Poe Dameron balancing

Replies

  • goobstoob
    171 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    M9silent wrote: »
    @goobstoob And I was okay with 99% of him, even before the patch notes released. I still don't think it's fair to have ability debuffs that can't be resisted. That's ****. All debuffs should have the chance to be resisted, unless against a specific group. Such as: Darth Vaders basic can't be dodged or resisted by Jedi. Fair enough. Poe Damerons turn meter can not be resisted by First Order troops. Perfect.

    But to have no one be able to resist the affect is OP and crap. Everyone should have a chance to defend, and tenacity should be able to block turn meter reduction.

    I hear that, for a long time I didn't realize that his Turn Meter Reduction couldn't be resisted. I say give him back his tenacity and make the turn meter resistable. Keep his tank abilities, that's what I really want him for. What I'm really against is all the folks wanting to take away his speed. I gotta have that or my team goes to ****, and I thought in RPG's that's what a tank is supposed to be able to do, block for your peeps.
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    goobstoob wrote: »
    It's easy to say that about a toon if you are someone who has seemingly spent more on the game. cantina shipments definitely aren't the easiest farm for me as I get the day's energy and 1 refresh as a f2p. which means average 5 shards a day. it's not the hardest, but not the easiest and I spent considerable time.
    Well, that's still only 10 days to unlock him and 6 more to get him to 4*, where he begins to be quite viable.
    I understand and respect your position as a newer player and F2P. But you should also understand that on servers like mine that started in late November, Poe has become a major menace.
    FWIW, the only thing I really want to see removed from him is the turn meter manipulation. It's not a normal part of the role of a tank, it is not necessary for him to be effective, and it is the main thing that makes him overpowered.
    Having a taunt tank who can move quickly to protect glass cannons AND give them a damage boost, even that is arguably still OP. (Why would I use a tank like Chewie who is worse in every way?) But being able to do that and also let his whole team go first is over the top. If they removed the turn meter shenanigans, I think he's still entirely worth the investment, but is no longer an instant game-changer.
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • J7000
    2059 posts Member
    goobstoob wrote: »
    Qeltar wrote: »
    J7000 wrote: »
    I think it's totally relevant to the discussion that many of us are tired of feeling like any effective team we developed and farmed is just going to be immediately smashed because folks refuse to adapt to the current meta.

    Please. When Poe first came out, sentiment was that he was underpowered. Then a few people discovered what he could do and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. He's a cheap and easy farm, F2P, and so everyone started putting them on their teams. Everyone knew they were doing this because of how powerful he was. And everyone also knew that this meant there was a good chance he would get nerfed.
    Heck, half the game got him for free!
    It's fine to ride the gravy train but eventually it ends.

    It's easy to say that about a toon if you are someone who has seemingly spent more on the game. cantina shipments definitely aren't the easiest farm for me as I get the day's energy and 1 refresh as a f2p. which means average 5 shards a day. it's not the hardest, but not the easiest and I spent considerable time. I can see how if it took much less than that for you, you have no problem just getting rid of him. that opinion doesn't make sense to people who had to take the time to work him up. i dont play a lot of games like this and I did not see a "nerf" coming. I also didn't get him for free, I started playing at the beginning of january.

    Thing is that the devs already said they will continue to monitor POE and make adjustments if necessary. They literally just announced he'll be adjusted and could be adjusted further. Why is this not enough? If they end up dropping either his speed or turn meter reduction down the road, ok. Fine. But that's after more hit 70 and possibly more characters released and some buffed and we see what happens. A gradual reasonable change seems a lot more prudent to a rash decision that will only cause us more doubt that a character we invest in could be worthless after a month or two.

  • M9silent
    821 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    @goobstoob And I agree with that. He is a great tank, and the only in who can protect squishies. He is the only one fast enough. Could resist buff removal and keep his taunt. He could expose enemies for your team. All good stuff.

    But turn meter reduction is non resistable, and there fore OP. Any hero that uses it, as an OP advantage, no matter how small.

    I'm not calling to arms against Poe Dameron. He was fine before. It's turn meter reduction.

    TLDR: turn meter reduction needs to be resistable. Give heroes a chance to defend against it. High tenacity should do it
  • J7000
    2059 posts Member
    M9silent wrote: »
    And I agree with that. He is a great tank, and the only in who can protect squishies. He is the only one fast enough. Could resist buff removal and keep his taunt. He could expose enemies for your team. All good stuff.

