players, other 5M GP players have faced them and won.

    2 - new players playing against older players, in theory, sure it's possible, but more GP (even just an auto deploy) has a higher win potential, meaning when you enter at the bottom and move up, the likelyhood of you running into an older player is low.

    As you hit mid game it may be more possible, but again many of the crystal rewards are linked to activities in GAC, and not passive. So people who lack interest or motivation are going to see a lower income than those who are actively engaged, and if players are matched then they are working around the same average. This means that an active low GP player could be making more than an less active high GP.
  • Nick_74 wrote: »
    So if a new account is started now they will have to settle with a much lower crystal income the first two years.
    In my case I would have lost almost 100 000 crystals the first year.

    ...

    Is there something I’m missing?

    What jumps out at me is that while you earned 100k crystals in the first year, most players get next to nothing, even p2w and whales generally aren't sitting pretty at 500c per day.

    There was so much wrong with this system, honestly, I'm so happy to see it go away.

    Ever wonder why things cost so much in this game? It's because some players earn 100k crystals a year just by playing the game, while the rest of us are swimming in muck. Well, your 1 great squad and shard networks aren't going to win you the game anymore, and the rest of us will finally have a shot.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    @ScoundrelRui

    So you agree with me that Arena constrains your roster choices less than GAC, and that this leaves you more free to pursue the strategies that make you happy and/or that help accomplish guild goals (like prioritizing all DS teams for a while when first reaching DS GeoTB)?

    Because although everything you wrote supports my argument, your tone makes you sound like you think you're disagreeing with me.

    So my question is once the matchmaking, if it works, sorts itself out properly for fair matchmaking, wouldn’t GAC allow you to build your roster more broadly?

    SA forces a GL at this point. Nothing else. In GAC you can go beyond that once things (hopefully) become balanced. Now I am just as skeptical as you they can get it right. However if they do, wouldn’t GAC allow these passion projects to flourish? Like Imps where it’ll work towards SEE. Or bad batch for Peon Vader.

    I agree, if the matchmaking fails then this is a moot point. However if it does actually work, wouldn’t this be better?

    I don't think so. Here's why.

    For arena, if you want 500 crystals a day, you now need to have a GL and if you want it easy you the new meta.

    Under the new system to get the same 500 crystals a day you'll need 6 or 7 mil gp to realistically have a shot at high aurodium or kyber. And it isn't 6 million of trash gp but of competitive teams probably including 3 or 4 GLs.

    So the barriers to entry are much higher for the top payouts are much higher. If you actually want to get there every toon you gear will need to be focused toward gac.

    If you want to focus on passion projects, you obviously still can and maybe even get more crystals than not caring about arena at all. Though in most shards, you can not care and easily get too 100 for quite some time as long as you actually do some battles. I'm sure you'll be able to get 100 crystals a day easily enough while still farming side projects but if you want the top prize it will be more difficult.

    Especially for newer players. The players that are currently at 8 mil gp players will continue to have a lead that will be insurmountable by a lower gp players

    Bronzium 1 will have a starting GP of 3.1mil, which will earn them 100 crystals from the daily rewards and doing next to nothing

    Yes I said you can do next to nothing and still get 100 crystals a day. However with focus you can be getting 500 a day from squad arena by the time you hit 3 mil gp.

    You do realize that this is only true for a small segment of players, right?

    Assuming little to no losses on refreshes, and an expertly organized shard, roughly 50-100 per shard, at most.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    @Ravens1113
    SA forces a GL at this point. Nothing else.

    Well, okay. But so does HSTR or you get terrible rewards. So does Galactic Challenge, which will allow you 2nd best rewards every week with a single GL, but will not guarantee you that with 0 GL. This isn't even mentioning LS Geo TB.

