A vast majority of top 20 teams run Nihilus because of Annihilate. My question is how does he or more importantly his Annihilate ability ever become non-meta?
Good question. I am not Top 20 and I wonder how often Annihilate is needed when meta fights meta. In my shard region most matches are over before Annihilate is available. I try to make it to Top 50 at payout time and in most cases I can use ability block or stun to slow Nihilus down and take care of him after more imminent threads are out of the way. This way I can even avoid the cooldown increase in like 50% of the matches.
Don't have nihilus in my arena squad but he sure is in most squads I face. A very versatile toon that always needs attention to make sure he doesn't run amok on you. Eventually he will fall out of the meta because better toons will be released or other counters introduced. But it seems likely he will be as long lived as King Rex
i find his cooldown increase much more useful. thats basically like SA's TM gain.
it makes the whole other team use a basic, which means, useless first round (mostly).
in a combo with SA, thats basically gives your whole team do 2 turns full of specials and tactics, while enemy team cant do nothing.
2 turns.. 10 attacks. thats finish the game. most of time i win WIHTOUT using the annihilate. both his specials are extremely useful, and i dont see any of them becoming irrelevant any time soon. his tankiness and "hard hitting" on basic (#6 damage on basics) is also what makes him a great toon. hes here to stay, but also GK for example.
tanky, debuff to buff, retribution, calling whole team to assist, all team crit immunity and annoying foresight and taunts.
There might be a counter to the CD increases one day, who knows. And some toons like DT share this, someone with more base speed could overcome nihilus or some other sick debuffs like irresistable aoe stagger. Hard to predict what power creep will create.
As for his annihilate, that will fall off if we get a more damagy/bursty meta. It's so nice because triple cleanse / chaze teams and guys like savage are super sustained and fights allow the slow nihilus to take many turns. Bursty comps like resistance shouldn't be annihilated even now. On offense ATF or chirrut are already doing a good job bursting him before he can oneshoot.
There might be a counter to the CD increases one day, who knows. And some toons like DT share this, someone with more base speed could overcome nihilus or some other sick debuffs like irresistable aoe stagger. Hard to predict what power creep will create.
As for his annihilate, that will fall off if we get a more damagy/bursty meta. It's so nice because triple cleanse / chaze teams and guys like savage are super sustained and fights allow the slow nihilus to take many turns. Bursty comps like resistance shouldn't be annihilated even now. On offense ATF or chirrut are already doing a good job bursting him before he can oneshoot.
Stagger kinda sucks. It means you need 2 sufficiently speedy toons: the first to apply stagger and the second to hit the staggered toons. That's not really a good counter to Nilly's cooldown reduce (althoug Nilly is quite slow, so you can easily get 2 toons to move before him... although you can make that significantly harder with a Sith Assassin, and you'll only need SA modded for speed as opposed to two toons modded for speed... and faster than one of the fastest toons in the game).
Imho, Nilly is here to stay for a long time. I wouldn't call him OP by himself, but he has a fantastic kit that fits in very many teams. A bit like Rex or GK.
Often he sits behind GK and Chaze but probably any two tanks would do in keeping him alive enough to land the big hits. It's not like he's squishy either...
They totally ruined game's balance with this toon, not relying upon damages to kill is breaking it.
Most toons rely upon RNG especially when it comes to really effective powers, Nihilus dispells automatically, screw CDs automatically and onehot anyone automatically without avoidance nor anything else.
Any game has rules for the sake of balance, Nihilus breaks them all.
They totally ruined game's balance with this toon, not relying upon damages to kill is breaking it.
Most toons rely upon RNG especially when it comes to really effective powers, Nihilus dispells automatically, screw CDs automatically and onehot anyone automatically without avoidance nor anything else.
Any game has rules for the sake of balance, Nihilus breaks them all.
I don´t think so because there many ways to slow him down and take him out before he can annihilate. His cooldown increase can ruin your strategy and win the battle for your opponent, his annihilate most likely just shortens a battle that is already lost. This is my experience with him so far.
Yeah. Every ability he has is great. His stats are great. He just has insanely good utility across the board. Only reason not to include him is if you're going for full synergy, R1 Rebels for example.
He's not invincible or OP I don't think, just really, REALLY useful for the vast majority of squads.