    But turn meter reduction is non resistable, and there fore OP. Any hero that uses it, as an OP advantage, no matter how small.

    I'm not calling to arms against Poe Dameron. He was fine before. It's turn meter reduction.

    TLDR: turn meter reduction needs to be resistable. Give heroes a chance to defend against it. High tenacity should do it

    I hate saying this out of principal but if they did that I wouldn't really care. Do I think he needs to expose people? Man I just want him to be a tank that's worth a darn in this meta. He actually helps out in this meta (my opinion).

    Others are asking for defense buffs and I'm not disagreeing. Look what they did to Bariss. There was for a moment that tanks were laughable. Now we actually have one. Don't get me wrong I've seen Han used pretty well also. And now I'm just babbling. Time to get out of the house. I apologize if I've offended anyone but maybe I'm just as concerned as the "others" about the game I play everyday.
  • Instead of nerfing poe why dont you buff some useless heroes and bring balance to the force?
  • J7000
    2059 posts Member
    Prscustom wrote: »
    Instead of nerfing poe why dont you buff some useless heroes and bring balance to the force?

    Some see buffing only as making characters do outrageous damage.. Ok, going hiking. Lol
  • @J7000 I agree. Other tanks are worthless. He's the best one available. Defense stats aren't keeping up with damage, so damage and 1 shotting is out of control. That's for another thread though.

    I think he should not have his tenacity reduced. He should have a chance to resist taunt removal. He should have high speed. Tanks need to protect dps. Expose is a fine concept, and so is the turn meter reduction, as long as it is made to be resistable.

    But again, turn meter removal isn't resistable. It's a debuff to the enemies turn meter, and they have no chance to defend against it. Not fair.

    I say, make it resistable so the enemy team has a fair chance. Maybe go a step further and have it resistable to all accept First Order troops. That makes him a bit more unique.
  • J7000 wrote: »
    Prscustom wrote: »
    Instead of nerfing poe why dont you buff some useless heroes and bring balance to the force?

    Some see buffing only as making characters do outrageous damage.. Ok, going hiking. Lol

    I hope devs dont see that way....buffing for example royal guard, greedos grenade etc..could make thoese characters usable. At current stage, they are trash
  • They gave IOS users Poe for free. Because of that I built him to 7* with money. He better not be nerfed of I'll be hunting for a refund.
  • Prscustom wrote: »
    J7000 wrote: »
    Prscustom wrote: »
    Instead of nerfing poe why dont you buff some useless heroes and bring balance to the force?

    Some see buffing only as making characters do outrageous damage.. Ok, going hiking. Lol

    I hope devs dont see that way....buffing for example royal guard, greedos grenade etc..could make thoese characters usable. At current stage, they are trash
    i'd love to see royal guard as a usable toon. very cool concept.

  • M9silent wrote: »
    @goobstoob And I agree with that. He is a great tank, and the only in who can protect squishies. He is the only one fast enough. Could resist buff removal and keep his taunt. He could expose enemies for your team. All good stuff.

    But turn meter reduction is non resistable, and there fore OP. Any hero that uses it, as an OP advantage, no matter how small.

    I'm not calling to arms against Poe Dameron. He was fine before. It's turn meter reduction.

    TLDR: turn meter reduction needs to be resistable. Give heroes a chance to defend against it. High tenacity should do it

    1. I like the idea of either making Poe's turn meter reduction resistable or as someone had suggested, increase the TM % based on how many Resistance members are on the team (i.e. +5% TM reduction per every Resistance member)
    2. J7K, that is exactly what we all would want to avoid; yet another nerf to Poe. I really don't think the people who are calling out Poe want him to be destroyed like Barriss
    3. No one is saying Poe is invincible. He can be beaten. So no need to be saying, "you want him nerfed because you can't beat him"
    4. Phasma and Sid are more prominent than Poe simply because they are easier to farm. If Poe were available in either Arena or GW Shipments, expect Poe to be as popular as those two
    5. It seems quite a number of people are against balancing Poe because "I have spent so much time and resources on him." Not exactly the most sound reason to oppose any balancing
    6. Poe is not the real problem. Too much speed and too much damage are the real issue. We shouldn't have the likes of Rey, GS, IG-86 and QGJ one shot killing a fully-maxed 7* hero. This is only expected to get worse once level cap is increased to 80. Not sure if CG is paying any attention to this...
  • J7000 wrote: »
    goobstoob wrote: »
    Qeltar wrote: »
    J7000 wrote: »
    I think it's totally relevant to the discussion that many of us are tired of feeling like any effective team we developed and farmed is just going to be immediately smashed because folks refuse to adapt to the current meta.

