Poe speed/meter-reduction intact + visible teams = Poe problem actually gets worse with the update

Replies

  • Ello_Asty
    562 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    As I understand it, this thread is not about Poe. It is about the decision to see who you will be facing in Arena just like GW. Well, in GW, you have 12 battles with no cooldown or health refreshes. Seeing the opponent's squad lets us plan the best counter. In my opinion, Poe or not, it is already difficult to defend with the AI and now it will be impossible. Hiding 4/5ths of the team was your only chance when teams with a much lesser roster can beat any defending team.

    Also, when did salty start meaning something like behaving angrily? I learned that term in the military 30 years ago. It means someone who has been around a long time and deserves respect though they might be letting themselves slip a bit as they near retirement.

    Finally, synergy does not mean running an entire resistance team. Resistance is another class like attacker or tank...in this case a class like first order or empire. A synergy is like if Darth Vader and Old Ben worked together, what could they accomplish? Classes like resistance are supposed to synergize though not always perfectly.

    Sorry, pet peeves of mine...
    ☮ Consular ☮ Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. -Ben Kenobi
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    Nonemo wrote: »

    Game developers ALWAYS have resources at hand for game tearing that players can never hope to get unless they start hacking. They MADE the dang game. Of course they know stuff we don't. Why are you even contending this point?
    Those same developers built the original retreat system and didn't notice it could be used to instadispel buffs and debuffs. They made the seeded RNG and didn't notice it could be abusable, something the players found like 2 hours after release. Recently a dev made an explanation in reddit about how speed works, which doesn't hold grounf in real game.


    The devs have insider knowledge, but they aren't omniscient. Sometimes they focus on how things are intended not how things are.
  • TheEwokKing
    36 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Anyone know if Cad Bane get enough speed with Lando as leader to stun glove Poe first round?

    Maybe reading into it but, the Devs give us FOTFP and IG 86 for daily login 2 out of 3 months, both own with Poe. Cad was the month in between. Could he be an answer?
  • Qeltar wrote: »
    @Relish_Yoda - We'll see. I admire your optimism.
    @Cpt_Dan - I am not sure what Poe teams you are facing, and admittedly I don't have Jinn yet. But right now when I face a Poe team with FOTP and droids and such, my guys are all dead before I can really do anything, expose or not.

    I've faced those. See them in my braket daily. I beat them too. I get whiped by them too, but I beat them. We are not supposed to win every fight we go into. That would be dull. on the flip side so is getting whiped out before you can attack.

    I hate the term OP I do not believe in it. I also hate nerfs. I do think Poe needed balance, as did FOTP. Poe take 1 speed of he is not turn 7. Fixed. FOTP make him the slowest in game, or drop his HP to allign with Rey. A 1 hit killer with tank HP is off balance. Do I see him, yes, do I beat him, yes, do I get 1 hit demolished by him, yes.

    I love to experiment also, however I have to run a fairly cookie cutter if I want to be in the top 30 on ine, let alone top 10. I hate using Poe to be honest. Though he has made life easier.

    The Poe vs Poe coin flip though is not really that. Those whose Poe goes first wins, not always true either. There is a strategy to beating a Poe who goes first when you run Poe. I've tested it.

    To the poster who said "Dooku always goes before Poe" You are incorrect my friend. I have Dooku max gear so 161 speed. highest speed rate in game. Turn 7 is RNG mate. Any at 143+ have an equal shot to go first. When I was running 4 turn 7 toons there were times Dooku went 4th.

    Wait until you all start seeing leveled, geared, starred up Reys in your bracket. You think Poe is OP. Try a turn 7 20k Crit capable toon,lol. Rey has 143 speed and can 1 hit ANY toon you have. She is low HP so easy to kill, but has High dodge. Wait until you see the build I'll make with her in the months when I finally unlock her. Chromium is not the way I've bought over 2 dozen since she came out and not 1 shard even,lol.

    In the end I hate OP talk and nerfs. I do think Poe needed a -1 speed, not because he was OP, not because I could not beat him, simply because I am bored of facing the same teams day in and day out, and I'm sick of being stuck using him myself just to stay up high so I can get the tokens for what I'm building next.

    I also agree on the bullying. For awhile being in my top 10 I was running a team that was 3-4K lower than anyone in my top 30. I had only 2, 7* toons in it. Yet I could take 1, was in the top 10 competing and beating the Poe/DPS teams. I got attacked at times, but I was left alone some too because I was constantly up there with a low power team I must have been hiding something. had my whole team been visible I'd have been assaulted mercilessly. My other thing on the seeing all squad is it does weaken then Defense even more being able to prepare to face it. AI is poor, now you make it able to see the entire squad, no more surprise as stated above.