Nihilus should obviously be looked into. People claiming he's fine don't understand the dynamics of a metagame. If a card was included in 75% plus of top decks in games like Magic or Hearthstone it'd be emergency banned/nerfed. Healthy metas should be rock/paper/scissors. When a character is a part of both the meta team, the anti meta team and the anti anti meta team it is broken, and kills diversity. Added to that he is a pretty unfun character both to play and to play against. So I really hope something will be done, I don't see him leaving the meta by himself.
Dispel on basic (great when paired with GK for assist attack or for retaliate counterattacks). Only Sun Fac does that if I remember correctly.
CD increase which is basically ability block that cannot be cleansed even if opponent had 5x cleansers. Only DT has this?
And annihilate which allows you to ignore opponent's most annoying toon (Zylo/Zavage/..) until unavoidable annihilate lands. Which is unique and can be better only when on shorter CD.
Sure he will be meta - until something even better emerges. But what ?
Dispel on basic (great when paired with GK for assist attack or for retaliate counterattacks). Only Sun Fac does that if I remember correctly.
CD increase which is basically ability block that cannot be cleansed even if opponent had 5x cleansers. Only DT has this?
And annihilate which allows you to ignore opponent's most annoying toon (Zylo/Zavage/..) until unavoidable annihilate lands. Which is unique and can be better only when on shorter CD.
Sure he will be meta - until something even better emerges. But what ?
They totally ruined game's balance with this toon, not relying upon damages to kill is breaking it.
Most toons rely upon RNG especially when it comes to really effective powers, Nihilus dispells automatically, screw CDs automatically and onehot anyone automatically without avoidance nor anything else.
Any game has rules for the sake of balance, Nihilus breaks them all.
Lol and ATF/Thrawn doesn't...
I run Chaze and have NO PROBLEM with him, you shouldn't
Everyone is complaining about DN and Chaze, but I really don't understand, there is more movement at the top end of arena than ever. Maybe most people are using the same characters and we want to see more diversity at the top of the meta and that is a reasonable critique, but for a long time there were teams that could not be beat on defenses. Now, even large spenders in old and well-developed arenas are beatable and are falling further down the ladder. There is a great deal of cooperation in most of these arenas in part because of that fact, no one is unbeatable. Although that is frustrating to those who spend significant amounts on the game, I think it is a good thing for the longevity of the game itself. It leads to more people being invested and engaged because they can compete.
I don't understand all the criticism, although individual toons may be somewhat unbalanced, arena as a whole is more balanced than ever.
Most of my arena fights don't utilize DNs annihilate. Or if they do, it's on the last toon or 2. Sometimes I use it just for fun when the last guy just needs someone to blow on him to finish the battle.
I did get to use it earlier in a match today though. GK gave him retribution (along with almost everyone else), and the opposing team was using AoE attacks. Most of the opponents had a buff, so the force drain went off again on the full team. 2 force drains on 5 toons unlocked annihilate.
Most of my arena fights don't utilize DNs annihilate. Or if they do, it's on the last toon or 2. Sometimes I use it just for fun when the last guy just needs someone to blow on him to finish the battle.
I did get to use it earlier in a match today though. GK gave him retribution (along with almost everyone else), and the opposing team was using AoE attacks. Most of the opponents had a buff, so the force drain went off again on the full team. 2 force drains on 5 toons unlocked annihilate.
Mine normally do, but I fight a lot of turtle squads where its a house of cards. You can't get through until you take down one toon, then they crumble. GK(L), Chaze, Barris, DN, Or Rex(L), GK, Barris, Chaze. Until you take out GK or Barris that team is difficult to get through. Without DN it would be a lot more difficult.
Thrawn can be a good counter. The problem with Nihilus is not that you can't touch him, but usually you can't hurt him enough before GK or another taunter takes over.
With Thrawn, Fracture him and he'll sit there while you whittle down the tanks. Even better, Thrawn with your own Nihilus, when Fracture runs out, if your Nihilus still hasn't used Annihilate, then have Thrawn switch turn meter with him to not only give him protection back but get to his next turn to either use Drain Force again or Annihilate.
Unfortunately they have created toons that basically, without DN, would be almost impossible to beat. So yeah, DN will be the most powerful, and best toon for a looooooooooooooong time.
Unfortunately they have created toons that basically, without DN, would be almost impossible to beat. So yeah, DN will be the most powerful, and best toon for a looooooooooooooong time.