    There are plenty of reasons to get a GL, and with the RPS meta you can pick from several (at the very least LV, JML, SEE, and GLOW). So, sure, you can say that for early game players SA might force a GL effort earlier than the player would otherwise choose it, but it also might not. In a lower-gp guild having the only (or one of the only) SLKRs gives you a **massive** boost to the amount of g12 gear you soak up, which means you progress much more quickly by prioritizing a GL than by prioritizing anything else, even GAC-priority squads in a game where GAC's crystal flow has started.

    I will likely have all the crystals that I used to have, and with minimal effort, though I hate GAC and will be unlikely to stay in the highest division because of that (it's likely Kyber-2 for me). That's my choice and though I'm not happy about it, it's not what most worries me.

    No, it's the fact that newer accounts will now be competing directly against older accounts that makes things so dangerous. The facts around whether GAC constrains choices more than Squad Arena (I think it clearly does, but it's not something for which either of us would have conclusive data) are interesting, but I only brought it up because someone else had said that SA constrains player choice without any acknowledgement that even if it forces you to build a specific team, once you have one single team done, you're on to whatever you want for a good long while. With GAC's priority on multiple GL's to block progress with specific required counter-squads (that have been nerfed and are now less reliable), things become much more grindy in GAC than in SA with its "one team & you're good to go!" requirement. So having refuted (or at least complicated) the simple narrative that SA constrains player choice, I'm much more interested in talking about other things that are actually problems with or benefits of the new system, rather than things that are exactly as good or as bad about SA or GAC no matter whether the current system or the recently proposed system is in use.

    So looking at yours and Helmet’s responses this seems a tad more clear.

    The way I see it now is that you need to spruce up that GP to max out those rewards.

    So with these changes….

    Those in newer shards no longer have access to the immediate 500-200 crystals per day to hoard and empower your roster. Now it’s in GAC so that income is reduced. Ok point taken.

    So what they’re doing is trimming the crystal income for newer players trying to induce spending. I think older/heavier accouns will see short term (at the least) in terms of crystals, even after the matchmaking sorts itself out.

    Hmmm this is getting deeper the more it’s discussed. I dig it lol

    Trimming the income of the top of the shard on new players, yes. Increasing the PO most new players will see, also yes.

    Newer shards are going to be bigger and more active. Anyone outside of the top 50-100 has a chance at an increased income, and possibly more depending on refreshes due to activity.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Nick_74 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Drathuk916 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nauros wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    I feel like the folks who say this is going to reduce income across the board are letting slip their chat status. Practically speaking, the maximum number of players per arena shard that could get first place in a day was 24. If you think 24 players (maximum) represent the experience of the rest of the player base then you're pretty out of touch. You weren't earning your crystals, you were part of a cartel that conspired to keep the crystals in their little group.

    For the rest of us, just being in Carbonite 1 is going to give as many daily crystals as we already get.

    So saying that everyone is going to suffer doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The 1% is going to suffer and the rest of us are going to get an increase based on what we deserve, so........

    Sucks to be you. Get good at Grand Arena.

    You do understand there are multiple arena shards, with new ones popping up all the time right.

    You do not like shard chats.... but a newer player that gets #1 because they have the best team in their newer created shard arena will be getting the shaft with this.

    Its always bad to take something from players, its never bad to add something.

    From the discussion we had, there are some cases where it's a decrease, but overall it's an increase.

    When looking at new shards which have the largest active population, this is a blessing, as many of them are averaging a very low income, compared to the average in the new system.

    Perhaps a better explaination is needed. The way im reading it newer players (lvl 85) are going to not be anywhere near kyber payouts.

    Initial gp will lock them in low. Skill will grow them some, but id think that #1 player with a low gp wont be clearing 500 a day

    Yes a small % of players will see lower income, in the situation your are stating.

    Are you sure it will be a small %? If skill rating is all that matters, then new players will eventually hit a wall where they can't win because the high leagues are populated by veterans. Unless they heed Carrie's infamous tweet about catching up, of course...

    Yes I am sure.

    Where do you predict this wall will be?

