Take the case of Buffed Han vs Traya Lead. His 2nd shot has in built offense Down (-50%) and Traya gives another offense down (-50%). True Multiplicative will result in Han dealing 1 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25. He is however dealing 1 - 0.5 - 0.5 = 0.
I agree that I am completely wrong here. The Han Solo scenario is a perfect example of it being additive not multiplicative. Thanks for clearing that out.
If the down effect is calculated first and the up effect is calculated based off the new value they wouldn't exactly cancel out and the ship would cause less damage, but it shouldn't be all that much.
That is a question worth an answer from the devs. When are bonus effects calculated versus the base value and when against the current value of a stat. With mods we see that all bonuses are added to the base value of the stats. But in a battle they might use a more complex system that takes into account which status effect was applied first.
Currently it is very hard to judge from doing battles if the mechanics work as the according descriptions say. It would be a start to know how bonuses from status effects are calculated in a battle. And during battles a pop up box would be nice: one that shows the most important current stat values of a character.
So I'm playing in fleet arena and for a few days now I've noticed that it appears my ships that get both offense up and offense down at the same time are still hitting for crap compared to when they don't even have offensive buffs.
My Phantom regularly can hit for 50+K with no offensive buffs. When it has offense up (50%+) it hits for 72-80K damage, which seems about right. However, when I end up with BOTH offense up and offense down, my phantom is hitting for 26-32K damage as if ONLY offense DOWN is being counted. This isn't a one time thing, I see this happening consistently. The same thing happens to tie advanced, slave 1, etc.
If I have offense UP and offense DOWN, they should cancel each other out. Right? Seems like something is hinky and should be looked at because that ain't right. (Especially when the AI seems to not have an issue with both offense up and down on at once.)
Which one is being applied first? Could that be the missing factor?
My bet is whichever buff/debuff was applied first is the one that gets counted first.
Turn 1 you have normal offense.
Turn 2 you get offense down, putting you at 50%.
Turn 3 you get offense up, putting you at 75%.
Turn 4 offense down fades and you’re at 150%.
The sources of offense down are faster than offense up (Tarkin’s special starts on cooldown, otherwise it’d be easy to test) so that would make sense.
It was a joke.
Anyway, while everyone is trying to figure out what could cause this behaviour, i'm still doubting toons/ships actually do less damage with both off up and down than without any (de)buffs.
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
I encounter this issue in Fleet arena when myself and the opposing team are both using maxed out Chimaera. I’ll use the ability to regain health and offense up while applying offense down on the enemy fleet, and they will do the same. We both end up with offense up and down with both teams doing damage as if we only had offense down applied. That’s honestly the only scenario I’ve had this happen to me.
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
I encounter this issue in Fleet arena when myself and the opposing team are both using maxed out Chimaera. I’ll use the ability to regain health and offense up while applying offense down on the enemy fleet, and they will do the same. We both end up with offense up and down with both teams doing damage as if we only had offense down applied. That’s honestly the only scenario I’ve had this happen to me.
Have you ever noticed it happen when facing a Tarkin capital ship with the enemy getting Offense up and then you using Thrawns heal/buff ability?
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
I encounter this issue in Fleet arena when myself and the opposing team are both using maxed out Chimaera. I’ll use the ability to regain health and offense up while applying offense down on the enemy fleet, and they will do the same. We both end up with offense up and down with both teams doing damage as if we only had offense down applied. That’s honestly the only scenario I’ve had this happen to me.
Have you ever noticed it happen when facing a Tarkin capital ship with the enemy getting Offense up and then you using Thrawns heal/buff ability?
Honestly I can’t remember, I’m always top 20 in my arena shard and it’s nothing but thrawn . If I did encounter this before everyone shifted to Thrawn, I wouldn’t remember .
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
I mean no offense, but it's a lot easier for you guys to test this than it is for us. We have to look for the right opponents and finagle hoping to find the right circumstances, then also be Johnny Quick Fingers on the screenshot--but then also have to do a bunch of other battles to find out what normal damage is without any buffs or debuffs.
Now, if you're saying that you've tested it and it looks fine to you and you want us to send screenshots when it isn't fine, that's totally understandable and great and we can. But we can't tell if it was run a couple times on your end from that post.
