Remember, back in the good old days, when everyone was using Barriss as their PvP leader?

2Next

Replies

  • Skye
    794 posts Member
    I always found it odd when people kept saying Barriss was OP because too many people were using her as leader... One of the dumbest arguements I ever heard....

    The reason being is if you look at all other leadership abilities, many of them are very restrictive. Take for example many of the darkside leaders, aside Sidious, Phasma and Dooku, virtually all of them only benefit one very particular group. So no one ever uses them because more often than not they don't have the team members to maximise the benefit for them

    You look at many of the abilities on the arena leaderboard, its very rare you see a Ventress or QGJ leader, not because they are hard to get in the case of QGJ but because their leadership ability only impacts one group.. Nightsisters or Jedi in these examples. Having a Jedi leader like QGI is asking people to attack them with an Anti Jedi group.... If players don't spend money on the game it's moderately difficult to build up a team that maximises the use of these leadership abilities.

    More often than not when you look at a leadership ability on the board, it impacts a wide range of characters and not just one group of characters.

    Look at Tarkin for example, yay for speed increase on Empire characters! Erm.. hold on.. are there even enough Empire characters to make a full team? (yes there is) but not enough to provide much strategy.. Same reason why no one ever uses Vader as a leader, cause there aren't enough Empire characters to warrant his use as leader... Any anyone who uses these leaders, instantly lets the opponent know that there is a very high chance they are facing a Empire only team... Thus giving away a vital strategic advantage to the attacker... Don't being any Rebels!

    This is why leaders like Barriss were used heavily because they help anybody and not just jedi. Jedi get max bonus but at least other groups aren't hurt by it...

    There are far too many leadership abilities that are too restrictive in their use by comparission and thus worthless...

    Just cause one ability is overused doens't mean it's overpowered. It could also possibly mean the other options available are far too weak to be used.

    As always it's easier to fix one thing than two dozen other things...

    Former crazy person of the guild "Shard Awakens"... *quit game 13th July 2016*

    Game used to be fun when it wasn't a grind... if I wanted a grind I would have went and played old school Everquest or some Korean MMO!
  • Qeltar wrote: »
    This was used as justification for her nerfing.
    I remember EA selling Barriss pack for $49 and it was a month ago.


  • Started playing the third week of December, she is the leader of more teams in the top 20 of my PVP leaderboard than anyone else. Her heal - or rather the equalisation aspect of it - can still be a nightmare when you are trying to focus on taking down one character first.

    She may not be the character she was before - I wasn't around for that so I genuinely have no idea. But she is still someone I covet
  • barris is not weak i still wish i had her and i would use her over luminara atleast until lumi is 7 star
  • Destark wrote: »
    Cpt_Dan wrote: »
    She's the leader of numbers 2, 4, and 8 on my server (a week or two past level 60)

    I stil find a few of the f2p builds annoying. I don't see teams with the crazy spenders besides one guy with a 7* old Ben. (Still an easy match)

    lol We are on the same server, whats your time zone bud? The old Ben guy you are mentioning is Warhammer right? ( Not full name, for his privacy ) Im so jealous of his Aayla and Kit Fisto :P His Ben is only 5* , but he has a 6* QGJ which he never uses, kinda weird

    Yep. Same server. My time zone is pst but I work odd hours so it varies. I've hit your team a few times and it's one of the better ones.

    I don't do much of the snipe war. I usually push up to top 5/10 and then slide back to top 20.
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    Glad that most of you get the point here. At the time the Barriss complaints began in earnest, many of the soft-launchers repeatedly said that Barriss was not OP and was barely visible at end game on their server shards. They were ignored. They were right.
    Now with her severely nerfed, she gets dropped even faster.
    The current meta makes defensive teams close to unviable, and Barriss's excessive nerf is one of the reasons why. I like playing defensive/healing teams, but there simply is no way to be competitive now thanks to the combination of Barriss's nerf, the buffing done to high-damage characters, and the introduction of more characters that do high damage.
    CG admits regreting the nerfing of a lead character in a package, which is great. I hope that at least secretly they also accept that this severe reduction in her main heal was never really needed in the first place.
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • This is why, at least until we are at a high percentage of the roster being built, that anyone that posts some "OP / nerf" thread the community should pounce on it hard. Even before the nerf I was planning an exit of Barriss for my PVP team because she didn't bring enough offense. I ended up in too many draws - she helped me not lose (DRAW), but didn't really help me win. She's a turtle and PVP isn't made for turtles.

