Asajj Ventress speed too low

Tusnal
77 posts Member
Hi, please review Ventress speed is too low, currently at 86 that's so slow that dooku can hit 2 times before she does the first 1

Please take a look into it

Thanks!

Replies

  • Achilles
    1380 posts Member
    Honestly ... i like Asajj as she is right now ... her speed is fine, when she is leader in the Nightsisters team, she moves last = there are opponents already prepared for her AoE + the opponents moved already, so her dispel works at the best timing.
    Left by design.
    The fixed payout times are the worst part of this game and makes it absolutely family-unfriendly.
  • Karrde
    69 posts Member
    When the meta changes and 1hko isn't possible anymore she may well be really important for that AoE and debuff. Plus, she's already great for DS missions and GW.
    Yorkshire based biology teacher...

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  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    Achilles wrote: »
    Honestly ... i like Asajj as she is right now ... her speed is fine, when she is leader in the Nightsisters team, she moves last = there are opponents already prepared for her AoE + the opponents moved already, so her dispel works at the best timing.

    This
  • Tusnal
    77 posts Member
    I don't think the same I believe her speed should be on top of 100, current speed of 86 is too low!

    Her leader ability should be to all allies not just nightsisters that will be great!
  • Frost
    8 posts Member
    I feel her power balances her lack of speed. She takes away buffs and a all enemy attack. In my eyes she's a beast and a staple character in my lineup.

  • She would be OP if you upped her speed - she already hits hard and heals herself from those hits. If you upped her base speed then her as leader will be one of the faster toons in the game
  • She would be OP if you upped her speed - she already hits hard and heals herself from those hits. If you upped her base speed then her as leader will be one of the faster toons in the game

    QuiGon's basic doesn't hit hard, but his specials are monsters. he's already fast, and when you put him as leader he's monster-fast.

    The test of your claim about her current power is how often she's found in the Arena as leader. Not very often? Then clearly the majority assessment is that she's not one of the best toons in the game.

    Turns and speed work in SWGoH combat in a way that makes certain break-points more important than others.

    Each turn every toon adds its speed to its turn meter. Once the turn meter > 1000, the toon takes an action during that toon. When more than one toon breaks the 1000 mark during a single turn, their actions are ordered randomly -they might be giving a "priority" to break ties that stays stable during a single encounter, but changes with every new encounter, or they might re-roll priority every time. i don't know how the devs implemented it.

    If your speed is 125, it requires exactly 8 turns to get exactly 1000 on your turn meter. If you have a speed of 126, you reach 1008 on the same turn that a toon with speed 125 reaches 1000. The order you take your actions is randomly determined, but you carry over any turn-meter points that exceed 1000. So next turn, the toon with speed 126 will be starting from 8, while the toon with speed 125 will start from zero. If you keep going long enough, those 8 extra points accumulate with every action. Eventually, after 15 actions, the next action will be reached one turn easier by a speed 126 character than a speed 125 character.

    With a speed 127 character, you only need 8 turns to get an extra action over the speed 125 character, etc.

    But certain break points are crucial because they guarantee an extra action early in the combat. A character with speed 125 will always act before a character with speed 124, because after 8 turns, a speed of 125 gets you 1000 turn meter points (enough to act) but a speed of 124 nets you only 992 turn meter points - you have to wait till next turn to go, sorry.

    Another break-point is 111/112. 111 times 9 = 999. So after 9 turns, the toon with speed 111 still cannot act, but the character with speed 112 has 1008 turn meter points, and does act. The toon with speed 112 will always get their first action of an encounter before a toon with speed 111.

    Ventures is speed 86. If she's not the leader.

    It is only when she maxes out her leadership skill at level 72 that she reaches speed 112. At level 62, she's stuck at 110 and at level 42-61 she's stuck at 108.

    Assaj Ventress is described in the books as being very fast. However, even at level 71 she's always going to take her first action on the same turn as a character with speed 100 because 9 times 110 is 990 is less than 1000, but ten times 110 is 1100 is > 1000, true, but ten times 100 is 1000. At that point, the RNG decides whether Ventress will act before or after a character with completely average-to-mediocre speed.

