Has anyone totalled Signal Data income?
I'm looking at the incoming raid with the requirement of at least 8 new toons to r8.
Hard SD for a toon to r8 = 120. 120 * 8 = 960
Med SD for a toon to r8 = 140. 140 * 8 = 1120
Easy SD for a toon to r8 = 135. 135 * 8 = 1080
Farming time, given 3xCantina refresh/day + only using cantina energy for SD. (~18ish/day hard, 24-25ish medium, 34ish easy)
960 / 18 = 53 days
1120/ 24 = 47 days
1080/ 34 = 32 days
132 days for the signal data farming with no distractions but also no special events (like double drops).
That's quite a lot just to get the intended raid teams to max level if the raid itself lasts only 9 months. Literally half of all your SD income from farming goes straight to the raid, if 8 of the toons required for best raid scores are brand new as is the case here.
Digression:
So I'm hoping to learn that my SD income is better than just the farming + what I remember offhand. I know we get SD income from assault battles, but I can't remember how much that is per month and thus how much of a dent it's going to make in the time required.
2.5-3 months of SD income for a 9 month raid isn't unreasonable, but 4.5 months is, which is where we are without sources other than farming. (And, to be fair, some people can afford 300 crystals/day on SD farming, so if you're spending 200/day things get substantially worse.)
I'd like to look at better numbers for what we actually gain over time from all sources at 300 crystals/day for Cantina refreshes as well as at 200 / day. Once we have that, it might be that all this turns out fine, or it might be time to get a new challenge battle for Queen Amidala or, (even better) for the Gungans, to make them more useful. That challenge would come around as often as the new Jabba/Leia challenges and reward substantial amounts of SD.
Again, I'm not recommending that now, but as a community, we should probably look at the numbers and think about raid investments vs costs.
Hard SD for a toon to r8 = 120. 120 * 8 = 960
Med SD for a toon to r8 = 140. 140 * 8 = 1120
Easy SD for a toon to r8 = 135. 135 * 8 = 1080
Farming time, given 3xCantina refresh/day + only using cantina energy for SD. (~18ish/day hard, 24-25ish medium, 34ish easy)
960 / 18 = 53 days
1120/ 24 = 47 days
1080/ 34 = 32 days
132 days for the signal data farming with no distractions but also no special events (like double drops).
That's quite a lot just to get the intended raid teams to max level if the raid itself lasts only 9 months. Literally half of all your SD income from farming goes straight to the raid, if 8 of the toons required for best raid scores are brand new as is the case here.
Digression:
I wouldn't complain about this if I knew for certain that these toons were actually going to get max or near-max scores.
As is, I'd certainly like some reassurance that an r8 Gungan squad will be able to max the raid, because the gungan faction is really horribly uninteresting in the movies. The only reason to bring them up in-game is their **supposed** raid utility.
I mean, seriously, how 8 year olds imagined themselves shooting storm troopers or blowing up death stars in 1980 vs how many 8 year olds imagined themselves holding a conference to exile Jar Jar in 2000? Did Boss Nass even do anything in the battle vs the B1s? I don't remember him there. Captain Tarpals certainly was there, but it's not like he played any remotely heroic role.
The r8 for Queen Amidala, and Palawan Kenobi are definitely going to beloved characters and there's no reason to resent that or complain about resources there. New QuiGon seems redundant as he was only in one movie, so having 2 versions of him is weird, but ... okay? No excitement for a new QGJ, but no resentment there either.
But total it up with the Gungans and JarJar and that's a lot of SD just to play the raid's top level. And that assumes that you're going to be able to slot in some other GR toons on Amidala's squad, toons that you already have at r5-r8 already. GMY would be reasonable, although he wasn't present on Naboo he certainly could have been.
As is, I'd certainly like some reassurance that an r8 Gungan squad will be able to max the raid, because the gungan faction is really horribly uninteresting in the movies. The only reason to bring them up in-game is their **supposed** raid utility.