    Now I'll play Devils Advocate here. You get to see and select who you are attacking. What matchup is easier for your team. Or like me I have a big bench. I can build a team to beat who I attack, so long as I'm willing to leave that team there on defense. So the check here is yes I can build to win against a target, the flipside is I waste a precious fight to get my main team back,, and this new team is also exposed and may be terrible on D. This favors those willing to spend crystals on Arena to refresh right away and reset. I am one of those, however many are not.

    Point is several needed balancing and bugs fixed, some bugs fixed, others not, no real balance was done. Let's remember though there was a ton to do. Lets look at how many cool things are added. I'm excited about the update. I do agree though the Poe issue was not addressed at all here. Part of me is ok with it, the Part who spent money on Barriss and she was hammered with the nerf stick for "leaving other healers in the dust performance wise" Which Poe does to other tanks even more so than she did, is pretty steamed. Though it was a huige backlash and perhaps they are learning from the mistake, yes it was a mistake nerfing her, in the past.

    Great job on the update. Good points to all posters here.

  • Nice post Shawn
    ☮ Consular ☮ Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. -Ben Kenobi
  • d3gauss wrote: »
    Anyone else get the idea @Gurley30 works for cg? Just all of a sudden popped up praising the devs all the time. Never really adds to the conversation just little one sentence "devs are great!". Couple this with the fact that he had a newly created account that heavily references the rams who are moving to california...conspiracy.

    LOL

    The conspiracy theories are real.

    I literally just posted a thread only three days ago which heavily criticized the lack of communication by the Devs.
  • Koney
    9 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    The problem with seeing other teams is that if you run a comp that performs well but the AI sucks, then you get **** in the ****. People are going to figure out who runs a comp with terrible AI pretty quickly. I could see myself getting destroyed in this fashion.

    I agree you shouldn't be able to see someone else's team.

    Maybe if the AI was competent this wouldn't be as much of a problem but now the team you run not only has to be good but also needs to be herp derp enough that the AI plays it well or you will get royally **** on the ladder. Their game is not competent enough to support this change.
  • @CronozNL is also a cg account I see...
  • Nail. On. Head.

    Poe's the best tank because he's the fastest tank. Full stop. I don't understand how that wasn't addressed. He could do literally nothing else except Taunt and still be the best tank because he's the only tank who can reliably fire a taunt before your glass cannons get assassinated.
    You have to be a bit of a liar to tell a story the right way.
  • If poe turn meter reduction was taken away or even made to be resistable then I would have no issue with this update. But seeing how that's not the case, poe is the only thing I have an issue with.

    I'm always top 4 in my bracket ( most of the times 1st ) and the only counter to poe is poe himself. I spent last couple weeks trying out different combos to combat poe. I wanted to see if I could find anything and guess what. I couldn't. I have stopped my expirmentation and went back to using my main team so I could start finishing 1st once again.

    7* phasma lead
    6* poe
    7* FOTP
    7* qgj
    7* leia

    Possible the new characters they are releasing could counter poe, but I don't think so. Guess we will have to wait and see.
  • Varlie
    1286 posts Member
    Heisen wrote: »
    I think you are underestimating the collective intelligence of a large playerbase. Believe me, people are trying all sorts of things and eventually people will find things that developers often don't. The playerbase is like a living monte-carlo simulation so to speak.

    While this is true and players will invariably come across something the developers didn't think of, people are (by and large) sheep and once they have found something that works really well (Poe+FOTP), they stick with it until the next big thing comes along.
    What the developers have is the data of all the attacks made in the game and the knowledge of what is available and what is coming.

    If the past 12 hours worth of posts prove anything is that the players 'think' they know better than the developers on what needs to be done without the benefit of a) the background information - we still only have limited access to numbers based on what the app displays and some creative math-genius players and b) an innate, I could do a better game than this mentality that some people like to express.

    Please don't get me wrong. I have seen players have profound impact on a lot of games and I think most developers rely on input to further improve playability but at some point, you have to trust the devs at least long enough to actually TEST their changes before saying it won't work or was a stupid change.
  • J7000
    2059 posts Member
    CronozNL wrote: »
    @Qeltar
    You really need to spend less time here mate. You're starting to turn into something other than december Qeltar. I notice the same, I'm getting more obnoxious here :) Especially with my immature meme spammage from time to time. Anyway, take a break and come back in a different mind set.
    You guys are all overdiscussing something that shouldn't need to be discussed atm.
    Poe is beatable, many vids to "show" that are around on this forum.
    If Poe wouldn't be viable anymore, QGJ will get the hit next. After QGJ people scream about GS and after GS were back to the Sid/Phasma being OP discussion.
    It's an endless circle and I really do think that with this change, the outcome might be different than we think.
    We assume too much. Also reading stuff like: update is already disappointing me, means you spend too much time getting off on Arena ranking. Arena is a small part of this game, it will improve but I care the least.
    Also they hit the nerf too hard on Barriss, I can imagine they don't want to make the same mistake.
    Nerfing Poe into nothing will cause more backlash. Also I read they are still testing so it's not definitive. Good expressing your concerns but don't take it too seriously.