    Healing as a main PVP tactic is like SW 101 PVP team. It's your entry level approach. She seemed OP at that time because she was the best healer in the "Healer 101" version of SW that we were in after 10 days and she came insta-baked to 4*, which put her ahead of many toons that we got for free that were 1/2/3 star. Now though, with more characters unlocked, it's pretty clear in hindsight how ridiculous her being nerfed was. Heal is all but gone from most PVP teams and if you're slow you're getting your rear end handed to you - you need fast damage. Barriss is like the anti-PVP toon - slow, low damage, and burns a turn on healing if you're utilizing her best skill.

    CG/EA clearly panicked based on a wave of bad information way too early in the game's lifecycle.

    Lesson learned: fight back hard against the nerf bunnies that pop up....hit them in their threads like whack a mole. If you stay silent it may result in adverse action that is completely unnecessary.
  • Usage argument:

    Also, want to post in general on this usage argument: "If something is used so much that means it must be OP" ... this was often used for support of nerfing Barriss since she was so prevalent at that time. That may apply to a mature game, but not in a game that is just starting like this one. High usage now just means really that it's the best thing on most people's rosters that is currently built and available to be built at this time. Phasma is high on the leader board now, many use her. She's not OP though - but she's a good toon that's an easy farm. If suddenly everyone had all 71 toons on their rosters and fully built, you would not be seeing the same toons we see at all right now.

    If you're seeing a toon a lot and losing to it, just be patient. Your roster will get better. That toon will get replaced. Come to the forums and ask other players for help on heroes to target. Please everyone just stop with the nerf / OP stuff. Even if everyone did have full 71 toon rosters we still don't know what is end game OP because we aren't there yet - we have multiple iterations of level cap to go through yet.
  • Jsnazz
    349 posts Member
    I believe any heroes that get to farm to 7 stars healer is always better than a 4 stars.

  • She's used a lot on my server (a server which opened about 2 weeks ago) atm my 4* Lumi dies way too quickly, if I farm her to 5* and build up her gear does she become much more useful than Barriss?
  • Benr3600 wrote: »
    Barriss is the leader of the #1 and #10 teams on my server. I have faced her many times, never as a leader, in my 50-100 bracket. Guess what, she still dumps on Sidious who is on 98% of teams and still has the best heal in the game and is still the tankiest hero in the game. I loathe seeing her as much as I did seeing Kylo in the hands of players in the 40 levels.

    I am sorry you thought "now if I just spend $50 I can ride this biss to the promised land" and found out you are less skilled than the leaders on my server. The F2P guys are playing the world's smallest violin I can assure you.

    Anyone that is lvl 60, with a big roster of character, highly starred and geared, and into the meta of PvP do not use barriss at all. Even if barriss wasn't nerfed, I really don't think much would be useing her now.

    The game has shifted. You have characters out now that can one shot characters. It's now all about heavy hitters and speed. You need your characters to go before the other teams does as pretty much whoever goes first wins.

    I used barriss for the longest as my leader for health buff. Once my phasma got 6* I switched and my form is 100% better because of it. Outside health buff she does nothing and I believe lumi is actually better leader ability than barriss, I just never improved lumis leader ability.

    1 person in my bracket has barriss as his leader. This is the person I was having my most competition with in getting 1st. Now he is falling behind, and I'm guessing it's because the ai is beating him.

    Heal immunity is no longer an issue as its gotten to where most will not live long enough to even get healed.

    Qgj, Leia, FOTP, and daka I see more of than anyone else

    Phasma, han, poe are becoming important characters. And if I have to explain why these 3 are important, then you are not in the meta game.

