Poe Dameron balancing

Replies

  • Just make a counter character that taunts/buff/debuffs/shields or whatever on any meter manipulation. NERF avoided

    This will give a solid counter to the whole meta and open other strategies.
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Cythis wrote: »
    Just make a counter character that taunts/buff/debuffs/shields or whatever on any meter manipulation. NERF avoided

    This will give a solid counter to the whole meta and open other strategies.

    There have been suggestions like this. I saw a great one a couple of weeks back along these lines:
    "Unique: Anything that would reduce the turn meter of anyone on this character's team adds to it the same amount instead".
    Imagine tossing THAT into the Poe meta! Assuming the rest of this character's kit was good, we'd start to see some interesting moves and counter-moves...
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • M9silent wrote: »
    M9silent wrote: »
    @goobstoob Okay, so leave his speed. Having a top tier tank that can protect your squishies is fine. It's the job of a tank.

    So leave his 2 turn taunt. He can be burned down, and that's his job. Taunt enemies and take damage. He's a tank.

    So, let him keep his old expose chance. It's what makes him unique.

    Now, keep his time meter reduction as well. But MAKE IT RESISTABLE like every other effect. Is that so bad? Would that really demolish Poe? A high tenacity team could have a chance at not going last, and tenacity leaders would see some use. Is that afwul?

    @Preemo_Magin What about my suggestion? To make his reduction resistable. Would that destroy Poe? Anything that affects an enemies team should be able to be resisted. So they have a chance.

    I think that's great too...or more simply turn into a Speed Down for 1 turn (which already resistable)...this way it doesn't affect everyone liearly and in one shot, but delays slowest and thise firther away from a turn. This also tames Phasma a tnt bit as Speed down from her and Poe would not overlap. Tou can't have everything. With Poe + Phasma you'd pretty much likely have everyone on Speed down (Phasma is 2 turns I think so it is still and imorovmenent but Poe would come sooner.

  • If you take a look at the Feb update patch notes, it says the following:

    "Poe is meant to be a high risk high reward character"

    Honestly I don't find his skillset anywhere close to that description. Where's the risk in using his taunt? That it only exposes 65%? Come on....his taunt already goes first and there's a TM reduction n he has a large HP pool.

    You say he's high risk high reward, really I see the rewards outweighing the risks way too much.

    There are high risk high rewards toons in the game and verified by CG in their descriptions.

    Eg.
    1. Rey (low Hp, high dmg, works even better with buffs or enemy debuffs)
    2. Maul (low hp low speed, high dmg)

    I see some trade offs in the listed examples. I don't see any in Poe. Someone enlighten me perhaps what's the risk in using him?

    And if I may add, yes he's basic atk sucks but hey it doesn't suck as bad as Bariss AND it has a chance to make people hit like Bariss with offense down.

    Where is the risk?
  • EA_Jesse wrote: »
    Greetings heroes,

    We wanted to take a few moments to talk to you about a very hot topic here on the forums, Poe Dameron.

    There have been numerous posts about this character and how our recent changes aren’t enough and that he will still be “OP”. We are reading each and every one of your posts, so know that you are being heard.

    As you saw in the update notes, we are making some balance changes to Poe Dameron as a first step. We will continue to monitor how Poe performs in squads after the update, and if needed we will make additional changes. We’re taking an approach of slowly adjusting characters if we feel they are too powerful instead of making changes that may be too drastic.

    It sounds like a reasonable way to change things. Just remember you can't make everyone happy, he'll either be too strong for the ppl too lazy to get him and use him or he'll be to weak for the avid player who puts in the strenuous work it takes to grind for such a character. Slow changes and you'll eventually hit the sweet spot for everyone to be happy :)
  • Triqui wrote: »
    goobstoob wrote: »
    . Completely taking Poe out of the game with reduction of speed is a severe nerf. He will be unusable within my synergy (probly still pretty okay on a full resistance team). I have said before and I'll say it again, if the new changes don't balance enough, maybe look at the turn meter reduction portion of resistance bravado as the next balance attempt.
    Great! We are on the same page then. I dont want to nerf Poe. I want to seal the possibility of first turn wins, be it Poe, or FOO, or any future speed 143 turn manipulator char. Let Poe taunt at 143 speed if you want. Just remove the "I-do-5-things-in-a-row" option.

    I'm currently theorycrafting a team like this:

    Poe goes first. He removes 25% TM.
    Phasma uses Marching Orders. My team gets TM and acts all together.
    Clone Sargeant AOE. Enemy team loses 50% TM.
    Moff Tarkin shoots basic attack.
    darth Maul AOE.
    Phasma acts again (enemy had been stripped of their TM) and AOE slows.
    Moff Tarkin AOE and strips 60% TM
    Clone and Poe shoot
    Darth Maul chainkill everything.