    On top of that, there's a speed break-point at 90/91. If Ventress is not the leader, eleven times 90 = 990 (no action yet). Eleven times 91 = 1001, so the RNG will determine where you act with all the other characters whose speed is 91-99.

    Almost no one is below 91 when you get them to level 50 or 60. She would never be acting before anyone else except a character with bad speed who then gets a bad RNG roll vs. Ventress for action priority. Only luck, then, would make her act anything other than last, if she was not leader. Making her leadership power even better might possibly make her OP, though I don't think it automatically would since it only applies to NightSisters.

    I want Ventress to hit speed 112 much sooner, as reflects how her character is written. Right now she's banned from using speed-improving gear.

    I think she should start at 86 as she does, but get a total of 5-8 points of speed-up through gear. I think 6 would be the perfect number.

    By doing it through gear you don't need to rework the leadership skill. You can have her get her points of speed at times that are appropriate in-game.

    When she's over level 50, she should have her base speed hit 91. Having her leadership-enhanced speed hit 112 is fine as early as level 42. She's still going to be outclassed in speed by someone with a 118-120, which isn't that high for the upper levels.

    This allows you to cap her leadership bonus at a slightly lower speed boost, but give her enough so that she makes her break points of 91 and 112 at reasonable levels. Despite being described in the books as a very fast character, she'll still be slow for her level even when she's leader, and she'll still be slow as heck when she's not leader, but she won't be the slowest character in the game.

    I really do disagree that her speed isn't a problem. I don't think it's a big problem, but I literally can't use her except as leader. Since her leadership skill only affects NightSisters, I literally waste one of the best leadership skills in the game (actually, more than one of the best since I also have Sid and Phasma) if I construct a team with her as leader that isn't a night sister team. Can you reasonably argue that creating a non-nightsister team and putting her in lead instead of Sid or Phasma would be a good idea? Of course not.Her leadership ability would be wasted without other NSs to speed up, and Sid and Phasma's leadership abilities would be wasted as they sat around in another slot.

    Also, if you take away her last leadership speed bump (that last +2 to speed at level 72), you can boost the other power she's got, that currently isn't interesting at all. Right now she's got a 25% chance to set opponents' turn meters back 10% any time a Nightsister hits that opponent for damage. But 10% isn't enough to make a decisive difference very often, and at 25% chance of it happening, it's not even going to happen very often.

    If the last improvement was +15% effect chance (or even +25%, but I think +15% is more reasonable) instead of +2 speed, then it still wouldn't make a decisive difference that often, but if you did get Talia + Nightsister Initiate + Ventress together, a 40% or 50% chance is big enough to happen two or 3 times in a row every once in a while. Not often, true, but every once in a while you'll get a spurt of hits that steal turn meter. it's not as good as Han's taunt (or Poe's), and certainly not as reliable. Also, it requires you to build a team with at least 3 Nightsisters. But if you do, and if you focus on a single enemy, you'll occasionally get lucky and really ruin their turn-ordering strategies. That could be fun.

    Right now? Not so much.

    FINAL VERDICT: No boost to base speed, minor gear boost to speed that is timed to level advancement, to put her at or just-barely-over 91 speed by mid-levels and at or just-barely-over 112 with her leadership skill by high-end of the midlevels (50 or 55).
  • Tusnal
    77 posts Member
    More speed
  • Tusnal
    77 posts Member
    edited April 2016
    @MasterSeedy please tell me you ally code will be a honour to have you as ally you are a machine seriously, me very surprised ;)
  • Zee
    119 posts Member
    She's my best character and as long as she's not stunned does major damage. I agree that her delays set up her strong suit which is double critical and cool down free aoe
  • @Tusnal

    Ally code 452-376-595.

    I'm still upper-end of the mid-levels. Player level is 53, will hit 54 tonight, probably. I have only 19 toons, and some are the defaults, but I've thought carefully and most of them are good ones. Just got to the point where I have enough toons and am starting to promote them in Stars. But my best toons are all still 4*. I won't get my first 5* until I 5* Luminara later this week. If I win GW the next 3 days in a row, she'll be 5* on Thursday. Otherwise it will take a bit longer.

