Jedi Master Luke needs some love [MERGE]

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Close_shave
8 posts Member
edited August 27
TL;DR: the upcoming changes strengthen all GLs but JMK and JML - JMK being mostly unaffected or even slightly buffed. JML will become weaker in most GL matchups, and his off-meta counters are largely unchanged. He could use something to bring him up, as the other GLs got.
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The road ahead presented some big changes to a bunch of characters, most importantly GAS, Vader and JKL. Notably, GAS got better with his clones, and Vader got some good utility, recovery, and a ton of crit chance to make up for his damage loss. In the meantime, JKL got 25% more offense and 195 more armor penetration (which only very mildly alleviate the damage loss from losing armor ignore), and 25% tenacity (which is virtually useless). He also gained true damage against non-GL tanks, which is good but extremely limited and doesn't really affect GL vs GL matches. This is expected, as the goal was to make non-GLs weaker vs GLs.

JKL is a staple of any JML team - while you can beat some weaker teams without him, going against most GL comps requires him, especially in squad arena. GAS is also extremely common and part of his best team. With these nerfs this team's damage drops drastically, thanks to GAS and JKL no longer ignoring armor or reducing the HP pool of the opposing GL. The team also loses control with GAS no longer increasing the cooldowns of the other GL, and since JKL's Jedi's Will is shared it means another character (generally GAS or JML) will also be dealing reduced damage.

Meanwhile, the JML vs SEE matchup got even worse thanks to the SEE buff. Jedi have plenty of locked buffs - Hoda's Master's Training, JKL's Jedi's Will, Bastila's Battle Meditation, and most notably JML's Jedi Legacy. This greatly limits the ability of JML to beat SEE, as SEE will be gaining TM constantly. The other Jedi GL is of course unaffected, thanks to his TM preventing lead.

If it seems like JML was hit hardest by these changes, it's because he was. Looking at the other GLs facing each other:
  • JMK doesn't use JKL and doesn't have to use GAS, his best team includes C-3PO instead. While C-3PO's confusion was nerfed, this nerf affects JMK less still (no TM gain to enemies anyway, and -50% defense is arguably better than cooldown increase on a GL) and in any case his primary role is reducing cooldowns to his own team - a role that is unchanged.
  • Rey doesn't have to use either JKL or GAS, and can use CAT as an Unaligned Force User. She also got a buff to Sudden Whirlwind which now makes her scale better with relics, and SEE's buff inadvertently makes her stronger against him - she can now gain mastery constantly when facing SEE. JML can technically make use of CAT, but he loses a lot in return, he's designed for use in a full Jedi team.
  • SEE grew stronger vs JML as noted above, and also thanks to GAS no longer being able to increase his cooldowns. He's unaffected against SLKR and JMK (stronger against JMK + GAS comps), and mildly weaker vs Rey if she swaps Lifeblood around, or has anyone who grants locked buffs on her team. Overall he's about the same in terms of GL balance, and much safer from off-meta counters.
  • SLKR is probably unchanged in terms of GL balance, but his off-meta counters are pretty much all destroyed now. He's in the same place he was vs GLs, but better overall.
  • JML is weaker against SEE thanks to the SEE buff, unaffected vs Rey most likely (her buff to damage won't be significant to him), mildly weaker vs SLKR (probably not enough for it to matter, but the GAS/JKL nerfs will affect him here) and weaker vs JMK thanks to those same nerfs. Meanwhile, his off-meta counters (DR being the big one) haven't changed in any significant way - while he can now apply debuffs through BSF's CBM, you can't ability block Sith Empire, and DR + BSF start the battle with foresight anyway - making them immune to his breach.

