Grey class characters

Laviscious · July 12, 2018 4:23AM

With the introduction of the new faction old republic this opens a few blurred lines in way of Jedi sith or bit of both !
Will u decide to make eg Reven or barriss something of a dual class or an entirely new class as I suggest here “GREY” ?

Laviscious · July 12, 2018 4:24AM

Or even better get both sides of the force for those particular characters ? My votes for this but I’m happy either way

Arbitrator · July 20, 2018 1:27AM

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Bastila · July 20, 2018 6:00AM

Bastila Shan also should be in this Grey/Balanced class if it ever happens. It would be nice to see something more than just Light/Dark side factions. Don't know if we ever see Grey factions though

StitchagoFTW · July 20, 2018 11:03AM

Give Fulcrum this Tag too as well as Ugnaught and all the Solo characters.

Laviscious · July 22, 2018 4:59AM

I think creating a dark and light side version of the toon would also be acceptable and at the same time it will make the business more money and we get x2 the opportunity to go nuts with both sides of the force with the really good toons that have lost their way to the lightside or darkside

YaeVizsla · July 22, 2018 6:30AM

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

FailingCrab · July 22, 2018 7:20AM

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

...

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

I completely agree with this. If it comes to a choice between rigid interpretation of the lore and a well-balanced game, I'd pick the game every day. Literally everyone has shades of grey within their morality. Except Obi Wan.

YaeVizsla · July 22, 2018 7:25AM

FailingCrab wrote: »

Literally everyone has shades of grey within their morality. Except Obi Wan.

Whose morality is entirely shades of gray. From a certain point of view.

Arbitrator · July 22, 2018 10:11AM

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

FailingCrab · July 22, 2018 1:32PM

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

jejuzang · July 22, 2018 1:39PM

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

Arbitrator · July 22, 2018 2:58PM

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did. The Emperor is defeated around the same time you face Vaylin. Or so we think...

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

jejuzang · July 22, 2018 3:04PM

Arbitrator wrote: »

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did.

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

No. He faced the emperor twice. Thats how he and malak turned to the dark the first time. Pretty important detail to miss. He got mind dominated(forced) into the dark side by Vitiate.

Arbitrator · July 22, 2018 3:25PM

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did.

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

No. He faced the emperor twice. Thats how he and malak turned to the dark the first time. Pretty important detail to miss. He got mind dominated(forced) into the dark side by Vitiate.

He sent them out as servants to find the Star Forge but they broke free from his control and decided to use it for themselves. He never sent them to destroy the Republic he sent them out to find the Star Forge. Revan and Malak broke free from his control, and decided to use Star forge for themselves to unify everyone against the Sith Empire. Revan and Malak brought their war on the Jedi and Republic themselves. Revan embraced the dark side, of his own accord.

jejuzang · July 22, 2018 3:36PM

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did.

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

No. He faced the emperor twice. Thats how he and malak turned to the dark the first time. Pretty important detail to miss. He got mind dominated(forced) into the dark side by Vitiate.

He sent them out as servants to find the Star Forge but they broke free from his control and decided to use it for themselves. He never sent them to destroy the Republic he sent them out to find the Star Forge. Revan and Malak broke free from his control, and decided to use Star forge for themselves to unify everyone against the Sith Empire. Revan and Malak brought their war on the Jedi and Republic themselves. Revan embraced the dark side, of his own accord.

Nope. Are you just googling this stuff and copying and pasting or are you speaking from playing/reading the source material?

Theres a reason why Revan went to the dark side, he was forced, i.e not a choice. In fact as soon as he remembered what the emporer had done he left to go fight him. Revan always embraced the light/greyish side of the force similar to Jolee Bindo.

I suggest you go back and replay the games and reread the source material. You have got a pretty good general grasp but are missing alot of key details in the timeline.

Arbitrator · July 22, 2018 4:52PM

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did.

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

No. He faced the emperor twice. Thats how he and malak turned to the dark the first time. Pretty important detail to miss. He got mind dominated(forced) into the dark side by Vitiate.

He sent them out as servants to find the Star Forge but they broke free from his control and decided to use it for themselves. He never sent them to destroy the Republic he sent them out to find the Star Forge. Revan and Malak broke free from his control, and decided to use Star forge for themselves to unify everyone against the Sith Empire. Revan and Malak brought their war on the Jedi and Republic themselves. Revan embraced the dark side, of his own accord.

Nope. Are you just googling this stuff and copying and pasting or are you speaking from playing/reading the source material?

Theres a reason why Revan went to the dark side, he was forced, i.e not a choice. In fact as soon as he remembered what the emporer had done he left to go fight him. Revan always embraced the light/greyish side of the force similar to Jolee Bindo.

I suggest you go back and replay the games and reread the source material. You have got a pretty good general grasp but are missing alot of key details in the timeline.

From playing KOTOR I and II, playing SWTOR since Launch and beat every part of the game so far with all 16 advanced classes, AND primarily the Revan novel which is the third book in a 4 part series about the Old Republic. Fatal Alliance, Decieved, Revan, and Annihilation are the books.

Please define the “key details” that I am missing. I gave you a “short” summary even though it was quite long because I didn’t want to write a novel lol. Everything I stated is fact.

Let’s look at the key points:

Revan was originally a Jedi Knight in the Old Republic.
True.

Revan was fed up with the Jedi Council’s inaction during the Mandalorian Wars so he began to lead the armies of the Republic against the Mandalorians. Malak shared similar ideals and joined him.
True.

Revan slaughtered the Mandalorians at a great cost of lives but he eventually defeated them and won the war, even earning the respect of the Mandalorians for his actions.
True.

Revan and Malak then went out into Unknown Regions of space searching for what they believed to be another presence that started the war to begin with.
True.

Revan and Malak return from Unknown Regions, hellbent on finding the Star Forge. They were sent by the Sith Emperor to do so.
True.

