Powercreep and the game - is it time to review it?
So, this is mostly aimed at @CG_RyDiggs and @CG_Carrie , since I feel most of the playerbase feels the same: are you guys ok with powercreep in the moment and are you considering nerfing toons all across the board to open some design space?
I'm asking you this because when you release a toon that single handly solo the rancor, and delivers more than 1m in a single phase of the HAAT, I feel you guys lost control of the balance.
And not because you don't know how to do it, it is because you guys are willingly let the game take that route. And I can't stress enough how you guys shouldnt do that, but you already know.
Also, I do have CLS, but being a jedi fan myself, I got him and let him dust. Then I started noticing everyone was running him in Arena, and soloing rancor with him, etc., not to mention TB was around the corner.
So I buffed him and I have no regrets, he is stellar, but I feel he is doing way too much and if this is the route the game is taking from now on, I can only feel bad because it will eventually hit a wall and the game will slowly start to die out.
With the introduction of GXII, it would be the perfect opportunity to nerf raw stats accross the board, so that gear/mods mean more, which is ok too.
Also, if you (the developers/the players) dont agree, would you be willing to share some thoughts on the subject? Thanks in advance.
I'm asking you this because when you release a toon that single handly solo the rancor, and delivers more than 1m in a single phase of the HAAT, I feel you guys lost control of the balance.
And not because you don't know how to do it, it is because you guys are willingly let the game take that route. And I can't stress enough how you guys shouldnt do that, but you already know.
Also, I do have CLS, but being a jedi fan myself, I got him and let him dust. Then I started noticing everyone was running him in Arena, and soloing rancor with him, etc., not to mention TB was around the corner.
So I buffed him and I have no regrets, he is stellar, but I feel he is doing way too much and if this is the route the game is taking from now on, I can only feel bad because it will eventually hit a wall and the game will slowly start to die out.
With the introduction of GXII, it would be the perfect opportunity to nerf raw stats accross the board, so that gear/mods mean more, which is ok too.
Also, if you (the developers/the players) dont agree, would you be willing to share some thoughts on the subject? Thanks in advance.
1
- 60.9K General Discussion
- 9 Developer Q&A Archive
- 2.6K New Players
- 30.5K Arena and Character Strategy
- 4K Individual Events
- 4.6K Guild Events
- 4.6K PVP and Rivalry
- 50.1K Guild Recruitment
- 731 Art and Media
- 4.1K Off Topic
Howdy, Stranger!
Replies
CLS is a fun toon but his release really broke a fairly stable multi-team meta going on in Arena.
As a developer myself, I can tell you that avoiding power creep is impossible. If you don't release increasingly powerful toons, or toons that do something unique, players will lose interest.
Now, let's take a look at what is required to get Luke (who unlocks at 7*)...5 7* Empire (to get 7* R2) and 7* ANH characters (including the aforementioned R2).
And IF you were to use EP to get 7* R2, then that's even MORE characters at 7* and a decent gear level to unlock him.
So if you think about all the investment (time/money/etc.) to get CLS, then having him be so powerful makes perfect sense.
I do not have CLS but am working towards him. As someone who doesn't have CLS, I have zero problem with others who put in the effort to get him being able to accomplish great things.
Also, think about it this way: CLS is a way to save time on things like the Rancor (with the proper investment) which is also a bonus and something the devs have said they wanted to figure out how to do.
He is an end-game character, the main character of the three original movies, one of the most iconic characters in filmography and should most definitely have end-game power. Which he does...in spades...lol
I would not expect new, non-legendary characters, to have similar power. I would expect a Bespin Vader (should he release) to be more powerful since he kicked the crap out of CLS, but otherwise, until we get Jedi Luke I wouldn't expect to see anyone else come into the game anytime soon that can knock him off that throne.