    If you take out any of the above listed for barriss, then your hurting yourself.
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Breetai wrote: »
    The game has shifted. You have characters out now that can one shot characters. It's now all about heavy hitters and speed. You need your characters to go before the other teams does as pretty much whoever goes first wins.
    This itself is a sign of MAJOR design problems with the game. A good game should be more like "rock-paper-scissors" and not just "rock-scissors".
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • Aeris
    29 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    I have been farming barris shards, so I want to spend time writing a detailed analysis of current Barris so she may be buffed accordingly in next update:

    I. Low damage
    II. High threat then, zero threat now.
    III. Possible Solution


    I. Low damage:

    Barris 5* level 60, gearVII : 800 damage basic attack, critical hit chance 20%.
    No special attack ability.
    Total average damage per turn: 800+800*50%*20%=880 damage

    Luminara 5* level 60, gearVII: 1400 damage basic attack, critical hit chance 35%.
    Special attack ability: 2000-3000 damage(cool-down 3 turn)
    Total average damage per turn: 1400+1400*50%*35%+2500/3= 2478.3 damage

    Talia 5* level 60, gearVII: 1100 damage basic attack, critical hit chance 20%.
    Special attack ability: 1400-1800 (cool-down 3 turn)
    Total average damage per turn: 1100+1100*50%*20%+1600/3= 1743.3 damage

    Jedi consoler 5* level 60, gear VII: 1100 damage basic attack, critical hit chance 30%.
    Special attack ability: 1400-1800 damage(cool-down 2 turn)
    Total average damage per turn: 1100+1100*50%*30%+1600/2=2065 damage.

    II. High threat then:
    Despite her lack of damage output in late game, her main threat one month ago before her nerf was her excellent healing ability and her high health ratio to those of majority of toons as well as low dps of majority of toons at 4*:

    A. her healing abilities heal team well:
    1. equalizing + 30% team health healed.
    2. basic attack heal for 10% health of Barris, which was a lot of healing, equaling to 22% of team health Back Then, When Team Health Was Low.
    3. Leader ability heal for 6% health of Barris, equaling to 13.2% of team health back then.

    B. her health is hard to take down owing to
    1. her health at 4* (10k) has high ratio to health of majority at 4*( 3k-6k): average 2.5 times
    2. low dps of majority of toons at 4*(800-1500): it takes minimum 7 hits, average 9-10 hits to take her down owing to her health and 3 more hits owing to her healing.

    Total hits to take her down: minimum 9 hits, average 12-13 hits,

    Zero threat now:
    Now, almost one month later, Barris not only lack damage output in current late game,
    but also no longer has any threat now that

    A. her healing abilities heal team much less than before:
    1. equalizing +12.5% team health healed, comparing to previous 30% team health healed.
    2. basic attack heals for 6% health of Barris, equaling to 9% of team health healed, comparing to previous 22% team health healed.
    3. Leader ability heal for 6% health of Barris, equaling to 9% of team health, comparing to previous 13.2% team health.

    B. her health is not hard to take down anymore owing to
    1. her no-longer-high health ratio at 5* (12k), 6*(14k), 7*(17k) to health of majority of toons at 7*(8k-11k): average 1.5 times
    2. high dps of majority of toons at 7*(2k-6k): it takes minimum 2 hits, average 3 hits to take her down when she is at 5*; minimum 3 hits, average 4 hits to take her down when she is at 6*(14k); minimum 3 hits, average 4-5 hits to take her down when she is at 7*(17k)

    Total hits to take her down: minimum 2-3 hits, average 4-5 hits.

    III. Possible Solution:
    In order for Barris to be on par with many other characters in late game, she either needs a major boost to her basic attack to be 2.2 times her current basic attack damage in order to reach about 75% of total damage of luminara, instead of as of right now, about 34% of total damage of luminara, in order to be on par with luminara in total power since Luminara has about 292.5% more healing amount though about 40% less health.

    or

    needs her healing abilities to heal equal amount to that of Luminara in order to be on par with luminara in total power(Luminara heals for 40%*5 +20%*5+20%*5=400% total team health every 3 turns without being leader, so Barris needs to heal 400% total team health every 3 turns without being leader in order to be on par with luminara in total power):

    Currently Barris has
    1.basic attack healing for 9% team health*5=45% team health every 3 turns
    2.equalizing ability healing for 12.5%*5=62.5% team health every 3 turns.
    3.leader ability healing for 4.5%~9% team health every turn =4.5%~9%*5*3=72.5%~145% team health every 3 turns.
    So, Barris heals total 62.5%+45%= 107.5 % team health every 3 turns, without being leader.

