Investigate other GLs too - they can undersize

Replies

  • ShawDou wrote: »
    Veers Piett DT Range and Iden deletes

    LV Maul Storm Tooper Royal Guard Vader

    Without them taking a turn. A non GL taking out a GL without the GL taking a turn

    Not if you have decent speed DV. With 265 speed DV, Iden will never take a turn.

    Iden starts with 100% TM, so that is unlikely.
    Also, she gets bonus 65 speed.
  • ShawDou wrote: »
    Veers Piett DT Range and Iden deletes

    LV Maul Storm Tooper Royal Guard Vader

    Without them taking a turn. A non GL taking out a GL without the GL taking a turn

    Not if you have decent speed DV. With 265 speed DV, Iden will never take a turn.

    Iden starts with 100% TM, so that is unlikely.
    Also, she gets bonus 65 speed.

    No.
    No.
    Legend#6873 | YouTube | swgoh.gg
  • xGriiMErZ wrote: »
    What you're missing if the fact that LV is the newest and the only one they care about protecting, the rest do not matter.

    Do you really think they care about SLKR soloing SEE?

    Good point. CG should just "investigate" until the next GL is released and then they're not obligated to "care" any more about LV.
  • SemiGod
    2996 posts Member
    ShawDou wrote: »
    Veers Piett DT Range and Iden deletes

    LV Maul Storm Tooper Royal Guard Vader

    Without them taking a turn. A non GL taking out a GL without the GL taking a turn

    Not if you have decent speed DV. With 265 speed DV, Iden will never take a turn.

    Iden starts with 100% TM, so that is unlikely.
    Also, she gets bonus 65 speed.

    I suggest re-reading her kit
  • SemiGod
    2996 posts Member
    ShawDou wrote: »
    Veers Piett DT Range and Iden deletes

    LV Maul Storm Tooper Royal Guard Vader

    Without them taking a turn. A non GL taking out a GL without the GL taking a turn

    Not if you have decent speed DV. With 265 speed DV, Iden will never take a turn.

    Or just use a second DS UFU unit with decent speed cuz they’ll get the speed up buff and out-speed the enemy team, letting maul take his second turn.
  • I undersize master kenobi + cat with jml jedi and rey + jedi are you guna nerf them too, daka is a considerable investment since its not required for anything mind you
  • Byakuya wrote: »
    I undersize master kenobi + cat with jml jedi and rey + jedi are you guna nerf them too, daka is a considerable investment since its not required for anything mind you

    Care to share the comps ? Could use that in gac.
  • SemiGod
    2996 posts Member
    Starslayer wrote: »
    Byakuya wrote: »
    I undersize master kenobi + cat with jml jedi and rey + jedi are you guna nerf them too, daka is a considerable investment since its not required for anything mind you

    Care to share the comps ? Could use that in gac.

    Nice try CG
  • Ultra
    9348 posts Moderator
    edited January 16
    ivylADM wrote: »
    It's not simply about the squad being undersized. GLs can (and should be able) to beat other GLs. It's more so that a GL + Conquest character is the current pinnacle, and they should not be defeated by a GL in a much weaker squad.

    IT beat LV without conquest charcter. Doesn't bother?

    Don't worry, the more people complain about this, the IT counter will end up getting nerfed

    hope nobody complains about those set of nerfs afterwards

    i'm shocked how vocal people can be to get rid of f2p counters
  • Ultra
    9348 posts Moderator
    Screerider wrote: »
    So much for GLs having nice rock-paper-scissors relationships.

    JML can beat both LV + JMK

    LV can beat both JMK + JML

    JMK can beat both LV + JML

    I don't quite get what issue they have with the SLKR counter to LV, LV is a great GL on its own and can take out lots of non-GL teams, just like SEE is
  • Ultra
    9348 posts Moderator
    SemiGod wrote: »
    ShawDou wrote: »
    Veers Piett DT Range and Iden deletes

    LV Maul Storm Tooper Royal Guard Vader

    Without them taking a turn. A non GL taking out a GL without the GL taking a turn

    Not if you have decent speed DV. With 265 speed DV, Iden will never take a turn.

    Or just use a second DS UFU unit with decent speed cuz they’ll get the speed up buff and out-speed the enemy team, letting maul take his second turn.
    Or use Gideon, the demoralize should reduce the IT offense enough that LV team ends up taking a lot more turns and stop IT before they can get their train rolling
  • Ultra wrote: »
    SemiGod wrote: »
    ShawDou wrote: »
    Veers Piett DT Range and Iden deletes

    LV Maul Storm Tooper Royal Guard Vader

    Without them taking a turn. A non GL taking out a GL without the GL taking a turn

    Not if you have decent speed DV. With 265 speed DV, Iden will never take a turn.

