Poe Dameron balancing

Replies

  • M9silent wrote: »
    *Disclaimer* I don't care about Poe or his nerf.

    What people who are anti Poe are saying, is that it's his TURN METER REDUCTION that is causing all the problems. It's not resistable and allows the Poe team to go all 5 heroes before the non Poe team.

    As they have said, keep his speed and 2 turn taunt. A tank should go fast and soak damage. Keep his expose chance. It's what makes him unique. But remove his turn meter manipulation. That's the OP part. Mixed with the high damage that some heroes can output, heroes can be taken out before even moving. 1 hero has 1 ability that decides the outcome of the battle in turn 1. That's too much.

    I don't see what's so hard to understand.

    ^^^^^^ +10000 this.

    At least make it so there is a PERCENTAGE CHANCE of turn reduction, not guaranteed. That way teams facing Poe feel there is a better balance.
    Darth Saltious - Hoth Ski Patrol
  • Jeez, there are so many toons that could get tweaked. What about GS? He is on every top tier team and he is a nobody in SW lore, but you don't hear the howling b/c people have owned and invested in him since the start. Another hero comes along and bam...crying. Just saying, I've been getting slaughtered for months by the same teams Sid, GS, Poggle, (insert AoE guy). No complaining from them and their gravy train toons. C'mon people there will be stronger toons come along and everybody that's invested in Poe will start whinnying.
  • These few people posting over and over and over are starting to completely destroy the whole forum with their QQ spam.
    GIVE US A BREAK, PLEASE. [/quote]

    I agree, we know there is an update on its way that some of you are heartfelt upset about. Might as well write it in blood.

    Constructive criticism I'm sure is the only part anyone wants to read, not how your life has come to a stand still. And for those of you that are responding directly to the people that are acting in this manner, you are definitely not helping the issue either.
  • Calus_78 wrote: »
    These few people posting over and over and over are starting to completely destroy the whole forum with their QQ spam.
    GIVE US A BREAK, PLEASE.

    I agree, we know there is an update on its way that some of you are heartfelt upset about. Might as well write it in blood.

    Constructive criticism I'm sure is the only part anyone wants to read, not how your life has come to a stand still. And for those of you that are responding directly to the people that are acting in this manner, you are definitely not helping the issue either.
    [/quote]

    *golf clap*

    The adjustments made to Leia, FOTP, and Poe are examples of balancing and fixing moving in the right direction.

    The nerf to Barriss is an example of overreaction. The last thing I'm hoping to see is another nerfslam like that one come down on any character.

    The slow and steady approach the dev's are taking at the moment towards game balance is the right way to do things, in my opinion.
  • fungushnitzel
    196 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Calus_78 wrote: »
    These few people posting over and over and over are starting to completely destroy the whole forum with their QQ spam.
    GIVE US A BREAK, PLEASE.

    I agree, we know there is an update on its way that some of you are heartfelt upset about. Might as well write it in blood.

    Constructive criticism I'm sure is the only part anyone wants to read, not how your life has come to a stand still. And for those of you that are responding directly to the people that are acting in this manner, you are definitely not helping the issue either.

    *golf clap*

    The adjustments made to Leia, FOTP, and Poe are examples of balancing and fixing moving in the right direction.

    The nerf to Barriss is an example of overreaction. The last thing I'm hoping to see is another nerfslam like that one come down on any character.

    The slow and steady approach the dev's are taking at the moment towards game balance is the right way to do things, in my opinion.

  • Qeltar wrote: »

    JSA, these guys are supposed to be the "experts", right? It's their game? They have access to "tons of data" and so forth? You and I and others all knew this would happen even before it did: Poe was bad enough before the level cap was raised. People BEGGED them to adjust his speed down so he didn't become tier 1 at level 61, and they completely ignored us. They created this mess, all for want of a single digit decrement.
    For as much as Barriss was an over-nerf, this is a pendulum swing too far the other way. The change made doesn't address the issue with him at all. And then announcing the next day that they are still considering further changes, just leaves everyone in limbo. By the time they get around to a proper fix, 90% of active players will have leveled and starred the guy up, and the reaction will be even worse.
    Reducing outrage requires speedy and decisive action. Poe should have been properly fixed 6 weeks ago, not 6 weeks from now.
    Old saying: "The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is today." Same here.