    Other options exist with Lando or Assajj too. More options will come, as they release more and more chsracters. Poe (and FOO) ability to enable 5 actions before enemy act opens a door to all kind of unbalanced stuff.

    Let him taunt. I dont care. Tanks are fine. Time walking at 143 speed is too much

    You don't seem to understand the turn 7-8 high assist meta. No wonder you want Poe to become unusable. By the time you do anything your only two chars that deal true dmg ...they are dead. The only chance you have to construct this specialty team is...by using Poe and hoping yours taunts right first at turn 8...but by then Maul may very well be dead already.
  • l3end3r wrote: »
    He got nerfed. For those still complaining and want further nerfs, what I really hear is, "I hate this character so much, I won't be happy until he is trash". Just play the update. His nerfs will affect the character in a negative way.

    At lvl 70 and at 7* my team can usually survive a round of attackers, heal up and return fire. Now that his expose will rarely affect the enemy team, that makes it even easier to survive the first round. Furthermore, his drop in tenacity allows Dooku to stun him, and QGJ to reliably remove his taunt and grant offense up to the team around him (I.e. more counter options). The person I compete for #1 spot in arena does not use Poe and I struggle to beat his team. Poe is not the holy grail. If anything, he allows the other 4 characters in a lineup to be more diverse, since slower characters will be worthless without a character like Poe.
    Triqui wrote: »
    l3end3r wrote: »
    He got nerfed. For those still complaining and want further nerfs, what I really hear is, "I hate this character so much, I won't be happy until he is trash". Just play the update. His nerfs will affect the character in a negative way.
    What it is being said is: " nobody, ever, said that Poe's problem was his expose. The problem is the turn control at high speed, and this do not address that"

    I had read about 50 posts if not more complaining about expose. Of course, all that rethoric MAGICALLY GOES AWAY since that was just nerfed. Now the only thing that matters is ...whatever comes next in your agenda. For my setup the expose is important, I need negative status do do mora damage. So It already nerfed apoe, but also IG-88. That's assuming he goes first at turn 8 and is not stunned or abikity blocked ...which was nerfed too! But that doesn't matter. And all this, assuming my glass cannon didn't die with other turn 7 enemies, or earlier turn 8 assists or stuns.

    A lot of IF IF If...now reduce his turn meter manipulation, and Poe is absolutely changed from a fast taunter with time manipulation and expose, to a squishy tank that does nothing...not a Poe...put a Pos.....

    What I don't understand is how can some people have so mean and hateful energy to go ruining the most interesting chars like Barris and now the only useful Tank. A nerf request is strickly negative and anti-others. It's deceiving - as Barris was deceiving. It's unethical to do it without any serious compensation.

    I am already very upset.

    If they make expose resistable or a Speed Down...I accept that as "pleasing the crowd" although I fundamentally don't think it's deserved.

    Anything further and I will go to the App Store agents and walking away from here.

    CG needs to stand up for their clients....crowd pleasing is ok when it benefits everyone. These cases just please the whiners as even many requesting the nerf know of many counters and many #1 non Poe teams.



  • @Preemo_Magin Not everyone wants Poe destroyed. Don't you read at all? No. You just lump us all together.

    Me: I want the patch note change to Poe to be reverted. I want Poe as fast as he is, taunting like he does, tossing expose on targets and reducing turn meter (debatable to some). He was great the way he was.

    Turn meter reduction needs to be resistable. The tenacity stat should protect the players heroes from debuffs, including debuffing my filled/almost filled turn meter bars. Innits current state, TMR is unresistable. That's completely unfair. All heroes should have a chance to defend themselves, and it might see a few tenacity based leaders comenjnto the meta, bringing diversity.

    That wouldn't break your little Poe would it?
  • Hell, getting rid of his TMR would be a fast solve, but then FOO is coming soon.
  • Preemo_Magin
    1826 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    If you take a look at the Feb update patch notes, it says the following:

    "Poe is meant to be a high risk high reward character"

    Honestly I don't find his skillset anywhere close to that description. Where's the risk in using his taunt? That it only exposes 65%? Come on....his taunt already goes first and there's a TM reduction n he has a large HP pool.

    You say he's high risk high reward, really I see the rewards outweighing the risks way too much.

    There are high risk high rewards toons in the game and verified by CG in their descriptions.

    Eg.
    1. Rey (low Hp, high dmg, works even better with buffs or enemy debuffs)
    2. Maul (low hp low speed, high dmg)

    I see some trade offs in the listed examples. I don't see any in Poe. Someone enlighten me perhaps what's the risk in using him?

    And if I may add, yes he's basic atk sucks but hey it doesn't suck as bad as Bariss AND it has a chance to make people hit like Bariss with offense down.

    Where is the risk?

    He does little damage. If he taunts last at turn 8 you likely lost your glass canon. Or he is ine shot and then behind him your team is all squishies...high risk, low rewards there!