They find the Star Forge, break free from the Emperor’s Control, and decide to use it for themselves to unite the galaxy against the coming threat of the Sith Empire. In doing so, they fought the Republic and Jedi who would try to stop them.
True.

Bastila and a Jedi strike team board Revan’s ship as a last ditch effort to take him down, Malak sees opportunity and fires upon ship, which knocks Revan unconscious out. Jedi take him captive then erase his memories so he “turns” back to the light.
True.

Revan eventually regains his memories over time and upon battling Malak, his memories are restored. He defeats Malak and destroys Star Forge.
True.

He then heads back out into Unknown Regions to face the Emperor, where Meetra Surik is killed by Lord Scourge (who is trying to bide time and stay on the Emperor’s good side until the “Hero of Tython” comes along because Scourge thinks the Hero of Tython is the one who will defeat the Emperor) and Revan is captured, tortured, and his mind is probed for 300 years.
True.

He is freed from his stasis by Hero of Tython and then Revan sets out to gather an army to take on the Emperor. Before it can happen, he is killed by one of Darth Malgus’ strike teams.
True.

His light side and dark side halves split, and his dark side manifests itself into a physical form, Revan Reborn, that required both the Republic and the Sith Empire joining forces to defeat him and his Revanite loyalists who were willing to do whatever was necessary to defeat the Sith Emperor, no matter the cost.
True.

Most of this can be verified from reading the novel, Revan. Some of the later stuff is straight from Shadow of Revan expansion in SWTOR.

Arbitrator · July 22, 2018 4:55PM

suchiuomizu wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

If we include Legends material Luke isn't quite as pure light as you suggest.

True, but I don’t think they will use any “legends” Luke when they have a lot of “canon” Luke to go off of. It’s the heroes that don’t have a lot of “canon” where they will use “legends” stuff.

Even though, I WISH they would use Legends Luke instead of the pitiful “canon” examples of Luke we have in The Last Jedi...

jejuzang · July 22, 2018 6:17PM

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did.

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

No. He faced the emperor twice. Thats how he and malak turned to the dark the first time. Pretty important detail to miss. He got mind dominated(forced) into the dark side by Vitiate.

He sent them out as servants to find the Star Forge but they broke free from his control and decided to use it for themselves. He never sent them to destroy the Republic he sent them out to find the Star Forge. Revan and Malak broke free from his control, and decided to use Star forge for themselves to unify everyone against the Sith Empire. Revan and Malak brought their war on the Jedi and Republic themselves. Revan embraced the dark side, of his own accord.

Nope. Are you just googling this stuff and copying and pasting or are you speaking from playing/reading the source material?

Theres a reason why Revan went to the dark side, he was forced, i.e not a choice. In fact as soon as he remembered what the emporer had done he left to go fight him. Revan always embraced the light/greyish side of the force similar to Jolee Bindo.

I suggest you go back and replay the games and reread the source material. You have got a pretty good general grasp but are missing alot of key details in the timeline.

From playing KOTOR I and II, playing SWTOR since Launch and beat every part of the game so far with all 16 advanced classes, AND primarily the Revan novel which is the third book in a 4 part series about the Old Republic. Fatal Alliance, Decieved, Revan, and Annihilation are the books.

Please define the “key details” that I am missing. I gave you a “short” summary even though it was quite long because I didn’t want to write a novel lol. Everything I stated is fact.

Let’s look at the key points:

Revan was originally a Jedi Knight in the Old Republic.
True.

Revan was fed up with the Jedi Council’s inaction during the Mandalorian Wars so he began to lead the armies of the Republic against the Mandalorians. Malak shared similar ideals and joined him.
True.

Revan slaughtered the Mandalorians at a great cost of lives but he eventually defeated them and won the war, even earning the respect of the Mandalorians for his actions.
True.

Revan and Malak then went out into Unknown Regions of space searching for what they believed to be another presence that started the war to begin with.
True.

Revan and Malak return from Unknown Regions, hellbent on finding the Star Forge. They were sent by the Sith Emperor to do so.
True.

They find the Star Forge, break free from the Emperor’s Control, and decide to use it for themselves to unite the galaxy against the coming threat of the Sith Empire. In doing so, they fought the Republic and Jedi who would try to stop them.
True.

Bastila and a Jedi strike team board Revan’s ship as a last ditch effort to take him down, Malak sees opportunity and fires upon ship, which knocks Revan unconscious out. Jedi take him captive then erase his memories so he “turns” back to the light.
True.

Revan eventually regains his memories over time and upon battling Malak, his memories are restored. He defeats Malak and destroys Star Forge.
True.

He then heads back out into Unknown Regions to face the Emperor, where Meetra Surik is killed by Lord Scourge (who is trying to bide time and stay on the Emperor’s good side until the “Hero of Tython” comes along because Scourge thinks the Hero of Tython is the one who will defeat the Emperor) and Revan is captured, tortured, and his mind is probed for 300 years.
True.

He is freed from his stasis by Hero of Tython and then Revan sets out to gather an army to take on the Emperor. Before it can happen, he is killed by one of Darth Malgus’ strike teams.
True.

His light side and dark side halves split, and his dark side manifests itself into a physical form, Revan Reborn, that required both the Republic and the Sith Empire joining forces to defeat him and his Revanite loyalists who were willing to do whatever was necessary to defeat the Sith Emperor, no matter the cost.
True.

Most of this can be verified from reading the novel, Revan. Some of the later stuff is straight from Shadow of Revan expansion in SWTOR.

They never broke free of the emperors control

YaeVizsla · July 22, 2018 7:31PM

Definitely overcomplicating things.

suchiuomizu wrote: »

If we include Legends material Luke isn't quite as pure light as you suggest.

Like the time Luke joined the Sith.

Arbitrator · July 22, 2018 10:16PM

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did.