I mean, seriously, how 8 year olds imagined themselves shooting storm troopers or blowing up death stars in 1980 vs how many 8 year olds imagined themselves holding a conference to exile Jar Jar in 2000? Did Boss Nass even do anything in the battle vs the B1s? I don't remember him there. Captain Tarpals certainly was there, but it's not like he played any remotely heroic role.
The r8 for Queen Amidala, and Palawan Kenobi are definitely going to beloved characters and there's no reason to resent that or complain about resources there. New QuiGon seems redundant as he was only in one movie, so having 2 versions of him is weird, but ... okay? No excitement for a new QGJ, but no resentment there either.
But total it up with the Gungans and JarJar and that's a lot of SD just to play the raid's top level. And that assumes that you're going to be able to slot in some other GR toons on Amidala's squad, toons that you already have at r5-r8 already. GMY would be reasonable, although he wasn't present on Naboo he certainly could have been.
So I'm hoping to learn that my SD income is better than just the farming + what I remember offhand. I know we get SD income from assault battles, but I can't remember how much that is per month and thus how much of a dent it's going to make in the time required.
2.5-3 months of SD income for a 9 month raid isn't unreasonable, but 4.5 months is, which is where we are without sources other than farming. (And, to be fair, some people can afford 300 crystals/day on SD farming, so if you're spending 200/day things get substantially worse.)
I'd like to look at better numbers for what we actually gain over time from all sources at 300 crystals/day for Cantina refreshes as well as at 200 / day. Once we have that, it might be that all this turns out fine, or it might be time to get a new challenge battle for Queen Amidala or, (even better) for the Gungans, to make them more useful. That challenge would come around as often as the new Jabba/Leia challenges and reward substantial amounts of SD.
Again, I'm not recommending that now, but as a community, we should probably look at the numbers and think about raid investments vs costs.
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Replies
Why ? Genuinely curious.
Also don’t forget that if you want the gungans, you will already have 4 gungans R5 as a requirement to Jar Jar, so the raid cost is only the jump to R8 (if you really want R8). It will be fair to consider that Jar Jar also starts at R5, as I won’t see someone unlocking him without gearing him as high as his comrades.
B/c this seems to be the intent of CG. They could have made the max raid tier available to all-r7 squads. they did.
Note that I am not specifying taking 40 toons to r8 (8 attempts x 5-toon squads) or 25 toons to r8 (5 attempts with 5-toon squads, which is closer to the current 8 attempts x 3-toon squads).
There are teams that are clearly intended to be raid squads, being Naboo teams with a Naboo raid being released, plus ancillary (though not themselves definitive) statements from CG.
I am merely asking what resources are required to play the raid as intended, with the raid-specialized teams optimized for the raid. Unfortunately "optimized for the raid" includes r8.
This might be underselling things (even with Padmé, nQGJ, PK specified I have not specified her security team, since we don't know how crucial those will be to the raid squad, so we could have 10 toons intended as raid-optimized), but it's also possible that we can slot in other GR toons or go in short handed. So r8 x 8 seems a fair characterization of CG's expectations.
I am therefore attempting to compare CG's expected expenses vs. CG's expected income.
Ok then. I still think you shouldn’t make those maths in a vacuum, as people already have developed rosters (and CG knows it). Afaik, players use a different combination of teams for raids depending on what they already have available. So it seems mission impossible to truly calculate the ‘expected expenses’.
I'm sorry, how many people have Gungans, JarJar, Queen Amidala, Palawan Kenobi, and nuQGJ at relics right now?
Kinda seems like that answer is zero for at least 6 of those toons, and not much over zero for the first two Gungans.
Previous developments in rosters don't apply to the new raid toons. They're new.
Now, I completely accept that the new raid reward system gets us at least the same (I think more) rewards as we used to get for all the combined legacy raids. But... now when each new raid comes out, the teams built just for the raid don't have the same return anymore. We are instead required to make a new round of investments to get the rewards that we already invested for. This wasn't such a big deal for Krayt. The rewards were actually better (IMO) so that investment felt worthwhile. Then we have the speeders, where a bunch of other characters needed more relics, just to get back to the same rewards as before. And now Naboo, with a whole host of brand new characters to take all the way up from nothing. While speeder had the Leia reqs from nothing, you also got an awesome GL out of doing that.