In addition to all these points, there are a couple more I want to bring up, which in my opinion are related:
  1. JML has 15 less mastery than all other GLs. Purportedly this was done because he enters battle with Jedi Legacy and thus has double mastery from the get-go, but I don't think that's a good reason. At R8, JML has 120 mastery at the start of battle. Compare that to Rey (105 after lead, gains 5.25 whenever an enemy gains TM), SLKR (105 after lead, can siphon another 42 after a single critical Stasis Strike), SEE (112.5 after lead, gains 11.25 whenever a Deceived or Linked enemy takes a turn), or JMK (93.75 after lead, gains at least 46.8 on his first ult and potentially 187.5… it's clear that extra 15 mastery isn't significant at all, the difference is gone within a couple of turns.
  2. JML remains the single GL incapable of stacking mastery. As noted above, all other GLs have ways to increase their mastery constantly, making them scale much better. JML and his team can increase their mastery by up to 60% temporarily, or double it once with his ultimate - but not both, and both require using Inherited Teaching instead of their main abilities. This is even more punishing against SEE and JMK, since they nullify the TM gains from Inherited Teachings, making it even weaker compared to using an attack.

JML has always required at least one other strong Jedi on his team to beat GLs, making him a pricy GL. Now that these strong Jedi are being adjusted, he's becoming collateral damage, and worse even for the price of using him. Therefore, I think it's fair that he gets some sort of buff to compensate for his loss.

Allowing him to stack mastery would be the ideal way to go in my opinion, as it would bring him on par with the other GLs in the one place where he was always behind. My suggestion - give some permanent mastery gains (5-10%) to the use of Inherited Teachings. This will make JML's team capable of ramping up over time while not being OP. They'd still have to use Inherited Teachings if they want to benefit from mastery increases.

This is a long post I know, I hope it explains my issues with these changes.
Post edited by crzydroid on

Replies

  • I understand all your points here but for me personally I hate seeing JML + JKL + GAS teams in arena. Especially when JML isnt the lead. The focus of that team should be on JML but it never is. He absorbs hits and nothing else. He basically has a bad kit imo that allows non GLs to fight GLs which just irritate me 😅 Whilst JKL and GAS are not GLs they are just under and DS builds do not have any toons that can compare beside Malak. Until DS has more toons on tier with JKL im happy he is being nerfed a little.

    Another team i see frequently mixed in amongst top100 in my shard is JKR + JKL + GAS. In my opinion this team should not be able to contend against GLs. GLs > non GLs; GLs=GLs
  • I would like to note, that Rey is now buffed with CAT so she can reliable(100%) beat any JML composition. I used to use SEE against JML, but now i use Rey against all other GL reliable.
  • SerylT2
    146 posts Member
    RS358 wrote: »
    I understand all your points here but for me personally I hate seeing JML + JKL + GAS teams in arena.

    I cannot fault you for having this point of view let me be honest. But how many JMK/CAT/GenKenobi's are you going to run into also now. Yes the nerfs have made that JML team less viable in arena, but all it has done is take one less team out of contention, potentially making Arena leaderboards less diverse.

  • Great post. My only hope is maybe they take a second pass at him? He's clearly the weakest GL after the nerfs go live, and to respond to @RS358, the reason you see that team in arena is because JML isn't strong enough to compete against arena metas with anything but the best supporting (or leading in this case) cast.

    I hadn't considered the staking mastery issue with him yet; he may compare relatively the same to other GLs now, but what about when R10, 11, 12, etc. roll around. He will be left in the dust.

    My hope is they could at least tweak his ultimate to proc a little faster. I'm still sitting on my mats for it for the simple fact I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen him get it in arena. Just not a good ultimate in my opinion other than for LSTB.

    For CG wanting to make all GLs like mini Raid Bosses, JML sure seems more like a mini Raid Secretary.
  • JML's best or the only reliable counter team vs. SEE will be entirely removed with the nerfs. That is, Bastila lead, JML with Wat's weapon. It relies on Wat weapon's armor ignore, which they will be removing. Additionally GAS and JKL nerfs I believe remove JML's other possible SEE counters.
    JML vs. SLKR will become a more chancy matchup, which will only go as it is supposed to go on offense, as it will be reliant on the use of Inherited Teachings. SLKR will or will be very close to snatching the defensive advantage when we account for Relic 9.
    JML vs. Rey will also become a more chancy matchup because even now a maxed Rey is very close to being able to tank all the focus that is coming for her. After nerfs the main way, reducing the max health, of taking Rey out is gone.
    Finally JML vs. JMK gets pretty heavily nerfed. JML might start lacking damage to take CAT out.

