Poe Dameron balancing

Replies

  • I know people who have invested tons of resources into alternative teams who are now on the verge of quitting.

    This X 1000

    People have been punished for going out on a limb.

    Yet another example of people only wanting what they have to be the best.
  • J7000
    2059 posts Member
    Qeltar wrote: »
    What I see here is a pretty even split.

    What you see is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

    You need a break from the forum. Your mellow drama is reaching ridiculous proportions. Hero complex? Go volunteer somewhere. No one is feasting on the innocent. Lithium?
  • I mostly take issue with how you are approaching his nerfs.

    Poe's ability to tank is defined by his Tenacity, and therefore ability to slightly self heal. You reduced that, probably fairly drastically, and now the self-healing portion simply won't happen a fair amount of the time.

    Expose is thematic to Resistance. But 85% chance to land is actually fair, considering he can have 55% Potency, which is a not-inconsiderable amount.

    As @Qeltar said, the problem is the turn meter reduction, and the fact that you can simply NOT GET A CHANCE TO GO.

    Remove the TM reduction from his Taunt (and maybe add a Defense or Health Up buff), leave the rest in place, and you will have a weaker, but still usable Poe who doesn't lead to an instant 2 or 3v5.

    It's not hard. I'm probably going to make a BlueStacks video showing several days worth of glass cannon Poe v Poe fights, just to underline this point.
  • Are you going to do anything about this?
    TahLnzM.png

    In my opinion the problem isn't Poe, it's the ability to see who does or doesn't have Poe. From this (small and biased) poll you can see that it is a 50/50 split between being liked or disliked. Would you really implement a new feature when half of the playerbase is against it.

    What I see here is a pretty even split.

    Exactly. It is evenly split. That means 1/2 of all of the players who voted dislike the change. Will CG implement a new feature that half of the players dislike?
    My name is cosmicturtle333, aka CT-333, aka Threes.
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Aluxendr wrote: »
    As @Qeltar said, the problem is the turn meter reduction, and the fact that you can simply NOT GET A CHANCE TO GO.

    Remove the TM reduction from his Taunt (and maybe add a Defense or Health Up buff), leave the rest in place, and you will have a weaker, but still usable Poe who doesn't lead to an instant 2 or 3v5.

    It's not hard.

    No, it's not. And yet after weeks of being patted on the head and being told "don't worry, we are on top of it", we're still here.
    I'm also unclear on why exactly it is good to drag out the process of adjusting a clearly overpowered character. Okay they want to avoid a massive Barriss overnerf. Great. But this is a 0% nerf to the things that make Poe OP. It doesn't address the issue at all, and then saying you might change him again, just leaves everyone completely confused. And it means that by the time proper action is taken, even more people will be unhappy because they put resources into him.
    This is not like the Barriss nerf but lighter. This would be like Barriss being considered too good of a healer, so you reduce the proc rate of Swift Recovery.
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • J7000 wrote: »
    I don't even care what you guys nerf anymore.. Team Nerf is just gonna push and push until they get what they want. The fact that the devs are nerfing Poe AND have announced they will nerf again still isn't good enough for these clowns. Do what you wish. Buffing is so much more interesting and creative imo. Keep caving to forum rage and well, good luck. Long live Bariss.

    Yes, absolutely! Let's buff everyone until they all have one-shotting AoEs. So interesting, so much fun.

    -a clown
  • MenaceTEC wrote: »
    I know people who have invested tons of resources into alternative teams who are now on the verge of quitting.

    This X 1000

    People have been punished for going out on a limb.

    Yet another example of people only wanting what they have to be the best.

    That isn't true at all, I went into this game knowing I wasn't using the best Heroes, but I also knew that I had a decent chance of ranking fairly high, and I have done so. But with the skirt lifting change now anyone who isn't using a cookie cutter build will be crushed. It's as simple as that.
    My name is cosmicturtle333, aka CT-333, aka Threes.
  • MenaceTEC wrote: »
    @EA_Jesse @CG_JohnSalera why would devs create balance by reducing the target OP toon of the month in these forums? I believe this happened before with Barriss.

    I contend that Sid is much more OP, same with Lea, FOTP, Genosian... Need I go on? All of which I have myself.

    People want to complain that they were in the top 10 when they started and now they can't because of Poe. This will just continue until every character has his month in the OP post tirades of those who aren't winning.

    I've been supportive, even in this last update although it devalues something I spent my own real money on. Changing bugs with the way Phasma was intended to work is different than catering to those who complain the most.

    Had they focused on Poe rather than Sid they would be crying for a nerf of Sid or whoever they don't have or don't want to use.