This new non-cumulative raid reward system is just looking worse and worse as time goes on.
Yes, I still have functional teams, or higher functioning teams left in my roster after a raid season ends, but that is not the same as both having those higher teams, and also the cumulative rewards.
Kind of off topic, sorry Seedy.
Closer to the topic: it is strange that for all the signal data required to get good rewards in the raid, you have no signal data income from the raid rewards.
If you’re interested to calculate what’s needed for the raid and for the raid only, seems fair to consider what you would have done if the raid wasn’t in the scenery. I doubt very much end game players (by that I mean players who only go after the new stuff, which is the category you seem to be aiming at) won’t try to unlock Jar Jar, raid or not, so won’t gear a full R5 gungan team anyway. Same could apply for the jedi duo depending on how they perform outside the raid.
Now, I’m not saying your math is utterly useless. But your conclusion that 132 days of farming out of 240 is a lot is flawed because it doesn’t take into account that you’re using SD for the new characters that would get some of this SD, raid or not. And implementing that in your calculations to get a better view of what’s needed for the raid compared to what we get seems quite a challenge.
The op isn't claiming to have an unflawed calculation though. As far as I can tell it is a call to look into the numbers, so just shooting it down as flawed is a bit strong I think.
Doing a perfect calculation wont be possible as, like you say, the top % will top % whereas newer/lower spenders will have to make decisions about new characters and catchup projects. This is offering one way, not the only way to look at it.
Obviously these things are going to be variable from roster to roster but to make the math easy we're making an assumption that you can do all of those things.
Edit: to translate to the terms you used, in the graphic "White" = "Easy", "Green" = "Medium", "Blue" = "Hard"
When we were ramping up for the current raid it took me about two months to get all of my teams in order for the 17M needed for max crate. That felt pretty reasonable and I was making progress each raid.
Can we buy all available SD from Conquest and buy 20 characters shards on the same Conquest paycheck ?
I wouldn't think so, no - so you have to either buy the Conquest Pass Jr. or wait longer for the unlock. When you buy the pass though you can buy all the signal data and still have some left over for gear so in my eyes it's a fantastic value - I buy it every month.
youguysgetpaidtodoconquest?.png
My conquest paycheck comes in the same envelope as the one I get for shilling. Yours doesn't?
I usually buy no gray, no green, and all but 10 blue while also getting 20 shards and not purchasing either pass.
I'm still waiting for Kyno to send me my shilling paycheck.
Speeder bike was very player friendly as it only included five characters that weren’t out for a year plus in leia, crex, drogan, scout, and pk and obviously they all were involved in getting leia herself. Also leia was live for weeks before the raid was available.
Rebels, imps, and Ewoks also were required at various levels beyond leia and had significant utility outside the raid.
The Naboo raid has 6 new marquees, a conquest and a legendary heroes. Neither QA or jar jar is expected to be remotely as powerful as leia and the gungans are certainly going to be a love them or hate them faction.
For the entirety of the raid, I think the investment is on the high side and the ROI is on the low end. This is magnified by speeder bike being the opposite.
Now a lot of this can be mitigated by what other units are picked to be eligible, exactly when the raid drops, and bonus drops to help farm the new marquees. If padme, jka, gas, gk, and jmk are raid eligible and the raid doesn’t actually drop until mid august and each gungan plus new qgj and kenobi get a bonus drop weekend then it’s a different story.
Obviously all of the above won’t happen but the point is it’s too early to decide just how bad the requirements are for the raid.
Green is 10 from assault battles? Not 6?
I do believe it’s 6 too.
Pretty sure from each of CT2 and CT3 you get 5 white, 5 green, 3 blue - if I'm wrong I can update the graphic. I was going off of memory on those so if someone has a screenshot of the rewards I can make adjustments.
https://swgoh.wiki/wiki/Ground_War
It’s wiki so won’t say it’s definitive but it backs my recall
You were right - I went and found a screenshot - it's updated. Sorry about that, and thanks for the catch.