    My hunch is that they are using "too much" of their own data and not as much common sense to address the issue. Since it takes a high-leveled Poe with at least gear 8 to receive his significant benefit, you will only see the issue if you look at data from the top few percent on a server who have leveled him up-- you are going to get very different data depending on how you slice it.

    That said, I think you're being unfair to the devs, and making the issue sound bigger than it is, since it really affects a small percentage of folks. These folks happen to be the loudest on the forums as well-- since they/we have so much invested in it. You make some great points but sometimes are difficult to take seriously because of all of the hyperbole about "90%" of the players, etc. I don't disagree with your premise though- turn meter reduction should imo be tweaked down slightly but not removed. And love the quote about the tree. Cheers.


  • The slow and steady approach the dev's are taking at the moment towards game balance is the right way to do things, in my opinion.

    I agree with this.

    I realize there are a great many people who still think Poe is overpowered, even with the upcoming tweaks to bring him more into balance. I also realize that there are some big $$$ spenders that like to point out that they have paid a lot to crank Poe up to his dominance in Arena. Neither side is 100% in the right.

    On the one hand, people who have spent a lot of money on Poe, realizing his strengths, shouldn't be "punished" by having him nerfed to the point where is no longer powerful. If powerful characters are nerfed all the time, what reason would P2P players pay? To invest in characters who are constantly being weakened due to complaint? On the other, just because people spent money, doesn't mean they should be appeased at every turn - especially if doing so would create a negative gaming experience due to imbalances that might be created or exit. Incidentally, I do NOT think it is all the P2P & P2W players that don't want Poe nerfed.

    Those opposed to Poe in his current (or soon-to-be) state also shouldn't flood the forums with complaints. And I also don't think that all those asking for Poe to be adjusted even more (i.e. have the turn meter aspect of his abilities modified) are all F2P players. There is a legitimate frustration over Arena teams turning into Poe-centric coin flips - not all, but many (if not most) - especially in the highest levels. No one wants to play a game where there is only one way to win - or one clearly more favored way to win. That's not a game - that's simply a "buy your way to the top" app.

    I think CG/EA learned their lesson from the Barris debacle - and are simply trying to walk the line between game balance and fairness to those who have invested (be it time, money or both) in Poe. I realize that many are saying "but they didn't fix what is ACTUALLY wrong with Poe" - perhaps not. We'll see how it shakes out. I think there are clearly over-reactions on both sides, none of which are helpful nor paint an accurate portrayal of the situation.

    I think those that think Poe is overpowered, can take solace in the fact that the devs saw that to at least some degree by reducing some of his abilities - and are "keeping an eye on things". I think those that don't want Poe made any weaker can be happy with the fact that he hasn't been significantly nerfed and that CG/EA have clearly learned from what happened with Barriss.

    Everyone take a breath, enjoy all the good things about the game and try to at lease see things from the broader perspective of everyone who is playing the game. And the fact that Arena is just one aspect of a really great game.



    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »

    The slow and steady approach the dev's are taking at the moment towards game balance is the right way to do things, in my opinion.

    I agree with this.

    I realize there are a great many people who still think Poe is overpowered, even with the upcoming tweaks to bring him more into balance. I also realize that there are some big $$$ spenders that like to point out that they have paid a lot to crank Poe up to his dominance in Arena. Neither side is 100% in the right.

    On the one hand, people who have spent a lot of money on Poe, realizing his strengths, shouldn't be "punished" by having him nerfed to the point where is no longer powerful. If powerful characters are nerfed all the time, what reason would P2P players pay? To invest in characters who are constantly being weakened due to complaint? On the other, just because people spent money, doesn't mean they should be appeased at every turn - especially if doing so would create a negative gaming experience due to imbalances that might be created or exit. Incidentally, I do NOT think it is all the P2P & P2W players that don't want Poe nerfed.

    Those opposed to Poe in his current (or soon-to-be) state also shouldn't flood the forums with complaints. And I also don't think that all those asking for Poe to be adjusted even more (i.e. have the turn meter aspect of his abilities modified) are all F2P players. There is a legitimate frustration over Arena teams turning into Poe-centric coin flips - not all, but many (if not most) - especially in the highest levels. No one wants to play a game where there is only one way to win - or one clearly more favored way to win. That's not a game - that's simply a "buy your way to the top" app.