    So eloquent. I feel exactly this same way. Also, the problem is dmg/HP. Battles should last 4 turns or 6. Let people comand a flow that isn't entirely defined in first 3 chars to randomly go first.
    When things get defined by what RNG did in the first 3 turns, it hints damage/HP as the cause, and all the rants as symptoms.

    More teams abuse Sid, Phasma, GS, QGJ than Poe. That's because they can decide a battle with 2 early assists plus Sid AoE. Nobody cares about Immunity Block anymore. And nobody cares about healers. And nobody cares abiut turn 12 chars. Not in Arena.

  • Mofojokers1992
    1975 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    This is good. Take the recent patch for Battlefront as an example…I'm not saying DICE did poorly to nerf practically every star card in Battlefront, because overall it was good, but cases like the bow caster are good examples of how devs can go too far with a nerf.

    They over did it big time and even i stop playing the game.

    Thanks Jesse this is the right way to do it but i hope you guys will atleast bring the other tanks up to him then.
  • ThePedroKid
    368 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Here's my issue...

    Any turn meter/speed change to Poe will immediately break him and he won't get used at all anymore.

    That means there is no longer a Tank for Arena, Period.

    So, now we go to a meta of all ultra high dps/speed toons and that's that.

    All the people who built more balanced teams around a logical trifecta (tank, healer, dps) are screwed and all the wallet warriors who have every high dps/speed toon can just keep on destroying.

    Until there are other tank options that can work in that role in Arena (and, no, there currently aren't due to their limitations), Poe is needed.

    Maybe stop thinking about it as 'Poe' but as 'tank'. The problem is a) damage in Arena is WAY TOO HIGH and b) all other tanks are garbage in Arena.

    If you want to break Poe, fine. Throw out everyone who leveled and geared Poe's month+ of game resources and time out. But, then what? Nothing changes.

    Poe alone is not the problem. So, many highdmg/speed toons is. If a toon is high damage, their health AND their speed should reflect that (aka, low health, slow speed). Right now, it's the opposite. They have high speed AND high damage (and the damage is far too great for the health pools in Arena).

    I say leave Poe alone and instead reduce damage in Arena 25% across the board (only when in Arena), maybe up to 40%. I strongly feel a simple across the board damage reduction would go miles farther and solve tons more problems. It certainly would immediately resolve entire teams being wiped out in one taunt.

    Edit: I've often pondered how things would be right now in this Tank/UltraDPS meta mentality had Bariss not been nerfed. I'm pretty sure things may have washed out a lot differently and for the better.
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Poe alone is not the problem. So, many highdmg/speed toons is. If a toon is high damage, their health AND their speed should reflect that (aka, low health, slow speed). Right now, it's the opposite. They have high speed AND high damage (and the damage is far too great for the health pools in Arena).

    I say leave Poe alone and instead reduce damage in Arena 25% across the board (only when in Arena), maybe up to 40%. I strongly feel a simple across the board damage reduction would go miles farther and solve tons more problems. It certainly would immediately resolve entire teams being wiped out in one taunt.

    This is bang on. I posted this almost a month ago: https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/5254/the-real-problems-with-the-current-meta-too-many-consecutive-attacks-and-too-much-damage
    At the time not many agreed. Many more do now.
    There is just too much damage, and as you said, the high damage now often comes from the fastest characters, not the slowest ones. It makes absolutely no sense. You are right that neutering Poe won't change this. But Poe just means everyone has to have him.
    In a turn-based game it should not be possible to take the first 5 or 10 turns before the other guy can do anything.
    And the current insane damage obliterates diversity. I mean, I was trying to work towards a counter-attack team. What's the point? My guys can't counterattack after getting hit for 15,000 damage. Even if they survive, it's a drop in the bucket, and the next hit kills them. You can't build counterattack teams, or stun teams, or tank teams, or anything really other than FASTFASTFASTDPSDPSDPS.
    The other day in GW I had my full 5* Barriss almost get knocked out before I could move. She has like 18,000 HP.
    Two whole months for balancing. And nothing.
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • Here's my issue...

    Any turn meter/speed change to Poe will immediately break him and he won't get used at all anymore.

    That means there is no longer a Tank for Arena, Period.

    So, now we go to a meta of all ultra high dps/speed toons and that's that.

    All the people who built more balanced teams around a logical trifecta (tank, healer, dps) are screwed and all the wallet warriors who have every high dps/speed toon can just keep on destroying.

    Until there are other tank options that can work in that role in Arena (and, no, there currently aren't due to their limitations), Poe is needed.