    Or he taunts first and immediately after the enemy QGJ dispells his taunt and does the equivalent of what a full dedicated char (Poogle) would do and without using a dedicating turn....buff the entire enemy offensive. And he also damages Poe...which after that becomes a useless char that does 2.5k damage and nothing more.

    Those are 2 high risk scenarios...and there are many more...

    If you don't know that then it's obvious you want him nerfed. You don't understand him at all. I hope this examples are educational. If not, then ...I can give a horse water, but only it can drink it.

    A high risk high reward character is Sid. He likely goes first. He does all the damage immediately. He crits extremely often for 4.9k each char. He basicaly damages team for anout 16k to 22k immediately and then 10k (if not more) of damage over time before turn 2 ends.

    And he is almost impossible to stun due to verybhigh resistance. He prevents heals. Resists all Jedi's. Has the best leadership in the entire game based on number of timesnused. He is high reward. And also carries zero risk. It always does what it does early on and so reliably, and even if it's not the greatest crit ever, he is still bringing the best Leadership after (and if) he dies.

    So Jesse says High Risk High Reward...which to me says they know what they are doing and what is happening here.
  • I like the approach but this game, like many others, has a serious balance problem. Thing is the way the characters are set up leads to a pretty much all Agro meta. High DPS characters , such as genossian soldier, should not have life or health as high as his is. If they hit like a truck they should take a hit like a princess . Darth Maul is a good example of this principle. To have a character that can do massive amounts of damage and still be able to take a beating pretty much throws the balance of the game off . So what you end up with is the current meta-, which is pretty much the same characters being used on every team because they're just the most powerful. I'm not saying that every character should be crated this way, I understand that abilities and such things also play a factor . But it still remains that there are certain characters that are too powerful and have not even been mentioned . Using genossian soldier again, he has an ability that gives him a high chance to do 50% more damage just on his basic attack besides having the assist and massive Hitpoints. Now you put in a few characters like this behind Poe which already cuts most of your teams health by 20%, takes away their turn meters, and protects the not so fragile cannons behind him and you have pretty much the current meta- because it is such a hard thing to defeat. I think that there is more than just Poe that needs to be balanced and that the dev team over at EA needs to take a long look at the current leader boards in their arena servers (and even allot of galactic war teams) to see how they should start to go about this. A balanced game should have an unpredictable outcome no matter which characters are being used on each team as well as having a variety of characters and different team makeups . That variety of choice of which characters to combine is what gives a game the longevity and fun that it needs to keep going and gain more player base . Having to run the same 5 to 10 characters every time just to not lose every game becomes very tedious and boring and can seriously cause a game to get dropped very easily.

    I completely agree that original problem is high speed, high HP, massive damage. Suppose IG-88...it's a great droid. It's squishy. Actually it may very well be the squishiest char. You could NEVER use him unless you can have a tank to make it last at least his first turn. Remive Poe, and you remove IG-88.

    Poe doesn't invalidate GS or any of the turn 7 and turn 8 gorillas with bazukas. It creates the possibility of dealing with them. that gorilla chars can also use Poe well, that's no reason to destroy the char that creates some counter to high speed, damange and HP in one combo.

    So you think eliminating Poe would solve or make GS-like squads even more prevalent?

    I think it would make them even more prevalent bc the real problem is the massive damage that is put out by these hard to kill and fat characters. Poe simply add to the effect by making making it a 3 vs 5 battle after turn 1.
    Wispsi wrote: »
    Wispsi wrote: »
    The irony of coming into a stickied dev started post on Poe dameron to whine about people complaining Poe is too strong... Then making ad hominems focused on their posting habits and what they might be doing to the forums ahaha

    I giggled :)

    The post was to announce they nerfed and will be monitoring. To take a character that has just been made worst significantly (yes, 1 less Expose or two means one and maybe two chars alive, means about 15% less damage from supporting chars like IG-88, and other bad consequences), and more vulnerable to stuns (which go earlier), to complain that this has made things actually worst (there is a post with just a title like that), and directing at how CG has no clue...for me, it's insukting. The parch hasn't even been launched yet. I am sorry by extreme whining can get ocassional remarks about the poster, and I don't think any of those has been flaming or toxic.

    We had a char that required no nerfing nerfed. And the announcement that he was nerfed and is on the "endangered species" list, to then read for the 70th post the same iver and over in bold and in such terms is for me disrespecting. Not just of one person in particular, for for all that own this character, or don't own and like it. If you want to nerf nerf Sid and Phasma. They lead 78% of my top 50 Arena and are OP.

    Also, if you know the forum history, many here crying nerf (you know who you are) have many many post silencing people that proposed to nerf other characters in the past 3 mo, so.....

