Tenacity discussion

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Ok, i'm a bit confused about tenacity/potency interaction. 3 days ago CG_Kozispoon (dev team) wrote this:
"Defender's chance to resist = Defender's Tenacity.
Attacker's Potency, minimum 15%.
If you have 30% tenacity and somebody hits you with 15% potency, you have a 15% chance to resist. You'd also have a 15% chance to resist if they had 50% potency, or 50000%."

https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/57672/clarification-on-tenacity-potency

Probably my IQ is too low, but if this is true, potency doesn't matter but only tenacity.

Replies

  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    removed
    Post edited by leef on
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  • Tenacious D.
    Enuff said.
  • leef wrote: »
    minimum chance to resist doesnt change whether the attacker has equal potency or much more potency. If you have 100% tenacity and the attacker has 0% potency you'd have a 85% chance to resist.
    you will always have a minimum of 15% chance to resist and to hit. everything between 15% and 85% is determined by the difference between potency and tenacity of the characters involved.

    atleast, that is what i think @CG_Kozispoon said.

    So if someone hit you with 40%potency and you have mod, which makes your tenacity 42%, the chance to resist is 17%? If that's what you're saying, tenacity mods are useless - you'll have 15% chance even without this mod.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    removed
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    15% potency attacking a 30% tenacity = 15% chance to resist.
    100% potency attacking a 30% tenacity = 15% chance to resist.
    That leads me to conclude that you need atleast a difference of 15% in order to have a higher chance to resist than without tenacity (0%)
    But doesnt it seem odd that a debuff has 85% chance to land even if the defending toon has 15% more tenacity than the attacker has potency ?
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  • 85% chance to not be resisted if your potency > their tenacity, and then the ability has its own trigger rate.

    So if your potency is 21% their tenacity is 20%, your stuff still has an 85% chance of not being resisted? From being over just 1%? And if it were flipped, them over by 1%, you'd drop to a 15% of working?

    I'm gonna have to reread...
  • So Tenacity has to be greater than 15% over their Potency to do anything...kinda weak.

    And if by chance it's 90% more, you're wasting 5%.

    Okay, I get it.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    So Tenacity has to be greater than 15% over their Potency to do anything...kinda weak.

    And if by chance it's 90% more, you're wasting 5%.

    Okay, I get it.

    doesnt it seem very odd to you ?
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  • @StormTro0p3R_H Man, can't understand your logic. Is there some?
  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    Every thing is based on chance, RNG.

    The rate listed in the ability, 80% stun, is before looking at tenacity and potency

    If RNG roll processes the stun. Than potency and tenacity is compared and in some magical formula with rng it is determined if it is applied or resisted.

    More potency better chance of applying
    I have Teebo Potency at 86% and Rancor resists less but still resists.

    More tenacity better chance of resisting
    I have my Sun Fac Tenacity at 82% and RG stun is resisted more than it is applied.

    Potency and Tenacity is not really "wasted" the higher the number the better chance to apply or resist.
  • WhaleKiller1
    517 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    I have +24% tenacity mods on three of mine putting them at over 50% and they still get stunned by 40% or so RGs regularly. Seems like a waste of mod space. They need to make tenacity more powerful.
  • scuba wrote: »

    Potency and Tenacity is not really "wasted" the higher the number the better chance to apply or resist.

    Yeah, but we need the exact formula of scaling tenacity vs potency. We need to know is it worth to go after tenacity sets for example. Because if huge tenacity numbers increase only abit chances for resist, slots can be used for better mods.
  • Durrun
    1019 posts Member
    My question is does this fact favor resist or debuff? Are strong debuffers going to become more prevalent with people not wasting slots on tenacity? Or does the 15% resist still stop Tarkin seeing the light of day?
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    Durrun wrote: »
    My question is does this fact favor resist or debuff? Are strong debuffers going to become more prevalent with people not wasting slots on tenacity? Or does the 15% resist still stop Tarkin seeing the light of day?

    i guess that all depends on how tenacity/potency is calculated. From what i can see tenacity is just very very weak. You need tons of tenacity to actually have a higher chance to resist than the base 15%. That is assuming players properly mod potency, wich looks like people are doing.
    i'm still holding off on a final verdict, because i am not sure it actually works in the way i think it works. I hope a dev can shine some light on this issue.
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  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    Martianski wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »

    Potency and Tenacity is not really "wasted" the higher the number the better chance to apply or resist.

    Yeah, but we need the exact formula of scaling tenacity vs potency. We need to know is it worth to go after tenacity sets for example. Because if huge tenacity numbers increase only abit chances for resist, slots can be used for better mods.

    I agree we should have that information, I don't see it being shared though.
  • StormTro0p3R_H
    1643 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    Some examples to show how I understand this to work:

    Old Ben potency = .4

    Admiral Ackbar tenacity = .9

    Stormtrooper Han Tenacity = .6

    Admiral Ackbar resists (.9-.4) of the time, max .85, min .15 = .5

    So 50% of the time AA will resist OB's negative effects.

    Stormtrooper Han resists (.6-.4) of the time, max .85, min .15 = .2

    So 20% of the time STH will resist OB's negative effects.

    These are the resists, not the procs, so if the effect triggers only 65% of the time, like OB's turn meter reduction, then the likelihood of STH suffering the turn redux is (.65*(1-.2)) = .52.