Name three.
It's not that toons are impossible to beat without DN, it's that he covers a wider variety of situations.
Zylo, Zavage, Baze are easily counterable with any high powered enough combination. (Fulcrum, Wiggs, a single hit from Chirrut can take out their entire health if he's built up enough, now Thrawn with his Fracture, Rex's special can take a good chunk from Zavage or Baze, heck, I can get Palp hitting for 20k on crit if you mod him for offense.) Once you take Baze out, Chirrut crumbles.
Zarriss' scariness mostly works on crit. Unfortunately, people often pair here with GK, which seems clever, but crit on Zarriss, cleans GK's taunt, and then take Zarriss out since she now has crit immunity. (Granted, this strategy is made a lot easier with DN's basic that can cleanse, but we also have Baze, B2, Ezra, QGJ that can all easily cleanse a taunt, as well.
So it's not that any of these are impossible to beat with DN; not even nearly impossible. It's that DN makes encounters with these toons easier; he helps in a wide variety of situations.
Personally, I like toons that are unique that will always have some kind of utility. Could he be non-meta? I've certainly seen plenty of teams lately that do just fine without him. Will you always be able to find a use for him if you look? I think so.
a little out of subject ; i have Zader(L) Sidious TFP Palp and Jyn Team . should i change 6* Nihiulus for Jyn
PS: also i have Zylo but Jyn is more effective than Zylo for me (need better mods for Zylo)
Short answer, yes.
If Jyn is working for you on offense, cool. I bet on defense she isn't used as well. One of the reasons DN is so good is he's simple enough the IA is using him well. Try him see how he fits.
DN has one of the most balanced kits of any new toon.
No toon is permanent, just look at QGJ, one of the most highly used toons for year 1 of the game. Slowly edged out of almost every game by other toons and only real place left is leader of a jedi team. Still useful in many areas,just not used as much as he once was.
DN has one of the most balanced kits of any new toon.
No toon is permanent, just look at QGJ, one of the most highly used toons for year 1 of the game. Slowly edged out of almost every game by other toons and only real place left is leader of a jedi team. Still useful in many areas,just not used as much as he once was.
balanced how exactly? If you compare all 129 characters with eachother, DN is not exactly average by any means.
Don't get me wrong, i have no problems with DN. He just performs alot better than pretty much every character ingame with a few exceptions who mainly depend on duo synergy or normal synergy. I'm totally fine with that though.
I do fully agree about him not being permanent, power creep will take care of that. (wich suprisingly enough i'm also fine with )
Replies
it makes the whole other team use a basic, which means, useless first round (mostly).
in a combo with SA, thats basically gives your whole team do 2 turns full of specials and tactics, while enemy team cant do nothing.
2 turns.. 10 attacks. thats finish the game. most of time i win WIHTOUT using the annihilate. both his specials are extremely useful, and i dont see any of them becoming irrelevant any time soon. his tankiness and "hard hitting" on basic (#6 damage on basics) is also what makes him a great toon. hes here to stay, but also GK for example.
tanky, debuff to buff, retribution, calling whole team to assist, all team crit immunity and annoying foresight and taunts.
As for his annihilate, that will fall off if we get a more damagy/bursty meta. It's so nice because triple cleanse / chaze teams and guys like savage are super sustained and fights allow the slow nihilus to take many turns. Bursty comps like resistance shouldn't be annihilated even now. On offense ATF or chirrut are already doing a good job bursting him before he can oneshoot.
Stagger kinda sucks. It means you need 2 sufficiently speedy toons: the first to apply stagger and the second to hit the staggered toons. That's not really a good counter to Nilly's cooldown reduce (althoug Nilly is quite slow, so you can easily get 2 toons to move before him... although you can make that significantly harder with a Sith Assassin, and you'll only need SA modded for speed as opposed to two toons modded for speed... and faster than one of the fastest toons in the game).
Imho, Nilly is here to stay for a long time. I wouldn't call him OP by himself, but he has a fantastic kit that fits in very many teams. A bit like Rex or GK.
Most toons rely upon RNG especially when it comes to really effective powers, Nihilus dispells automatically, screw CDs automatically and onehot anyone automatically without avoidance nor anything else.
Any game has rules for the sake of balance, Nihilus breaks them all.