    I'm curious how many even realize at this point how ridiculous the nerf to Bariss actually was. Don't get me wrong she's the Queen of GW. Maybe used still in arena by a very very limited number of teams with the right composition. But hey some think she still needs a nerf LOL
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    Varlie wrote: »
    Please don't get me wrong. I have seen players have profound impact on a lot of games and I think most developers rely on input to further improve playability but at some point, you have to trust the devs at least long enough to actually TEST their changes before saying it won't work or was a stupid change.
    They've released the patch notes. They do not address the issue with Poe and introduce a new feature that may make it worse.
    I am trusting the devs: that they did what their patch notes say. If that's the case, then they have not dealt with the problem. If it turns out other things change or the patch notes weren't accurate, then obviously we reassess.
    I'm just responding to the information available and warning people without Poe that they will now have targets on their backs.
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • Nonemo wrote: »
    I think the developers see a lot of things we don't see. Because, well, they do. They have access to levels of testing and running teams, simulating thousands of battles, that we as players don't. John Salera has stated that there are a lot of synergies out there that haven't been found and exploited yet.

    It may just be that they aren't fixing Poe because there are already solutions in place, if players would look more carefully, try new strategies and not just jump on the bandwagon.

    The teams we see today are incredibly streamlined, and I honestly don't see much experimentation going on. Damage maximization is the same kind of lazy quick route that makes people decide to always roll a Barbarian with a big axe in D&D. It's standard model 1A for fighting, and it's enchanting because people like big numbers popping up on the screen. They're much easier to understand than the finer points about how skills and synergies can be set up to harmonize.

    I refuse to believe that we as a community have already emptied the game and its huge character roster of possible synergies and combos in just a few months. I can easily name 20-30 characters that I NEVER see in play. And don't tell me it's because "they suck". In the beginning nobody wanted Poe either. They just regarded him as another tank toon with weak attack power and too little HP to survive his own taunt. Then somebody discovered a usage.

    Often enough, that's all a "meta" really is. At least in a well balanced game. All players running the same team, because they've learned "this is the best". Until somebody figures out the counter.

    So that's why I'm building experimental teams and focusing on the fun, while y'all keep whining about this one Poe.

    This guy gets it. You have to make a bigger pool to get past certain teams.
    You can all go to hell, me... I'll go to Texas
  • Jedisplice wrote: »
    Nonemo wrote: »
    I think the developers see a lot of things we don't see. Because, well, they do. They have access to levels of testing and running teams, simulating thousands of battles, that we as players don't. John Salera has stated that there are a lot of synergies out there that haven't been found and exploited yet.

    It may just be that they aren't fixing Poe because there are already solutions in place, if players would look more carefully, try new strategies and not just jump on the bandwagon.

    The teams we see today are incredibly streamlined, and I honestly don't see much experimentation going on. Damage maximization is the same kind of lazy quick route that makes people decide to always roll a Barbarian with a big axe in D&D. It's standard model 1A for fighting, and it's enchanting because people like big numbers popping up on the screen. They're much easier to understand than the finer points about how skills and synergies can be set up to harmonize.

    I refuse to believe that we as a community have already emptied the game and its huge character roster of possible synergies and combos in just a few months. I can easily name 20-30 characters that I NEVER see in play. And don't tell me it's because "they suck". In the beginning nobody wanted Poe either. They just regarded him as another tank toon with weak attack power and too little HP to survive his own taunt. Then somebody discovered a usage.

    Often enough, that's all a "meta" really is. At least in a well balanced game. All players running the same team, because they've learned "this is the best". Until somebody figures out the counter.

    So that's why I'm building experimental teams and focusing on the fun, while y'all keep whining about this one Poe.

    This guy gets it. You have to make a bigger pool to get past certain teams.

    That's impossible on defense. You and the person you quoted missed the entire point of the thread, or at least elected to ignore it. Every non-Poe team will now be a target, so switching your bench around on attack won't matter unless you bring in a Poe of your own. If you don't have him, or don't have him leveled, you are going to pay for it.
  • Ilza
    67 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    While I'm not sure that the Poe nerf was enough, I do think that many players kinda gave up on this meta while waiting for the patch. Now that we know that the problems with Poe still have to be solved then solutions may turn up.

