Kenobi - S1E5 (Spoilers)

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  • AlexanderG
    1383 posts Member
    Oh and Tala's character was good in this. Shame she's now out of it.
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    Screerider wrote: »
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    Small change, but acknowledges the most recent time kenobi helped bale and his family
    While I appreciate your thoughts on how to edit a movie from the 70's, it isn't necessary to resolve the supposed "plot hole".

    One cant edit it.

    Thats the issue, this plot line breaks a key scene in the establishing movie
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    LastJedi13 wrote: »
    Great episode but they should of had Vader and GI finish off Reva.

    Yeah that is the only major issue I had with this episode. In the same vein, also why does Vader keep letting Obi Wan run off?

    Because (as this episode tried to underline) he's over confident and blind to alternative scenarios. He doesn't keep letting Obi-Wan go, he just doesn't realise there's a will other than his own. Take the retro fight, time and time again he's sure he's got Kenobi where he wants him. He's just too dumb to realise that's not the case.

    So basically the plot keeps Vader from doing what he wants.

    Well, I suppose that's irrefutably true. But I think both this mini series and A New Hope show that Anakin / Vader overestimates himself and underestimates Kenobi.

    Put simply, Obi-Wan might be less powerful but he's far more intelligent.

    Well I wont argue about his escape in the latest episode, but Im not sure how Kenobis escape in the third episode was a result of Kenobi's intelligence or Vader's overconfidence. Its especially jarring seeing him let Kenobi get slowly dragged away 5 meters from him when he can pull down a spaceship.

    Yep. Would have been fine if the next episode was not on the inquistive base.

    If it was an episode where vader is chasing kenobi and just killing everything that tries to help him... then it would have been vader letting him go to 'play with his food' and draw out his supporters.

    But literally they let fire stand between him and his prey after showing him effortlessly pull kenobi through the flames. Why couldnt he just pull him through the taller flames?
  • TargetEadu
    1308 posts Member
    I’ll just say again what I said last time: Leia’s message in A New Hope wasn’t to get a rescue, it was to get Kenobi to get the plans to Bail and the Rebellion. Her position was, in her mind, irrelevant.
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    TargetEadu wrote: »
    I’ll just say again what I said last time: Leia’s message in A New Hope wasn’t to get a rescue, it was to get Kenobi to get the plans to Bail and the Rebellion. Her position was, in her mind, irrelevant.

    The issue is kenobi. Clearly he cares about leia. The show points that out all the time.

    It would be way easier to move him with personel connection and given that connection, it becomes weird to not mention it.

    This makes New Hope's speach feel odd now.

    I get that you dont get it and you dont really care, so i will leave it with this...

    Due to Kenobi show, parts of A New Hope are now weird, given newly established back stories.
  • TargetEadu
    1308 posts Member
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    TargetEadu wrote: »
    I’ll just say again what I said last time: Leia’s message in A New Hope wasn’t to get a rescue, it was to get Kenobi to get the plans to Bail and the Rebellion. Her position was, in her mind, irrelevant.

    The issue is kenobi. Clearly he cares about leia. The show points that out all the time.

    It would be way easier to move him with personel connection and given that connection, it becomes weird to not mention it.

    This makes New Hope's speach feel odd now.

    I get that you dont get it and you dont really care, so i will leave it with this...

    Due to Kenobi show, parts of A New Hope are now weird, given newly established back stories.

    “Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. You also saved my life that one time and refused to leave me behind or let me go no matter what, but please don’t do that this time. For one thing, the Empire will probably just execute me this time or use me as bait, and I also need you to bring these plans to Alderaan… wait, Stormtroopers are here, gotta go.”

    Perhaps a bit over the top, but that’s it essentially. Would reminding Kenobi of that personal connection make him more or less likely to drop everything to save her? Because I don’t think it she wanted to make it about her at all.
  • LordDirt
    3330 posts Member
    edited June 19
    Her speech in New Hope seems like it is coming from someone without any knowledge of the person she is sending the message to.