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

No. He faced the emperor twice. Thats how he and malak turned to the dark the first time. Pretty important detail to miss. He got mind dominated(forced) into the dark side by Vitiate.

He sent them out as servants to find the Star Forge but they broke free from his control and decided to use it for themselves. He never sent them to destroy the Republic he sent them out to find the Star Forge. Revan and Malak broke free from his control, and decided to use Star forge for themselves to unify everyone against the Sith Empire. Revan and Malak brought their war on the Jedi and Republic themselves. Revan embraced the dark side, of his own accord.

Nope. Are you just googling this stuff and copying and pasting or are you speaking from playing/reading the source material?

Theres a reason why Revan went to the dark side, he was forced, i.e not a choice. In fact as soon as he remembered what the emporer had done he left to go fight him. Revan always embraced the light/greyish side of the force similar to Jolee Bindo.

I suggest you go back and replay the games and reread the source material. You have got a pretty good general grasp but are missing alot of key details in the timeline.

From playing KOTOR I and II, playing SWTOR since Launch and beat every part of the game so far with all 16 advanced classes, AND primarily the Revan novel which is the third book in a 4 part series about the Old Republic. Fatal Alliance, Decieved, Revan, and Annihilation are the books.

Please define the “key details” that I am missing. I gave you a “short” summary even though it was quite long because I didn’t want to write a novel lol. Everything I stated is fact.

Let’s look at the key points:

Revan was originally a Jedi Knight in the Old Republic.
True.

Revan was fed up with the Jedi Council’s inaction during the Mandalorian Wars so he began to lead the armies of the Republic against the Mandalorians. Malak shared similar ideals and joined him.
True.

Revan slaughtered the Mandalorians at a great cost of lives but he eventually defeated them and won the war, even earning the respect of the Mandalorians for his actions.
True.

Revan and Malak then went out into Unknown Regions of space searching for what they believed to be another presence that started the war to begin with.
True.

Revan and Malak return from Unknown Regions, hellbent on finding the Star Forge. They were sent by the Sith Emperor to do so.
True.

They find the Star Forge, break free from the Emperor’s Control, and decide to use it for themselves to unite the galaxy against the coming threat of the Sith Empire. In doing so, they fought the Republic and Jedi who would try to stop them.
True.

Bastila and a Jedi strike team board Revan’s ship as a last ditch effort to take him down, Malak sees opportunity and fires upon ship, which knocks Revan unconscious out. Jedi take him captive then erase his memories so he “turns” back to the light.
True.

Revan eventually regains his memories over time and upon battling Malak, his memories are restored. He defeats Malak and destroys Star Forge.
True.

He then heads back out into Unknown Regions to face the Emperor, where Meetra Surik is killed by Lord Scourge (who is trying to bide time and stay on the Emperor’s good side until the “Hero of Tython” comes along because Scourge thinks the Hero of Tython is the one who will defeat the Emperor) and Revan is captured, tortured, and his mind is probed for 300 years.
True.

He is freed from his stasis by Hero of Tython and then Revan sets out to gather an army to take on the Emperor. Before it can happen, he is killed by one of Darth Malgus’ strike teams.
True.

His light side and dark side halves split, and his dark side manifests itself into a physical form, Revan Reborn, that required both the Republic and the Sith Empire joining forces to defeat him and his Revanite loyalists who were willing to do whatever was necessary to defeat the Sith Emperor, no matter the cost.
True.

Most of this can be verified from reading the novel, Revan. Some of the later stuff is straight from Shadow of Revan expansion in SWTOR.

They never broke free of the emperors control

Where are you getting this from? If they hadn’t broke free from the control of the Emperor then why would the Emperor “command” Malak to fire upon Revan’s ship? It doesn’t make any sense considering the Emperor sent both Revan and Malak as servants to find the Star Forge and set the staging ground for the Sith Invasion. Why would he kill off one of his strongest servants that had the most potential to effectively complete the task which he was assigned?

The Emperor Vitiate is a lot of things, but a fool is just not one of them. He carefully planned the return of the Sith Empire, all the while to hide the fact he was building an even greater, eternal empire... Zakuul, which would transcend both the Republic and Sith. He simply underestimated the strength of Revan and Malak, who broke free from his control which slowed down his plans for the invasion of the Sith Empire.

jejuzang · July 22, 2018 10:54PM

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did.

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

No. He faced the emperor twice. Thats how he and malak turned to the dark the first time. Pretty important detail to miss. He got mind dominated(forced) into the dark side by Vitiate.

He sent them out as servants to find the Star Forge but they broke free from his control and decided to use it for themselves. He never sent them to destroy the Republic he sent them out to find the Star Forge. Revan and Malak broke free from his control, and decided to use Star forge for themselves to unify everyone against the Sith Empire. Revan and Malak brought their war on the Jedi and Republic themselves. Revan embraced the dark side, of his own accord.

Nope. Are you just googling this stuff and copying and pasting or are you speaking from playing/reading the source material?

Theres a reason why Revan went to the dark side, he was forced, i.e not a choice. In fact as soon as he remembered what the emporer had done he left to go fight him. Revan always embraced the light/greyish side of the force similar to Jolee Bindo.

I suggest you go back and replay the games and reread the source material. You have got a pretty good general grasp but are missing alot of key details in the timeline.

From playing KOTOR I and II, playing SWTOR since Launch and beat every part of the game so far with all 16 advanced classes, AND primarily the Revan novel which is the third book in a 4 part series about the Old Republic. Fatal Alliance, Decieved, Revan, and Annihilation are the books.

Please define the “key details” that I am missing. I gave you a “short” summary even though it was quite long because I didn’t want to write a novel lol. Everything I stated is fact.

Let’s look at the key points:

Revan was originally a Jedi Knight in the Old Republic.
True.

Revan was fed up with the Jedi Council’s inaction during the Mandalorian Wars so he began to lead the armies of the Republic against the Mandalorians. Malak shared similar ideals and joined him.
True.

