[VIDEO] JeDi vs Dooku drama
Since many just love to describe the new Dooku teams as "unbeatable" I feel compelled to post a video now and then, proving that you can play several different teams and be successful at the top of the game.
This was a fun and even battle. The opponent got good RNG and I frankly didn't. Which just goes a long way to prove what I've always said: The meta is a lie, and any well composed team has a chance to succeed.
https://youtu.be/ZxmRVNQzJnw
This was a fun and even battle. The opponent got good RNG and I frankly didn't. Which just goes a long way to prove what I've always said: The meta is a lie, and any well composed team has a chance to succeed.
https://youtu.be/ZxmRVNQzJnw 0
Replies
If the AI focused fire on any one of Jedi, your team will be easily crushed.
If you got some balls, post a video of your team on auto winning the AI who is also on auto.
Hello there again. I see you've taken a liking to criticizing my videos, while claiming it's a waste of time to watch them. Well then, my first suggestion would be to stop watching.
I regret to inform you that the AI generally doesn't focus fire toons, unless they're healers or low on HP. So your scenario lacks a little in realism. I prefer to go with how it actually works.
@HelloHey You made my day. Be constructive, make suggestions, but stop criticizing people for sharing their ideas. Some people not using current meta toons might be glad to see that Ima teams work, start farming him or continue farming Ima shards again. @Nonemo thank you, i like to see toons in action i haven´t activated yet!
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I'll tell you my experience with it. First time I used it, I dropped from top 10 to 45. But last time I left it overnight I only dropped from 4 to 18. Before that I think I dropped from 10 to 22 or something like that. So it's done surprisingly well on defense actually. Better than I had expected.
So, unless you have personal experience with Jedi counter teams, I'd be careful about making assumptions if I were you. But I'll just leave it overnight and post screenshots of my final rank today and my initial rank tomorrow for you.
If the AI focused fire on any team, anywhere, most of us would lose more matches than we win.
Clearly you are misinformed of the difference between an AI and auto. They are two completely separate things, one makes educated decisions based on teams health and characters (albeit bad decisions) and the other uses abilities the first chance it has.
Back to the topic, good job beating the team, I always struggle with those RG and Daka team even whilst using a Dooku lead myself. Maybe the counter jedi teams will see more use after this week.
What a **** ****.
Hey @Kelthuzad ! I think you're the first I've seen from my shard!
At least see this for what it is man. If you think this was bad rng for you... idk what to tell you. Bad rng against a Dooku team is him double stunning QGJ + 1 before they move, followed by 4 straight dodges (which is far more common than it should be), which ends in 3 of your chars dead before you can even move once.
Good Job anyway ! Was nice watching.
Qgj lead
Lumi
Ahsoka
Yoda
Anakin
Now i said QGJ is the most efficient meta for offense. Does he need a nerf? No...because he doesn't pose much problems if he is in defense. What would happen if QGJ gets nerfed and Dooku stays the same? People that are smart and don't hate Dooku as much as i do, will farm for him and you only see Dooku in arena as leader. He will be the supreme leader! He already is in 90% of the shards in top 20, just wait if QGJ gets nerfed!
I was going to write a long and elaborate response, refuting your claims of my ignorance and presenting an alternative viewpoint regarding the concept of "meta" and the overarching discussion about Dooku. But then I ran out of energy. Here's my attempt at least.
The way I see it, we approach this from two entirely different angles. I criticize concepts you take for granted, such as "meta". I theorize that there are team compositions that will be more or less efficient against other team compositions, according to a very intricate rock-paper-scissors model rather than in the way of one team being simply "better" than all the others.
Presently, at best 10 of 77 available toons are represented in the top Arena. What you describe as "meta" is simply the team that is most efficient versus any composition of these ten characters. That's why introducing and trying out previously underrepresented characters is crucial, not just for a single player but for the benefit of the gaming community as a whole.
With regards to the battle in the video, I'll try to get around to some real counting of the different procs in it and see if my initial assessment of the way the procs leaned was correct.
I got dropped fairly hard in Arena overnight, in fact much harder than the last time I used this team. Then I didn't drop out of top 20. Now I dropped to 55.
-His GS calls in rey for assist, you DODGE her attack. Btw, it wasn't on the would-be-dead qui-gon (insanely useful character), but on the infinite pool of hp that is ashoka.
-His team doesn't dodge a single attack on the first nor second turn. Only one in the third, and isn't on his DPS chars but on Dooku. 1/15 is less than half of what 15% offers.
-The AI keeps changing targets until your RG triggers.
-Dooku's first lightning stuns one character, his second none.