    Or just use a second DS UFU unit with decent speed cuz they’ll get the speed up buff and out-speed the enemy team, letting maul take his second turn.
    Or use Gideon, the demoralize should reduce the IT offense enough that LV team ends up taking a lot more turns and stop IT before they can get their train rolling

    Why nerf DV then? Just put high tenacity malak, high tenacity rey
  • Ultra wrote: »
    SemiGod wrote: »
    ShawDou wrote: »
    Veers Piett DT Range and Iden deletes

    LV Maul Storm Tooper Royal Guard Vader

    Without them taking a turn. A non GL taking out a GL without the GL taking a turn

    Not if you have decent speed DV. With 265 speed DV, Iden will never take a turn.

    Or just use a second DS UFU unit with decent speed cuz they’ll get the speed up buff and out-speed the enemy team, letting maul take his second turn.
    Or use Gideon, the demoralize should reduce the IT offense enough that LV team ends up taking a lot more turns and stop IT before they can get their train rolling

    What if a LV with Gideon, RG, Storm, Shore (but without Maul and therefor no immediate threat of taking down the troopers) still gets beaten by demoralized troopers because the +30% offense from Iden can offset the -50% offense penalty to a degree?
    I'm sure CG has tested it and Iden is fine. Right? RIGHT??
    Legend#6873 | YouTube | swgoh.gg
  • Ultra wrote: »
    i'm shocked how vocal people can be to get rid of f2p counters
    Shoked? In order not to be shocked, you need to read the text in full, and not pull out one sentence. I`m f2p player & have 3 (three) GL.
    And I wrote about the blatant inconsistency of the developers.

  • dantheman123
    60 posts Member
    edited January 18
    Here's my situation. I'm at the tail-end of my LV farm, having hoarded enough gear to bring all toons to relics. Just need another month or so to accumulate zinbiddles and impulse detectors for the r7 and r8 reqs.

    With the exception of bad batch where I've already taken them to relics cos they're a good squad, I'm not putting on any gear nor additional relic levels on the other toons over and above what is already there until there is some clarity on the LV situation. He seems too easily countered relative to what his power level should be.

    On too many occasions I've had the rug pulled from under me in terms of the Great Nerf and JMK-CAT buff vs SEE. I was heavily reliant on the off-meta counters and having SEE as my only GL to be able to beat rosters with more GLs. Fine, that's a big shift in the game ethos, and I rolled with it.

    Then there was the JMK-CAT buff (ignore Sith protection after ult) vs SEE. This basically sends the message "3rd generation GL with Conquest toon should not be easily countered by a 2nd generation GL". JML is also 2nd generation GL, but has much steeper requirements than SEE, so no arguments here that he should have an easier time vs JMK-CAT. I get that. However, now that the SLKR-NS vs LV situation has cropped up, for the sake of consistency, there needs to be some change that makes the SLKR-NS counter less reliable vs LV. Not necessarily impossible, but a change needs to happen. SLKR is a 1st generation GL with straightforward farming requirements and such a change would be consistent with the JMK-CAT buff vs SEE.

    Before anyone jumps on that last statement quoting CG from way back "all GLs should be roughly on par", please think about that. There needs to be some power creep in terms of later GLs having more power compared to earlier GLs for the sake of the game's sustainability. Otherwise, there would be little incentive to farm new GLs aside from having a higher GL count. You could just farm SLKR and SEE, both pretty cheap farms, and along with the few non-GL counters currently in play have a competitive roster not needing to chase the latest shiny and save yourself a lot of resources.

    So right now I've got a pretty impressive hoard. Not gonna spend it until I see some consistency. I've suffered from past changes and now I'm at the cusp of the new shiny I feel somewhat disappointed having almost completed the marathon that the reward is below expectations.

    Come to think of it, hoarding is a great way to hedge your bets against this kind of thing. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
  • xGriiMErZ wrote: »
    It's not simply about the squad being undersized. GLs can (and should be able) to beat other GLs. It's more so that a GL + Conquest character is the current pinnacle, and they should not be defeated by a GL in a much weaker squad.

    Vader and Mual completely suck for the "Pinnacle"

    If only they were the tip of the spear.
  • Here's my situation. I'm at the tail-end of my LV farm, having hoarded enough gear to bring all toons to relics. Just need another month or so to accumulate zinbiddles and impulse detectors for the r7 and r8 reqs.

    With the exception of bad batch where I've already taken them to relics cos they're a good squad, I'm not putting on any gear nor additional relic levels on the other toons over and above what is already there until there is some clarity on the LV situation. He seems too easily countered relative to what his power level should be.

    On too many occasions I've had the rug pulled from under me in terms of the Great Nerf and JMK-CAT buff vs SEE. I was heavily reliant on the off-meta counters and having SEE as my only GL to be able to beat rosters with more GLs. Fine, that's a big shift in the game ethos, and I rolled with it.