    These points prove their nerfs affect GL vs. GL balance in a significant way. With Relic 9 there will be another layer of inequality coming when boosting a JML team would mean relicing everyone while SLKRs need only bring SLKR up in relics.
  • str2019 wrote: »
    JML vs. Rey will also become a more chancy matchup because even now a maxed Rey is very close to being able to tank all the focus that is coming for her. After nerfs the main way, reducing the max health, of taking Rey out is gone.
    Finally JML vs. JMK gets pretty heavily nerfed. JML might start lacking damage to take CAT out.

    These points prove their nerfs affect GL vs. GL balance in a significant way. With Relic 9 there will be another layer of inequality coming when boosting a JML team would mean relicing everyone while SLKRs need only bring SLKR up in relics.

    Except, everybody seems to forget (or don’t mind), Rey has the biggest nerf of all.
    Whirlwind damages *2 instead of *3, she won’t be able to os anymore. So by nerfing her biggest strength, Rey becomes useless and will be easily beaten by non gl teams.

  • Seranya6 wrote: »
    str2019 wrote: »
    JML vs. Rey will also become a more chancy matchup because even now a maxed Rey is very close to being able to tank all the focus that is coming for her. After nerfs the main way, reducing the max health, of taking Rey out is gone.
    Finally JML vs. JMK gets pretty heavily nerfed. JML might start lacking damage to take CAT out.

    These points prove their nerfs affect GL vs. GL balance in a significant way. With Relic 9 there will be another layer of inequality coming when boosting a JML team would mean relicing everyone while SLKRs need only bring SLKR up in relics.

    Except, everybody seems to forget (or don’t mind), Rey has the biggest nerf of all.
    Whirlwind damages *2 instead of *3, she won’t be able to os anymore. So by nerfing her biggest strength, Rey becomes useless and will be easily beaten by non gl teams.

    You missed a spot: ‘ and deals 7% more damage with massive damage per Relic Amplifier level.’
  • wrmktraxqc54.jpeg

    Deals true damages *2 then attack all.
    Not sure 7% applies to first attack.
    And even if it applies, for a relic 7, 49% increase damages instead of 100% actually.
  • Seranya6 wrote: »
    wrmktraxqc54.jpeg

    Deals true damages *2 then attack all.
    Not sure 7% applies to first attack.
    And even if it applies, for a relic 7, 49% increase damages instead of 100% actually.

    It applies to ‘massive damage’, which are 99,999 damage, twice. Add an extra 49% and you have about 150,000 damage per attack, for 300,000 total, as before. However, if you up her to r8, r9 or whatever will come later, it will be more. That way, what was before fixed damage won’t be less and less efficient the more relic levels they add to the game.

  • JML with R9 and defense rework might balance out the JKL JKR GAS nerf.
  • Antario
    471 posts Member
    Starslayer wrote: »
    Seranya6 wrote: »
    str2019 wrote: »
    JML vs. Rey will also become a more chancy matchup because even now a maxed Rey is very close to being able to tank all the focus that is coming for her. After nerfs the main way, reducing the max health, of taking Rey out is gone.
    Finally JML vs. JMK gets pretty heavily nerfed. JML might start lacking damage to take CAT out.

    These points prove their nerfs affect GL vs. GL balance in a significant way. With Relic 9 there will be another layer of inequality coming when boosting a JML team would mean relicing everyone while SLKRs need only bring SLKR up in relics.

    Except, everybody seems to forget (or don’t mind), Rey has the biggest nerf of all.
    Whirlwind damages *2 instead of *3, she won’t be able to os anymore. So by nerfing her biggest strength, Rey becomes useless and will be easily beaten by non gl teams.

    You missed a spot: ‘ and deals 7% more damage with massive damage per Relic Amplifier level.’

    This. With R8, the new Rey will deal more damage with WW than before.