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
I mean no offense, but it's a lot easier for you guys to test this than it is for us. We have to look for the right opponents and finagle hoping to find the right circumstances, then also be Johnny Quick Fingers on the screenshot--but then also have to do a bunch of other battles to find out what normal damage is without any buffs or debuffs.
Now, if you're saying that you've tested it and it looks fine to you and you want us to send screenshots when it isn't fine, that's totally understandable and great and we can. But we can't tell if it was run a couple times on your end from that post.
Did you read his post? Its implying that the OP might've missed other factors that's causing him to do less damage.
I've seen a lot of users not realize these sorts of things (other toons and their kits and the interaction between all the toons on the field). It could be a defense up buff, it could be a reinforcement ability or a passive unique of another ship causing the decreased damage.
For example, Geonosian Spy does +50% bonus damage against buff enemies. So when you attack Sun Fac (without a buff on Geo Spy) while he's not taunting and Sun Fac when he's taunting (he's buffed) it might do a different damage.
Geo spy grants +10% offense for each active geo ally. It could be that before having offense up/down there were 3 Geos and after having both status buffs, there are less geos on the field
We won't know what's really going on unless we can see a picture of the damage before and after the offense up/down debuff on the same toon by the same toon. He's trying to help out OP here for once, while implying that their testing showed no difference in damage dealt
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
I mean no offense, but it's a lot easier for you guys to test this than it is for us. We have to look for the right opponents and finagle hoping to find the right circumstances, then also be Johnny Quick Fingers on the screenshot--but then also have to do a bunch of other battles to find out what normal damage is without any buffs or debuffs.
Now, if you're saying that you've tested it and it looks fine to you and you want us to send screenshots when it isn't fine, that's totally understandable and great and we can. But we can't tell if it was run a couple times on your end from that post.
Did you read his post? Its implying that the OP might've missed other factors that's causing him to do less damage.
I've seen a lot of users not realize these sorts of things (other toons and their kits and the interaction between all the toons on the field). It could be a defense up buff, it could be a reinforcement ability or a passive unique of another ship causing the decreased damage.
For example, Geonosian Spy does +50% bonus damage against buff enemies. So when you attack Sun Fac (without a buff on Geo Spy) while he's not taunting and Sun Fac when he's taunting (he's buffed) it might do a different damage.
Geo spy grants +10% offense for each active geo ally. It could be that before having offense up/down there were 3 Geos and after having both status buffs, there are less geos on the field
We won't know what's really going on unless we can see a picture of the damage before and after the offense up/down debuff on the same toon by the same toon. He's trying to help out OP here for once, while implying that their testing showed no difference in damage dealt
1. I don't fight against Geo line-ups.
2. I mainly do mirror matches against other Thrawn leads with Tie Advanced, Biggs, and a TF or Tie Slicer out front.
3. Defense up isn't present when I'm doing this (I've tried against Tie Advanced, Biggs, Boba, etc.) It isn't crit immunity either.
4. I see my crits from Phantom with Offense up at 77K damage. With no offense up 52K-ish. With offense down 26-32K damage. With offense up AND offense down, 30-32K damage.
5. I don't have video to use because I don't have a phone that can do that. I don't feel like putting my game on my PC.
6. Maybe the game changers can take a look at it and give it a shot? Oh, wait.....
I appreciate the discussion here though! Thanks for providing input all.
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
I mean no offense, but it's a lot easier for you guys to test this than it is for us. We have to look for the right opponents and finagle hoping to find the right circumstances, then also be Johnny Quick Fingers on the screenshot--but then also have to do a bunch of other battles to find out what normal damage is without any buffs or debuffs.
Now, if you're saying that you've tested it and it looks fine to you and you want us to send screenshots when it isn't fine, that's totally understandable and great and we can. But we can't tell if it was run a couple times on your end from that post.
Did you read his post? Its implying that the OP might've missed other factors that's causing him to do less damage.
I've seen a lot of users not realize these sorts of things (other toons and their kits and the interaction between all the toons on the field). It could be a defense up buff, it could be a reinforcement ability or a passive unique of another ship causing the decreased damage.