    Please. When Poe first came out, sentiment was that he was underpowered. Then a few people discovered what he could do and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. He's a cheap and easy farm, F2P, and so everyone started putting them on their teams. Everyone knew they were doing this because of how powerful he was. And everyone also knew that this meant there was a good chance he would get nerfed.
    Heck, half the game got him for free!
    It's fine to ride the gravy train but eventually it ends.

    It's easy to say that about a toon if you are someone who has seemingly spent more on the game. cantina shipments definitely aren't the easiest farm for me as I get the day's energy and 1 refresh as a f2p. which means average 5 shards a day. it's not the hardest, but not the easiest and I spent considerable time. I can see how if it took much less than that for you, you have no problem just getting rid of him. that opinion doesn't make sense to people who had to take the time to work him up. i dont play a lot of games like this and I did not see a "nerf" coming. I also didn't get him for free, I started playing at the beginning of january.

    Thing is that the devs already said they will continue to monitor POE and make adjustments if necessary. They literally just announced he'll be adjusted and could be adjusted further. Why is this not enough? If they end up dropping either his speed or turn meter reduction down the road, ok. Fine. But that's after more hit 70 and possibly more characters released and some buffed and we see what happens. A gradual reasonable change seems a lot more prudent to a rash decision that will only cause us more doubt that a character we invest in could be worthless after a month or two.

    Because if you start a gradual change in the wrong direction he is likely to get over nerfed and become useless when they finally do get to the issue...so now, before it goes live, is the best time to say something to stop it going down that path in the first place...and get focus on the real problem from the start so only small adjustments are needed once or twice and the character can still be effective in their role afterwards, not nerfed into the ground over weeks of small adjustments avoiding the one thing the majority of people seem to have a serious issue with.

  • I guess I don't really understand the Poe problem. I see him and instantly kill him first. Sidious health immunity, Luminary force blast and FOTP for the double tap kill. Sometimes I get one turn killed, but I don't expect to win EVEY match. Some Poe teams I win turn meter, some they win. I think he is fine the way he is. If you want to be 1st on the server, build the free to aquire and level Poe. I choose not to get/use him as I have my own team I like. I keep getting closer and closer to 100 without him. When I see him, I try to immediately kill him first, sometimes I do, sometimes I get board wiped. Just like sometimes I shoot crits and sometimes I don't. Build better teams, join the meta or improve fully what you have. The order which you attack characters and choices to heal or not greatry affect the outcome. If you are getting wiped everytime 1st turn, your team sux at its current levels. It is frustrating to lose turn 1 with out getting a turn, but it happens, and I have done it to other teams. My squad has 2 squishy characters but I like them and I max upgrade them to hang as long as possible in stars and gear. Luminara, Sidious, Jedi Consular, FOTP and Darth Maul is not considered a great team, but I'm down to 142 making progress everyday. I have not finished higher than I started on a day of squad battles. Some days more progress than others, but the AI makes dumb decisions and leaves openings to take out the team if you approach it correctly. Again, turn 1 team wipes suck, but they happen. I search for Jedi teams because of Darth Maul as he is average against non Jedi characters. Know your team, memorize players with teas to avoid, learn to guess what teams might look like based on power, level and leader. FTP should stop whining, as games are not made for us/you. I consider myself free to play, although I've spent about $50 since thanksgiving. Free games with in app purchases are meant to give you an experience and if you like what you have, support it financially. I enjoy the game so I buy the $10.99 crystal deal for 21 days to help me along. Completely free to play players are not customers, you are squaters. Your opinions matter way less than paying players. It's like giving a homeless person $5 a day and then one day you give him $1 and he complains. "Where is the othe $4?" He is not owed anything. Choosing not to pay to get ahead faster is a choice, it's a slower grind and EA doesn't own us anything. They set prices for a product and we support it or we don't. Racing a GTR with a stock neon, who do you think is going to win? EA gives everyone to ability to have the GTR. If you choose nm ot to get it, that's again, a choice. Poe free actually give FTP players a great chance to win win win. Adding Qui Gon Jin doubles that as you can taunt and then take off the other teams taunt right after. Stop complaining, make better characters with the team you have, or choose to have. Buy stuff and support the game or stop demanding changes. Business is business and we can stop companies from getting rich by not it spending on those products. It's commerce. Again, customers buy, squatters just hang out and complain about what extra hand outs they can get.
  • ZarAzi wrote: »
    CronozNL wrote: »
    Poe is fine after he gets "changed"