    My prediction is you can neither fall or climb more than 3 divisions from wherever you are initially placed. I think gac lovers are missing the overall downside for them. Eventually they’ll end up in a space where three matches they can’t lose based on their and their opponents rosters. Three they can’t win, and six where their skill might let them overcome their opponents advantage or their opponent has the skill to overcome theirs.

    This seems to me to be a net loss from a gameplay perspective for those that enjoyed gac and were going 10-2 or better each time.

    From a crystal perspective, most will see an increase sure, but the longer you’ve played the higher your income and the easier it will be to progress. The shorter your play time you’re less likely to see an increase in crystal income but even if you do it’ll be less so it will be harder to increase your income than under the old SA model.

    But once again the effect on current players is immaterial. A new player is now seeing a crystal income max that is smaller and therefore has less reason to whale. So while I believe the majority of players will eventually see this as a net positive for their crystal income, I also see it being harder for cg to acquire new spenders to replace retiring spenders.

    I am not a GAC fan.

    We also dont know the exact way this is going to be measured, and likely never will, but we should all realize that it doesnt need to be a 1 for 1 win to loss, they can be waited differently.

    Why would a new player see less income? You mean the top 50 on a shard may be seeing less income, what about the other few hundred that we locked in at 50?

    Will some, yes. Will investing in the game if they choose to still have a benefit, yes. In fact it will be a longer term benefit than arena with a rolling meta. A top end team can be surpassed multiple times in a GAC roster and still be relevant in the game mode.

    I am not a fan of the change or GAC, but there are some big benefits to the player base as a whole.

    But how do we know it a benefit to the player base as a whole?
    It was easy for players with 4 m Gp to unlock character in conquest so now that is super grindy.
    It was possible to counter GL with non GL Toons that was easier to get for f2p players so that was nerfed.
    It was a good way to get resources by staying ahead of the curve in squad arena so that was nuked.

    The game is fun because it’s a challenge, to find a good strategy that makes you successful. But what you have done the last six months is to take away the possibility to find a good strategy. If we win you will just change the rules so that we loose.
    Apparently you think cooperation in squad arena is cheating but to change the game mechanics is not cheating?

    Much of the player base will have a higher average income, is that not good for the player base?

    You do realize how small a group it was that was really pulling in a good average income in arena, right? Just look at the numbers.

    Think about how stagnant arenas got also, there is little movement as shards age. (Devs discussed this in our chat, and had some visuals on that data too)

    I loved staying with the meta and not having to do more than a few battles a day, I am not a GAC fan, as I feel it takes too much time and is not as fluid as it should be to be able to implement strategy.

    I think the issue will now be that high BP players will have all the top crystal spots. While the average will go up, the chance of a newer player getting the higher income is essentially zero under the new system.

    This just furthers the divide between old and newer players. I don't think that's healthy for the game.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    GaCvet wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Vishprat wrote: »
    I am really liking the changes. Finally shard competation come to an end. I have been fighting with them for long time. Now I relieved with that. Only people get affected in top 20. However they can still get 500 crystals with few wins.

    Only I have concern about like 4M to 6 M gp how they can move into kyber? And get max crystals. Might be few explanation from CG can help.

    Spend money.

    This entire system is built for you to reach a ceiling and need to spend to get higher.

    Or patiently develop, like all f2p have been doing for years

    Those above you aren’t stopping the development in their rosters. Patiently developing is just treading water. You won’t break through the ceiling by being patient since the ceiling keeps rising.

    If everyone in your bracket has 2 million more GP, patiently developing won’t work since they continue to develop. The only way to close the gap is get frustrated and spend.

    I’ve lost around 5 GAC matchups total in 12 months. In this new system, after a couple of months, I will hope and pray to win 4 of 12.

    GAC has a limited pool of useful characters. A 5M GP account can have the same top X toons as a 7 M GP account.

    You dont need to have all the toons, you need to have a roster built to GAC. So yes patiently and thoughtfully building your roster can have you gaining ground, and not tredding water.