    Maybe stop thinking about it as 'Poe' but as 'tank'. The problem is a) damage in Arena is WAY TOO HIGH and b) all other tanks are garbage in Arena.

    If you want to break Poe, fine. Throw out everyone who leveled and geared Poe's month+ of game resources and time out. But, then what? Nothing changes.

    Poe alone is not the problem. So, many highdmg/speed toons is. If a toon is high damage, their health AND their speed should reflect that (aka, low health, slow speed). Right now, it's the opposite. They have high speed AND high damage (and the damage is far too great for the health pools in Arena).

    I say leave Poe alone and instead reduce damage in Arena 25% across the board (only when in Arena), maybe up to 40%. I strongly feel a simple across the board damage reduction would go miles farther and solve tons more problems. It certainly would immediately resolve entire teams being wiped out in one taunt.

    Brillant post @ThePedroKid

    Exactly what is needed

    Step 1 bring the other tanks in line for arena as a viable option.
    Step 2 reduce damage output by 40% in Arena
  • J7000
    2059 posts Member
    Heisen wrote: »
    J7000 wrote: »
    I don't even care what you guys nerf anymore.. Team Nerf is just gonna push and push until they get what they want. The fact that the devs are nerfing Poe AND have announced they will nerf again still isn't good enough for these clowns. Do what you wish. Buffing is so much more interesting and creative imo. Keep caving to forum rage and well, good luck. Long live Bariss.

    Yes, absolutely! Let's buff everyone until they all have one-shotting AoEs. So interesting, so much fun.

    -a clown

    There you go, buffing Mace makes him one shot everyone. You have great Vision.
  • What is there to monitor? Unless you nerf his stats like his HP or SPEED, he's still going to be a force to be reckoned with.
    Thanks for this post OP since you just confirmed that I should stop farming Poe since eventually you guys will be forced to nerf him again lool
  • Here's my issue...

    Any turn meter/speed change to Poe will immediately break him and he won't get used at all anymore.

    That means there is no longer a Tank for Arena, Period.

    So, now we go to a meta of all ultra high dps/speed toons and that's that.

    All the people who built more balanced teams around a logical trifecta (tank, healer, dps) are screwed and all the wallet warriors who have every high dps/speed toon can just keep on destroying.

    Until there are other tank options that can work in that role in Arena (and, no, there currently aren't due to their limitations), Poe is needed.

    Maybe stop thinking about it as 'Poe' but as 'tank'. The problem is a) damage in Arena is WAY TOO HIGH and b) all other tanks are garbage in Arena.

    If you want to break Poe, fine. Throw out everyone who leveled and geared Poe's month+ of game resources and time out. But, then what? Nothing changes.

    Poe alone is not the problem. So, many highdmg/speed toons is. If a toon is high damage, their health AND their speed should reflect that (aka, low health, slow speed). Right now, it's the opposite. They have high speed AND high damage (and the damage is far too great for the health pools in Arena).

    I say leave Poe alone and instead reduce damage in Arena 25% across the board (only when in Arena), maybe up to 40%. I strongly feel a simple across the board damage reduction would go miles farther and solve tons more problems. It certainly would immediately resolve entire teams being wiped out in one taunt.

    Edit: I've often pondered how things would be right now in this Tank/UltraDPS meta mentality had Bariss not been nerfed. I'm pretty sure things may have washed out a lot differently and for the better.

    THIS
    ☮ Consular ☮
  • Guys seriously Poe isn't the problem. It is the damage output of a handful of toons. If you use Poe with the DPS characters that do 'normal' amounts of damage the battles are actually pretty fun and rewarding. It even allows for healers to actually you know.. have someone to heal and be useful.
    Star Wars: Galaxy of Supporting Cast Members
  • If they reduce damage they have to reduce healing. Otherwise it's easy to see what to do... Run five healers. Damage would not be able to be dealt fast enough for anyone to die.
  • EA_Jesse wrote: »
    Greetings heroes,

    We wanted to take a few moments to talk to you about a very hot topic here on the forums, Poe Dameron.

    There have been numerous posts about this character and how our recent changes aren’t enough and that he will still be “OP”. We are reading each and every one of your posts, so know that you are being heard.

    As you saw in the update notes, we are making some balance changes to Poe Dameron as a first step. We will continue to monitor how Poe performs in squads after the update, and if needed we will make additional changes. We’re taking an approach of slowly adjusting characters if we feel they are too powerful instead of making changes that may be too drastic.

    Well played sir.
    548-145-651 | Playing since Dec 28th (:
  • Don't you have testers and a server to test this on yourself? Why do we have to be the lab rats for this game. Surely your game testers can test a possible nerf of Poe and see how it affects the game, whether that be too much or not enough.
    My name is cosmicturtle333, aka CT-333, aka Threes.
  • Aluxendr
    358 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Here's my issue...