Revan slaughtered the Mandalorians at a great cost of lives but he eventually defeated them and won the war, even earning the respect of the Mandalorians for his actions.
True.

Revan and Malak then went out into Unknown Regions of space searching for what they believed to be another presence that started the war to begin with.
True.

Revan and Malak return from Unknown Regions, hellbent on finding the Star Forge. They were sent by the Sith Emperor to do so.
True.

They find the Star Forge, break free from the Emperor’s Control, and decide to use it for themselves to unite the galaxy against the coming threat of the Sith Empire. In doing so, they fought the Republic and Jedi who would try to stop them.
True.

Bastila and a Jedi strike team board Revan’s ship as a last ditch effort to take him down, Malak sees opportunity and fires upon ship, which knocks Revan unconscious out. Jedi take him captive then erase his memories so he “turns” back to the light.
True.

Revan eventually regains his memories over time and upon battling Malak, his memories are restored. He defeats Malak and destroys Star Forge.
True.

He then heads back out into Unknown Regions to face the Emperor, where Meetra Surik is killed by Lord Scourge (who is trying to bide time and stay on the Emperor’s good side until the “Hero of Tython” comes along because Scourge thinks the Hero of Tython is the one who will defeat the Emperor) and Revan is captured, tortured, and his mind is probed for 300 years.
True.

He is freed from his stasis by Hero of Tython and then Revan sets out to gather an army to take on the Emperor. Before it can happen, he is killed by one of Darth Malgus’ strike teams.
True.

His light side and dark side halves split, and his dark side manifests itself into a physical form, Revan Reborn, that required both the Republic and the Sith Empire joining forces to defeat him and his Revanite loyalists who were willing to do whatever was necessary to defeat the Sith Emperor, no matter the cost.
True.

Most of this can be verified from reading the novel, Revan. Some of the later stuff is straight from Shadow of Revan expansion in SWTOR.

They never broke free of the emperors control

Where are you getting this from? If they hadn’t broke free from the control of the Emperor then why would the Emperor “command” Malak to fire upon Revan’s ship? It doesn’t make any sense considering the Emperor sent both Revan and Malak as servants to find the Star Forge and set the staging ground for the Sith Invasion. Why would he kill off one of his strongest servants that had the most potential to effectively complete the task which he was assigned?

The Emperor Vitiate is a lot of things, but a fool is just not one of them. He carefully planned the return of the Sith Empire, all the while to hide the fact he was building an even greater, eternal empire... Zakuul, which would transcend both the Republic and Sith. He simply underestimated the strength of Revan and Malak, who broke free from his control which slowed down his plans for the invasion of the Sith Empire.

Sounds like your insinuating that they broke free. Malak was dumb and power hungry and wanted control of the rebuilt empire from Revan. In fact thats stated outright in the source material. Malak was just being a sith. Rather than have me prove where it is that says they broke away from his control. Cant change the narrative because thats how you felt it meant.

Arbitrator · July 22, 2018 11:13PM

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did.

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

No. He faced the emperor twice. Thats how he and malak turned to the dark the first time. Pretty important detail to miss. He got mind dominated(forced) into the dark side by Vitiate.

He sent them out as servants to find the Star Forge but they broke free from his control and decided to use it for themselves. He never sent them to destroy the Republic he sent them out to find the Star Forge. Revan and Malak broke free from his control, and decided to use Star forge for themselves to unify everyone against the Sith Empire. Revan and Malak brought their war on the Jedi and Republic themselves. Revan embraced the dark side, of his own accord.

Nope. Are you just googling this stuff and copying and pasting or are you speaking from playing/reading the source material?

Theres a reason why Revan went to the dark side, he was forced, i.e not a choice. In fact as soon as he remembered what the emporer had done he left to go fight him. Revan always embraced the light/greyish side of the force similar to Jolee Bindo.

I suggest you go back and replay the games and reread the source material. You have got a pretty good general grasp but are missing alot of key details in the timeline.

From playing KOTOR I and II, playing SWTOR since Launch and beat every part of the game so far with all 16 advanced classes, AND primarily the Revan novel which is the third book in a 4 part series about the Old Republic. Fatal Alliance, Decieved, Revan, and Annihilation are the books.

Please define the “key details” that I am missing. I gave you a “short” summary even though it was quite long because I didn’t want to write a novel lol. Everything I stated is fact.

Let’s look at the key points:

Revan was originally a Jedi Knight in the Old Republic.
True.

Revan was fed up with the Jedi Council’s inaction during the Mandalorian Wars so he began to lead the armies of the Republic against the Mandalorians. Malak shared similar ideals and joined him.
True.

Revan slaughtered the Mandalorians at a great cost of lives but he eventually defeated them and won the war, even earning the respect of the Mandalorians for his actions.
True.

Revan and Malak then went out into Unknown Regions of space searching for what they believed to be another presence that started the war to begin with.
True.

Revan and Malak return from Unknown Regions, hellbent on finding the Star Forge. They were sent by the Sith Emperor to do so.
True.

They find the Star Forge, break free from the Emperor’s Control, and decide to use it for themselves to unite the galaxy against the coming threat of the Sith Empire. In doing so, they fought the Republic and Jedi who would try to stop them.
True.

Bastila and a Jedi strike team board Revan’s ship as a last ditch effort to take him down, Malak sees opportunity and fires upon ship, which knocks Revan unconscious out. Jedi take him captive then erase his memories so he “turns” back to the light.
True.

Revan eventually regains his memories over time and upon battling Malak, his memories are restored. He defeats Malak and destroys Star Forge.
True.

He then heads back out into Unknown Regions to face the Emperor, where Meetra Surik is killed by Lord Scourge (who is trying to bide time and stay on the Emperor’s good side until the “Hero of Tython” comes along because Scourge thinks the Hero of Tython is the one who will defeat the Emperor) and Revan is captured, tortured, and his mind is probed for 300 years.
True.

