What is RNG and how does it work

I've been playing galaxy of heroes for roughly 5 years now and have heard and read about this RNG factor which seems to play a role in drop rates for rewards like shards and gear while apparently also altering performance of squads in non player vs player events like raids, etc. What I'd like to know is how rng can make certain events so difficult even when overpowered squads are used against computer controlled opponents that should be relatively easy to handle when toons are at a point where they can no longer be made stronger.

Replies

  • Yeah think of it like a dice roll. There's a 1 in 6 chance of hitting a given number. How often that happens if up to chance. In game, a random number is generated with a certain probability of hitting X. For things like debuffs, you can skew the probability by changing tenacity/potency.

    In terms of drop rates, its usually assumed there is a roughly 30% chance of getting a given shard, and while I'm sure the numbers in play are on a larger scale, you can think of it like the likelihood or rolling a 1 on a 3 sided die.
  • Someone who has been playing for 5 years should not need to ask this question.

    Post your swgoh.gg

    "SHOW US YOUR SHIPS!!"
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Coolnessda wrote: »
    I've been playing galaxy of heroes for roughly 5 years now and have heard and read about this RNG factor which seems to play a role in drop rates for rewards like shards and gear while apparently also altering performance of squads in non player vs player events like raids, etc. What I'd like to know is how rng can make certain events so difficult even when overpowered squads are used against computer controlled opponents that should be relatively easy to handle when toons are at a point where they can no longer be made stronger.

    Well, you kind-of have the concept in your head if you have a perception of "overpowered." Overpowered compared to what? Most algorithms have odds built into them. The odds are always legitimate rolls of dice though. If a skill has 60% chance of landing during an attack, then when you click attack a random number generator function is run. If the random number out of 100 is <40 it doesn't land, = or > 40 it does. You can write it other ways.

    So when you say "overpowered " you have already been comparing your gear levels unconsciously to difficulty generated by where those RNG cutoffs are for everything in the game. Everytime you battle anything in this game, you are battling RNG to so some extent. The less your success chances seem to be the likely RNG is weighted more against you.
  • I also have the feeling the RNG in SWGOH has a pattern.
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    But that is just a feeling. And feelings are not logical. RNG is.
  • Waqui
    7982 posts Member
    edited January 11
    Antario wrote: »
    I also have the feeling the RNG in SWGOH has a pattern.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    But that is just a feeling. And feelings are not logical. RNG is.

    However, RNG is rarely random ;-)
  • RNG is a god that you must sacrifice your first born to.

    Landing de-buffs, I always though this depended on potency and tenacity %'s - so I assume if potency =< tenacity, then you were unlikely to land the de-buff but RNG may come into play if they are equal.
  • Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Calo_Nord wrote: »
    Antario wrote: »
    I also have the feeling the RNG in SWGOH has a pattern.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    But that is just a feeling. And feelings are not logical. RNG is.



    Most RNG actually is deterministic and has a finite period meaning it does follow a pattern and the pattern repeats itself. A few important things to note are:

    The pattern statistically speaking does a reasonably good job mimicking randomness (although some rng methods have better statistical properties than others. Mersenne Twister was popular for a long time but has known flaws).

    The period is large like 2^128 large which basically means even if the same pattern was used for everything you do in swgoh the entire time you’ve played SWGOH and if you passed your account onto your children and then your children’s children and so on it would be a very very long time before the pattern ever repeated.

    But that’s most likely not going to happen anyway because in reality it’s much more likely that different actions in the game such as simming, entering a battle, etc re-seed the rng. Meaning the pattern is constantly being reset to different “random” initial states. That random process also varies in quality but it’s often hardware based (eg the temperature of your device) which is a much truer source of randomness.

    RNG that is purely hardware based is non-deterministic and stateless meaning it doesn’t follow a pattern. It takes longer to generate and is used for stuff that requires cryptographically secure rng.
    TLDR: Software-based RNG isn't actually random, it's just pretending to be. :D

    But let's be honest - that is the coolest/best explanation on software-based RNG. If I could give 50 likes to that post, I would.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Calo_Nord wrote: »
    Antario wrote: »
    I also have the feeling the RNG in SWGOH has a pattern.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    But that is just a feeling. And feelings are not logical. RNG is.