For example, Geonosian Spy does +50% bonus damage against buff enemies. So when you attack Sun Fac (without a buff on Geo Spy) while he's not taunting and Sun Fac when he's taunting (he's buffed) it might do a different damage.
Geo spy grants +10% offense for each active geo ally. It could be that before having offense up/down there were 3 Geos and after having both status buffs, there are less geos on the field
We won't know what's really going on unless we can see a picture of the damage before and after the offense up/down debuff on the same toon by the same toon. He's trying to help out OP here for once, while implying that their testing showed no difference in damage dealt
1. I don't fight against Geo line-ups.
2. I mainly do mirror matches against other Thrawn leads with Tie Advanced, Biggs, and a TF or Tie Slicer out front.
3. Defense up isn't present when I'm doing this (I've tried against Tie Advanced, Biggs, Boba, etc.) It isn't crit immunity either.
4. I see my crits from Phantom with Offense up at 77K damage. With no offense up 52K-ish. With offense down 26-32K damage. With offense up AND offense down, 30-32K damage.
5. I don't have video to use because I don't have a phone that can do that. I don't feel like putting my game on my PC.
6. Maybe the game changers can take a look at it and give it a shot? Oh, wait.....
I appreciate the discussion here though! Thanks for providing input all.
if Thrawn is doing the heal buff/debuff thing in your playing, defense up is present.
Thrawn gives defense up to tanks.
You also need to look at what abilites they are using for attacks.
phantom basic is ~23k maxed with no boosts special is ~46k maxed with no boosts
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
This happens to me. Vader, phantom ghost fo tie all do less damage with both off up and down applied then without it. Here's a pic with vader attack with both offense up and down. Usually does way more with the off up and down
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
This happens to me. Vader, phantom ghost fo tie all do less damage with both off up and down applied then without it. I made a quick video. But it wont let me upload it to here. Any ideas?
Theres the video. It's a quick video. Just trying to show the difference in the damage done. If I need to make a better one with attacking the same ship without the buffs and with them then I can do that later.
At the 2 second mark opposing Vader's TIE does 21k to your Biggs without offense up and Offense down
At the 57 second mark opposing Vader's TIE does 21k to your Biggs with Offense up and Offense down buffs
Theres the video. It's a quick video. Just trying to show the difference in the damage done. If I need to make a better one with attacking the same ship without the buffs and with them then I can do that later.
let's math this thing!
Maxed Vader basic is ~34k before armor mitigation
Maxed Biggs has 34% armor
34k x (1-0.34) = ~22k damage
21k is close
maxed Boba has 26% armor
34k x (1-0.26) = ~25k damage
the 23k in below image is most likely with in the damage variance
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
This happens to me. Vader, phantom ghost fo tie all do less damage with both off up and down applied then without it. Here's a pic with vader attack with both offense up and down. Usually does way more with the off up and down
Replies
*Cough cough, nod nod, wink wink*
Take the case of Buffed Han vs Traya Lead. His 2nd shot has in built offense Down (-50%) and Traya gives another offense down (-50%). True Multiplicative will result in Han dealing 1 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25. He is however dealing 1 - 0.5 - 0.5 = 0.
Evidence in link.
https://answers.ea.com/t5/Bug-Reports/Darth-Traya-damage-bug/m-p/6918986/highlight/true#M15662
And confirmed by Dev statement:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6l0p1i/comment/djtlipk
That is a question worth an answer from the devs. When are bonus effects calculated versus the base value and when against the current value of a stat. With mods we see that all bonuses are added to the base value of the stats. But in a battle they might use a more complex system that takes into account which status effect was applied first.
Currently it is very hard to judge from doing battles if the mechanics work as the according descriptions say. It would be a start to know how bonuses from status effects are calculated in a battle. And during battles a pop up box would be nice: one that shows the most important current stat values of a character.
My bet is whichever buff/debuff was applied first is the one that gets counted first.
Turn 1 you have normal offense.
Turn 2 you get offense down, putting you at 50%.
Turn 3 you get offense up, putting you at 75%.
Turn 4 offense down fades and you’re at 150%.