He is freed from his stasis by Hero of Tython and then Revan sets out to gather an army to take on the Emperor. Before it can happen, he is killed by one of Darth Malgus’ strike teams.
True.

His light side and dark side halves split, and his dark side manifests itself into a physical form, Revan Reborn, that required both the Republic and the Sith Empire joining forces to defeat him and his Revanite loyalists who were willing to do whatever was necessary to defeat the Sith Emperor, no matter the cost.
True.

Most of this can be verified from reading the novel, Revan. Some of the later stuff is straight from Shadow of Revan expansion in SWTOR.

They never broke free of the emperors control

Where are you getting this from? If they hadn’t broke free from the control of the Emperor then why would the Emperor “command” Malak to fire upon Revan’s ship? It doesn’t make any sense considering the Emperor sent both Revan and Malak as servants to find the Star Forge and set the staging ground for the Sith Invasion. Why would he kill off one of his strongest servants that had the most potential to effectively complete the task which he was assigned?

The Emperor Vitiate is a lot of things, but a fool is just not one of them. He carefully planned the return of the Sith Empire, all the while to hide the fact he was building an even greater, eternal empire... Zakuul, which would transcend both the Republic and Sith. He simply underestimated the strength of Revan and Malak, who broke free from his control which slowed down his plans for the invasion of the Sith Empire.

Sounds like your insinuating that they broke free. Malak was dumb and power hungry and wanted control of the rebuilt empire from Revan. In fact thats stated outright in the source material. Malak was just being a sith. Rather than have me prove where it is that says they broke away from his control. Cant change the narrative because thats how you felt it meant.

I’m not changing the narrative lol what are you talking about. I only care about the facts, I could care less about opinions. Malak turning against Revan is NOT something the Emperor would have wanted to happen because he needed Malak and Revan to find the Star Forge and set the staging ground for the sith invasion.

If they were under the Emperor’s “control” as you suggest, then Malak would have never fired on Revan’s ship! Revan would have probably defeated Bastila and the Jedi strike team, then went on to use the Star Forge and set a staging ground for the return of the sith empire! But that’s not what happened!

What happened is, they broke free from the Emperor’s control and Revan was going to use the Star Forge to build an army that could bring the Republic into submission and unify the galaxy under his rule, that way he could take out the sith empire himself. (He doesn’t even know about the hidden Zakuul Empire)

Malak took advantage of this situation and wanted it to be under his rule, so he fired upon Revan’s ship knocking Revan unconscious and leading to his capture by the Jedi, who then erased his memories. Revan then went on to face Malak and destroy the Star Forge, and slowly regained his memories over time which caused him to go back to the unknown regions in search of the Sith Emperor.

Please cite your “source” material that says otherwise.

jejuzang · July 22, 2018 11:27PM

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did.

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

No. He faced the emperor twice. Thats how he and malak turned to the dark the first time. Pretty important detail to miss. He got mind dominated(forced) into the dark side by Vitiate.

He sent them out as servants to find the Star Forge but they broke free from his control and decided to use it for themselves. He never sent them to destroy the Republic he sent them out to find the Star Forge. Revan and Malak broke free from his control, and decided to use Star forge for themselves to unify everyone against the Sith Empire. Revan and Malak brought their war on the Jedi and Republic themselves. Revan embraced the dark side, of his own accord.

Nope. Are you just googling this stuff and copying and pasting or are you speaking from playing/reading the source material?

Theres a reason why Revan went to the dark side, he was forced, i.e not a choice. In fact as soon as he remembered what the emporer had done he left to go fight him. Revan always embraced the light/greyish side of the force similar to Jolee Bindo.

I suggest you go back and replay the games and reread the source material. You have got a pretty good general grasp but are missing alot of key details in the timeline.

From playing KOTOR I and II, playing SWTOR since Launch and beat every part of the game so far with all 16 advanced classes, AND primarily the Revan novel which is the third book in a 4 part series about the Old Republic. Fatal Alliance, Decieved, Revan, and Annihilation are the books.

Please define the “key details” that I am missing. I gave you a “short” summary even though it was quite long because I didn’t want to write a novel lol. Everything I stated is fact.

Let’s look at the key points:

Revan was originally a Jedi Knight in the Old Republic.
True.

Revan was fed up with the Jedi Council’s inaction during the Mandalorian Wars so he began to lead the armies of the Republic against the Mandalorians. Malak shared similar ideals and joined him.
True.

Revan slaughtered the Mandalorians at a great cost of lives but he eventually defeated them and won the war, even earning the respect of the Mandalorians for his actions.
True.

Revan and Malak then went out into Unknown Regions of space searching for what they believed to be another presence that started the war to begin with.
True.

Revan and Malak return from Unknown Regions, hellbent on finding the Star Forge. They were sent by the Sith Emperor to do so.
True.

They find the Star Forge, break free from the Emperor’s Control, and decide to use it for themselves to unite the galaxy against the coming threat of the Sith Empire. In doing so, they fought the Republic and Jedi who would try to stop them.
True.

Bastila and a Jedi strike team board Revan’s ship as a last ditch effort to take him down, Malak sees opportunity and fires upon ship, which knocks Revan unconscious out. Jedi take him captive then erase his memories so he “turns” back to the light.
True.

Revan eventually regains his memories over time and upon battling Malak, his memories are restored. He defeats Malak and destroys Star Forge.
True.

He then heads back out into Unknown Regions to face the Emperor, where Meetra Surik is killed by Lord Scourge (who is trying to bide time and stay on the Emperor’s good side until the “Hero of Tython” comes along because Scourge thinks the Hero of Tython is the one who will defeat the Emperor) and Revan is captured, tortured, and his mind is probed for 300 years.
True.