I don´t think so because there many ways to slow him down and take him out before he can annihilate. His cooldown increase can ruin your strategy and win the battle for your opponent, his annihilate most likely just shortens a battle that is already lost. This is my experience with him so far.
And Buff Removal.
He gets you through turtle squads, he removes buffs and he increases cool downs. Swiss Army Knife.
He's not invincible or OP I don't think, just really, REALLY useful for the vast majority of squads.
CD increase which is basically ability block that cannot be cleansed even if opponent had 5x cleansers. Only DT has this?
And annihilate which allows you to ignore opponent's most annoying toon (Zylo/Zavage/..) until unavoidable annihilate lands. Which is unique and can be better only when on shorter CD.
Sure he will be meta - until something even better emerges. But what ?
CD increase which is basically ability block that cannot be cleansed even if opponent had 5x cleansers. Only DT has this?
And annihilate which allows you to ignore opponent's most annoying toon (Zylo/Zavage/..) until unavoidable annihilate lands. Which is unique and can be better only when on shorter CD.
Sure he will be meta - until something even better emerges. But what ?
Lol and ATF/Thrawn doesn't...
I run Chaze and have NO PROBLEM with him, you shouldn't
I don't understand all the criticism, although individual toons may be somewhat unbalanced, arena as a whole is more balanced than ever.
PS: also i have Zylo but Jyn is more effective than Zylo for me (need better mods for Zylo)
I did get to use it earlier in a match today though. GK gave him retribution (along with almost everyone else), and the opposing team was using AoE attacks. Most of the opponents had a buff, so the force drain went off again on the full team. 2 force drains on 5 toons unlocked annihilate.
*Key point is ticking time bomb* just hide him behind tanks(GK, Shore, Baze) now you got a Nuclear weapon!!!
Mine normally do, but I fight a lot of turtle squads where its a house of cards. You can't get through until you take down one toon, then they crumble. GK(L), Chaze, Barris, DN, Or Rex(L), GK, Barris, Chaze. Until you take out GK or Barris that team is difficult to get through. Without DN it would be a lot more difficult.
With Thrawn, Fracture him and he'll sit there while you whittle down the tanks. Even better, Thrawn with your own Nihilus, when Fracture runs out, if your Nihilus still hasn't used Annihilate, then have Thrawn switch turn meter with him to not only give him protection back but get to his next turn to either use Drain Force again or Annihilate.
Name three.
It's not that toons are impossible to beat without DN, it's that he covers a wider variety of situations.
Zylo, Zavage, Baze are easily counterable with any high powered enough combination. (Fulcrum, Wiggs, a single hit from Chirrut can take out their entire health if he's built up enough, now Thrawn with his Fracture, Rex's special can take a good chunk from Zavage or Baze, heck, I can get Palp hitting for 20k on crit if you mod him for offense.) Once you take Baze out, Chirrut crumbles.
Zarriss' scariness mostly works on crit. Unfortunately, people often pair here with GK, which seems clever, but crit on Zarriss, cleans GK's taunt, and then take Zarriss out since she now has crit immunity. (Granted, this strategy is made a lot easier with DN's basic that can cleanse, but we also have Baze, B2, Ezra, QGJ that can all easily cleanse a taunt, as well.
So it's not that any of these are impossible to beat with DN; not even nearly impossible. It's that DN makes encounters with these toons easier; he helps in a wide variety of situations.
Personally, I like toons that are unique that will always have some kind of utility. Could he be non-meta? I've certainly seen plenty of teams lately that do just fine without him. Will you always be able to find a use for him if you look? I think so.
Short answer, yes.
If Jyn is working for you on offense, cool. I bet on defense she isn't used as well. One of the reasons DN is so good is he's simple enough the IA is using him well. Try him see how he fits.
No toon is permanent, just look at QGJ, one of the most highly used toons for year 1 of the game. Slowly edged out of almost every game by other toons and only real place left is leader of a jedi team. Still useful in many areas,just not used as much as he once was.
balanced how exactly? If you compare all 129 characters with eachother, DN is not exactly average by any means.
Don't get me wrong, i have no problems with DN. He just performs alot better than pretty much every character ingame with a few exceptions who mainly depend on duo synergy or normal synergy. I'm totally fine with that though.
I do fully agree about him not being permanent, power creep will take care of that. (wich suprisingly enough i'm also fine with