    I think CG/EA learned their lesson from the Barris debacle - and are simply trying to walk the line between game balance and fairness to those who have invested (be it time, money or both) in Poe. I realize that many are saying "but they didn't fix what is ACTUALLY wrong with Poe" - perhaps not. We'll see how it shakes out. I think there are clearly over-reactions on both sides, none of which are helpful nor paint an accurate portrayal of the situation.

    I think those that think Poe is overpowered, can take solace in the fact that the devs saw that to at least some degree by reducing some of his abilities - and are "keeping an eye on things". I think those that don't want Poe made any weaker can be happy with the fact that he hasn't been significantly nerfed and that CG/EA have clearly learned from what happened with Barriss.

    Everyone take a breath, enjoy all the good things about the game and try to at lease see things from the broader perspective of everyone who is playing the game. And the fact that Arena is just one aspect of a really great game.



    well said! one benefit of poe for f2p that wasn't mentioned: As a f2p myself, I got lucky with Poe in a bronzium and have farmed him up to 5* gear 8. Having poe with the droid team synergy has allowed me to "snipe" up into higher ranks earlier on than I could if there wasn't a character that served his function. Yes I get knocked back 20-30 places on a given day/depending on how busy arena is but I get to catch some extra crystals and shipments that help me gear up more. Full speed and turn meter nerf would cut out several team designs out and all of my resources that I spent on him would be worthless, including the team. Even though I got a lucky pull, i still put significant time and resources into gearing him up and I would be severely affected at this point if his speed/turn meter reduction was gone. In my honest opinion, I could see them taking away the turn meter reduction aspect completely, but to take away his speed makes him a slow tank that might or might not have a possibility of meat shielding my glass cannons/his tanking ability in general.
  • Keaven
    1099 posts Member
    Keaven wrote: »
    The issue of incremental change is a good approach, however CG is starting in the wrong place with Poe.

    As previously mentioned, the problem with Poe has nothing to do with his exposing opponents, this merely adds insult to injury.

    I believe Poes speed and taunt ability are good for the game to allow glass heroes, such as Maul, or IG 88 to now play a part in the end-game meta.

    The deeper issue at hand is the focus towards high DPS, due to the damage output of several heroes (one of which is being properly nerfed FOTP). The fact that there are heroes that can effectively 1 shot (with or wothout buffs), steers the end-game meta towards quick (coin toss) matches that are won and lost by stacking damage output and hoping for the better RNG.

    Further to that, both players start with 5 heroes. Being able to kill in one shot means all focus becomes based on the result of your first turn and how many opponents you can kill to gain an advatage, for eg making it 5 vs 4 after the first hero action can win you a match by default, and actions like healing or resurrecting become a waste of a hero turn, and redundant.

    Contrary to that is a defense or stall meta whereby insufficient damage can be achieved in 5 minutes to win matches, as shown by effectiveness of the original Barriss when added to the early game meta. As she was, her ability to stall matches would still have been overshadowed by the current end game DPS meta over time as people were able to access, and subsequently upgrade abilities of the current (or even original) pool of heroes.

    Due to this overall imbalance of offense vs defense, it is the turn meter reduction of Poe (being a top tier speed hero) that now grants even more advantage to a high DPS squad, such that a 5th DPS is better off being sacrificed in order to have 4 heroes effectively hit faster instead.

    Whilst I believe overall movement should be made to reducing damage output, in the short term, Poes ability to reduce turn meter guaranteed to all enemy so early in the match (and given the AI will also do this granting an effective offensive strategy while defending), is what makes Poe the only hero I always recommend anyone to farm over all else, even if only to defend against enemy Poes once they start to appear in their arena.

    Here is where change should start, not end, as by the time his turn burn is touched he may become completely obsolete and the end result will be no different to the Barriss changes (which I still believe could be completely reverted).

    The fact that he is such a slow to develope hero, due to the fact Cantina shipment heroes are the slowest to farm (which you can see easily in my hero farming guide here on the forums), is why this situation will get worse over time as long as this is not changed.

    For the record, I play two accounts, and although I planned on playing them differently to test a wider array of heroes, had I not also focused on Poe and DPS on my alt account, I would have risked not being able to maintain the economy high arena ranking allows, and so both accounts use DPS arena squads with Poe to enable ranking 1 daily in the arena.