    In order for Barris to be on par with luminara in healing amount, she may need
    1.basic attack healing for 9%*5=45% team health every turn(100% proc chance) instead of every 3 turns(35% proc chance) so that she can heal 45%*3=145% team health every 3 turns.
    2.equalizing ability healing for 12.5%*5=62.5% team health with 1 turn cool-down (available every other turn) instead of 2 turn cool-down(available every 3 turns) so that she can heal in average 62.5%*1.5=93.75% team health every 3 turns.
    3.leader ability no longer require Barris to be leader so that she can heal 4.5%~9%*5*3=72.5%~145% team health every 3 turn without being leader.

    In this way, Barris will heal total 145%+93.75%+72.5%~145%= 311.25%~383.75% team health every 3 turns, without reducing team DPS for being leader, and will also have faster healing and equalizing frequency as every other turn instead of previously every 3 turn(higher healing frequency contribute to higher survival chance), to be certainly at least on par with total healing power of luminara (400% team health) and total power of lumianra.
    Final question: would buffing Barris back to her previous status gain sufficient healing amount for her to be competitive in current late game environment?
    Let's calculate her previous status:
    1. Basic attack heal team 10% Barris health = current 15% team health *5= total 75% team health every 3 turns.
    2. Equalizing healing ability heal team 30% Barris health= 45% current team health*5= total 225% team health every 3 turns.
    So, Barris at her previous status would heal 225%+75%=300% team health every 3 turn without being leader.

    So the answer is that even previous Barris would barely have sufficient healing amount to be competitive in current late game environment.
    In conclusion, Barris needs to be buffed beyond her previous status for her to be competitive in current late game environment.






    Post edited by Aeris on
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    @Aeris - wow, what a phenomenal analysis. And a lot of work. I hope someone from CG sees it.
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • Qeltar wrote: »
    Breetai wrote: »
    The game has shifted. You have characters out now that can one shot characters. It's now all about heavy hitters and speed. You need your characters to go before the other teams does as pretty much whoever goes first wins.
    This itself is a sign of MAJOR design problems with the game. A good game should be more like "rock-paper-scissors" and not just "rock-scissors".

    Rock, good ole rock, nothing beats that.
  • Rock-paper-scissors-nuke. Nuke beats all ( Leia, FOTP, maul )
  • Aeris
    29 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Qeltar wrote: »
    @Aeris - wow, what a phenomenal analysis. And a lot of work. I hope someone from CG sees it.

    Thanks very much, I hope every character such as Barris could be somehow useful in late game :smile:
    I feel sorry for being a bit nerdy though with this long list, plus possible errors and deficiencies at some point in there.
  • Interesting read thankyou no way im touching barris glad i never bothered with her.
    Qui-Gon progress in cantina currently 4* gear lvl 7.
  • @Aeris

    You believe for Barriss to be useful she needs to have the strongest heal and equalize health? That doesn't seem OP to you?
  • Qeltar wrote: »
    Breetai wrote: »
    The game has shifted. You have characters out now that can one shot characters. It's now all about heavy hitters and speed. You need your characters to go before the other teams does as pretty much whoever goes first wins.
    This itself is a sign of MAJOR design problems with the game. A good game should be more like "rock-paper-scissors" and not just "rock-scissors".

    Which is rock and which is scissors?
  • Vampire_X
    1431 posts Moderator
    She was definitely OP, glad she was nerfed. I cant believe you're still crying about this, I mean seriously, I found you less annoying on these forums recently, but you have to be hands down the biggest cry baby on this forum of all time. Get over it.

    She was op for her ability level at that stage of the game because of the level and characters people had, she herself in the meta is not or ever had been OP

    Tiny grimes did a wonderful YouTube that put the debate very well and even showed why she was not good pre or post nerf as a top tier char due to difficulty farming and overall one trick pony status

    Her 4* start level was overly difficult for all new players I think is a fair argument, if they released her today as she was no one would care as much due to so many being lvl60 with 7* char now

    Going forward there will be new powerful char they sell but since they start low it won't disrupte the meta in the same way dooku and Bariss did much like you see with kylo

    Wicked Sith Queen with the Pink Saber
  • I agree she is a bit weak, but given that she is a direct counter to the heal immunity buff I think she is decent. Her damage is trash and her heal is trash except when it is used to redistribute health to someone that is heal immune. I think she could use a small buff to her damage so she does at least 1k+ instead of 600-700
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    pay2win wrote: »
    @Aeris

    You believe for Barriss to be useful she needs to have the strongest heal and equalize health? That doesn't seem OP to you?