    So, I'm playing regularly, but my toons aren't high-level yet.

    Do feel free to add me, but my toons may not help you much until a couple weeks from now when I have a 7* Luminara and some other 5* to 6* toons.

    Anyone, of course, is welcome to sent me a message. I particularly welcome requests from people under level 40 (so that I'm good enough to help you) or over level 60 (so you're good enough to help me). But I'm really happy to ally most anyone so long as I'm not at my ally-max.
  • Rie_Fu
    33 posts Member
    Achilles wrote: »
    Honestly ... i like Asajj as she is right now ... her speed is fine, when she is leader in the Nightsisters team, she moves last = there are opponents already prepared for her AoE + the opponents moved already, so her dispel works at the best timing.

    I don't think she should be fast (actually average) ONLY as a leader. We are not supposed to play Nightsister team just cause of liking Asajj, are we? In animated series and comics she is pretty agile, fast and swift when she is Dooku's apprentice (and in SWGoH ironically she's twice slower than him), so I think she has a rightful place on a sith team as much as a NS team. She needs a speed up + fixing the way AI uses Strike Fear.
  • Tusnal
    77 posts Member
    She should be both nightsisters and sith in my opinion, anyway let's hope the Dev team takes in consideration that she deserves more speed
  • Achilles
    1380 posts Member
    Rie_Fu wrote: »
    Achilles wrote: »
    Honestly ... i like Asajj as she is right now ... her speed is fine, when she is leader in the Nightsisters team, she moves last = there are opponents already prepared for her AoE + the opponents moved already, so her dispel works at the best timing.

    I don't think she should be fast (actually average) ONLY as a leader. We are not supposed to play Nightsister team just cause of liking Asajj, are we? In animated series and comics she is pretty agile, fast and swift when she is Dooku's apprentice (and in SWGoH ironically she's twice slower than him), so I think she has a rightful place on a sith team as much as a NS team. She needs a speed up + fixing the way AI uses Strike Fear.
    Asajj ... never was a Stih (there are already 10+ threads about this), but even when you say, she worked for Dooku, she should have synergies to Sith, so she should also have:
    • Synergies to Jedis (because she helped Ahsoka to find the double-dealer + she saved Obi Wan and helped him to escape from Maul and Savage)
    • Synergies to scoundrels (because she worked "for" Boda Fett for e very short periode)
    Anyway ... i agree with you, she is agile in animated series. However, making her faster would cause that they would have to reduce her damage + probably take away the cooldown-reset from AoE, because otherwise she would be OP ... not sure if anyone wants this?

    Honestly ... when they are going to make Asajj fast, they would have to redesign all her Skills/Abilities, just like they have done with Ahsoka. She is slow now, but she is functionally a great char - atleast for me in my nightsisters team.
    Left by design.
    The fixed payout times are the worst part of this game and makes it absolutely family-unfriendly.
  • Tusnal
    77 posts Member
    I also have noticed that she is using her debuff ability even if only one character has a buff

    Please fix this at least make it as Phasma's Fusillade ability, Phasma only uses it when there are more then 3 characters left in enemy squad.

    Please @EA_Jesse take this request under consideration
  • URGENT, EA_Jesse:

    Asajj is using her debut ability like a Party AoE heal instead of a solo heal. I have seen the AI use it against me when I had ***zero*** buffs up. Asajj herself was at full health, but 2 of her allies were down significant hit points.

    It appears to me as if this might explain the experience of Tusnal, as well: if the decision tree treats the healing affect as AoE and considers the health of allies, then she will use it at all the wrong times. I'm sure that's happening with my Asajj on Arena defense.

    There could be another explanation, of course, but that's the one that seems most likely based on the factors I observed.
  • URGENT, EA_Jesse:

    Asajj is using her debut ability like a Party AoE heal instead of a solo heal. I have seen the AI use it against me when I had ***zero*** buffs up. Asajj herself was at full health, but 2 of her allies were down significant hit points.