    There is also already a wealth of experience about endgame meta amongst player groups of hardocre players without limits of resources combined with the f2p experience, such as FTB and iNstinct, that have a deeper understanding of the end game meta than the average forumite. Whilst every opinion is important, these groups combined have a highly practical experience to back up their opinions across varied arena leaderboards.

    This seems to be a relatively untapped resource for CG, of which all could benefit from a more direct and open dialogue.
    In addition, this is in turn moving GW slowly but inevitability towards the impossible as we face more and more suicide squads with a limited roster as more and more players realise they can't surive in their arena without DPS focused squads.

    The best solution I can think of is to rework defense, or defense buffs to prevent damage on a percentage value rather than a raw number, as this will be a more simpler way to balance offense vs defense.
    Profile: Keaven
    Guild: Fear The Boot
  • Keaven wrote: »
    The best solution I can think of is to rework defense, or defense buffs to prevent damage on a percentage value rather than a raw number, as this will be a more simpler way to balance offense vs defense..

    +1 to making defensive tanks/defensive buffs a viable strategy, as right now it is not. Most games always have what I call in the RPG world as a "Wall". A team of walls is a long fight but they slowly but surely absorb all burst damage and then take down the enemy team. Would be cool to see on here.
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    Zeeb05 wrote: »
    It's true though, Ol' Ben. If you ever run into the guy on the forums, he Just. Doesn't. Stop. Whining. It's not a hostile claim, it's a true one.

    I'm sorry, what was that? You want me to post in this thread more? Okay.
    @Keaven - Great post. Welcome to the ranks of the "whiners" (a.k.a. "people capable of analysis and rational arguments").
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • Zeeb05 wrote: »
    obiwan1011 wrote: »
    If we can see that there is a group of complainers constantly overrunning every thread and starting tons of their own, whining about every single change, however small, and that those people are always the same cast of characters, certainly the CG team can too.

    I wish they'd make a dedicated place for them all to post. They can call it Qeltars Cosmic ****.

    How nice of you to call out someone and make personal attacks. Very mature.

    It's true though, Ol' Ben. If you ever run into the guy on the forums, he Just. Doesn't. Stop. Whining. It's not a hostile claim, it's a true one.

    Perhaps we can keep the conversation to balancing Poe, and not forum members. It think there have been far too few posts with content related to the topic at hand and far too many that have simply been personal attacks, thinly veiled as "constructive criticism".
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • EA_Jesse wrote: »
    There have been numerous posts about this character and how our recent changes aren’t enough and that he will still be “OP”. We are reading each and every one of your posts, so know that you are being heard.

    When you say every post, do you mean every post? Or every post in the update thread?
  • Puglio wrote: »
    EA_Jesse wrote: »
    There have been numerous posts about this character and how our recent changes aren’t enough and that he will still be “OP”. We are reading each and every one of your posts, so know that you are being heard.

    When you say every post, do you mean every post? Or every post in the update thread?

    it's been said a few times now, can we talk actual data/team comparison in regards to this? i know the internet was made for trollers and flamers to get a laugh but seriously, a topic this hot isn't worth trolling over and over. (or maybe it is if you're a serious troll, LOL)
  • Triqui wrote: »
    reizse wrote: »
    TBH with you guys...if you make poe unusable (whether by removing his TM reduction or lowering his speed), you will quickly see the real problem behind him...it's been said a thousand times. speed + dmg in disproportionate quantities in comparison to health and defense. poe is just the icing. i've said it before, i don't care if poe gets nerfed or not. he's not part of my arena line up (lvl 27, gear 2 used in the INT challenge only). i may be a masochist when i say this..but i kind of enjoy fighting poe teams even if the chance to lose is really high.

    whatever.
    poe was usable, and used, before he was turn 7, with the lvl 60 cap. He was just less dominant because there was people who acted consistently before him.

    Poe at 142 speed will be useful, and used. Maybe not omnipresent as he is now, but Han is not omnipresent either, and he is not useless.

    Poe at 143 speed, but without turn meter steal, will be useful as a early taunter that protect squishier targets. He just will not be able to warp time and space and make his whole team act before the enemy blinks.

    I'm farmng Poe right now. I have no problems to join the meta and play like everybody else. He is easy to farm, that's not an issue. But his ability is problematic. FOO will be problematic in the future. Time manipulation so early in the game is not a good design. It leads to all kind of broken possibilities and it opens the door to turn 1 winning combos. And turn 1 winning combos are a bad thing.