    “General Kenobi. Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father’s request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack, and I’m afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You’re my only hope.”

    Forget the gear crunch, why can't we sim the Sith raid yet?
  • Character choices are not plot holes. She could be minimizing her connection to Ben to remove a potential weakness that could be exploited by Vader.
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    edited June 20
    Screerider wrote: »
    Character choices are not plot holes. She could be minimizing her connection to Ben to remove a potential weakness that could be exploited by Vader.

    That doesnt work. She knows shes being captured and vader knows she was kidnapped 9 years earlier by his inquisitors to draw out kenobi.

    Lets look at the original subtext of the scene. Leia is seeking a jedi master who helped her father, shes about to be captured by vader and knows it... and she has the death star plans and needs them to get to the rebels via alderaan.

    That doesnt change because of the kenobi show. R2 still knows kenobi is on tatooine. He still has a message that confirms alderaan is a rebel supporting planet and his capture will tip vader off to those things... literally none of that changes..... and vader already knew leia was a traitor and tells her so.

    What does change is exactly what LordDirt said, her message shows she has no connection to him when infact she does and its a pretty special one. Again, Kenobi show already established Vader knows kenobi is alive and that the inquistors kidnapped bales daughter to flush him out. Everything else thats relevant is in the original message and capturing R2 still gives him all the same information as the original scene. Likewise with the new show, vader goes into the scene already knowing leia and kenobi have a history... he just doesnt know the real reason Bale called Kenobi.

    Making the message more personal doesnt change whats at stake, shes not hiding anyting from vader by not acknowledging the earlier misadventure. Vader doesnt gain leverage that he wouldnt already have if he found R2 with the jawas before owen bought him.... and it makes no sense for her to speak in such a way. Nor is it explained in New Hope that she was trying to trick anyone.

    Having a personal touch doesnt take away from the stakes and makes a lot more sense given that the last interaction kenobi had with the Organa family is now not 19 years ago, but instead was 9 years ago

    Post edited by ShaggyB on
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    Of course her memory getting wiped would solve all this....
  • Except Vader would know and would just recapture Leia at earliest convenience to draw Kenobi out again.
  • LordDirt
    3330 posts Member
    Very curious why DV wouldnt go capture Leia in the next 9 years.
    Forget the gear crunch, why can't we sim the Sith raid yet?
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    edited June 21
    Screerider wrote: »
    Except Vader would know and would just recapture Leia at earliest convenience to draw Kenobi out again.

    Yep he should... just like he should have pulled kenobi through the flames. I mean he can pull down his ship why not him through flames instead of letting a droid take him away.

    Again the story has issues, but thats not really the point here.

    Leia has no reason now to deliver the old help me obi wan message in the way she did to R2.
  • Eh, it's been some time. They probably haven't kept in touch.
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    Screerider wrote: »
    Eh, it's been some time. They probably haven't kept in touch.

    So you are saying that not seeing someone in forever means tou approach them like youve never met them before... telling them your dad asked you to contact them?

    Seems reasonable
  • We did see in Rogue One is was Bail who initiated the reach out to Obi Wan.
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    edited June 21
    Screerider wrote: »
    We did see in Rogue One is was Bail who initiated the reach out to Obi Wan.

    Sure... doesnt change that his daughter has a relationship with the guy he wants her to go get.

    Again her intention was to get the plans to alderaan along with kenobi. She just doesnt make it past tatooine.

    Its not like bail says he will send leia to go send kenobi a droid and the plans.

    He sends her to fetch him, now likely because of the connection they have. Would be hard for him to say no to the girl he saved already.

    Sadly vader overtakes them and she has to default to her own back up plane of sending r2 down with the plans, in hopes that obi wan will deliver them safely.