    I believe she does need to have the strongest heal. Why? She doesn't do anything else.
    Even before she nerfed, in terms of raw total healing Luminara was better. Luminara also hits hard and has a 100% chance ability block.
    Barriss has nothing but heals, and now they are substandard. The only thing she is useful for is her passives in GW.
    There should be a variety of viable options in team design. One of them should be a defensive type. Right now that is basically impossible to do and Barriss's severe nerfing is one reason why.

    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • I use her still because I have to. I don't have anything else to fill her spot.

    That said, she seems to be quite competent as I'm able to stay top 10 to players several levels higher than me daily.

    The issue is that it's not a defensive game anymore. The only way to stay top ranked is to snipe at the reset. So, yeah, duh... build out a big high damage aoe burst group for melting. Who cares about the rest of the day? You only need to be able to snipe for that last hour.

    That's the real problem, tbh. It's not about this toon or that toon being OP or weaksauce. It's about the WAY the meta is built. It's easily manipulated and, as a result, completely non-competitive. It's not a skill check, it's a luck and timing check. Simple as that.
  • Qeltar wrote: »
    pay2win wrote: »
    @Aeris

    You believe for Barriss to be useful she needs to have the strongest heal and equalize health? That doesn't seem OP to you?

    I believe she does need to have the strongest heal. Why? She doesn't do anything else.
    Even before she nerfed, in terms of raw total healing Luminara was better. Luminara also hits hard and has a 100% chance ability block.
    Barriss has nothing but heals, and now they are substandard. The only thing she is useful for is her passives in GW.
    There should be a variety of viable options in team design. One of them should be a defensive type. Right now that is basically impossible to do and Barriss's severe nerfing is one reason why.

    Her leader ability is decent especially in GW. Her passive ability is OK and probably wouldnt hurt being buffed some. Her damage isn't great at all but she also has a chance to heal off of it so it seems to balance out some. Her HP is amazing. Equalization is great against healing immunity. Adding on the strongest heal in the game would push her towards OP. We are talking about wiping most damage done in the opening round.

    Luminaras heal is based off of her HP. Barriss is based off of the person receiving it. Think this gets overlooked a lot. At level 70, Bariss would be healing CT-5555 for about 9000 HP if she healed the same as Luminara.
  • Eaywen
    422 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Does no one here even realize her dispel only on jedi making it terrible in most groups? I hear people keep bringing it up as it if somehow meant something to anyone but other jedi. I have her 6 star because I bought her then pulled her 3 more times. Shes terrible and near worthless even in GW one you have 10 use able people.

    But but but she partially mitigates a debuff that's only common because 90% of players run sidious. Well fine ploo is op because he counters stealth which is had by jut as many characters.
  • Aeris
    29 posts Member
    pay2win wrote: »
    @Aeris

    You believe for Barriss to be useful she needs to have the strongest heal and equalize health? That doesn't seem OP to you?

    That is a good question.
    I think how much heal is too much depends on mechanism of late game battle.
    There seems to me to be a trend of high damage dealing in late game battle which are beyond the amount healer can heal; on the other hand, lack of damage may therefore put one in handicap in the beginning of late game battle, especially in PvP defense, and I believe Barris could put one in that handicap owing to her low damage.
    I think the late game battles are more like that if you don't take out an opponent, one of your team will likely be taken out.
    In conclusion, the late game in my vision would be exchanging of heavy damage that is beyond healing capacity. I could be wrong though, and there might be many other possibilities of how late game battles would be like.

  • All I know is the current meta is a snipefest. Seriously, there is no sustain in Arena teams anymore. Clearly, the 'nerf' broke the model of using a balanced team in favor of building a ultra high damage team (mostly glass) and timing your battles.
Sign In or Register to comment.