He is freed from his stasis by Hero of Tython and then Revan sets out to gather an army to take on the Emperor. Before it can happen, he is killed by one of Darth Malgus’ strike teams.
True.

His light side and dark side halves split, and his dark side manifests itself into a physical form, Revan Reborn, that required both the Republic and the Sith Empire joining forces to defeat him and his Revanite loyalists who were willing to do whatever was necessary to defeat the Sith Emperor, no matter the cost.
True.

Most of this can be verified from reading the novel, Revan. Some of the later stuff is straight from Shadow of Revan expansion in SWTOR.

They never broke free of the emperors control

Where are you getting this from? If they hadn’t broke free from the control of the Emperor then why would the Emperor “command” Malak to fire upon Revan’s ship? It doesn’t make any sense considering the Emperor sent both Revan and Malak as servants to find the Star Forge and set the staging ground for the Sith Invasion. Why would he kill off one of his strongest servants that had the most potential to effectively complete the task which he was assigned?

The Emperor Vitiate is a lot of things, but a fool is just not one of them. He carefully planned the return of the Sith Empire, all the while to hide the fact he was building an even greater, eternal empire... Zakuul, which would transcend both the Republic and Sith. He simply underestimated the strength of Revan and Malak, who broke free from his control which slowed down his plans for the invasion of the Sith Empire.

Sounds like your insinuating that they broke free. Malak was dumb and power hungry and wanted control of the rebuilt empire from Revan. In fact thats stated outright in the source material. Malak was just being a sith. Rather than have me prove where it is that says they broke away from his control. Cant change the narrative because thats how you felt it meant.

I’m not changing the narrative lol what are you talking about. I only care about the facts, I could care less about opinions. Malak turning against Revan is NOT something the Emperor would have wanted to happen because he needed Malak and Revan to find the Star Forge and set the staging ground for the sith invasion.

If they were under the Emperor’s “control” as you suggest, then Malak would have never fired on Revan’s ship! Revan would have probably defeated Bastila and the Jedi strike team, then went on to use the Star Forge and set a staging ground for the return of the sith empire! But that’s not what happened!

What happened is, they broke free from the Emperor’s control and Revan was going to use the Star Forge to build an army that could bring the Republic into submission and unify the galaxy under his rule, that way he could take out the sith empire himself. (He doesn’t even know about the hidden Zakuul Empire)

Malak took advantage of this situation and wanted it to be under his rule, so he fired upon Revan’s ship knocking Revan unconscious and leading to his capture by the Jedi, who then erased his memories. Revan then went on to face Malak and destroy the Star Forge, and slowly regained his memories over time which caused him to go back to the unknown regions in search of the Sith Emperor.

Please cite your “source” material that says otherwise.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Malak
As requested. Quick google search shows they never broke away from control. Malak always thought Revan was soft so he took advantage and betrayed him. It is the way of the sith after all.
Also as
Revenge for taking his jaw away.

Arbitrator · July 23, 2018 10:38AM

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

FailingCrab wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

While I understand what you are getting at and I agree that it can potentially mess up game balance, there are always work arounds. For example:

First, all existing heroes that fit better into “Grey” alignment are reclassified as such.

Secondly, you don’t necessarily have to view “Grey” heroes as being a third grouping that requires extensive development of a large character roster. Grey heroes should be viewed as heroes that can be used for either Light OR Dark teams.

Then the problem which you mentioned arises, how do you keep people from just building an all Grey team to use for both Light and Dark Territory Battles?

Simple. You introduce an “alignment meter” to all Grey heroes that requires their alignment to be maxed out either Light Side or Dark Side to be eligible to use them in endgame content such as Territory battles. Grey heroes increase their alignment meter by winning battles with either a majority Light or majority Dark team.

Once their alignment is maxed out with Light or Dark, they become eligible to use for that respective side in endgame content such as Territory Battles.

I'm not sure about this, it seems like you're adding a whole new layer of unneeded complexity.

It’s not very complex at all. All of the KOTOR games had an alignment meter for Light Side/Dark Side and it would would work pretty much the same way.

It allows CG to add neutral characters without picking a side, players then choose what side they want their “grey” heroes to play on so they farm the alignment which in turn costs energy. Grey heroes can then have “unique’s” that unlock based off of alignment, so then CG can balance Grey heroes in regards to both Light and Dark Side factions without full “Grey” teams becoming the most efficient teams.

jejuzang wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Yes I’ve been thinking this myself.

Characters like Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan are obviously light side.

Characters like Darth Vader, Sidious, and Darth Maul are obviously dark side.

Then you have characters like Revan who embraced both the teachings of the light and the dark.

Characters like HK-47 who wasn’t necessarily “dark” but followed whatever orders were given to him by Revan. Characters like Jolee who was “neutral” but knew the ways of the Jedi. Even Lando isn’t really a “light side” character. He did what was best for him to ensure his own survival. Han Solo technically wasn’t a “light side” character either. Everything he did to help the rebellion was because he thought he was going to get something out of it. He was a scoundrel.

They should make Light Side, Dark Side, and Neutral. Maybe even call it “Balanced”.

Revan never "embraced" the dark side. People seem to not understand this. He was forced into the dark and as soon as he wasnt forced anymore he immediately went back to the light.

His teacher Kreia/Traya did however teach him grey teachings

ATTENTION: SPOILER’S for those who haven’t read the Revan novel or played KOTOR I, II, and SWTOR.

What you are saying is false. This is going to be a short summary of everything that happened: After the Mandalorian Wars, Revan DID embrace the dark side on his own accord after learning about the Star Forge. He was going to make his own Empire to overthrow the current Republic because he felt that they were weak and would not be able to wipe out the real Sith Empire that he had seen. He knew how powerful the true Sith Emperor really was and he wanted to unite everyone under one ruler so that they could wipe out the real sith empire. He embraced both the light and dark sides of the force which is why he is considered a “balanced” character.