    As far as I am aware the post made about the Poe problem being worse after the patch was in relation to also being able to see people's teams in arena...am I mistaken? And well it is a possibility that it could make the problem worse, as the issue most people have with him has not been addressed in the slightest. But if i am not mistaken then you are being very misleading with what you have written.
    I like the approach but this game, like many others, has a serious balance problem. Thing is the way the characters are set up leads to a pretty much all Agro meta. High DPS characters , such as genossian soldier, should not have life or health as high as his is. If they hit like a truck they should take a hit like a princess . Darth Maul is a good example of this principle. To have a character that can do massive amounts of damage and still be able to take a beating pretty much throws the balance of the game off . So what you end up with is the current meta-, which is pretty much the same characters being used on every team because they're just the most powerful. I'm not saying that every character should be crated this way, I understand that abilities and such things also play a factor . But it still remains that there are certain characters that are too powerful and have not even been mentioned . Using genossian soldier again, he has an ability that gives him a high chance to do 50% more damage just on his basic attack besides having the assist and massive Hitpoints. Now you put in a few characters like this behind Poe which already cuts most of your teams health by 20%, takes away their turn meters, and protects the not so fragile cannons behind him and you have pretty much the current meta- because it is such a hard thing to defeat. I think that there is more than just Poe that needs to be balanced and that the dev team over at EA needs to take a long look at the current leader boards in their arena servers (and even allot of galactic war teams) to see how they should start to go about this. A balanced game should have an unpredictable outcome no matter which characters are being used on each team as well as having a variety of characters and different team makeups . That variety of choice of which characters to combine is what gives a game the longevity and fun that it needs to keep going and gain more player base . Having to run the same 5 to 10 characters every time just to not lose every game becomes very tedious and boring and can seriously cause a game to get dropped very easily.

    I completely agree that original problem is high speed, high HP, massive damage. Suppose IG-88...it's a great droid. It's squishy. Actually it may very well be the squishiest char. You could NEVER use him unless you can have a tank to make it last at least his first turn. Remive Poe, and you remove IG-88.

    Poe doesn't invalidate GS or any of the turn 7 and turn 8 gorillas with bazukas. It creates the possibility of dealing with them. that gorilla chars can also use Poe well, that's no reason to destroy the char that creates some counter to high speed, damange and HP in one combo.

    So you think eliminating Poe would solve or make GS-like squads even more prevalent?

    I cannot find anybody who said he needs to be eliminated or nerfed into the ground or have the fast taunt playstyle removed...

    He can be brought back into line without being destroyed. His playstyle or taunting first and protecting squishies can still be completely viable after a nerf to his 100% guaranteed turn meter reduction...

    also most people accusing for Poe nerf appear to think that the meta of huge dps is not a good one, would prefer that changed. But having super high damage meta whilst at the same time having a tank that allows your whole team to take a turn before the enemy is a bit unreasonable. As most who have argued the case for Poe to be nerfed, they would prefer huge sweeping adjustments to make games last past the first turn, but that is far less likely than toning down the guy who gives overwhelming advantage to his team in such a meta whilst getting to go first...either is bearable, both together is just stupid.

    Even without Poe the fast high damage high health teams is not bearable bc if completely negates like 80% of the other characters. Possible synergies and combinations and variety are all not possible bc of the main problem. But I agree with most of everything else you said
    Viperish wrote: »
    Dmg problem.
    Poe problem.

    Two things which have a resounding presence in a lot of these posts. Poe allows and even propels the dmg problem. Remove Poe and the dmg issue still remains. So, we then have part of the root of the issue, damage.

    Arena battles are the only place anyone has these issues as meta doesn't matter outside this area. Why not reduce dmg and adjust healing as you see fit of everyone in Arenas and adjust from there? One shot killing ppl should not happen unless under very specific circumstances( like ig-88 with Boba leader buff + 5x dot buff + offense up + expose). These types of things should be rare and difficult to pull off. Having multiple Heroes able to one shot other heroes within the first round negates the use of the majority of heroes within this setting as well as strategies involving them. Early in the game when in the 40-50lvl range battles would last into the 4th-6th rounds. Those battles were so much more enjoyable than the 1-2/1-3 round battles we have now. Yes, maybe that was "cuz low lvl". Regardless of that, if battles would last longer more variety in heroes would be present and viable within this game type.

    Damage is the underlying issue. Changing how much damage is done in arena will prevent nerfs of any kind of any characters. That's something I think everyone can get on board with. Those who want nerfs and those who want heroes to stay the same will both get what they want. In addition more viable builds would hopefully surface and shake things up a bit.

    Completely agree, but in addition to dmg in Arena there also needs to be done balancing done on the characters. To do that the devs need to either play the game themselves or at least look at the line ups of the top teams and take notice to the redundant characters in them.
  • M9silent wrote: »
    @Preemo_Magin Not everyone wants Poe destroyed. Don't you read at all? No. You just lump us all together.

    That wouldn't break your little Poe would it?

    I commented that this case would be totally ok because it's just logical (and as bonus makes game more interesting).