    But she does in a super weird way because of this show. She ignores her connection, by bringing up an event in the past from 19 years ago instead of the one 9 years ago that kenobi would easily remember.
  • I'm pretty sure she didn't need to bring up either event, since Kenobi and Bail's connection was known to the three of them by this point. More likely, it was to drop the "Clone Wars" background into the movie. More of an issue with the original script, then what "Kenobi" is doing.
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    Screerider wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure she didn't need to bring up either event, since Kenobi and Bail's connection was known to the three of them by this point. More likely, it was to drop the "Clone Wars" background into the movie. More of an issue with the original script, then what "Kenobi" is doing.

    The issue with that is the new hope script is what you have to build around. Thats your foundation. You have to respect it as such or your plot becomes a retcon.

    So, Yes in the 70s New Hope used the lines to drop a hint at a previous war the jedi had done something amazing in, specifically obi wan. The lines setup that hes something special.

    Zip ahead to attack of the clones, clone wars show and revenge of the sith... and lucas /crew had to deliver on something that made her comments make sense without retconning them.

    Aka war had to be about clones in the name and to some degree a part of it (whether it was clone troopers or people fighting clones of themselves.. it had to fit the lines) and kenobi had to serve bale in some way

    Kenobi did help bale quite a bit, as a senator of the republic... thats serving him... and we then see that bale helps kenobi get into hiding.

    Lucas fullfils the previous established story without the need to edit it.

    Rogue one... same deal. The death star 1 plans are not established to be stollen by anyone in a movie. The foundation for their theft isnt too clear except that vader says the transmission was beemed to leia ship.

    So story wise, 1. we knew everyone would die, because living would make them huge heroes in the rebellion and it would be weird not to have them around at battle of yavin them. 2. We knew they were getting beemed to a ship

    Rogue one puts leia's ship docked in Raddus's ship... which checks box 2... though its not exact, it works from "a certain point of view". And box 1 is checked because rogue one all die. So they can be remembered as heroes but arent around to be held up and actively spoken of.

    Again preserves the foundation of lines in the established continuity that came before the prequil style story without creating a retcon, which makes a plot hole if you dont do a retcon.

    Example Lucas kills padme in childbirth, but leia remembers her mom being sad and dien when she was very young... leia sees padme for 3 seconds.

    Ploy hole formed as it tetcons a line in jedi but jedi isnt changed.


    Kenobi show does the same thing. It goes, we cant have too much kenobi and luke because luke thinks old ben is a hermit... so he vaguely knows of him.

    Lets use leia. Shes got an interesting role thats never been seen.

    The problem is they didnt look at previously established lines leia says that they had to take into account. LIKE "help me obi wan kenobi' speach. They went too deep on the kenobi connection to leia. Now previous dialogue doesnt really work without sounding weird due to the basic story the show did. It now requires a small adjustment to new hope, aka a retcon.... or it creates a plot hole.
  • Fieldgulls
    251 posts Member
    edited June 21
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure she didn't need to bring up either event, since Kenobi and Bail's connection was known to the three of them by this point. More likely, it was to drop the "Clone Wars" background into the movie. More of an issue with the original script, then what "Kenobi" is doing.

    The issue with that is the new hope script is what you have to build around. Thats your foundation. You have to respect it as such or your plot becomes a retcon.

    So, Yes in the 70s New Hope used the lines to drop a hint at a previous war the jedi had done something amazing in, specifically obi wan. The lines setup that hes something special.

    Zip ahead to attack of the clones, clone wars show and revenge of the sith... and lucas /crew had to deliver on something that made her comments make sense without retconning them.

    Aka war had to be about clones in the name and to some degree a part of it (whether it was clone troopers or people fighting clones of themselves.. it had to fit the lines) and kenobi had to serve bale in some way

    Kenobi did help bale quite a bit, as a senator of the republic... thats serving him... and we then see that bale helps kenobi get into hiding.

    Lucas fullfils the previous established story without the need to edit it.

    Rogue one... same deal. The death star 1 plans are not established to be stollen by anyone in a movie. The foundation for their theft isnt too clear except that vader says the transmission was beemed to leia ship.