When Revan and Malak returned from deep space, they were winning the fight against the Republic but Bastila Shan and a group of other Jedi stormed his ship, where his “apprentice” Malak saw opportunity and fired upon Revan’s ship. The Jedi took him prisoner and used the force to wipe his memories. Then he “came back” to the light even though it wasn’t willingly and he went on to fight and defeat Malak all the while regaining his memories.

Revan then went on to face the Sith Emperor and was betrayed by Lord Scourge, of the true Sith species when he went to attack the Emperor. So the Emperor attacked Revan then locked him up for 300 years while the Emperor “Vitiate” probed Revan’s mind about how vulnerable the Republic was, their secrets, and if it was a good time for the Sith to return.

This was the only thing that kept the Emperor from wiping out the Old Republic because the Emperor didn’t know how strong or weak the Republic was. Revan influenced the Emperor’s mind with force persuade making the Emperor believe that the Republic was stronger than they really were, which bought time for the Republic to rebuild.

Eventually, the Sith return and a war breaks out. A whole bunch of stuff takes place but long story short, Emperor Vitiate eventually gets “defeated” by a Jedi Knight (Hero of Tython) who freed Revan from his stasis. Revan gets killed shortly after the Hero of Tython frees him but you don’t find this out till later on in the Shadow of Revan expansion for SWTOR. The Sith Emperor actually survives and the “Emperor” the Jedi Knight killed is actually just a vessel the Emperor was using.

Emperor Valkorion which is actually Vitiate, has been making a new empire the whole time the Sith Empire and Old Republic were fighting, and the Sith Empire was just his means of distracting the Old Republic from finding out about his new empire, Zakuul.

Revan didn’t know what the Emperors plans were yet but upon Revan’s death, Revan’s Light half became a Force Ghost and Revan’s Dark half became a physical manifestation that gathered Revanites and loyalists to his cause. Revan’s Dark manifestion, Revan Reborn, was hellbent on stopping the Emperor but he was ultimately defeated by both the Old Republic and Sith Empire who had to join forces just to stop Revan. After they defeat him, the emperor completes his ritual then the Zakuul Empire comes out of nowhere and destroys most of the Republic and Sith Empire.

The Old Republic and Sith Empire have to join forces to fight back against the Zakuul Empire, which is led into battle by the Emperors sons Arcann and Thexan who are beings who have transcended light and dark, and they use both sides of the force. Eventually, The “Outlander”, which is the character you play in swtor, gets captured with Darth Marr, and Arcann strikes down his father, the emperor, but the emperor doesn’t die and becomes one with your mind.

Eventually you are rescued and you wind up defeating Arcann. Arcann is redeemed and joins your side (or you can kill him in the game) but his sister Vaylin takes control of the throne and you wind up having to defeat her too. Thexan was cut down by Arcann in a fit of rage earlier in the story because Arcann didn’t like the way their father was never proud of anything they did.

TL;DR Revan embraced both the light and dark sides of the force willingly.

No. He faced the emperor twice. Thats how he and malak turned to the dark the first time. Pretty important detail to miss. He got mind dominated(forced) into the dark side by Vitiate.

He sent them out as servants to find the Star Forge but they broke free from his control and decided to use it for themselves. He never sent them to destroy the Republic he sent them out to find the Star Forge. Revan and Malak broke free from his control, and decided to use Star forge for themselves to unify everyone against the Sith Empire. Revan and Malak brought their war on the Jedi and Republic themselves. Revan embraced the dark side, of his own accord.

Nope. Are you just googling this stuff and copying and pasting or are you speaking from playing/reading the source material?

Theres a reason why Revan went to the dark side, he was forced, i.e not a choice. In fact as soon as he remembered what the emporer had done he left to go fight him. Revan always embraced the light/greyish side of the force similar to Jolee Bindo.

I suggest you go back and replay the games and reread the source material. You have got a pretty good general grasp but are missing alot of key details in the timeline.

From playing KOTOR I and II, playing SWTOR since Launch and beat every part of the game so far with all 16 advanced classes, AND primarily the Revan novel which is the third book in a 4 part series about the Old Republic. Fatal Alliance, Decieved, Revan, and Annihilation are the books.

Please define the “key details” that I am missing. I gave you a “short” summary even though it was quite long because I didn’t want to write a novel lol. Everything I stated is fact.

Let’s look at the key points:

Revan was originally a Jedi Knight in the Old Republic.
True.

Revan was fed up with the Jedi Council’s inaction during the Mandalorian Wars so he began to lead the armies of the Republic against the Mandalorians. Malak shared similar ideals and joined him.
True.

Revan slaughtered the Mandalorians at a great cost of lives but he eventually defeated them and won the war, even earning the respect of the Mandalorians for his actions.
True.

Revan and Malak then went out into Unknown Regions of space searching for what they believed to be another presence that started the war to begin with.
True.

Revan and Malak return from Unknown Regions, hellbent on finding the Star Forge. They were sent by the Sith Emperor to do so.
True.

They find the Star Forge, break free from the Emperor’s Control, and decide to use it for themselves to unite the galaxy against the coming threat of the Sith Empire. In doing so, they fought the Republic and Jedi who would try to stop them.
True.

Bastila and a Jedi strike team board Revan’s ship as a last ditch effort to take him down, Malak sees opportunity and fires upon ship, which knocks Revan unconscious out. Jedi take him captive then erase his memories so he “turns” back to the light.
True.

Revan eventually regains his memories over time and upon battling Malak, his memories are restored. He defeats Malak and destroys Star Forge.
True.

He then heads back out into Unknown Regions to face the Emperor, where Meetra Surik is killed by Lord Scourge (who is trying to bide time and stay on the Emperor’s good side until the “Hero of Tython” comes along because Scourge thinks the Hero of Tython is the one who will defeat the Emperor) and Revan is captured, tortured, and his mind is probed for 300 years.
True.