    Turn 1 winning combos are ensures by having ALL turn 7 chars. The problem is that assining Poe to turn 8 just invalidates him as a tank to protect. The only reason turn 8 chars are usefull today is because Poe has 1 chance in 5 (for a full turn 7 team which dominated/will dominate arena) or 20% to make turn 8 glass tanks useful.

    If Poe goes to turn 8, see if you can agree, then the meta will shift to have 5 turn 7 chars like Dooku, Sid, Daka, Rey, GS, QGJ...well, that's exactly what you see at high Arena ranks.

    The ONLY reason some people bring other chars like Droids for example, is because they have a chance to sometimes win. If you delete Poe turn 7, it's all turn 7 wars.

    The biggest offenders are Rey and GS (and FOTP but we'll see with the fix), maybe QGJ but he is turn 8 at least. Dooku is fast and annoying but doesn't one shot anybody, maybe on the strong side but fairly balanced IMO. Same with Sid.

    If Rey and GS are toned down alongside Poe's turn meter manipulation, a tankier team with some healing will have a good chance at surviving and eventually whittle down a 5 dps team.
  • Heisen wrote: »
    Triqui wrote: »
    reizse wrote: »
    TBH with you guys...if you make poe unusable (whether by removing his TM reduction or lowering his speed), you will quickly see the real problem behind him...it's been said a thousand times. speed + dmg in disproportionate quantities in comparison to health and defense. poe is just the icing. i've said it before, i don't care if poe gets nerfed or not. he's not part of my arena line up (lvl 27, gear 2 used in the INT challenge only). i may be a masochist when i say this..but i kind of enjoy fighting poe teams even if the chance to lose is really high.

    whatever.
    poe was usable, and used, before he was turn 7, with the lvl 60 cap. He was just less dominant because there was people who acted consistently before him.

    Poe at 142 speed will be useful, and used. Maybe not omnipresent as he is now, but Han is not omnipresent either, and he is not useless.

    Poe at 143 speed, but without turn meter steal, will be useful as a early taunter that protect squishier targets. He just will not be able to warp time and space and make his whole team act before the enemy blinks.

    I'm farmng Poe right now. I have no problems to join the meta and play like everybody else. He is easy to farm, that's not an issue. But his ability is problematic. FOO will be problematic in the future. Time manipulation so early in the game is not a good design. It leads to all kind of broken possibilities and it opens the door to turn 1 winning combos. And turn 1 winning combos are a bad thing.

    Turn 1 winning combos are ensures by having ALL turn 7 chars. The problem is that assining Poe to turn 8 just invalidates him as a tank to protect. The only reason turn 8 chars are usefull today is because Poe has 1 chance in 5 (for a full turn 7 team which dominated/will dominate arena) or 20% to make turn 8 glass tanks useful.

    If Poe goes to turn 8, see if you can agree, then the meta will shift to have 5 turn 7 chars like Dooku, Sid, Daka, Rey, GS, QGJ...well, that's exactly what you see at high Arena ranks.

    The ONLY reason some people bring other chars like Droids for example, is because they have a chance to sometimes win. If you delete Poe turn 7, it's all turn 7 wars.

    The biggest offenders are Rey and GS (and FOTP but we'll see with the fix), maybe QGJ but he is turn 8 at least. Dooku is fast and annoying but doesn't one shot anybody, maybe on the strong side but fairly balanced IMO. Same with Sid.

    If Rey and GS are toned down alongside Poe's turn meter manipulation, a tankier team with some healing will have a good chance at surviving and eventually whittle down a 5 dps team.

    I say just TURN UP the tanks!

  • LaLiam
    1589 posts Member
    As a Poe user, its taken me since he was released to get him to 5*, I use him in conjunction with Luke who i have also used to large amount of resouces (in place of the otherwise more useful GS),
    The amount of weeks gone into this guy is the sacrifice,
    Solution:
    - remove him from Chromium packs, make it difficult to P2P to manipulate him to 7*
    - or, making his turn meter reduction random to say 2-3.