    Then there was the JMK-CAT buff (ignore Sith protection after ult) vs SEE. This basically sends the message "3rd generation GL with Conquest toon should not be easily countered by a 2nd generation GL". JML is also 2nd generation GL, but has much steeper requirements than SEE, so no arguments here that he should have an easier time vs JMK-CAT. I get that. However, now that the SLKR-NS vs LV situation has cropped up, for the sake of consistency, there needs to be some change that makes the SLKR-NS counter less reliable vs LV. Not necessarily impossible, but a change needs to happen. SLKR is a 1st generation GL with straightforward farming requirements and such a change would be consistent with the JMK-CAT buff vs SEE.

    Before anyone jumps on that last statement quoting CG from way back "all GLs should be roughly on par", please think about that. There needs to be some power creep in terms of later GLs having more power compared to earlier GLs for the sake of the game's sustainability. Otherwise, there would be little incentive to farm new GLs aside from having a higher GL count. You could just farm SLKR and SEE, both pretty cheap farms, and along with the few non-GL counters currently in play have a competitive roster not needing to chase the latest shiny and save yourself a lot of resources.

    So right now I've got a pretty impressive hoard. Not gonna spend it until I see some consistency. I've suffered from past changes and now I'm at the cusp of the new shiny I feel somewhat disappointed having almost completed the marathon that the reward is below expectations.

    Come to think of it, hoarding is a great way to hedge your bets against this kind of thing. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

    I don't think anyone feels like SLKR should counter LV easily in whatever composition. But the solution should be a buff of some kind on LV's side, not nerfing a certain team people have invested in for complete different Situations (e.g. Crancor)
  • So if the issue is "GL + Conquest char is being undermanned by GL + Non-conquest char"
    then, uh... SEE/Wat/Armorer trio can still underman Rey + CAT. Sure, CAT's not 100% designed to work with Rey, but they DO work together. Really well.

    So that argument is, IMO, still an inaccurate, moot point.

    Yes, LV is the most expensive UNIT in the game current. Not just GL, but literally the most expensive anything in the game.
    But... I don't think that should warrant special treatment.
    If LV being 3-manned is a notable issue, then every other GL being 3-manned should be a notable issue.

    I'm quite certain I could probably find SOME team that can probably underman JMK as well, I just don't have personal access to every GL so I can't test it, but I'm sure there's probably some squad that can. Not to mention the fact Padme can literally go toe to toe with JMK with basically the same lineup, being a non-GL + Conquest char beating a GL + Conquest char. Consistent? Not necessarily. Possible? Definitely. There's video proof.

    I honestly just think that no matter how you look at it, this is just a case of "LV is weak" and "the only people that have LV are people that whaled on him, for the most part, and we want to protect our paying customers".
    I don't think there's really any actual logic to this being a case of an actual balance concern. Because, again, there's multiple other similar scenarios that have been happening without a single thing done about them. And, yes, I HAVE felt that SEE existing has lowered the value of my Rey farm. To the point any time I'm matched with someone in GAC that has SEE, I just don't put Rey on defense because I'd rather get the solo/duo/guaranteed GL first try rather than just let her be run over by a SEE low-man. And while I can full auto them in arena, that's because the AI doesn't stall before going into SEE's ult so he doesn't do enough damage to kill anything.
  • Nerfs should always be a last resort option when something is just too powerful and overshadows all other things or there is a mechanic that causes problems.
    The SLKR NS team isn't overpowered, it is just exploiting a weakness in LVs lackluster kit (no taunt bypassing for the LV team outside of that 1 Maul turn at 5 anguish stacks) by using the infinite Zombie taunting to it's advantage. The limitless Zombie revive has been a problematic mechanic from day 1 when it was released.

    The wrong thing to do would be to nerf SLKR. The right thing to do would be to either buff LV (short term solution I guess) or change how Zombie works (long term solution).
    Legend#6873 | YouTube | swgoh.gg
  • It's not simply about the squad being undersized. GLs can (and should be able) to beat other GLs. It's more so that a GL + Conquest character is the current pinnacle, and they should not be defeated by a GL in a much weaker squad.

    As long as it's still a GL for a GL whh does it matter about the squad that surrounds each? GL Palp and Wat have been a thing for far longer. Synergy and strategy should always trump GP.

    Well, I think the answer is the devs' future plans always involve power creep for moving forward purposes. No required extras to counter = ways to circumvent intended power creep.
  • Ryanh1315 wrote: »
    You know what guys. Don’t screw with Iden. Don’t screw with Kylo. Buff LV. It’s obvious you want him great, and he isn’t, so buff him. Stop changing everything else to suit him. You nerfed Wat, Luke, Thrawn, and Gas all for him. Just so his one thing, his high health, wouldn’t be shredded through. You built an all tanky type team; that wouldn’t work, changed everything that would really mess with the tanky-ness, it didn’t work.