He is freed from his stasis by Hero of Tython and then Revan sets out to gather an army to take on the Emperor. Before it can happen, he is killed by one of Darth Malgus’ strike teams.
True.

His light side and dark side halves split, and his dark side manifests itself into a physical form, Revan Reborn, that required both the Republic and the Sith Empire joining forces to defeat him and his Revanite loyalists who were willing to do whatever was necessary to defeat the Sith Emperor, no matter the cost.
True.

Most of this can be verified from reading the novel, Revan. Some of the later stuff is straight from Shadow of Revan expansion in SWTOR.

They never broke free of the emperors control

Where are you getting this from? If they hadn’t broke free from the control of the Emperor then why would the Emperor “command” Malak to fire upon Revan’s ship? It doesn’t make any sense considering the Emperor sent both Revan and Malak as servants to find the Star Forge and set the staging ground for the Sith Invasion. Why would he kill off one of his strongest servants that had the most potential to effectively complete the task which he was assigned?

The Emperor Vitiate is a lot of things, but a fool is just not one of them. He carefully planned the return of the Sith Empire, all the while to hide the fact he was building an even greater, eternal empire... Zakuul, which would transcend both the Republic and Sith. He simply underestimated the strength of Revan and Malak, who broke free from his control which slowed down his plans for the invasion of the Sith Empire.

Sounds like your insinuating that they broke free. Malak was dumb and power hungry and wanted control of the rebuilt empire from Revan. In fact thats stated outright in the source material. Malak was just being a sith. Rather than have me prove where it is that says they broke away from his control. Cant change the narrative because thats how you felt it meant.

I’m not changing the narrative lol what are you talking about. I only care about the facts, I could care less about opinions. Malak turning against Revan is NOT something the Emperor would have wanted to happen because he needed Malak and Revan to find the Star Forge and set the staging ground for the sith invasion.

If they were under the Emperor’s “control” as you suggest, then Malak would have never fired on Revan’s ship! Revan would have probably defeated Bastila and the Jedi strike team, then went on to use the Star Forge and set a staging ground for the return of the sith empire! But that’s not what happened!

What happened is, they broke free from the Emperor’s control and Revan was going to use the Star Forge to build an army that could bring the Republic into submission and unify the galaxy under his rule, that way he could take out the sith empire himself. (He doesn’t even know about the hidden Zakuul Empire)

Malak took advantage of this situation and wanted it to be under his rule, so he fired upon Revan’s ship knocking Revan unconscious and leading to his capture by the Jedi, who then erased his memories. Revan then went on to face Malak and destroy the Star Forge, and slowly regained his memories over time which caused him to go back to the unknown regions in search of the Sith Emperor.

Please cite your “source” material that says otherwise.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Malak
As requested. Quick google search shows they never broke away from control. Malak always thought Revan was soft so he took advantage and betrayed him. It is the way of the sith after all.
Also as
Revenge for taking his jaw away.

Your wiki “source” never says they were under the Emperor’s control. In fact, it says they fell to Dark Side under his tutelage. Here’s the quote:

“As the war progressed, Malak became a military general and gained a reputation as a headstrong warrior who recklessly charged into danger. Malak and Revan ultimately defeated the Mandalorians in the war's final battle at Malachor V and pursued the surviving Mandalorians into the Unknown Regions. However, the two Jedi encountered the Sith Emperor of the reconstituted remnants of the ancient Sith Empire and fell to the dark side of the Force under his tutelage, becoming Sith Lords.”

Arbitrator · July 23, 2018 10:46AM

That wiki is inaccurate also, Revan was told by Mandalore the Ultimate before he died that the Sith had approached him to start the war, that’s why Revan and Malak went into the Unknown Region’s in search of the being behind the war. It wasn’t to “chase down the remaining Mandalorians” because the Mandalorians were broken after Mandalore’s defeat.

Boo · July 23, 2018 4:54PM

YaeVizsla wrote: »

Lots of issues with this.

There are two ways you could impliment it.

1) Grey characters are a distinct grouping, separate from light and dark. They are unusable in light side and dark side exclusive tasks, most notably territory battles and wars. This would need a third content track to implement and balance or they'd end up mostly useless. And we already have people complaining about light side/dark side balance. To populate this new grouping, you'd have to do one of two things.

1a) Introduce a ton of new characters, requiring a prohibitive amount of development assets and time, particularly since you'd need at least enough characters at launch to populate the faction, necessitating a five character simultaneous drop.

1b) Reclassify existing characters, which means gutting some existing team for territory battles and would cause an outcry.

2) Grey characters are considered light and dark side for the purpose of requirements. This gets in the way of a lot of design elements that are meant to promote a broad roster, as this is a collection game. The light side/dark side split is the first way the game tells you to prepare multiple teams for multiple purposes. With grey, the most efficient path available becomes to make a grey team and use them for both tables. Later on, honing a single high-performance grey team gives you both a LSTB and DSTB team to field for the price of one team.

When faced with a character of dubious alignment, it works better for the structure of the game to just pick one or the other.

Not if Grey/Balanced characters in the game are rare - such as Revan.

They could be used on either LS or DS factions, TBs or TW campaigns and it wouldn't break game mechanics - it would just make it more diverse with more strategy.

I say rare characters - I don't think that ultimately applies to characters such as Han or Lando etc. But I'd definitely say Jolee Bindo - as his alignment in-game was grey and said both Jedi and Sith annoy him.

Revan for sure should be grey.

However with the new tag of Old Republic - I question why HK47 does not have this tag yet.

I also wonder (in future if more toons are released) how KOTOR toons will function as a team - as HK47 is dark and toons such as T3M4 are light (based on their red and blue alignment in KOTOR) - also how would this factor Canderous etc.

Maybe only usable in Cantina battles and TWs - but that seems quite limiting to me, vs. the potential this game has to shake a few things up a bit.

New player? Check out the new player index

Grey class characters

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