    It's worth noting if he does get nerfed to the point he no longer synergises as well as he currently does around my hard farmed characters, i would expect compensation.
    {RotE}
  • Aluxendr wrote: »
    Edit:

    I also disagree with 40% across the board. The difference in power between super-hard-hitters (Rey, FOTP, etc) and weak characters is too ridiculous. There needs to be some toning down overall, but can you imagine Bariss, or a similarly weak character, doing 40% less damage?
    But can you imagine a super high HP, super high heal character like Bariss suddenly doing 40% MORE damage (relatively)?
    Proud and Belgian officer of [DTA] BIER DTA | official Lando Calrissian fanboy KappaPride
  • goobstoob wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Triqui wrote: »
    reizse wrote: »
    TBH with you guys...if you make poe unusable (whether by removing his TM reduction or lowering his speed), you will quickly see the real problem behind him...it's been said a thousand times. speed + dmg in disproportionate quantities in comparison to health and defense. poe is just the icing. i've said it before, i don't care if poe gets nerfed or not. he's not part of my arena line up (lvl 27, gear 2 used in the INT challenge only). i may be a masochist when i say this..but i kind of enjoy fighting poe teams even if the chance to lose is really high.

    whatever.
    poe was usable, and used, before he was turn 7, with the lvl 60 cap. He was just less dominant because there was people who acted consistently before him.

    Poe at 142 speed will be useful, and used. Maybe not omnipresent as he is now, but Han is not omnipresent either, and he is not useless.

    Poe at 143 speed, but without turn meter steal, will be useful as a early taunter that protect squishier targets. He just will not be able to warp time and space and make his whole team act before the enemy blinks.

    I'm farmng Poe right now. I have no problems to join the meta and play like everybody else. He is easy to farm, that's not an issue. But his ability is problematic. FOO will be problematic in the future. Time manipulation so early in the game is not a good design. It leads to all kind of broken possibilities and it opens the door to turn 1 winning combos. And turn 1 winning combos are a bad thing.

    Turn 1 winning combos are ensures by having ALL turn 7 chars. The problem is that assining Poe to turn 8 just invalidates him as a tank to protect. The only reason turn 8 chars are usefull today is because Poe has 1 chance in 5 (for a full turn 7 team which dominated/will dominate arena) or 20% to make turn 8 glass tanks useful.

    If Poe goes to turn 8, see if you can agree, then the meta will shift to have 5 turn 7 chars like Dooku, Sid, Daka, Rey, GS, QGJ...well, that's exactly what you see at high Arena ranks.

    The ONLY reason some people bring other chars like Droids for example, is because they have a chance to sometimes win. If you delete Poe turn 7, it's all turn 7 wars.

    The biggest offenders are Rey and GS (and FOTP but we'll see with the fix), maybe QGJ but he is turn 8 at least. Dooku is fast and annoying but doesn't one shot anybody, maybe on the strong side but fairly balanced IMO. Same with Sid.

    If Rey and GS are toned down alongside Poe's turn meter manipulation, a tankier team with some healing will have a good chance at surviving and eventually whittle down a 5 dps team.

    I say just TURN UP the tanks!

    And give them more health. It's hilarious a "tank" such as Han have 11K health.
  • Lokai wrote: »
    Triqui wrote: »
    Lokai wrote: »
    why do people keep stating **** **** as facts? Guess what on my server I, Veqlargh, score rather well in arena most days if i'm able to be on to do the sniper war thing around 6pm. Twice in the last 5 days I took 1st place and am typically top 5. And guess who I use as my team lead in EVERY SINGLE arena match? Barriss.....

    You are not alone in the top with Barris.

    294gehe.png



    we are a rare breed though. I see hardly any other barriss as leaders :(
    Aluxendr wrote: »
    Edit:

    I also disagree with 40% across the board. The difference in power between super-hard-hitters (Rey, FOTP, etc) and weak characters is too ridiculous. There needs to be some toning down overall, but can you imagine Bariss, or a similarly weak character, doing 40% less damage?
    But can you imagine a super high HP, super high heal character like Bariss suddenly doing 40% MORE damage (relatively)?

    I can imagine hiw happy I would be tobface those teams all the time vs a huge turn 7-8 nightmare team with 2 synergized glass canons being called on assist on first move. I could't care less for any single target Dmg lower than 3.5k...

  • Why does every game forum I go on (and been on a hell of a lot), lead to some really really toxic and hurtful posts. What's wrong with you all?
  • Oootini wrote: »
    Why does every game forum I go on (and been on a hell of a lot), lead to some really really toxic and hurtful posts. What's wrong with you all?