    So story wise, 1. we knew everyone would die, because living would make them huge heroes in the rebellion and it would be weird not to have them around at battle of yavin them. 2. We knew they were getting beemed to a ship

    Rogue one puts leia's ship docked in Raddus's ship... which checks box 2... though its not exact, it works from "a certain point of view". And box 1 is checked because rogue one all die. So they can be remembered as heroes but arent around to be held up and actively spoken of.

    Again preserves the foundation of lines in the established continuity that came before the prequil style story without creating a retcon, which makes a plot hole if you dont do a retcon.

    Example Lucas kills padme in childbirth, but leia remembers her mom being sad and dien when she was very young... leia sees padme for 3 seconds.

    Ploy hole formed as it tetcons a line in jedi but jedi isnt changed.


    Kenobi show does the same thing. It goes, we cant have too much kenobi and luke because luke thinks old ben is a hermit... so he vaguely knows of him.

    Lets use leia. Shes got an interesting role thats never been seen.

    The problem is they didnt look at previously established lines leia says that they had to take into account. LIKE "help me obi wan kenobi' speach. They went too deep on the kenobi connection to leia. Now previous dialogue doesnt really work without sounding weird due to the basic story the show did. It now requires a small adjustment to new hope, aka a retcon.... or it creates a plot hole.

    However, what they are using is when Luke is on the Death Star trying to save Leia…Luke tells Leia he is with Ben Kenobi and has R2….she lights up like a Christmas Tree. That is how they’re tying it together…not the more proper worded message that Leia makes for R2. Outside of the last name Kenobi did she know Ben and Obi Wan were the same person? This series establishes that point.
  • LordDirt
    3330 posts Member
    Leia is happy that Ben is there because he is to save them from the Empire. Has nothing to do with a previous relationship.
    Forget the gear crunch, why can't we sim the Sith raid yet?
  • LordDirt wrote: »
    Leia is happy that Ben is there because he is to save them from the Empire. Has nothing to do with a previous relationship.
    Yes, in 1977…not 2022
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    Fieldgulls wrote: »
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure she didn't need to bring up either event, since Kenobi and Bail's connection was known to the three of them by this point. More likely, it was to drop the "Clone Wars" background into the movie. More of an issue with the original script, then what "Kenobi" is doing.

    The issue with that is the new hope script is what you have to build around. Thats your foundation. You have to respect it as such or your plot becomes a retcon.

    So, Yes in the 70s New Hope used the lines to drop a hint at a previous war the jedi had done something amazing in, specifically obi wan. The lines setup that hes something special.

    Zip ahead to attack of the clones, clone wars show and revenge of the sith... and lucas /crew had to deliver on something that made her comments make sense without retconning them.

    Aka war had to be about clones in the name and to some degree a part of it (whether it was clone troopers or people fighting clones of themselves.. it had to fit the lines) and kenobi had to serve bale in some way

    Kenobi did help bale quite a bit, as a senator of the republic... thats serving him... and we then see that bale helps kenobi get into hiding.

    Lucas fullfils the previous established story without the need to edit it.

    Rogue one... same deal. The death star 1 plans are not established to be stollen by anyone in a movie. The foundation for their theft isnt too clear except that vader says the transmission was beemed to leia ship.

    So story wise, 1. we knew everyone would die, because living would make them huge heroes in the rebellion and it would be weird not to have them around at battle of yavin them. 2. We knew they were getting beemed to a ship

    Rogue one puts leia's ship docked in Raddus's ship... which checks box 2... though its not exact, it works from "a certain point of view". And box 1 is checked because rogue one all die. So they can be remembered as heroes but arent around to be held up and actively spoken of.

    Again preserves the foundation of lines in the established continuity that came before the prequil style story without creating a retcon, which makes a plot hole if you dont do a retcon.

    Example Lucas kills padme in childbirth, but leia remembers her mom being sad and dien when she was very young... leia sees padme for 3 seconds.

    Ploy hole formed as it tetcons a line in jedi but jedi isnt changed.