    Why couldn't chars use their stats to resist? Actually, I would consider this a bug. Unless in cases like Vader which the skill specifically mentions chars cannot resist it, any negative effect should be resistable. Only buffs to allies should apply to everyone.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    Triqui wrote: »
    goobstoob wrote: »
    . Completely taking Poe out of the game with reduction of speed is a severe nerf. He will be unusable within my synergy (probly still pretty okay on a full resistance team). I have said before and I'll say it again, if the new changes don't balance enough, maybe look at the turn meter reduction portion of resistance bravado as the next balance attempt.
    Great! We are on the same page then. I dont want to nerf Poe. I want to seal the possibility of first turn wins, be it Poe, or FOO, or any future speed 143 turn manipulator char. Let Poe taunt at 143 speed if you want. Just remove the "I-do-5-things-in-a-row" option.

    I'm currently theorycrafting a team like this:

    Poe goes first. He removes 25% TM.
    Phasma uses Marching Orders. My team gets TM and acts all together.
    Clone Sargeant AOE. Enemy team loses 50% TM.
    Moff Tarkin shoots basic attack.
    darth Maul AOE.
    Phasma acts again (enemy had been stripped of their TM) and AOE slows.
    Moff Tarkin AOE and strips 60% TM
    Clone and Poe shoot
    Darth Maul chainkill everything.

    Other options exist with Lando or Assajj too. More options will come, as they release more and more chsracters. Poe (and FOO) ability to enable 5 actions before enemy act opens a door to all kind of unbalanced stuff.

    Let him taunt. I dont care. Tanks are fine. Time walking at 143 speed is too much

    You don't seem to understand the turn 7-8 high assist meta. No wonder you want Poe to become unusable. By the time you do anything your only two chars that deal true dmg ...they are dead. The only chance you have to construct this specialty team is...by using Poe and hoping yours taunts right first at turn 8...but by then Maul may very well be dead already.

    I think you did not understand the purpose of that theorycrafting excercise. Yes, Poe is the only reason a team like that (a first turn combo) is possible. The thing is: such combo shouldn't exist. At all. That's why Poe is bad game design. It opens the door to combos that allow you to play alone, regardless of opposition.
  • @Preemo_Magin I actually think they could take it one step further. Once it's resistable, add the stipulation: can't be resisted by First Order. Like Vaders attack against Jedi.

    Anyways, I think the main problem is that. Non resistable TMR. It's not fun when the enemy team goes all 5 turns without my 1, just because Poe, or FOO. Now, if j have a chance to resist, I can bring in high tenacity heroes, with a tenacity leader, and actually have a strategy. Beyond the solution 'grab Poe...free to all...everyone else is...'. That's not strategy, that's restrictive.
  • Also, poggle. Having a character that goes before most and gives +50% damage for 2 turns on a team with already fast, massive DPS is another issue also. The only only chance you have of not getting turn 1 devastated is by using dooku to try to stun him, but if they also have Poe on that team then it is totally pointless bc dooku can't attack 2 at once and the odds of stunning poggle and Poe out of whole team are very low. Actually I think you'd have more luck walking out of a casino with 10 grand in your pocket. So you can see the real problem isn't Poe by himself, it's balance and allot of it that is needed.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    l3end3r wrote: »
    He got nerfed. For those still complaining and want further nerfs, what I really hear is, "I hate this character so much, I won't be happy until he is trash". Just play the update. His nerfs will affect the character in a negative way.

    At lvl 70 and at 7* my team can usually survive a round of attackers, heal up and return fire. Now that his expose will rarely affect the enemy team, that makes it even easier to survive the first round. Furthermore, his drop in tenacity allows Dooku to stun him, and QGJ to reliably remove his taunt and grant offense up to the team around him (I.e. more counter options). The person I compete for #1 spot in arena does not use Poe and I struggle to beat his team. Poe is not the holy grail. If anything, he allows the other 4 characters in a lineup to be more diverse, since slower characters will be worthless without a character like Poe.
    Triqui wrote: »
    l3end3r wrote: »
    He got nerfed. For those still complaining and want further nerfs, what I really hear is, "I hate this character so much, I won't be happy until he is trash". Just play the update. His nerfs will affect the character in a negative way.
    What it is being said is: " nobody, ever, said that Poe's problem was his expose. The problem is the turn control at high speed, and this do not address that"

    I had read about 50 posts if not more complaining about expose. Of course, all that rethoric MAGICALLY GOES AWAY since that was just nerfed. Now the only thing that matters is ...whatever comes next in your agenda. For my setup the expose is important, I need negative status do do mora damage. So It already nerfed apoe, but also IG-88. That's assuming he goes first at turn 8 and is not stunned or abikity blocked ...which was nerfed too! But that doesn't matter. And all this, assuming my glass cannon didn't die with other turn 7 enemies, or earlier turn 8 assists or stuns.