    https://www. youtube.com/watch?v=llSqRUqmfzg

    Thanks for taking your time to upload the video. It's pretty obvious to a lot of us that on Offense you CAN win. It's NOT impossible. Quick question, how far do you drop in your ladder with that team on Defense? You don't have to answer because the answer is obvious. A Droid team with Poe is hardly a whale team. You say you're on the meta. I can gladly say you're not. Meta isn't just about how well your team does on offense. It's also taking into considering the AI Defense aspect of your team. How viable your is your team on Defense? You know the answers to this. Uploading videos of you winning against teams with Poe without using Poe makes this argument bias and one sided. Stop spreading misinformation. It isn't fair to the others. Please consider the fact that your AOEs are useless on defense if your enemy taunts.

    Not lower than 30, finishing in the top 3 daily. That's one example, there are different comps you can watch there. Every team is beatable on defense, thats the point of this game so why are we arguing? I think misinformation is from people that say he is unbeatable with e.g. droid teams. There are so many different people here now in all these different camps. I just come her once every few days now and see nothing but assumptions and pre update QQ.
    People can draw their own conclusions on a video, says more than all the anecdotes going around here. I've seen the meta with Rey, Qgj, obi, geo, poe.
    I just wanna see where this goes with the changes ahead before we do something drastic or start flaming devs down for being more careful than the Barriss incident.
    439-259-888 I have a bad habit of editing my typo's after posting
  • Just increase all characters' HP by 50% (including Poe's, so those owners can't complain).
    Poe will still be great but other team composition beyond Poe + DPS will be viable. OR AT LEAST MORE FUN.
    Cooldowns are basically meaningless in Arena, this might also impact that.

    Then increase the timer in Arena to 6 minutes.*

    The game awards Energy every 6 (or 12) minutes and the timers all reset every 6 hours...no reason to be beholden to a 5 minute timer just because we have 5 fingers.

    * Not to say that the top Arena players will need 6 minutes--they won't--but the majority of (non-top) players might.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    Sorry for the interrupting guys! John just posted to say, there will be another update after Feb's, and they are changing the GW matching after that.

    Link?
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    Thanks. Interesting
  • Just increase all characters' HP by 50% (including Poe's, so those owners can't complain).
    Poe will still be great but other team composition beyond Poe + DPS will be viable. OR AT LEAST MORE FUN.
    Cooldowns are basically meaningless in Arena, this might also impact that.

    Then increase the timer in Arena to 6 minutes.*

    The game awards Energy every 6 (or 12) minutes and the timers all reset every 6 hours...no reason to be beholden to a 5 minute timer just because we have 5 fingers.

    * Not to say that the top Arena players will need 6 minutes--they won't--but the majority of (non-top) players might.

    I've thought about this, however I think it may have some bad unintended consequences. If HP were higher, I think the advantage on attack vs. defense would become even greater. Players are much more effective than the AI, and the fact that we can focus fire on the right toons while AI attacks somewhat randomly would mean that you wouldn't loose to anyone even remotely close to you in power level when on the offense.
  • Just increase all characters' HP by 50% (including Poe's, so those owners can't complain).
    Poe will still be great but other team composition beyond Poe + DPS will be viable. OR AT LEAST MORE FUN.
    Cooldowns are basically meaningless in Arena, this might also impact that.

    Then increase the timer in Arena to 6 minutes.*

    The game awards Energy every 6 (or 12) minutes and the timers all reset every 6 hours...no reason to be beholden to a 5 minute timer just because we have 5 fingers.

    * Not to say that the top Arena players will need 6 minutes--they won't--but the majority of (non-top) players might.

    I've thought about this, however I think it may have some bad unintended consequences. If HP were higher, I think the advantage on attack vs. defense would become even greater. Players are much more effective than the AI, and the fact that we can focus fire on the right toons while AI attacks somewhat randomly would mean that you wouldn't loose to anyone even remotely close to you in power level when on the offense.