No, no. It's on topic. I'm exploring what we're asked to invest for the raid, and you were doing that, even if you were exploring a bit of a different side of that calculation than SD. Thanks for your contribution.
@Starslayer @Profit
Thanks for your contributions as well. Profit is right in saying,
Right. I was never saying that I had the final calculation at 132 days. I specifically said that it ignored a bunch of income and I was wondering how much that other income changed that calculation.
And yes, Starslayer, you're right that I'm endgame in the sense that I don't have any old toons to farm or gear anymore, not that are priorities anyway. I've got about 30 toons at g12 that I will slowly transition to r1, but none of them are important in any sense. Maybe 5 or 6 of them are useful, but I'm not hurting because I lack them. They'll get to relics first, but I'm not worried about exactly when.
@Drathuk916
Right. It's hard to say right now, of course, but GL Leia was a highly requested (and much beloved) character from the movies. Previous incarnations of Leia had been vastly underwhelming and Endor was a place where she had a central part of the entire battle from planning to execution, and without her raid on the shield generator blowing up the 2nd Death Star wouldn't have been possible.
So you get a fan favourite AND a GL (which is better, to me anyway, then an iconic character and GL that you don't love, like Jabba whom we can appreciate as a character but none of us spent out childhoods hoping we'd grow up to be) plus a whole lot of legacy toons, some of which people had at high relics for RotE platoons.
With 5-toon squads (it looks like) and 8 new toons (possibly 10, but let's not be hasty) that are going to be required at r7 and desired at r8 for effective raid participation, it certainly has the initial appearance of being more investment for the same reward.
And the investment seems only more disproportionate given that very few people were clamouring for Gungans -- personally I'd just take them to g12+0 and leave them there out a sense of Pokemon completeness but never use them if not for the raid, the Gungans were terrible characters in the movie with no personality or development (though give them credit for art design) -- I'm going to have to hold my nose as I slap relic tiers on them. I doubt many people were holding their noses to relic up Captain Rex or GL Leia. And while some people considered Drogan a diversity hire in the worst sense of that phrase, I loved him from the start, and the effort that CG was making. And whatever you think about disability inclusion, he's still 1 toon, not 5.
So, yes. It seems like CG is making a big ask and thus my original post. I've made no final judgements, but I'll be thinking about SD budgets as well as JarJar.
I know that it came out since that the actor who played JarJar is a man of color who came up with JarJar's speech patterns on his own, and his emulation of certain patterns of Caribbean patois came from an honest love for the place and its people, but when the movie came out the hapless, subservient nature of the JarJar character combined with those speech patterns came across as shockingly racist. That taint has never left.
Honestly, when I heard the fan theory that JarJar was Darth Plagueis manipulating events while disguising his power, I loved it. It would have redeemed everything about the character. he wouldn't actually be hapless and subservient, so his adoption of the accent (or even had it been his natural voice) wouldn't be reinforcing a racist trope, but reinforcing a disguise used by the powerful.
Sadly, that was not to be, and so regardless of the actor's intent, I've just never been able to even mildly like the character. He grates on me horribly. It's possible that JarJar's inclusion is also emotionally making this seem like even a bigger ask, though I've tried very hard to think carefully through things and not let my loathing for JarJar affect my arguments.
And I'm not saying that CG could have a Naboo raid and ignore JarJar. I get it.
I'm mostly just saying that JarJar can be made as powerful as they want and he's still no GL Leia. Or Captain Rex. Or even Drogan.
What I’m challenging is your premise that you need, specifically for the raid, to gear at least 8 new toons from G1 to R8. We used SD to gear characters all year long for non-raids reasons. What should be taken into account if you wish to ‘ look at the numbers and think about raid investments vs costs’ are the gear/relic levels that you put on characters specifically to achieve a certain level in raid. For instance, every player that wish to unlock Jar Jar will need R5 gungans as prerequisites. Only the jump from R5 to R8 is ‘raid investment’, G1 to R5 is just ‘Journey Guide investment’.
So you can only really study ‘raid investment vs cost’ if you consider a specific roster, which makes it a nearly impossible task.
Still, I completely agree that the SD income would be a very interesting thing to find out.