    Kenobi show does the same thing. It goes, we cant have too much kenobi and luke because luke thinks old ben is a hermit... so he vaguely knows of him.

    Lets use leia. Shes got an interesting role thats never been seen.

    The problem is they didnt look at previously established lines leia says that they had to take into account. LIKE "help me obi wan kenobi' speach. They went too deep on the kenobi connection to leia. Now previous dialogue doesnt really work without sounding weird due to the basic story the show did. It now requires a small adjustment to new hope, aka a retcon.... or it creates a plot hole.

    However, what they are using is when Luke is on the Death Star trying to save Leia…Luke tells Leia he is with Ben Kenobi and has R2….she lights up like a Christmas Tree. That is how they’re tying it together…not the more proper worded message that Leia makes for R2. Outside of the last name Kenobi did she know Ben and Obi Wan were the same person? This series establishes that point.

    Except that furthers the problem with her not addressing him directly in the r2 message.

    Why would she hide that in the message and then be super stoked to hear hes there... she also isnt that upset hes dead a little while later. The problem is that the show has them form a bond and interact way too much for it to work as is

    Again too much kenobi and leia tweaks a new hope in ways the dialogue and plot there cannot withstand

    And yes she knows ben = obi wan because he keeps getting called obi wan right in front of her. Shes heard him called obi wan by people trying to both help and kill him. Shes heard him correct a few to call him ben.
  • She probably expected an awkward re-introduction, somewhere from his not remembering up to "Oh Leia, you'll always be that little girl I knew in the Fortress Inquisitorious."
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    Screerider wrote: »
    She probably expected an awkward re-introduction, somewhere from his not remembering up to "Oh Leia, you'll always be that little girl I knew in the Fortress Inquisitorious."

    Not remembering?? You are kidding right?

    You dont really think obi wan doesnt know who one of anakins kids is... even before kenobi show added the personal connection.

    Thats the issue. Kenobi show adds a personal connection beyween two charcters who would have known of each other via the past for kenobi and bale saying something to leia. The original scenes are built aroun leia knowing of kenobi, not atcually knowing him or having an adventure with him.

    And to be honest until yoda's line in empire, ben's lines work as if hed never met her or know of her.... but with empire and jedi, he knows who she is the whole time. His dialogue supports that as hes coy with luke to begin with, so it works still.

    This breaks it.

    Still hopen for mind wipe / memory erase
  • LordDirt
    3330 posts Member
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    ... she also isnt that upset hes dead a little while later. The problem is that the show has them form a bond and interact way too much for it to work as is

    It is funny how she really doesnt care Ben is dead yet Luke is really bummed. Plus he is the one who cared about the fight going on between Ben and DV on the deathstar and not Leia.

    Why doesnt anyone have an issue with Bale’s dumb message. Why would he do that?
    pwdzwgtsclmq.jpeg
    Forget the gear crunch, why can't we sim the Sith raid yet?
  • ShaggyB wrote: »

    Not remembering?? You are kidding right?

    You dont really think obi wan doesnt know who one of anakins kids is... even before kenobi show added the personal connection.
    In A New Hope. I don't believe Leia is aware she is one of Anakin's kids.

  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    edited June 23
    Screerider wrote: »
    ShaggyB wrote: »

    Not remembering?? You are kidding right?

    You dont really think obi wan doesnt know who one of anakins kids is... even before kenobi show added the personal connection.
    In A New Hope. I don't believe Leia is aware she is one of Anakin's kids.

    Your point?

    Mine is that obi wan does know who she is really, which means he wont ever forget the time he saved her.
  • I was referring to Leia's expectations, not Kenobi's knowledge.
  • ShaggyB
    2281 posts Member
    Screerider wrote: »
    I was referring to Leia's expectations, not Kenobi's knowledge.

    Still failing to see the relevance.

    The comment i quited was you suggesting leia would expect kenobi not to remember her.... but kenobi knowing shes one of vaders kids wouldnt ever forget her.
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