    So you don't want to face players who are as good as you are in GAC and have a similar win ratio?

    Yes this is a change, it's a big change, almost to the point that there will be no comparison between what GAC will be and what it was.

    Does $$$ help a player, yes. Will you hit a point where the only way to progress is to $$$, no.

    This is patently wrong and kyno knows it. The more teams you have developed the more options you have the more ways you can stop your opponent. Kyno does not GAC often and wants to opine like he does.

    You have a set number of defensive placements. Please tell me how having more teams changes that?

    Do you honestly believe that over the next two years as the number of teams grow, that they won't eventually add more teams in?

    All it takes is the whales with 10 mil gp complaining that they can't use their Phoenix in gac and it will be raised.

    If it stayed static, then it would eventually be theoretically possible for a new account to take a top spot but it is very unlikely that the number of teams needed in 3 years won't be more.
  • StarSon
    6340 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    @ScoundrelRui

    So you agree with me that Arena constrains your roster choices less than GAC, and that this leaves you more free to pursue the strategies that make you happy and/or that help accomplish guild goals (like prioritizing all DS teams for a while when first reaching DS GeoTB)?

    Because although everything you wrote supports my argument, your tone makes you sound like you think you're disagreeing with me.

    So my question is once the matchmaking, if it works, sorts itself out properly for fair matchmaking, wouldn’t GAC allow you to build your roster more broadly?

    SA forces a GL at this point. Nothing else. In GAC you can go beyond that once things (hopefully) become balanced. Now I am just as skeptical as you they can get it right. However if they do, wouldn’t GAC allow these passion projects to flourish? Like Imps where it’ll work towards SEE. Or bad batch for Peon Vader.

    I agree, if the matchmaking fails then this is a moot point. However if it does actually work, wouldn’t this be better?

    I don't think so. Here's why.

    For arena, if you want 500 crystals a day, you now need to have a GL and if you want it easy you the new meta.

    Under the new system to get the same 500 crystals a day you'll need 6 or 7 mil gp to realistically have a shot at high aurodium or kyber. And it isn't 6 million of trash gp but of competitive teams probably including 3 or 4 GLs.

    So the barriers to entry are much higher for the top payouts are much higher. If you actually want to get there every toon you gear will need to be focused toward gac.

    If you want to focus on passion projects, you obviously still can and maybe even get more crystals than not caring about arena at all. Though in most shards, you can not care and easily get too 100 for quite some time as long as you actually do some battles. I'm sure you'll be able to get 100 crystals a day easily enough while still farming side projects but if you want the top prize it will be more difficult.

    Especially for newer players. The players that are currently at 8 mil gp players will continue to have a lead that will be insurmountable by a lower gp players

    Bronzium 1 will have a starting GP of 3.1mil, which will earn them 100 crystals from the daily rewards and doing next to nothing

    Yes I said you can do next to nothing and still get 100 crystals a day. However with focus you can be getting 500 a day from squad arena by the time you hit 3 mil gp.

    You do realize that this is only true for a small segment of players, right?

    Assuming little to no losses on refreshes, and an expertly organized shard, roughly 50-100 per shard, at most.

    Well, to use your own arguments: just because it's a small segment of players, does not mean it's not possible for all players.
  • All the points are from offense now, set 1 team on defense and you almost can’t lose bc your opponent will only get points for the territory, not from winning battles.

    Since forever ago, if your opponent doesn't set a team in a slot, the attacker gets max banners, as if they had cleared with a perfect solo. By all means, if we match up, don't set any defenses XD

    But today the number of members in a Def team doesn't matter. If you solo a team will you get 64 max. With the new system, it will matter. I can put teams with only one member in Def and you will got 65 max banners. In other hand I could beat one of your full teams soloing it and get 69 banners, or even enter with a full team and got the old 60 + 5 kills and still make the same amount as your soloed win.
  • How about giving all players max crystals in the division they start in for the first two GAC season until the MM system does its thing properly?
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