    Any turn meter/speed change to Poe will immediately break him and he won't get used at all anymore.

    That means there is no longer a Tank for Arena, Period.

    So, now we go to a meta of all ultra high dps/speed toons and that's that.

    All the people who built more balanced teams around a logical trifecta (tank, healer, dps) are screwed and all the wallet warriors who have every high dps/speed toon can just keep on destroying.

    Until there are other tank options that can work in that role in Arena (and, no, there currently aren't due to their limitations), Poe is needed.

    Maybe stop thinking about it as 'Poe' but as 'tank'. The problem is a) damage in Arena is WAY TOO HIGH and b) all other tanks are garbage in Arena.

    If you want to break Poe, fine. Throw out everyone who leveled and geared Poe's month+ of game resources and time out. But, then what? Nothing changes.

    Poe alone is not the problem. So, many highdmg/speed toons is. If a toon is high damage, their health AND their speed should reflect that (aka, low health, slow speed). Right now, it's the opposite. They have high speed AND high damage (and the damage is far too great for the health pools in Arena).

    I say leave Poe alone and instead reduce damage in Arena 25% across the board (only when in Arena), maybe up to 40%. I strongly feel a simple across the board damage reduction would go miles farther and solve tons more problems. It certainly would immediately resolve entire teams being wiped out in one taunt.

    Edit: I've often pondered how things would be right now in this Tank/UltraDPS meta mentality had Bariss not been nerfed. I'm pretty sure things may have washed out a lot differently and for the better.

    This would also solve the problem, but the 25% TM reduction should STILL be removed, since it's a massive RNG advantage to one team or the other.

    If the TM reduction gets removed, I'll still use Poe. If they hit his Tenacity and ability to take a few hits too hard, and THEN remove TM reduction without granting him more defense, I won't, because he will instantly have the Taunt removed (like Chewie) and be a weak link.

    So essentially, what I (and probably @Qeltar ) are saying is PRUNE CAREFULLY. There is literally one, and only one, part of his toolkit making Arena into and RNG playground where nothing matter but "who Taunts first", and it's that ability.

    Edit:

    I also disagree with 40% across the board. The difference in power between super-hard-hitters (Rey, FOTP, etc) and weak characters is too ridiculous. There needs to be some toning down overall, but can you imagine Bariss, or a similarly weak character, doing 40% less damage?
  • Don't you have testers and a server to test this on yourself? Why do we have to be the lab rats for this game. Surely your game testers can test a possible nerf of Poe and see how it affects the game, whether that be too much or not enough.

    If you blokes can test a Solo team vs a Poe team and it should show you.
  • Don't you have testers and a server to test this on yourself? Why do we have to be the lab rats for this game. Surely your game testers can test a possible nerf of Poe and see how it affects the game, whether that be too much or not enough.

    They did and everyone complained too much before even seeing a result.
  • Preemo_Magin
    1826 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Qeltar wrote: »
    [This is not like the Barriss nerf but lighter. This would be like Barriss being considered too good of a healer, so you reduce the proc rate of Swift Recovery.

    That would have been proper as Barris - by all stats, evidence and consensus is a char that does not belong in Arena PVP at any high rank.

    Contrary to this, Sid leads 22 of my Arena top 50, with (my own numbers until we can see compositions) another 15 people there using him with a Phasma lead. That's 37 out of 50. Barris is in 0 of these teams.

    What gives you the entitlement to openly question Cg in bold letter every single chance you have and loudly and incesantly about this?

    It affects me, and affects everyone that has Poe even if they don't use it, or say they can counter It. And also thise that already stated they don't have it and have no problem with Poe.

    Again,

    1) Sid is in maybe 70% of teams in TOP 50 Arena.
    2) They just nerfed a character they sold as part of a $100 bundle, and where those that missed it may have used $100 or much more to acquire Poe faster
    3) We have evidence thus that being frequently used is not a reason for nerf (Sid).
    4) We know CG wants to avoid having a char like Barris, from being usable (and she was in no way OP) to being not used by anyone.
    5) they want to take time to monitor things

    I applaud the developers for not giving in and taking their time. And I would love them to do what they think is RIGHT not what they think the most vocal Forum-Warriors want.

    I rhink the Barris nerf was partnof a learning process. I don't think they wanted a char that nobody that competes in Arena will never use. They cannot know in advance what will happen. And want to be FAIR and GOOD LiSTENERs more than they want to decide which side of their player base to unjustly affect. What is right should take precedence.