-His first RG stun gets resisted before yoda's buff goes up.
-His Rey uses her most damaging attack against a red-life RG.
-Ashoka scores 3 crits in a row, in her first 3 attacks, one being a 35% chance at a counterattack.
Yeah, sure, RNG was totally on their side and not on yours. You played as you had to play to win, so it's hard to provide any constructive criticism, but that team would have trampled you a lot more often than this video wants to show, and I'm fairly confident that, on defense, that very same team wins against yours 95% of the time. (I have a similar team and have won against ima-gun-di teams without even needing to get offense-up-dodges).
I would have gone with yoda's battle meditation on the second turn, to avoid giving more opportunities to RG/Dooku to do any damage (a.k.a. stuns). You got greedy to try to give foresight and even offense up and it paid off, but due to the misplays from the AI. You capitalized on those misplays well though, well done.
Btw, a video that shows one win against a dooku's team doesn't mean anything, nor that the "meta" is a lie. You might as well post a video with an ewok team doing the same thing (and it's possible). The "meta" is what everyone is playing. Go to your leaderboard and count the amount of dookus. If it's over 50% in the top 50-100, then dooku is the meta, independently of it being beatable or not. QGJ (L) + Yoda beats any dooku team 90+% of the time. It's just terrible in defense, because how the AI plays it.
You say you dropped to 55, yea of course. What did you expect? Your team, while much stronger than mine, is average in both offense and defense overall. Now swap Dooku for Ima-Gun Di see how many spots you drop then. Just that simple swap and you will drop less spots. Meta! It's not a concept in Dooku's case. Tell me of another leader that can do what he does at the magnitude that he does. And i am not talking about team comps here, just single characters. There you go...you can't name any ==> most unbalanced toon in the game! I do not know why you can't see this to be honest! It's as clear as daylight to me.
I am only replying to you so much, because from your posts you sound rational to me. I wouldn't bother if you were one of those 'dooku is fine learn to play' noobs. The people that say this, think that you can't beat Dooku teams and that is not the point i am arguing. So hopefully, you see my points.
You're implying that I didn't try any meta teams. I did. My maxed Dooku/RG/Daka only dropped from 2 to 22 overnight last time I used it. But then, the last time I tried to leave the JeDi team overnight I woke up at 16. So the Dooku team dropped me farther than the JeDi team. That particular time.
In fact, I've experimented a lot. I dare say more than most. You can lean on whatever somebody else in the forum tells you, I'll be better off to verify things for myself. And you provide exactly zero facts that back your claims here. More battles won't make a 15% dodge rate change into anything else than a 15% dodge rate. More battles would just lead to... More battles. More attempts at one opponent, meaning more mobility in the arena, meaning a harder time to keep one's position, meaning you gotta battle more to keep it.
Finally, besides for your declaration of Dooku meaning dropping less spots and being THE best defensive leader (which isn't even necessarily correct... Your claim, so you back it up with data - preferably something better than hearsay), you also fail to take into consideration secondary factors, such as people targeting the "odd" teams and avoiding the Dooku teams because of superstitions about AI and RNG. Instead of these aggressive attempts at talking down to me, you could spend some time doing your own research.
I run qgj lead of defense, never switch teams.
I usually just drop from 1-3 to 12-16.
Ok, I did a breakdown for you. Not the way I planned to spend Sunday afternoon, but I hate leaving stuff hanging.
I want to make a point about the AI targeting system: AI almost always changes targets unless they're low on HP or healers. This is not lucky RNG, but the way the AI works.
Ahsoka does crit 75% of her attacks this battle, which is very standard for the highest crit rate in the game (with a +10% crit rate unique ability).
Dodge rate for Dooku team is 5 dodge out of 23 possible, setting their dodge rate at 21,7% (Dooku grants 15% dodge, and I'm guessing there's a native natural dodge chance of ~5% too, so - fairly standard).
Counter rate for Di team is 2 counters out of 12 possible, setting the counter attack rate at 16,7% (Di grants 35% counter rate - so this is WAY below what it should have been).
Finally, here's the breakdown of all crits and ability procs (plus percentage chance of happening) that went off in the battle. Looking at it all, I hold to that the RNG didn't favor me at all. Happy reading.