    Stop reinventing every toon in this game to fix Lord Vader. Fix Lord Vader. Jesus wept.

    Agreed. Lord Vader requires critical units from far too many teams to even be able to contend at the echelon of power that JMK/CAT have, and he's still not worth the investment. I don't even think we're in buff territory anymore, I think he honestly needs a full rework (hopefully with better animations).

    New Ultimate = Takes the Low Ground. Animation = Double Amputation and 3rd degree burns. Buff = Becomes Galaxy Enforcer.
  • Legend91 wrote: »

    The wrong thing to do would be to nerf SLKR. The right thing to do would be to either buff LV (short term solution I guess) or change how Zombie works (long term solution).

    If they really feel they have to do something about people combining three separate teams to make an LV/Maul counter, the right thing to do is actually to buff Maul. They designed him to specifically slow down CAT in a JMK team but he doesn't stop JMK or any other counters. People aren't even using Maul in an LV team much of the time since he doesn't substantially change that team in GAC or TW and is often better used running his own team.

    If the goal is to make GLs with Conquest characters the pinnacle of the game, then they need to make sure the presence of those Conquest characters is the deciding factor in the result of the match. Neither buffing LV so that he doesn't need Maul nor nerfing SLKR and/or Nightsisters so they can't beat an LV without Maul achieve the GL/Conquest character pinnacle that they say they want to achieve. The only way to accomplish it is to make the synergy with Maul such that LV must have him on the team to stop more counters.
  • Legend91 wrote: »

    The wrong thing to do would be to nerf SLKR. The right thing to do would be to either buff LV (short term solution I guess) or change how Zombie works (long term solution).

    If they really feel they have to do something about people combining three separate teams to make an LV/Maul counter, the right thing to do is actually to buff Maul. They designed him to specifically slow down CAT in a JMK team but he doesn't stop JMK or any other counters. People aren't even using Maul in an LV team much of the time since he doesn't substantially change that team in GAC or TW and is often better used running his own team.

    If the goal is to make GLs with Conquest characters the pinnacle of the game, then they need to make sure the presence of those Conquest characters is the deciding factor in the result of the match. Neither buffing LV so that he doesn't need Maul nor nerfing SLKR and/or Nightsisters so they can't beat an LV without Maul achieve the GL/Conquest character pinnacle that they say they want to achieve. The only way to accomplish it is to make the synergy with Maul such that LV must have him on the team to stop more counters.

    Well said. Let's not forget, GAS+501st is a pretty reliable counter to JMK no CAT.
  • You want all GL's to be "somewhat on par" with each other? Fine, then give me back all the excessively absurd amount of resources I needed to unlock LV that I didn't need to unlock SLKR. Then, I don't care if SLKR zombie cheese can beat LV or not.

    You increased the power creep, without increasing the power. Then, you changed the AI for the JMK team to not get defeated by the SLKR cheese, but haven't done the same for LV. (Which is much more painful to unlock than JMK).

    Since Executor is basically a GL of ships, the executor has become a coin flip deciding GAC matches. AND, you've turned RC into the weak zombie of fleets. If you relic up BAM to R8, you mess up the move order unless you make Cad Bane R8 and/or drop mods from BAM to slow down the RC so he goes AFTER the XB. (Even with Cad Bane at R7, XB is still 4 speed slower than Razorcrest.) You don't want weak zombie, but you want weak zombie.

    So, make up my mind please.

  • let's say they make it that zombie revive only works in full nightsister team, i can then go slkr,brood,armourer wat and thrawn, that would have same effect lol, CG CAN'T WIN THIS.
  • bap1234 wrote: »
    let's say they make it that zombie revive only works in full nightsister team, i can then go slkr,brood,armourer wat and thrawn, that would have same effect lol, CG CAN'T WIN THIS.

    Hi Holotable Heroes, We are currently investigating an interaction that allows Lord Vader + Maul squads to be consistently countered by an undersized Supreme Leader Kylo Ren squad with Nightsisters.
  • well they did nerf see+wat+brood+thrawn+armourer vs jmk by changing jmk's kit, this isn't about undersize my boy, it's about older gl+cheese.
  • bap1234 wrote: »
    well they did nerf see+wat+brood+thrawn+armourer vs jmk by changing jmk's kit, this isn't about undersize my boy, it's about older gl+cheese.

    I don't recall a change to JMKs kit and I don't see how a team with a GL + Armorer Wat GBA and Thrawn is cheese unless they are undergeared or create an infinite loop
  • bap1234
    117 posts Member
    edited January 23
    tdov71l8oyvw.png
    they added ignore sith protection. IMO i would call slkr+wat+brood+thrawn "cheese" and same as slkr+zombie.
Sign In or Register to comment.