    To OP, the answer to all your problems will be R9. As CG pointed out, R9 will give TANKs a great boost. Let's at least give them a chance and wait to see what R9 really brings to the table for JML in terms of a TANK.
  • SerylT2
    146 posts Member
    Antario wrote: »
    To OP, the answer to all your problems will be R9. As CG pointed out, R9 will give TANKs a great boost. Let's at least give them a chance and wait to see what R9 really brings to the table for JML in terms of a TANK.

    I find this hard to believe. Do you honestly believe that Relic 9 is only going to benefit JML and not SLKR and the other offensive minded GL's? I mean if that is truly how it is.. quite the expensive fix for JML users.. but I struggle to believe that they will make Relic 9 not an important upgrade for the other GL's.. otherwise people will not rush to gather materials to Relic 9 their Kenobi's, Rey's, and Kylo's

    They say a great deal but often they contradict themselves. This "Relic 9 is for the tanks." reeks of nonsense to me. They are not going to release a relic level that only benefits a small portion of the GOH roster.

  • RS358 wrote: »
    I understand all your points here but for me personally I hate seeing JML + JKL + GAS teams in arena. Especially when JML isnt the lead. The focus of that team should be on JML but it never is. He absorbs hits and nothing else. He basically has a bad kit imo that allows non GLs to fight GLs which just irritate me 😅 Whilst JKL and GAS are not GLs they are just under and DS builds do not have any toons that can compare beside Malak. Until DS has more toons on tier with JKL im happy he is being nerfed a little.

    Another team i see frequently mixed in amongst top100 in my shard is JKR + JKL + GAS. In my opinion this team should not be able to contend against GLs. GLs > non GLs; GLs=GLs

    JKL isn't being nerfed a little. He's being nerfed alot. The dmg 'bonus' they're giving him does nothing compared to what he's currently doing, especially when you factor in the defense GLs have. and given he requires so many relic toons, he's basically a mini-GL without an ultimate. His requirements are in line with his power, and via this nerf that will no longer be the case.

    Thats kinda my point with JKL being a mini-GL, and GAS/Malak coming in just behind. You can stack these toons on the same team with a GL, to the benefit of LS, whereas the DS doesnt have the toons to match up. SLKR relies on FO only and SEE is sith or WAT/armourer but they dont even come close to JKL.

    What im getting at really is i think it was either nerfs like this happen, or eventually they would have had to cap the number of mini-gls you can add to a team setup.

    Also DS needs a JKL equivalent.
  • Crimson777 wrote: »
    JML with R9 and defense rework might balance out the JKL JKR GAS nerf.

    they never said defense was getting a rework. They said the nerfs would make defense more relevant. How does that mean JKL and Gen Sky's nerfs will be offset by JML? if my r8 JML is doing embarassingly low dmg, that doesn't give me confidence to make him r9 *hoping* for more dmg. I just want my r8 back from JML. those mats are precious and JML isn't worth them anymore.

    No question. Glad mine is only r7 with no ult. No point going any higher. Great character, but weak as a GL goes.
  • Antario
    471 posts Member
    edited August 7
    SerylT2 wrote: »
    Antario wrote: »
    To OP, the answer to all your problems will be R9. As CG pointed out, R9 will give TANKs a great boost. Let's at least give them a chance and wait to see what R9 really brings to the table for JML in terms of a TANK.

    I find this hard to believe. Do you honestly believe that Relic 9 is only going to benefit JML and not SLKR and the other offensive minded GL's? I mean if that is truly how it is.. quite the expensive fix for JML users.. but I struggle to believe that they will make Relic 9 not an important upgrade for the other GL's.. otherwise people will not rush to gather materials to Relic 9 their Kenobi's, Rey's, and Kylo's

    They say a great deal but often they contradict themselves. This "Relic 9 is for the tanks." reeks of nonsense to me. They are not going to release a relic level that only benefits a small portion of the GOH roster.


    Okay, here is what I believe: I think R9 will give all TANKS a huge boost in Protection percentage. And as we all know, through Inherited Teachings, JML allows all allied Jedis to deal extra true dmg equals 60% of JML's Max Protection. How does that sounds? All of a sudden, you don't need a GAS or JKL anymore, basically any trash Jedi in the game will be able to dish out significant damage with JML lead. With defense penetration and ignore defense being nerved, the meaning of true damage eventually gets a boost.