    Most RNG actually is deterministic and has a finite period meaning it does follow a pattern and the pattern repeats itself. A few important things to note are:

    The pattern statistically speaking does a reasonably good job mimicking randomness (although some rng methods have better statistical properties than others. Mersenne Twister was popular for a long time but has known flaws).

    The period is large like 2^128 large which basically means even if the same pattern was used for everything you do in swgoh the entire time you’ve played SWGOH and if you passed your account onto your children and then your children’s children and so on it would be a very very long time before the pattern ever repeated.

    But that’s most likely not going to happen anyway because in reality it’s much more likely that different actions in the game such as simming, entering a battle, etc re-seed the rng. Meaning the pattern is constantly being reset to different “random” initial states. That random process also varies in quality but it’s often hardware based (eg the temperature of your device) which is a much truer source of randomness.

    RNG that is purely hardware based is non-deterministic and stateless meaning it doesn’t follow a pattern. It takes longer to generate and is used for stuff that requires cryptographically secure rng.
    TLDR: Software-based RNG isn't actually random, it's just pretending to be. :D

    But let's be honest - that is the coolest/best explanation on software-based RNG. If I could give 50 likes to that post, I would.
    Long-winded is not the same as good and content should be appropriate to the audience. If I was reviewing a design doc with content like that, I would tell him to cut the flowery language and get to the point.
  • Kyno
    27450 posts Moderator
    Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Calo_Nord wrote: »
    Antario wrote: »
    I also have the feeling the RNG in SWGOH has a pattern.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    But that is just a feeling. And feelings are not logical. RNG is.



    Most RNG actually is deterministic and has a finite period meaning it does follow a pattern and the pattern repeats itself. A few important things to note are:

    The pattern statistically speaking does a reasonably good job mimicking randomness (although some rng methods have better statistical properties than others. Mersenne Twister was popular for a long time but has known flaws).

    The period is large like 2^128 large which basically means even if the same pattern was used for everything you do in swgoh the entire time you’ve played SWGOH and if you passed your account onto your children and then your children’s children and so on it would be a very very long time before the pattern ever repeated.

    But that’s most likely not going to happen anyway because in reality it’s much more likely that different actions in the game such as simming, entering a battle, etc re-seed the rng. Meaning the pattern is constantly being reset to different “random” initial states. That random process also varies in quality but it’s often hardware based (eg the temperature of your device) which is a much truer source of randomness.

    RNG that is purely hardware based is non-deterministic and stateless meaning it doesn’t follow a pattern. It takes longer to generate and is used for stuff that requires cryptographically secure rng.
    TLDR: Software-based RNG isn't actually random, it's just pretending to be. :D

    But let's be honest - that is the coolest/best explanation on software-based RNG. If I could give 50 likes to that post, I would.
    Long-winded is not the same as good and content should be appropriate to the audience. If I was reviewing a design doc with content like that, I would tell him to cut the flowery language and get to the point.