First and foremost being, raids always get easier over time. People have been soloing Rancor in particular for a long while, so a character who is particularly good at doing that specific thing isn't game-breaking in any regard. After all, does it really matter if someone solos with a zVader squad and someone else solos with Luke? They both soloed. They're both in the same drawing for the same rewards. Nerfing toons across the board to suddenly make Rancor harder wouldn't sit well with a lot of players and for good reason. Many of us have been doing that content for a long time. I don't want it to be harder or take more time (that second part being the critical portion). If I'm gonna spend more time in game I want new content.
Secondly, nerfing stats across the board doesn't make mods mean more as you contend, at least not all of them, since ultimately it makes all the percentage based mods mean less. This puts hefty limiters on what's a good mod and what is mostly garbage. This would put even more of a premium on speed secondaries, and that's not a direction I'd like to see the game go.
In the end I'd much rather see the addition of another raid than the type of balance pass you are suggesting. That would allow for more challenging content without pushing us backwards on what we've already spent months doing.
However, the rancor solo is the least of my concerns, it is the fact that CLS is everywhere and knowing how CG works, they will probably release a counter to him that will be equally or more powerful than CLS, like Bespin Vader for instance. And that trend isn't good in my eyes. But good points, I certainly didn't expect to have the first 3 posts against what I'm saying.
If you could move this back to general discussion, which it truly is - I'm not giving feedback, I'm asking for opinions - I would be very thankful.
The only discussion that we could have is how much (or how fast(?)) powercreep is optimal . I think anyone who's against powercreep alltogether is fooling himself. It's pretty similar to discussions about balance.
That's a tough walnut to crack. I wouldn't mind making synergies more important, or flat out penalizing mixed ls/ds teams in arena, but I know a lot of people are adamantly against that so...
I mean, I understand the "logic" behind powercreep - which is to generate revenue -, but I also know that eventually we will reach a wall that is either get the new toons or get left behind.
This is why I feel it's a good topic to discuss, that's all.
I do appreciate the responses so far, it's good to share different points of view.
Spot on man.
With that being said though I also think its stupid how a character like CLS is just flat out better than so many other characters by such a large margin in every aspect of the game. Sometimes I wish they'd just tone characters down as needed and get away from the ridiculous zero nerf policy. Every time they raise the bar on the high end the rest of your roster effectively gets nerfed...I don't see what the huge deal is if they say whoops...raised the bar a little too high on that one...gonna bring it back down a bit.
It's a good topic to discuss, but unfortunately most of these discussions aren't discussed good. I hope you understand what i mean by that, couldn't find a better wording, lol.
people blame powercreep for alot of things without acknowledging the good powercreep does. Do we really want an arena where every meta team that ever excisted is still viable and able to take top ranks? I sure don't.
I say this as a stricktly f2p player, so it's not just about revenue.
This all will inevitably lead to the diversity discussion, it always does.
I think people should ask themselfes what they would prefer, an evolving meta with flavours of the month or all teams viable at the same time and just hope for a diverse leaderboard at all ranks. I obviously choose the evolving meta. But i guess if you're nightsister fan for example you wouldn't agree with me.
I have issues with balancing characters based on Lore, because it ruins game balance. It's pretty much established in the Lore that pretty much no-one can beat Palpatine. His sheer power in the Force and ability with a lightsaber (in his prime) outmatched the competition by such a large margin that not even Yoda could take him on. He took on multiple Jedi Masters at the same time and only conveniently lost when he needed to get Anakin's sympathy.
So, if you were to balance based on Lore, anyone with Palpatine should just win. Could a squad of Rebels without even a passing connection to the Force even land a hit on Palpatine? Hell no! They'd get decimated before they could even scream 'holy hell what happened to his face?'
Also, I get power-creep. I get why it exists and why it's helpful, but it's not done right here. In other games, new characters or classes are usually good, with interesting new mechanics for people to play with. They can get away with releasing new things without invalidating the old ones because they *TRIGGER WARNING* balance! Buff and Nerf! If a character in a MOBA or MMO becomes too weak, they're buffed! If a new character utterly dominates everything, they're nerfed!