    In a certain way, you can already see that happening in LSTB, where a JML lead with some trash Jedis (no JKL, no GAS) can easily do 4/4 consistently and the big hitters are Jolee and Barris.

    Of course R9 impact to JML above is purely speculative at the moment. But I just want to show you how unique the JML kit still is and how little change is necessary to boost JML SPECIFICALLY.

    Maybe, and just maybe, this is the reason why the character designers at CG did not boost JML like the other GLs. Because they know what's coming down the road and they don't what to have a totally overpowered JML after R9 release.

  • SerylT2
    146 posts Member
    edited August 7
    Antario wrote: »
    Maybe, and just maybe, this is the reason why the character designers at CG did not boost JML like the other GLs. Because they know what's coming down the road and they don't what to have a totally overpowered JML after R9 release.

    Maybes and what ifs are always fun. Like wishful thinking. That I am supposed to take the word of a Dev team that just flat out lied repeatedly yesterday is laughable at best.

  • Antario wrote: »
    To OP, the answer to all your problems will be R9. As CG pointed out, R9 will give TANKs a great boost. Let's at least give them a chance and wait to see what R9 really brings to the table for JML in terms of a TANK.

    Even if true (doubtful), that's not an answer. Why would a single GL be forced to get R9 to compete? As things stand right now, there's no reason to believe R9 is anything other than another stat boost, and that doesn't help JML with what he'll very soon be lacking - damage.

    I disagree with the sentiments that his ult is bad (35% offense and taunt ignore are great), and that it takes too long to charge (it takes 7 turns if you work on it). I do think his ult charge mechanic is clunky though, and he's the only GL that requires a character to trade their role for the ult charging. So he could gain more from Inherited Teachings, especially considering how many ways there are to stop the TM gain, and how low damage it deals compared to just using attacks.
  • Antario
    471 posts Member

    Antario wrote: »
    To OP, the answer to all your problems will be R9. As CG pointed out, R9 will give TANKs a great boost. Let's at least give them a chance and wait to see what R9 really brings to the table for JML in terms of a TANK.

    Even if true (doubtful), that's not an answer. Why would a single GL be forced to get R9 to compete? As things stand right now, there's no reason to believe R9 is anything other than another stat boost, and that doesn't help JML with what he'll very soon be lacking - damage.

    I disagree with the sentiments that his ult is bad (35% offense and taunt ignore are great), and that it takes too long to charge (it takes 7 turns if you work on it). I do think his ult charge mechanic is clunky though, and he's the only GL that requires a character to trade their role for the ult charging. So he could gain more from Inherited Teachings, especially considering how many ways there are to stop the TM gain, and how low damage it deals compared to just using attacks.

    You should read my second reply.
  • StarDog89 wrote: »
    Crimson777 wrote: »
    JML with R9 and defense rework might balance out the JKL JKR GAS nerf.

    they never said defense was getting a rework. They said the nerfs would make defense more relevant. How does that mean JKL and Gen Sky's nerfs will be offset by JML? if my r8 JML is doing embarassingly low dmg, that doesn't give me confidence to make him r9 *hoping* for more dmg. I just want my r8 back from JML. those mats are precious and JML isn't worth them anymore.

    No question. Glad mine is only r7 with no ult. No point going any higher. Great character, but weak as a GL goes.

    his ult is really nice for LS Geo but these nerfs make me think it won't matter in the long run bc despite being one of the most expensive GLs, CG have made him the weakest.

    Strange….
    Many people say « jml is the weakest »

    So I suppose my shard is full of noobs. Before jmk, many had 4 gl and most of them used jml.
    Before jmk, there was easily 50% jml, 25% see, 23% slkr and 2% (I was the only one) rey.

    Now with jmk: 50% jmk, 10% slkr, 15% see, 25% jml, 0 rey.