    but since he is on a discussion site, that comes across very well put and almost necessary. if it was too dry, it wouldn't suit the audience.
  • Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent a new RandomNumberGenerator conceived in software and dedicated to the proposition that not all RandomNumberGenerators are created equal. Mersenne Twister, being thusly discovered in the year of our lord one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight, was a gloriously, fast software based psuedo-random number generator which in accordance to practices of the time became widely accepted. Sadly, in the course of human events, weaknesses in MT19937 were unveiled. In 2007, a team of scientists engaged in a great statistical trial, testing whether that RandomNumberGenerator, or any RandomNumberGenerator so conceived with a period of 2^19937-1 and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met here on this hollowed Monday on this forum of the world wide web to discourse on the meaning of RNG. And, for this purpose and to this intent, we must, in full disclosure with a mind towards thoroughness, furnish the outcome of those momentous trials. Doing any less would undermine the way of the forum and I fear leave many in a dismal state of unsatiated curiousity. Thus, it is with great humility that I, Calo Nord of the bounty hunter guild, declare the test suites affectionately known as SmallCrush, Crush, and BigCrush were too much for the poor MT19937 to surmount. Indeed, MT19937 failed to pass Crush and BigCrush. We, the people of Star Wars Galaxies of Heroes, demand a more perfect RandomNumberGenerator, established on hardware, to secure the Blessing of True Randomness for ourselves and our posterity. To those among us, who may perceive the words hitherto expressed as overly numerous perhaps so much so that they would prefer not to peruse them presently, there is an alternative explanation of considerably less length accessible on your device on mobility via the powers of the almighty search engine which may summon forth concise albeit sometimes shallow descriptions of RandomNumberGenerators suitable for all ages of maturity and all backgrounds of knowledge let alone complex academic journal articles and technical documentation from all manner of programming languages. My esteemed colleague of the forums, Rath Tarr the Rational Reptilian, graciously provided a witty explanation of fewer words not a few posts before my own. I harbor no ill will towards him or any others and do believe his post to be of the clever sort so much so that I am now inclined to offer it my endorsement of a like.
  • crzydroid
    5170 posts Moderator
    I really don't see why we need the so-called "true" randomness. What we have is more than adequate for game purposes.
  • The funny thing about RNG is that theoretically Wicket could have infinite turns with the right RNG because of his unique. So if you're stuck at some event where you can use him you could just keep trying and trying until he gets a ton of turns
  • crzydroid wrote: »
    I really don't see why we need the so-called "true" randomness. What we have is more than adequate for game purposes.
    We absolutely don't need "true" randomness here. The wall of text where I suggested that was a deliberately long-winded joke of floweriness. My previous long-winded wall of text explains "true" randomness is primarily necessary for security applications.
  • It's an evil being and it drains the life out of you slowly if you don't sacrifice your first born to the gods
  • twstdbydsn wrote: »
    It's an evil being and it drains the life out of you slowly if you don't sacrifice your first born to the gods

    I'm happy to report this is true. Finished GAS recently after giving up mine.
    Cheers,
  • IvoB1987 wrote: »
    The funny thing about RNG is that theoretically Wicket could have infinite turns with the right RNG because of his unique. So if you're stuck at some event where you can use him you could just keep trying and trying until he gets a ton of turns

    Same with Greedo
  • ShaggyB
    1860 posts Member
    el_mago wrote: »
    twstdbydsn wrote: »
    It's an evil being and it drains the life out of you slowly if you don't sacrifice your first born to the gods

    I'm happy to report this is true. Finished GAS recently after giving up mine.

    Probably for the best.
  • The term RNG means "Random Number Generator", but we use it to summarise the following:

    1. The change of an even happening, e.g. has 15% chance to resist a debuff. In a bit formal language this is called a random variable that is modelled with a probability mass/density function. For example, when you say that in a 6-side unbiased die the chance of rolling a 2 is 1/6, essentially you are describing this (mass in this case) function.
    2. The random number generator, which spit outs values to simulate the random events happening. For a small number of repetitions it might be noticed a bias. For large number of repetitions (as this number goes to infinity) the events happen at a rate that approximates the probability function (1). E.g. in 15% of the cases the debuff was resisted, a 2 was rolled 1/6 of the total rolls, etc.

    Since we are dealing with small number of the events happening, e.g. what matters is how many times a debuff was resisted in a single battle rather than in all battles, biases can occur. And that is what people mean by good/bad RNG.

    In the long run though, across all battles the RNG will converge to the function. To give an example, a counter vs SLKR with the two FO tanks depends on Malak landing shock to KRU so that Thrawn has an open path to fracture SLKR. In base mechanics, i.e. no potency and tenacity modifications, Thrawn will be able to fracture SLKR 85% of the total battles. But, in one day you might get 10 battles where shock was landed all the times (good RNG) and other days you might only get 1 shock (bad RNG).

    Hope this helps!

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