  • A good game when multiple characters is all about balance. Characters have weaknesses and strengths. When someone comes along like Poe who's strengths far outweigh his weaknesses then it does 'break' the game somewhat. Tanks traditionally are slow for a very good reason. I have no idea why you decided that Poe as a tank should be one of the quickest toons in the game but you've seen why no other game really does a super fast tank character. It's all strength and little weakness.

    Take a game like Team Fortress 2, probably the most balanced multiplayer game ever. 9 characters, each distinct, each has very obvious strengths and weaknesses. There is no one character that everyone picks because there's a good counter to every character. Now I'm not expecting every single character to have their own individuality, there's too many toons for that, but each role (tank, attacker, healer etc) should follow the same template and then each character have their own flavour put on top to make them standout from one another. Like I said, there's a reason other games don't make class based games with a super quick tank in them.

    Hopefully the data will show this in the next few weeks when people avoid Poe teams like crazy in arena. Well, no hoping about it, it will show that.

    If/when a Poe rebalancing does come into effect though, hopefully it's part of a wider range of balances to also make slower characters more viable to use. As has been said by a few people now, there's no incentive to diversify your squad right now, instead having the same core squad as everyone else with a couple of other interchangeable toons.

    Great to see you're not kgnoring the issue though. I have no interest in using Poe in my squad, so happy to provide stats of my team falling down the ranks
  • MenaceTEC wrote: »
    If they reduce damage they have to reduce healing. Otherwise it's easy to see what to do... Run five healers. Damage would not be able to be dealt fast enough for anyone to die.

    Oh, I'm pretty sure you can still kill a dude in under 3-4 turns. Pretty sure a 25-40% reduction would only turn a 1 shot kill into a 2 shot kill.

    Even if they did reduce healing also... So what? The net affect would be the same. The battle would last longer allowing for player decisions to have more impact. That's the goal right? Or, is the real goal here so wallet warriors can have it easy holding top arena spots because they are the only ones with all these ultra high dps toons?

    The net affect is simply making the health pool greater in relation to damage (and, if you are correct, healing also). Which makes total sense in terms of Arena.

    Maybe an across the board health increase of 25-40% would be better? Definitely sounds better for PR optics (even if it's the same net affect).
  • J7000 wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    J7000 wrote: »
    I don't even care what you guys nerf anymore.. Team Nerf is just gonna push and push until they get what they want. The fact that the devs are nerfing Poe AND have announced they will nerf again still isn't good enough for these clowns. Do what you wish. Buffing is so much more interesting and creative imo. Keep caving to forum rage and well, good luck. Long live Bariss.

    Yes, absolutely! Let's buff everyone until they all have one-shotting AoEs. So interesting, so much fun.

    -a clown

    There you go, buffing Mace makes him one shot everyone. You have great Vision.

    Clearly you missed the point. Nerfs are sometimes necessary. If all you do is buff you can end up with a never-ending power creep cycle that can lead to ridiculous game mechanics.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Here's my issue...

    Any turn meter/speed change to Poe will immediately break him and he won't get used at all anymore.

    That means there is no longer a Tank for Arena, Period.
    Poe can fulfill the traditional role of a tank if he keeps his 143 speed and his taunt, but lose the turn meter manipulation.


    I can agree that damage need to be toned down. That's ok. But, regardless of that, "I-push-a-button-and-do-five-actions-in-a-row-before-you-even-act" is not, and will never be, a balanced ability in a turn-based game. Regardless of damage, hp, and meta. Once the cap is raised to 80, First Order Officer will have the same power (but 70% chance I think) at 143 speed as well, and he will be just as problematic, even without a taunt+expose. And I predict a good bunch of nerf cries for him too.

    Poe is a living Time Walk. That's a problem.
  • reizse
    1447 posts Member
    TBH with you guys...if you make poe unusable (whether by removing his TM reduction or lowering his speed), you will quickly see the real problem behind him...it's been said a thousand times. speed + dmg in disproportionate quantities in comparison to health and defense. poe is just the icing. i've said it before, i don't care if poe gets nerfed or not. he's not part of my arena line up (lvl 27, gear 2 used in the INT challenge only). i may be a masochist when i say this..but i kind of enjoy fighting poe teams even if the chance to lose is really high.

    whatever.
    mighty chlorians
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    Triqui wrote: »
    Poe is a living Time Walk.
    Well played, sir. That's the issue in 6 words.
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • my two cents is if you **** about something trying to get what you want, you should automatically not get what you want. i don't care what it is, this world is too full of complainers that get what they want bc they make the most noise. dont nerf anyone! just play
This discussion has been closed.