    Why do you have to imply something is wrong with us all? That hurts. :(

  • Keaven wrote: »
    Keaven wrote: »
    The issue of incremental change is a good approach, however CG is starting in the wrong place with Poe.

    As previously mentioned, the problem with Poe has nothing to do with his exposing opponents, this merely adds insult to injury.

    I believe Poes speed and taunt ability are good for the game to allow glass heroes, such as Maul, or IG 88 to now play a part in the end-game meta.

    The deeper issue at hand is the focus towards high DPS, due to the damage output of several heroes (one of which is being properly nerfed FOTP). The fact that there are heroes that can effectively 1 shot (with or wothout buffs), steers the end-game meta towards quick (coin toss) matches that are won and lost by stacking damage output and hoping for the better RNG.

    Further to that, both players start with 5 heroes. Being able to kill in one shot means all focus becomes based on the result of your first turn and how many opponents you can kill to gain an advatage, for eg making it 5 vs 4 after the first hero action can win you a match by default, and actions like healing or resurrecting become a waste of a hero turn, and redundant.

    Contrary to that is a defense or stall meta whereby insufficient damage can be achieved in 5 minutes to win matches, as shown by effectiveness of the original Barriss when added to the early game meta. As she was, her ability to stall matches would still have been overshadowed by the current end game DPS meta over time as people were able to access, and subsequently upgrade abilities of the current (or even original) pool of heroes.

    Due to this overall imbalance of offense vs defense, it is the turn meter reduction of Poe (being a top tier speed hero) that now grants even more advantage to a high DPS squad, such that a 5th DPS is better off being sacrificed in order to have 4 heroes effectively hit faster instead.

    Whilst I believe overall movement should be made to reducing damage output, in the short term, Poes ability to reduce turn meter guaranteed to all enemy so early in the match (and given the AI will also do this granting an effective offensive strategy while defending), is what makes Poe the only hero I always recommend anyone to farm over all else, even if only to defend against enemy Poes once they start to appear in their arena.

    Here is where change should start, not end, as by the time his turn burn is touched he may become completely obsolete and the end result will be no different to the Barriss changes (which I still believe could be completely reverted).

    The fact that he is such a slow to develope hero, due to the fact Cantina shipment heroes are the slowest to farm (which you can see easily in my hero farming guide here on the forums), is why this situation will get worse over time as long as this is not changed.

    For the record, I play two accounts, and although I planned on playing them differently to test a wider array of heroes, had I not also focused on Poe and DPS on my alt account, I would have risked not being able to maintain the economy high arena ranking allows, and so both accounts use DPS arena squads with Poe to enable ranking 1 daily in the arena.

    There is also already a wealth of experience about endgame meta amongst player groups of hardocre players without limits of resources combined with the f2p experience, such as FTB and iNstinct, that have a deeper understanding of the end game meta than the average forumite. Whilst every opinion is important, these groups combined have a highly practical experience to back up their opinions across varied arena leaderboards.

    This seems to be a relatively untapped resource for CG, of which all could benefit from a more direct and open dialogue.
    In addition, this is in turn moving GW slowly but inevitability towards the impossible as we face more and more suicide squads with a limited roster as more and more players realise they can't surive in their arena without DPS focused squads.

    The best solution I can think of is to rework defense, or defense buffs to prevent damage on a percentage value rather than a raw number, as this will be a more simpler way to balance offense vs defense.

    Well said Keave. A thousand times yes to this.
  • LoveLoveRice
    182 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Nerf Poe what happens? Speed teams and early turn RNG is the new meta. The game is just fundamentally flawed. When the slowest characters finally get a turn, they do not impact the battle that much. Poe makes it so the enemies slow characters never even get a turn, if he goes first. As said before the "POE" we are talking about is at the highest level of game play Min/Maxed. 98% of the players posting or chiming in, do not really understand the QQ.
  • Rolf
    1032 posts Member
    Tough debate. One nice part though is that Poe's available for F2P. It's rare for a game to have the *big meta* character that everyone fights about actually be available to the rest of us instead of just whales. Thanks Devs for that, no matter what you decide to do with him.
    My ally code: 296-673-769. Wish we could have more than 35.
  • The problem is his speed!