    Which is a separate issue. I would be all for further AI improvements in arena, but seriously, anything but this high-speed one-shot meta.
  • Heisen wrote: »

    Which is a separate issue. I would be all for further AI improvements in arena, but seriously, anything but this high-speed one-shot meta.

    I don't like the meta either, and I think the speed is the bigger problem. Toon viability comes down to speed most of the time (Clone Sergeant would be busted if he had 143+ speed, but now he's unusable).

    I think if they pulled everyones speed closer to the median, and added some more variance to determine turn order (i.e. Dooku would go before Chewie 8/10 times, but there'd be a small chance that Chewie could get the first move), it would make Arena combat much more interesting.

    I personally like variance and unpredictability (so potential one shots don't actually bother me that much), and I think if turn order wasn't as predictable it would make help keep things fresh and diverse.
  • Good thing I am F2P. Sleep well at night and just can enjoy myself.

    +100

    Same here, nerf away....
  • goobstoob wrote: »
    Puglio wrote: »
    EA_Jesse wrote: »
    There have been numerous posts about this character and how our recent changes aren’t enough and that he will still be “OP”. We are reading each and every one of your posts, so know that you are being heard.

    When you say every post, do you mean every post? Or every post in the update thread?

    it's been said a few times now, can we talk actual data/team comparison in regards to this? i know the internet was made for trollers and flamers to get a laugh but seriously, a topic this hot isn't worth trolling over and over. (or maybe it is if you're a serious troll, LOL)

    What are you even talking about?
  • He got nerfed. For those still complaining and want further nerfs, what I really hear is, "I hate this character so much, I won't be happy until he is trash". Just play the update. His nerfs will affect the character in a negative way.

    At lvl 70 and at 7* my team can usually survive a round of attackers, heal up and return fire. Now that his expose will rarely affect the enemy team, that makes it even easier to survive the first round. Furthermore, his drop in tenacity allows Dooku to stun him, and QGJ to reliably remove his taunt and grant offense up to the team around him (I.e. more counter options). The person I compete for #1 spot in arena does not use Poe and I struggle to beat his team. Poe is not the holy grail. If anything, he allows the other 4 characters in a lineup to be more diverse, since slower characters will be worthless without a character like Poe.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    l3end3r wrote: »
    He got nerfed. For those still complaining and want further nerfs, what I really hear is, "I hate this character so much, I won't be happy until he is trash". Just play the update. His nerfs will affect the character in a negative way.
    What it is being said is: " nobody, ever, said that Poe's problem was his expose. The problem is the turn control at high speed, and this do not address that"

  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Triqui wrote: »
    What it is being said is: " nobody, ever, said that Poe's problem was his expose. The problem is the turn control at high speed, and this do not address that"
    For some of us it's even beyond that. Because the current fix doesn't address the issue with him, they are now looking at further adjustments, but this has the potential for making things worse in two ways:
    1. Even more people will put resources into him thinking "okay he was nerfed but he's still basically the same", not realizing another change is coming (or realizing it but feeling they need to do it anyway.)
    2. The initial changes, while not fixing the problem with him, will make him too weak when the second changes are made.
    Now hopefully the team will take all of this into account. It's somewhat rare though for a specific change (like reducing tenacity/expose) to be backed out.
    In a way, the "nerf brigade" is actually looking out for not overnerfing Poe. Personally, I think it is better that he be nerfed just once, tackling the specific issue with him (high speed with turn meter manipulation) and then be done with it so everyone can move on. But hey, I'm not in charge.
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • d3gauss
    311 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    I have said time and time again, I want more communication from the devs. They gave me what I asked for so honestly I'm not that upset here.

    Poe is ridiculous, I think everyone knows this. He doesn't actually have any weaknesses, and anything that comes close to a weakness he has a built in counter for.

    I think CG knows this, but they also know what happened when they nerf Barris. They know that they have a majority of the population relying on poe and if they nerfed him in the same way they did barriss it would create the same refund talks.

    They are being cautious and I actually think that is a good thing. It does suck that I will be fighting all poe teams for a few more months while they continue to look at the data, but it is what it is. Arena is actually fairly poorly designed so I don't focus on it.

    Anyways, for the moment I'm on CGs side on this.

    That being said they did probably make the problem worse by letting us see the whole team, and I'm not sure why they did it; completely unnecessary move.
This discussion has been closed.