    I don't expect there to be many solutions to Poe, but it's not impossible that there is one. It will probably hinge on the fact that Poe is almost useless after his taunt, and it's not impossible to disrupt the damagedealers before Poe taunts. With FOTP getting easier to take out before a taunt, the assist damage will not be as ridiculous as before which is something. Also there will be new characters, and if some of them place into speed turn 7 then magic could happen.
  • Think I came across my first max speed Poe and amazingly enough I didn't consider it too OP. I ran Sid, QGJ, Dooku, Lumi with a Barriss lead and I lost at the last toon each when he managed to just about tap out my link with his Sid.

    However I'm reminded of Smogon. For those who don't know Smogon is a set of Pokemon rules for competitive battling. It works on tiering toons to allow everyone their time to shine at and the principle of banning toons from a particular tier was simple;

    Is the toon overpowered? In Poe's case it's arguable.

    Does the toon force you to run a certain strategy to combat it? Abso-freaking-lutely

    You have to basically run Dooku, QGJ or another Poe to combat him and that's the crux, when one character shifts the whole meta to revolve around him and how you combat him.

    I like the Expose tweak, would be nice but it's the turn meter removal that is the real issue because if it comes off and there's some good burst damage on his team then I'm left with using the Lumi Mega Heal on the first turn and I like to try and save that for a pinch moment, Barriss' break doesn't work because it's not one being targeted usually.

    However I want to see how the meta changes. Let's not forget there are new characters coming, if three or four of these combat Poe efficiently then the argument changes as there would be a wide variety to tactics rather than just pray for stun or QGJ
  • Foolish you are to not make me the center of your squad. I am the most powerful of any Hero in StarWars world.
  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    I decided to experiment for s&g today on my hard launch day server. I took my 4* Poe, 5* Anakin, 4* Poggle, 7* Luminara and Sidious with a total power of 23,073 to rank 12 before 6pm.

    Now it's not uncommon for me to get there. I typically run a different team. I can't remember the last time I finished outside of the top 20; but, without Poe I would never have been able to get where I did with that underPoewered team.

    image_zpscgk9axo8.png

    image_zpsqewwhsuy.png
  • Barrok
    1753 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    At the top of the heap, we already know who does or who doesn't have Poe. To be honest, I have Poe so it doesn't matter who I attack but even by seeing people's rosters, it won't change anything (at least in the top 10).

    Now, maybe in the 40+'s, it might.

    Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I think Poe is taking a step back, lower tenacity makes QGJ's ability get resisted less, will get stunned more, and losing Expose chance is actually really big. The resistance teams relies on people getting exposed (resistance trooper won't get such a big turn meter now). Teams like mine (droid style with sid and poe and gs) rely on expose to push out the AOE damage.

    Before we can make a judgement call on if the meta will change or not (we still don't know everything about yoda), it's really not worth the effort to get all up in arms when things could easily not play out the way you expect.

    Edit: Oh snap, you are on my server! Or, I am on your server! ;)
  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    Barrok wrote: »
    Oh snap, you are on my server! Or, I am on your server! ;)

    Lol yup. :p

    I often finish in top 10. Never below top 20. It just depends on snipes.
  • Agreed, but for a couple of different reasons.

    The update looks very promising on all parts, EXCEPT the arena changes that almost all look childish. The entire team reveal is one of the **** (yes, come at me swear filter for dramatic effect) changes they could've applied. First of all, the bullying effect, or just the fact that more people will "try" your team if you don't play regular cookie cutter stuff.
    But secondly, what annoys me most, it destroyed one of the unique parts of the game that made it actually challenging: knowing as much as possible about as many heroes as possible to be able to judge an opponent's strategy and/or synergy upon entering a battle. Now all you have to do is refresh a couple of times, push back, go to inventory, read everything, then go back to arena.
    Proud and Belgian officer of [DTA] BIER DTA | official Lando Calrissian fanboy KappaPride
  • Stop crying about Poe.

    Life's hard.
  • KAULI
    517 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Now that I got your attention, lets talk about (. )( .)
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    Really productive thread
  • yes, I only answered to see 100% no on this question.
    ʕっ•ᴥ•ʔっ ︵ DOE
  • I appreciate
  • This poll is ridiculous, yes Poe needs a nerf.
    My name is cosmicturtle333, aka CT-333, aka Threes.
  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    MenaceTEC wrote: »
    Stop crying about Poe.

    Life's hard.

    Just stop.
    MenaceTEC wrote: »
    All these GW posts pop up today? I see a theme...

    "Last two days GW was too hard!"

    Well I have to agree lol

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