    This is the problem with poe. I really think his expose chance is a part of his synergy and should not be touched. even if he is a turn 8 toon instead of a turn 7 would be enough in my opinion.
  • Nerf Poe what happens? Speed teams and early turn RNG is the new meta. The game is just fundamentally flawed. When the slowest characters finally get a turn, they do not impact the battle that much. Poe makes it so the enemies slow characters never even get a turn, if he goes first. As said before the "POE" we are talking about is at the highest level of game play Min/Maxed. 98% of the players posting or chiming in, do not really understand the QQ.

    I completely agree. If Poe's speed meter reduction were taken off, we would just see teams of Sid, Lea, Rey, GS and Dooku running amok. The strategy of go first and kill wouldn't really change, it would just be the execution that changes.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Eleiem wrote: »
    goobstoob wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Triqui wrote: »
    reizse wrote: »
    TBH with you guys...if you make poe unusable (whether by removing his TM reduction or lowering his speed), you will quickly see the real problem behind him...it's been said a thousand times. speed + dmg in disproportionate quantities in comparison to health and defense. poe is just the icing. i've said it before, i don't care if poe gets nerfed or not. he's not part of my arena line up (lvl 27, gear 2 used in the INT challenge only). i may be a masochist when i say this..but i kind of enjoy fighting poe teams even if the chance to lose is really high.

    whatever.
    poe was usable, and used, before he was turn 7, with the lvl 60 cap. He was just less dominant because there was people who acted consistently before him.

    Poe at 142 speed will be useful, and used. Maybe not omnipresent as he is now, but Han is not omnipresent either, and he is not useless.

    Poe at 143 speed, but without turn meter steal, will be useful as a early taunter that protect squishier targets. He just will not be able to warp time and space and make his whole team act before the enemy blinks.

    I'm farmng Poe right now. I have no problems to join the meta and play like everybody else. He is easy to farm, that's not an issue. But his ability is problematic. FOO will be problematic in the future. Time manipulation so early in the game is not a good design. It leads to all kind of broken possibilities and it opens the door to turn 1 winning combos. And turn 1 winning combos are a bad thing.

    Turn 1 winning combos are ensures by having ALL turn 7 chars. The problem is that assining Poe to turn 8 just invalidates him as a tank to protect. The only reason turn 8 chars are usefull today is because Poe has 1 chance in 5 (for a full turn 7 team which dominated/will dominate arena) or 20% to make turn 8 glass tanks useful.

    If Poe goes to turn 8, see if you can agree, then the meta will shift to have 5 turn 7 chars like Dooku, Sid, Daka, Rey, GS, QGJ...well, that's exactly what you see at high Arena ranks.

    The ONLY reason some people bring other chars like Droids for example, is because they have a chance to sometimes win. If you delete Poe turn 7, it's all turn 7 wars.

    The biggest offenders are Rey and GS (and FOTP but we'll see with the fix), maybe QGJ but he is turn 8 at least. Dooku is fast and annoying but doesn't one shot anybody, maybe on the strong side but fairly balanced IMO. Same with Sid.

    If Rey and GS are toned down alongside Poe's turn meter manipulation, a tankier team with some healing will have a good chance at surviving and eventually whittle down a 5 dps team.

    I say just TURN UP the tanks!

    And give them more health. It's hilarious a "tank" such as Han have 11K health.

    It wouldnt matter that much, if his armor had a meaningful impact. Thus he will have same HP than armorless Poggle, but will survive more. Currently it is not like that, as armor is meaningless.

    Overall damage reduction (or hp increase) has the countereffect of making glass cannons less glassmade. I think ir you choose to use glass cannons, you agree that they can die in a few hits. The problem is that if you choose to use tankier dudes, you expect them to be able to tank. They don't.

    Armor effectivness is what need to be addressed
  • Due to his high speed poe goes first and exposes maybe 3 toons.If you build an aoe team around this you are guaranteed to kill at least two squishy dps characters in the first round.If you build a high single target damage team around him your dps will kill the exposed toons in one shot so at least 1 or two guys dead.A turn meter manipulation squad with phasma,foo,kylo and fives and poe and the enemy toons will NEVER get a turn before your entire team twice.A stun team?not viable but he can protect dooku.A stealth team?never seen one yet.What my point is that any possible team or synergy you can think of becomes better with poe so all teams have to have him because he is so good at what he does than any other tank in the game.So how about buffing the other tanks instead of nerfing poe further than he is already going to be.Savage and mace are getting buffed but how about showing han some love especially after what happened in force awakens lol.
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