    A lot of IF IF If...now reduce his turn meter manipulation, and Poe is absolutely changed from a fast taunter with time manipulation and expose, to a squishy tank that does nothing...not a Poe...put a Pos.....

    What I don't understand is how can some people have so mean and hateful energy to go ruining the most interesting chars like Barris and now the only useful Tank. A nerf request is strickly negative and anti-others. It's deceiving - as Barris was deceiving. It's unethical to do it without any serious compensation.

    I am already very upset.

    If they make expose resistable or a Speed Down...I accept that as "pleasing the crowd" although I fundamentally don't think it's deserved.

    Anything further and I will go to the App Store agents and walking away from here.

    CG needs to stand up for their clients....crowd pleasing is ok when it benefits everyone. These cases just please the whiners as even many requesting the nerf know of many counters and many #1 non Poe teams.



    Youbare starting to be very annoying with your claims about agendas. Please show me a single post where I have said anything about Expose previously, and then you could talk about me changing goals in whatever agenda you believe I have. I have always said that Poe is a problem because turn manipulation. Have called him nicknames as living time walk, and have said that FOO will be just as problematic in next cap raise because he also steal TM at 143 speed.

    About your threat to CG that you will leave with your money, I'm a paying customer too. I could do the same threat if I were childish too
  • Also, poggle. Having a character that goes before most and gives +50% damage for 2 turns on a team with already fast, massive DPS is another issue also. The only only chance you have of not getting turn 1 devastated is by using dooku to try to stun him, but if they also have Poe on that team then it is totally pointless bc dooku can't attack 2 at once and the odds of stunning poggle and Poe out of whole team are very low. Actually I think you'd have more luck walking out of a casino with 10 grand in your pocket. So you can see the real problem isn't Poe by himself, it's balance and allot of it that is needed.

    Don't worry. The nerfers will get around to him sooner or later.
  • Also, poggle. Having a character that goes before most and gives +50% damage for 2 turns on a team with already fast, massive DPS is another issue also. The only only chance you have of not getting turn 1 devastated is by using dooku to try to stun him, but if they also have Poe on that team then it is totally pointless bc dooku can't attack 2 at once and the odds of stunning poggle and Poe out of whole team are very low. Actually I think you'd have more luck walking out of a casino with 10 grand in your pocket. So you can see the real problem isn't Poe by himself, it's balance and allot of it that is needed.

    Don't worry. The nerfers will get around to him sooner or later.

    Dont forget rey, fotp, geo, sid and dooku popping up again
    439-259-888 I have a bad habit of editing my typo's after posting
  • Triqui wrote: »
    Triqui wrote: »
    goobstoob wrote: »
    . Completely taking Poe out of the game with reduction of speed is a severe nerf. He will be unusable within my synergy (probly still pretty okay on a full resistance team). I have said before and I'll say it again, if the new changes don't balance enough, maybe look at the turn meter reduction portion of resistance bravado as the next balance attempt.
    Great! We are on the same page then. I dont want to nerf Poe. I want to seal the possibility of first turn wins, be it Poe, or FOO, or any future speed 143 turn manipulator char. Let Poe taunt at 143 speed if you want. Just remove the "I-do-5-things-in-a-row" option.

    I'm currently theorycrafting a team like this:

    Poe goes first. He removes 25% TM.
    Phasma uses Marching Orders. My team gets TM and acts all together.
    Clone Sargeant AOE. Enemy team loses 50% TM.
    Moff Tarkin shoots basic attack.
    darth Maul AOE.
    Phasma acts again (enemy had been stripped of their TM) and AOE slows.
    Moff Tarkin AOE and strips 60% TM
    Clone and Poe shoot
    Darth Maul chainkill everything.

    Other options exist with Lando or Assajj too. More options will come, as they release more and more chsracters. Poe (and FOO) ability to enable 5 actions before enemy act opens a door to all kind of unbalanced stuff.

    Let him taunt. I dont care. Tanks are fine. Time walking at 143 speed is too much

    You don't seem to understand the turn 7-8 high assist meta. No wonder you want Poe to become unusable. By the time you do anything your only two chars that deal true dmg ...they are dead. The only chance you have to construct this specialty team is...by using Poe and hoping yours taunts right first at turn 8...but by then Maul may very well be dead already.

    I think you did not understand the purpose of that theorycrafting excercise. Yes, Poe is the only reason a team like that (a first turn combo) is possible. The thing is: such combo shouldn't exist. At all. That's why Poe is bad game design. It opens the door to combos that allow you to play alone, regardless of opposition.

    So remove all turn meter manipulation? I think what tou are trying to create doesn't work. Go ahead and try it out. Niw you are trying to nerf just out of principle. Why not be more pragmatic and just build the so many counter to Poe and win win win, or actually try your Perpetual Time Machine and if it works, you'll have all if us owed...