In this game, if an old character becomes irrelevant, they just stay that way until, maybe, their faction gets reworked and they, maybe, become useful. If they don't, they're pretty much doomed. If a new character is far too strong, they stay that way until a newer, stronger character is released who counters them and pushes them from the meta.
What exactly are you saying? Your statement about checkers vs chess is way too vague for me to even guess what that would mean for a game like swgoh.
As for the trash characters to unlock characters, that's not really an issue for me. Even if empire, jedi and rebels didn't unlock characters, i would have still farmed atleast 5 of them. Phoenix isn't all that, but they've got their uses, even moreso because of TB. I'm even willing to go as far as saying that i like character restrictions for events/game modes. It gives me a reason to diversify my roster and also adds to the planning/resourcemanagement aspect of the game. You can't just farm "meta" characters or the characters you personally like, you have to make choices. The choices you make pay-off, not just by getting the character but also giving a sence of accomplishment. It's part of the reason i'm still playing this game, always having something to strive for. None of that would be possible without powercreep. Let's be honest, a whole lot less people would have farmed phoenix if the event rewarded a CUP-like character.
I don't feel "forced" either. I want to, or i don't want to. For example i don't even have baze unlocked, a character who's the part of arguably the best duo ingame for a long time. I did fine, and still do fine in arena without him. I also skipped the zmaul meta, wich according to some only lasted 2 days, but still, you get the point. I don't use my favourite toons in arena though, simply because it would take too much effort to ensure a steady supply of crystals, if that's possible at all with my personal favs. That's okay though because during my "swgoh carreer" i've had to use quite alot of different teams in arena to maximize my rewards, wich is arguably less boring than always playing with your favorite team.
You don't feel forced but it's because it plays to your joy. Guess what. Thousands of people play this game and astonishingly enough, feel different than you do.
I disagree - nothing needs a nerf.
But, I also agree - the Dev team (in my eyes) seem to have lost control in regard to the power balance within this game since the release of Chaze.
It seems every new toon has to out perform the previous. That recent video of the new E7 Han & Chewie looks terrible. All arena teams will be running them - but this is nothing new. New meta always comes to play and everyone throws their arms in the air about it.
But, the damage these guys can do (especially chewie) is damaging to the game - they can easily destroy in seconds what is considered a meta team today.
I feel this game has lost balance, and yes there should be powerful toons, there must always be a toon to counter them and a toon to counter them.
This game is about strategy, and should not be the case where it is simply known that the newest toons trump ALL. There the strategy is lost.
It's funny that the day I put this up is also the day they "announce" the new Han and Chewie.
And guess what, they are powerhouses to do what? Exactly, COUNTER CLS. This is exactly what I was/am talking about.
I don't think we are there yet, but we are very close to a point where you either farm all these new toons or, put it simply, you are left behind.
And while I understand (and appreciate) that spenders should have their shiny toons first and with more ease, that shouldnt mean you have to exclude the whole F2P playerbase. It just doesnt make any sense.
Also, this goes a lot with how the development people perceive the game and the new toons they introduce, and why I feel devs should come here and give their opinion on the matter.
Every new addition to the game requires the player to spend more money than the last. Each new unit gets more powerful and my roster gets weaker because I can't afford to spend a fortune on a mobile game.
maybe those thousands installed the wrong game.
I wrote my comment from my own point of view because i can only speak for myself. Obviously not everyone is going to agree and that's totally fine. There is no right and wrong, just oppinions. The game isn't perfect. I'm open for alternatives for powercreep with less negative side affects. I'm easily convinced if someone makes a compelling argument. If i'm being honest though, i think most people who think they're against powercreep and "forced" farms wouldn't have liked the game without powercreep and forced farms.
"Many of the truths we cling to, depend greatly on our own points of view."