The sources of offense down are faster than offense up (Tarkin’s special starts on cooldown, otherwise it’d be easy to test) so that would make sense.
The dev's have answered this previously. opposites should cancel out.
If someone has screen shot or video we could really break down the math.
Could also be the way the buffs interact with unique bonuses applied
It was a joke.
Anyway, while everyone is trying to figure out what could cause this behaviour, i'm still doubting toons/ships actually do less damage with both off up and down than without any (de)buffs.
As mentioned above, Offense Up and Offense Down should cancel each other out and provide NO net change to your damage if you have both. Does anyone have a screenshot or video that we can take a look at? It might help determining what's happening here.
I'm glad to know that is the case!
I encounter this issue in Fleet arena when myself and the opposing team are both using maxed out Chimaera. I’ll use the ability to regain health and offense up while applying offense down on the enemy fleet, and they will do the same. We both end up with offense up and down with both teams doing damage as if we only had offense down applied. That’s honestly the only scenario I’ve had this happen to me.
Have you ever noticed it happen when facing a Tarkin capital ship with the enemy getting Offense up and then you using Thrawns heal/buff ability?
Honestly I can’t remember, I’m always top 20 in my arena shard and it’s nothing but thrawn . If I did encounter this before everyone shifted to Thrawn, I wouldn’t remember .
I mean no offense, but it's a lot easier for you guys to test this than it is for us. We have to look for the right opponents and finagle hoping to find the right circumstances, then also be Johnny Quick Fingers on the screenshot--but then also have to do a bunch of other battles to find out what normal damage is without any buffs or debuffs.
Now, if you're saying that you've tested it and it looks fine to you and you want us to send screenshots when it isn't fine, that's totally understandable and great and we can. But we can't tell if it was run a couple times on your end from that post.
I've seen a lot of users not realize these sorts of things (other toons and their kits and the interaction between all the toons on the field). It could be a defense up buff, it could be a reinforcement ability or a passive unique of another ship causing the decreased damage.
For example, Geonosian Spy does +50% bonus damage against buff enemies. So when you attack Sun Fac (without a buff on Geo Spy) while he's not taunting and Sun Fac when he's taunting (he's buffed) it might do a different damage.
Geo spy grants +10% offense for each active geo ally. It could be that before having offense up/down there were 3 Geos and after having both status buffs, there are less geos on the field
We won't know what's really going on unless we can see a picture of the damage before and after the offense up/down debuff on the same toon by the same toon. He's trying to help out OP here for once, while implying that their testing showed no difference in damage dealt
1. I don't fight against Geo line-ups.
2. I mainly do mirror matches against other Thrawn leads with Tie Advanced, Biggs, and a TF or Tie Slicer out front.
3. Defense up isn't present when I'm doing this (I've tried against Tie Advanced, Biggs, Boba, etc.) It isn't crit immunity either.
4. I see my crits from Phantom with Offense up at 77K damage. With no offense up 52K-ish. With offense down 26-32K damage. With offense up AND offense down, 30-32K damage.
5. I don't have video to use because I don't have a phone that can do that. I don't feel like putting my game on my PC.
6. Maybe the game changers can take a look at it and give it a shot? Oh, wait.....
I appreciate the discussion here though! Thanks for providing input all.
if Thrawn is doing the heal buff/debuff thing in your playing, defense up is present.
Thrawn gives defense up to tanks.
You also need to look at what abilites they are using for attacks.
phantom basic is ~23k maxed with no boosts special is ~46k maxed with no boosts
This happens to me. Vader, phantom ghost fo tie all do less damage with both off up and down applied then without it. Here's a pic with vader attack with both offense up and down. Usually does way more with the off up and down
Theres the video. It's a quick video. Just trying to show the difference in the damage done. If I need to make a better one with attacking the same ship without the buffs and with them then I can do that later.
At the 57 second mark opposing Vader's TIE does 21k to your Biggs with Offense up and Offense down buffs
let's math this thing!
Maxed Vader basic is ~34k before armor mitigation
Maxed Biggs has 34% armor
34k x (1-0.34) = ~22k damage
21k is close
maxed Boba has 26% armor
34k x (1-0.26) = ~25k damage
the 23k in below image is most likely with in the damage variance