    You are trying to actually are affecting people that spend $100 or $200 in refreshes to fundamentaly change a char out of principle, a char that's proven to have very valid counters, is very beatable, and it's not even needed to be ultra competitive. But also calling him on something many manynother chars also do (FOO, Phasma, etc).

    When I really dislike a character (like FOTP or Kylo) I get that char asap. So instead of being angry I can use it. What I learned is I then find I am ok withoit them and learn exactly how to counter. Why cannot WE as players Accept some paper, rock, scissors. There are 5 or 6 counter to Poe that win 70% or more time against any Poe team without using Poe.

    Anti-Poe is like saying you don't like Paper arock Scissors unless they remove Paper from the game as it has OP advantage over Rock.
  • What if you have it so that tiebreakers always go to the attacking team (instead of defending or random).

    That way in Poe vs. Poe, the attacker will always win (which is the more likely outcome anyways due to bad A.I.).

    However, then you'll have a waste of a character slot on defense. Might incentivize people to do non-Poe defenses (and thus non-Poe attacks).
  • obiwan1011
    396 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    He does little damage.

    He has a 40% chance to inflict Offense Down for 2 turns and its chance is doubled when the target is suffering any negative effect (which is very likely with Sid being so prevalent). In case you don't realise, that's 50% reduction in damage output. Rey who can dish out 10k+ damage is now only delivering 5k+ and suddenly doesn't look too scary. In case you forgot, 40% is the same percentage as Dooku stunning someone with his Lightning. What else more do you want? Hit like a FOTP?
    If he taunts last at turn 8 you likely lost your glass canon.

    No other tank goes at turn 8. Plus, what you stated - i.e. "you likely lost your glass cannon" is exactly what makes Poe peerless and breaks the game
    Or he is ine shot and then behind him your team is all squishies...high risk, low rewards there!

    Except for the few with very high hp, most heroes are no exception to this one shot kill (which, btw is the biggest problem in this game). So where exactly is this high risk part that is only confined to Poe? Say you have Han instead of Poe. He gets one shot killed (mind you that he has less hp than Poe) and you have the same situation with your squishies left behind. Is Han also a high risk, low reward then?
    Or he taunts first and immediately after the enemy QGJ dispells his taunt and does the equivalent of what a full dedicated char (Poogle) would do and without using a dedicating turn....buff the entire enemy offensive. And he also damages Poe...which after that becomes a useless char that does 2.5k damage and nothing more.

    1. That is only possible if QGJ has survived waves of your glass cannon attacks. Based on what you are saying, I am sure you are smart enough to see the risk and eliminate him first
    2. That is only possible if QGJ is successful in dispelling his taunt. Even with the expected re-balancing of his tenacity, Poe still has the highest value
    3. Even if the taunt is dispelled, the damage is already done as your team has already made their turns, thank you very much
    4. So is Han. If his taunt is dispelled, he is even more useless than Poe who can at least can inflict Offense Down and self heal by resisting negative effects
    A high risk high reward character is Sid. And he is almost impossible to stun due to verybhigh resistance. He prevents heals. Resists all Jedi's. Has the best leadership in the entire game based on number of timesnused. He is high reward. And also carries zero risk. It always does what it does early on and so reliably, and even if it's not the greatest crit ever, he is still bringing the best Leadership after (and if) he dies.

    Yes, Sid is very powerful, but has low hp. Plus, no matter what he can do, he does not allow your team to go first over the other team.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    So remove all turn meter manipulation?

    No. Just turn manipulation at 143 speed that can start a chain reaction before the enemy plays.
    I'm perfectly fine with Phasma, for example. Before she can do her magic, the other team has the option to act. Hence, it is bslanced, if the other team do not have anything to stop her, it's their fault. But Poe, or FOO next cap raise, can win initiative, start the chain reaction, and win without giving the opposite team any chance to play. That's bad game design. And should not be allowed by principle, yes.

    I have spent more than 200$, btw, and should be able to use the chars I got too. To do that, I need to have any of them alive when my turn starts. That's why ot is a bad idea to open the door to possible 1st turn wins.

    I have Poe unlocked. Having him is not a problem. I play Droids, Poe is a natural fit there. I don't think everybody rushing to get nuclear weapons make nukes bslsnced, tho.

    I think tanks as a whole need more viability. And Support/debuffers/heslers too, for that matter. I think Poe as a fast taunter is a great Idea. I think sny turn meter manipulation before the other team csn react opens the door to 1st turn combos that are uncounterable. If not yet, will happen when they keep adding chars. And that's not good for the game as a whole. Be it Pie, FOO, or Yoda, doesn't matter.
  • If they would remove his turn meter reduction they should reverse this current nerf and give him more health. Because now he cant resist a stun.
  • obiwan1011 wrote: »
    He does little damage.