Dooku stuns (90%)
Yoda turn meter reduction fails (35%)
Ahsoka dodges
RG stuns (80%)
Daka doesn't stun (40%)
Ahsoka crits
Ahsoka counters (35%)
Ahsoka crits
Dooku stuns QGJ (35%)
GS crits
Ahsoka crits
Daka stuns RG (40%)
Di crits
GS crits
Dooku dodges (15%)
Dooku 2x attack (50%)
Rey crits
RG dodges (15%)
Dooku crits
Yoda AOE 1 crit
QGJ resists
QGJ crits
Rey dodges (15%)
Ahsoka crits (80%)
Daka stun (60%)
QGJ resists
Dooku 2x attack (50%)
GS dodges (15%)
GS revives (10%)
Yoda AOE 1 crit
Dooku 2x attack (50%)
Dooku crit
Daka stun (60%)
Dooku 2x attack
Daka dodges (15%)
Dooku crits
Dooku stuns (90%)
Daka crits
Dooku ability locks (35%)
Dooku ability locks (35%)
Yoda counter attacks (35%)
Yoda dodges
Dooku 2x attack (50%)
Dooku stun (35%)
Dooku ability lock (35%)
Dooku crit
I generally like your posts when you chime in; but I gotta throw the **** card out on this one. Everyone loses now and then due to bad RNG. Increase the amount of RNG present in the match and you increase your odds of losing to it. It's why Dooku is so prevalent as a leader.
Any way, @Nonemo I don't think many people have been arguing that Dooku lead is unbeatable. Most, including myself, are against RNG having such a major role in matches. There's a fine line between having RNG that represents the reality of unpredictable circumstances in an "actual" match compared to simply pushing buttons and hoping the rolls are on your side. RNG was definitely on your side this time.
I know you're not convinced that Dooku is the best leader, and that's fine; we're all welcome to our opinions. However, one of the biggest factors that impacts the outcome of any match is predictability. If you can predict the AI's moves (which is many case is easy to do) you can quickly formulate a plan to counter it. Whether that means adjusting your squad prior to the match or your kill/ability order, predictability is key. What throws a monkey wrench in all that, and destroys well laid plans is unpredictable occurrences that counter your move. RNG represents this.
This issue is further compounded by the result of a negative roll which leads to offense up. Not only do you lose damage done by a bad roll, but you receive increased damage in return. You couldn't have a more perfect combination of events in the current meta.
I did enjoy your video though. It's always fun to watch a team from off the beaten path in action. All of this is likely to change in the next week, so this will be moot anyway. Hopefully it does change, because things are currently very boring.
@Arube playing on auto is exactly the way you'd see how your team would play on defense with AI control. The mechanic that controls he AI's behavior is exactly the same.
This. I can beat the meta with my Jedi team, but I drop like a rock and can't hold my spot because of the defense.
Actually, it may not be just because the Jedi are bad on defense, it may be because I get attacked more often because I'm not meta.
I'd like to suggest that the RNG per se maybe isn't the big issue. A certain amount of randomness in the battles is a good thing. The problem is that, due to the very high damage output of a few over-used characters, the stakes are extremely high, and one bad roll can tip the battle either way. One dodge on their side can mean the loss of your most valuable toon in the next move. A series of dodges can easily cost you the entire battle.
My theoretical approach to this so far has been to try and minimize these stakes by exploring high HP and turn manipulation characters, either soaking damage up or denying opponents a chance to capitalize on this RNG. It has worked well enough, although I'm told by other players on my shard that for instance my Clone team is rather easy to beat when played by the AI. Since I usually don't have a problem ranking in top 10 anyway, it doesn't bother me too badly. But it does say a lot about which kinds of team work well on defense and which kinds don't.
(As for RNG, I did a breakdown in a previous post. My counter attack rate was way low, and contributed a lot to the way the battle played out. I believe many players watching this forget to account for the procs that should happen but don't - my leadership skill was almost entirely unused in the whole battle)
I also agree that things are boring presently. Any time I use a meta team I start questioning why I even care about the game. Constant experimentation is what keeps it fresh for me.
@Telaan, it is not actually, if you were to put a low level team in GW, Sid would often refuse to use his AoE and would simply attack a character to one-shot him. However, if you were up against a low level team on auto, your Sid would use his AoE if available. If I think or see a better example I'll be sure to share it.
Lol, if I spent all my time losing in the Arena it would be hard to rank well. Otoh this is just one of several teams I like to play. I find it to work better vs QGJ led teams than vs Dooku teams such as this though. My other main team is Clone turn manipulation. It does better vs Dooku, but worse vs QGJ.
AI doesn't take the same action 100% of the time; there's an element of RNG involved combined with some triggers such as level, taunt present, etc. It's why sometimes Sid uses his AOE and other times he doesn't. It's also why sometimes Yoda uses bm first move and others he doesn't. However the mechanics governing AI doesn't change just because of offense vs defense just as in the same vein there's no difference in RNG rolls (i.e.: increased proc chances) between offense and defense.