    Now if by chance my tenacity on any of my characters is greater than 125%, then I will still only be resisting this Old Ben in the example 85% of the time. And if I have no tenacity at all, up to 55% tenacity, I will still be resisting 15% of the time, again using this OB example.

    Tenacity is only really "wasted" if you are .85+ above the highest potency character on your leaderboard. Then there is no reason to be more tenacious. Increasing potency will only be beneficial until you already have .85+ more potency than the highest tenacity character on your leaderboard. So, however small a chance it is, there is potential for waste in these stats.
  • Durrun
    1019 posts Member
    Can always count on you to do the hard math @StormTro0p3R_H thanks
  • I think the OP's point is more that any tenacity at all is wasted *unless* you have a boatload of it. You need potency +16% to even see a tiny (1%) benefit, so you will get more bang for your mod slot using pretty much anything else. Looking at your math, I can't disagree with that assessment.
  • SNAKEMAN
    470 posts Member
    Can we get a answer from the source about it tenacity vs potency? @CG_Kozispoon

    I feel like this would help the player base make more informed decisions on what to do.
    IGN: RANKMAN
    Line: xSNAKEMAN
  • Meerava
    481 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    I questioned this last week. https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/57620/36-tenacity-70-potency#latest

    In my experience I use Daka, with 70% potency. Yes, Daka only has a 60% chance of applying stun, and when she does, you better believe I pay attention to when she gets resisted.

    According to the calculations in this thread and by what @CG_Kozispoon wrote, you would need 86% tenacity in order for Daka's potency to be fully nullified. Yet multiple times against toons with 30-35% tenacity my Daka gets resisted at least 50% of the time. Yes, that lowers potency to 40%, but POTENCY being 40% should not mean it gets resisted that much, otherwise the lower potency someone has they would NEVER get a debuff off. (Characters start at 0 potency anyway.)
  • Durrun
    1019 posts Member
    Did a GW node with only 5s on team, got stunned by RG one time in the encounter, left game and redid same node same conditions with +18% tenacity on a mod.. Got stunned by everything couldn't retreat and lost him for the rest of my attempts.... Great
  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    I think the OP's point is more that any tenacity at all is wasted *unless* you have a boatload of it. You need potency +16% to even see a tiny (1%) benefit, so you will get more bang for your mod slot using pretty much anything else. Looking at your math, I can't disagree with that assessment.

    I do agree if you are going to add tenacity you need to add a lot, or it is a waste.
  • Kozispoon
    3245 posts EA Staff (retired)
    Check out the post linked above @SNAKEMAN , though I think the forums formatting of my original response may of mislead folks into taking what I said a wee bit off the deep end.

    Defender has 50 tenacity. You have 5 potency = Defender has 45% chance to resist.
    You have 10 potency, defender has 40% chance to resist etc.

    until you get to 35 potency, when the defender has a 15% chance to resist any more potency past that is useless against THAT target, because they can't have a lower resist chance than 15%
    So if you have 50% potency, they still have a 15% chance to resist. Or if you have 100% potency, or 100000% (Mind you, this has NOTHING to do with the trigger chance on effects, either)

    Thank you for your patience 8D Forum Guidelines
  • So now that we have that cleared up...whats the tenacity of the rancor on heroic? Im guessing between 80-90%, which would mean potency greater than 75% is useless.
  • Check out the post linked above @SNAKEMAN , though I think the forums formatting of my original response may of mislead folks into taking what I said a wee bit off the deep end.

    Defender has 50 tenacity. You have 5 potency = Defender has 45% chance to resist.
    You have 10 potency, defender has 40% chance to resist etc.

    until you get to 35 potency, when the defender has a 15% chance to resist any more potency past that is useless against THAT target, because they can't have a lower resist chance than 15%
    So if you have 50% potency, they still have a 15% chance to resist. Or if you have 100% potency, or 100000% (Mind you, this has NOTHING to do with the trigger chance on effects, either)
    Thank you for clarifying! My Sun Fac is at 85% tenacity and most old bens on my server are 40 to 50% potency so I'm getting a 35% chance to resist verse the standard 15% for my other weak tenacity guys sitting at 40% tenacity roughly. Good to know!
    IGN: RANKMAN
    Line: xSNAKEMAN
  • Durrun
    1019 posts Member
    So Luke led sun Fac viable XD
  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    @CG_Kozispoon thank you for answering this question! This would be great if information like this could be stickyed or saved.
  • Kozispoon
    3245 posts EA Staff (retired)
    @scuba Things that make ya go hmm! I may just. This definitely made more sense to me when I had to go look it up, haha!
    Thank you for your patience 8D Forum Guidelines
  • Thank you, very much @CG_Kozispoon

    May the Force be with you. :smile:
  • ZurinFet
    261 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    Tenacity plays a bigger role in PVE content for now. If Stun Set gets implemented, you could see a minor increase in tenacity value as a stat.

    Problem is, characters are poorly balanced regarding tenacity/potency. You have characters with 60% + potency from gear alone, while the top tenacity character has only 39% and the average is 25%.

    In PVP, anything above 24% potency is a waste. If they mod for tenacity (lets say +24%), then you would need 48% potency right?

    Then you stop and remember that any character that needs potency for PVE content, is already modded for potency. They are above that threshold already.

    Its not that Tenacity is too low.. its that Potency is waaaay high for most characters.


    Only way of fixing it is by stripping a lot of potency from characters, while keeping tenacity current values and then re-balancing Tenacity/Potency mods.

    BUT, that won't happen.
    Post edited by ZurinFet on
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