    It appears to me as if this might explain the experience of Tusnal, as well: if the decision tree treats the healing affect as AoE and considers the health of allies, then she will use it at all the wrong times. I'm sure that's happening with my Asajj on Arena defense.

    There could be another explanation, of course, but that's the one that seems most likely based on the factors I observed.

    Also note that Asajj's buff removal does NOT work on QGJ or Dooku applied offense up buffs 100% of the time @EA_Jesse

    A potentially good character being held back tremendously by bugs.
  • MattSax wrote: »
    URGENT, EA_Jesse:

    Asajj is using her debut ability like a Party AoE heal instead of a solo heal. I have seen the AI use it against me when I had ***zero*** buffs up. Asajj herself was at full health, but 2 of her allies were down significant hit points.

    It appears to me as if this might explain the experience of Tusnal, as well: if the decision tree treats the healing affect as AoE and considers the health of allies, then she will use it at all the wrong times. I'm sure that's happening with my Asajj on Arena defense.

    There could be another explanation, of course, but that's the one that seems most likely based on the factors I observed.

    Also note that Asajj's buff removal does NOT work on QGJ or Dooku applied offense up buffs 100% of the time @EA_Jesse

    A potentially good character being held back tremendously by bugs.

    +1 same situation here
  • Mrek0
    188 posts Member
    Your speed is too low!
  • Her speed as leader is fine at level 70.

    She just needs to reach her leader-adjusted speed much earlier in the game. The difference between 108 and 112 is much more important in the first turn than those 4 notches would suggest...and though after the first turn the distinction loses its importance fairly quickly, if Ventress isn't too fast at 112, then making her reach it around 40-45 isn't going to be a balance problem.

    Making her a bit faster at the bottom end, however, is something I could support. This would require making her leadership speed-boost less powerful for other NightSisters, so that she still maxes out her speed at 112 (or at the very, very most 115, but keeping it 112 or 113 would be much better). Would you be willing to lose her leadership speed boost for all the other NightSisters in order to make Ventress 5 to 7 points faster (boosting her speed to 91-93) when Ventress isn't in the leader slot?

    I'd be happy with that, but think of the trade-offs before you answer.
  • Baal
    602 posts Member
    There is more than one way to skin a cat. You can make her faster without her as a lead.
  • @Baal:

    yes, of course, and I propose that. But if you want her to be the same speed she is now when she's lead, AND you want to increase her base speed, then naturally the leadership bonus has to come down by the same amount (or roughly) as the base speed goes up.
  • Baal
    602 posts Member
    edited April 2016
    No, what I mean is tm manipulators can make the speed thing irrelevant.

    Like in the game right now, with no changea necessary. She's powerful.
  • I agree that she's powerful when run by a player (her AI is very buggy, though). Nonetheless, a lot of people are unhappy with her speed.

    My biggest complaint with her speed is that it's so slow that it's hard to get good use out of her when she's not the leader. THUS you have to run a NightSister team (which I do, and which I love) or you can't use her. That's a real shame. I'd like to see her base speed boosted just enough that I feel comfortable using her with other leaders. But with the turn meter manipulation of Rampage and with other aspects of the character, I don't want her to get too fast. That's why I propose what I propose.

    Separately, and I know that not everyone agrees with this, I want to see more gender diversity. The Sith all appear masculine, the NightSisters feminine. There are two human women (Leia, Rey), and only one other feminine character (Captain Phasma...probably human, but we don't know). You have a few named feminine characters among the Jedi, but none among the Empire or Scoundrel factions at all. Making the existing feminine characters synergies with each other, as they've done with the NightSisters, is good as it lets you run a good team, but since there are far more masculine characters in the game, I'd rather that the good characters (like Ventress) who are human women and/or feminine aliens be better equipped to play on teams that aren't all human women/feminine aliens. Since Ventress speed is soooooo bad when she isn't leader, that means making her leader and either wasting a leadership ability to make one character playable ...or it means playing a NightSister team.

    I don't like being pigeonholed.
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