    He has a 40% chance to inflict Offense Down for 2 turns and its chance is doubled when the target is suffering any negative effect (which is very likely with Sid being so prevalent). In case you don't realise, that's 50% reduction in damage output. Rey who can dish out 10k+ damage is now only delivering 5k+ and suddenly doesn't look too scary. In case you forgot, 40% is the same percentage as Dooku stunning someone with his Lightning. What else more do you want? Hit like a FOTP?
    If he taunts last at turn 8 you likely lost your glass canon.

    No other tank goes at turn 8. Plus, what you stated - i.e. "you likely lost your glass cannon" is exactly what makes Poe peerless and breaks the game
    Or he is ine shot and then behind him your team is all squishies...high risk, low rewards there!

    Except for the few with very high hp, most heroes are no exception to this one shot kill (which, btw is the biggest problem in this game). So where exactly is this high risk part that is only confined to Poe?
    Or he taunts first and immediately after the enemy QGJ dispells his taunt and does the equivalent of what a full dedicated char (Poogle) would do and without using a dedicating turn....buff the entire enemy offensive. And he also damages Poe...which after that becomes a useless char that does 2.5k damage and nothing more.

    1. That is only possible if QGJ has survived waves of your glass cannon attacks. Based on what you are saying, I am sure you are smart enough to see the risk and eliminate him first
    2. That is only possible if QGJ is successful in dispelling his taunt. Even with the expected re-balancing of his tenacity, Poe still has the highest value
    3. Even if the taunt is dispelled, the damage is already done as your team has already made their turns, thank you very much
    4. So is Han. If his taunt is dispelled, he is even more useless than Poe who can at least can inflict Offense Down and self heal by resisting negative effects
    A high risk high reward character is Sid. And he is almost impossible to stun due to verybhigh resistance. He prevents heals. Resists all Jedi's. Has the best leadership in the entire game based on number of timesnused. He is high reward. And also carries zero risk. It always does what it does early on and so reliably, and even if it's not the greatest crit ever, he is still bringing the best Leadership after (and if) he dies.

    Yes, Sid is very powerful, but has low hp. Plus, no matter what he can do, he does not allow your team to go first over the other team.

    Ok, all are very good points! Also, thanks for engaging with us at the other side arguing. I appreciate it.

    Any opinion on making turn meter reduction resistable? Another option I had though is (although I think it kills the skill a bit as Poe lifespan is extremely short life span, is make the turn meter reduction with the expose, and the taunt a separate skill.
  • obiwan1011
    396 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    If they would remove his turn meter reduction they should reverse this current nerf and give him more health. Because now he cant resist a stun.
    • Poe: turn 7, hp 13.9k, tenacity 62%
    • Han: turn 9, hp 11.2k, tenacity 33%
    • Chewie: turn 10, hp 17.5k, tenacity 37%

    Really???
  • He should still be able to resist a stun. " After these changes, Poe still has far more Tenacity than any other unit"

    You could certainly reverse the current nerf if you were going to try something else. Incremental nerfs over huge swings is good design, but I'm personaly of the opinion that this nerf is hitting the wrong part of the kit. He has a combination of top tier speed, taunt, AND enemy meter reductions. I'd say choose 2, don't give any character all 3. If he was slow, unresistable turn meter reduction and taunt would be fine. He would fit a "match closer" niche but could be countered by a faster team getting enough of an advantage before the skill went off. That kind of power secures a game if the board is relatively even when used, but getting to use it first means securing a game before an opponent can do anything (guarantees the board is relatively even on use, basically guaranteeing a win). Or, he could be a fast taunter, but without meter reduction so that his niche was "fast taunter" to shield your dps with a chance to expose enemies for bonus damage, but did't just lock out the game by giving your entire team action priority and could be countered by the handful of dispels in the game.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    medetec wrote: »
    You could certainly reverse the current nerf if you were going to try something else. Incremental nerfs over huge swings is good design, but I'm personaly of the opinion that this nerf is hitting the wrong part of the kit.
    My point of view as well.

    I'm not very fond of reducing hid expose, to begin with. Expose is the leit motiv of Resistance units. Turn meter manipulation not so much.
  • Triqui wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    You could certainly reverse the current nerf if you were going to try something else. Incremental nerfs over huge swings is good design, but I'm personaly of the opinion that this nerf is hitting the wrong part of the kit.
    My point of view as well.

    I'm not very fond of reducing hid expose, to begin with. Expose is the leit motiv of Resistance units. Turn meter manipulation not so much.

    +1
  • G
    Triqui wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    You could certainly reverse the current nerf if you were going to try something else. Incremental nerfs over huge swings is good design, but I'm personaly of the opinion that this nerf is hitting the wrong part of the kit.
    My point of view as well.

    I'm not very fond of reducing hid expose, to begin with. Expose is the leit motiv of Resistance units. Turn meter manipulation not so much.

    Why is it not the leit moriv? Phasma, FOO and Poe all affect turn meters. FOO in the movie act extremely fast too.

This discussion has been closed.