    Why the hell if the shard love challenges by playing the weakest, do they not use no gl teams ?
  • Starslayer
    1328 posts Member
    edited August 8
    Seranya6 wrote: »
    StarDog89 wrote: »
    Crimson777 wrote: »
    JML with R9 and defense rework might balance out the JKL JKR GAS nerf.

    they never said defense was getting a rework. They said the nerfs would make defense more relevant. How does that mean JKL and Gen Sky's nerfs will be offset by JML? if my r8 JML is doing embarassingly low dmg, that doesn't give me confidence to make him r9 *hoping* for more dmg. I just want my r8 back from JML. those mats are precious and JML isn't worth them anymore.

    No question. Glad mine is only r7 with no ult. No point going any higher. Great character, but weak as a GL goes.

    his ult is really nice for LS Geo but these nerfs make me think it won't matter in the long run bc despite being one of the most expensive GLs, CG have made him the weakest.

    Strange….
    Many people say « jml is the weakest »

    So I suppose my shard is full of noobs. Before jmk, many had 4 gl and most of them used jml.
    Before jmk, there was easily 50% jml, 25% see, 23% slkr and 2% (I was the only one) rey.

    Now with jmk: 50% jmk, 10% slkr, 15% see, 25% jml, 0 rey.

    Why the hell if the shard love challenges by playing the weakest, do they not use no gl teams ?

    To be fair, many people (on this thread) say "JML will be the weakest after the nerfs", which is not the same.

    It's the whole point of this thread actually. Feel free to discuss it ;)
  • RS358 wrote: »
    I understand all your points here but for me personally I hate seeing JML + JKL + GAS teams in arena. Especially when JML isnt the lead. The focus of that team should be on JML but it never is. He absorbs hits and nothing else. He basically has a bad kit imo that allows non GLs to fight GLs which just irritate me 😅 Whilst JKL and GAS are not GLs they are just under and DS builds do not have any toons that can compare beside Malak. Until DS has more toons on tier with JKL im happy he is being nerfed a little.

    Another team i see frequently mixed in amongst top100 in my shard is JKR + JKL + GAS. In my opinion this team should not be able to contend against GLs. GLs > non GLs; GLs=GLs

    Why should GLs always be the lead? Going forward, only releasing GLs that need to be in the leader slot seems limiting.
    Some support GL s that function similarly to C3po or Wat could be really cool. Like a support Bounty Hunter GL in the form of Jabba, that just raises the utility of the whole faction.
    You could always give them a leadership ability, but making GP roles more diverse seems like a good idea me.
    JML just has the opposite problem... He needs meta chars to work since his leadership is just so weak, making him somewhat lacklustre.
  • Antario wrote: »
    You should read my second reply.

    I did. You're ignoring the whole point about not having to bring JML to R9 to compete with R7/8 GLs. Did you read my reply?

    Relics have, from R1 through R8, increased mastery and primary stats. We haven't been given any indication R9 will be any different. So even if it doubles his mastery from 60 to 120 (giving him 27,600 protection from relics), we can expect attackers to gain similar boosts to their damage - SLKR, Rey and JMK will gain 3,120 offense and 36% CC/CD, SEE will gain 3,240 offense and 36% accuracy/CC. So yeah his damage will grow with relics, just like any other GL's will. He's still being left behind.
  • I do hope my JML won't require R9 to compete because as it currently stands, having only conquest to gain R8 materials, I don't get to chose my R8s (let alone R9s) CG do that for me and they haven't chosen JML yet (it's GK, Yoda, Padme, GAS, Boba or Piett)
  • JML's kit is in serious need of buffs after this nerf. GAS and JKL are an essential part of JML's squad. JML was always the worst JML, but the synergy with his Jedi squad is what made him good. Right now you severely reduced ALL of his weapons, so he's bqck to being the worst GL.

    I'm fine with nerfing GAS and JKL, but you guys gotta make up the difference with a buff to JML's kit because right now it's pretty horrible
  • Pretty sure without those two JML is dead in the water. JML for the most part hits like a wet noodle….just had a mirror match JML vs JML (JKR lead on both) and GAS managed a 37K strike with three armour shreds on JML….I invested in JML, so thanks a bunch CG….you suck.
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