Critical damage vs offense mods

Salgado9

Just wanna know whats better for an anakin lead. I'm currently using him and I've tried out both. They almost seem the same to me but the weird thing is, is that my offense mods are 3 star and my crit dmg mods were only like 1/2 stars. Just wanna know what yall think is better?

sephiroth198900

Really I think it just depends on the characters if they already have high crit chance I would go for the crit damage but if you are just trying to make a weaker character hit harder I would go with offense

boellefisk

This is a really good question.
If 40% more offense translate directly to 40% more damage and has the same counters (armor etc.) as crit, then offense is straight up better because it "always works".
It does seem counter intuitive that they would make it that way, but since it seems they have no idea at all about what they are doing in regards to balance, I think it might just be possible that it works this way.

sephiroth198900

OK look at it like this let's say my phasma right now has 150% crit damage and I give her another 40% with mods that makes 190% which should be she does 1800 without hiting a crit and on a crit hit she does a little over 4k but the advantage is that she also has 40% crit chance which I can also increase with mods to 60% so over half the time I attack with her she will crit.

Now mace on the other hand has 150% crit damage as well but he only has 20% crit hit chance but he does about 4k damage without hitting a crit so in my opinion it would be better if you just gave him offense mods over crit damage because his crit rate is too low to matter he wouldn't hit enough crits for the damage to actually make a difference.

Pokebreaker

boellefisk wrote: »

...but since it seems they have no idea at all about what they are doing in regards to balance, I think it might just be possible that it works this way.

That made me laugh pretty hard as I read it.

boellefisk

sephiroth198900 wrote: »

OK look at it like this let's say my phasma right now has 150% crit damage and I give her another 40% with mods that makes 190% which should be she does 1800 without hiting a crit and on a crit hit she does a little over 4k but the advantage is that she also has 40% crit chance which I can also increase with mods to 60% so over half the time I attack with her she will crit.

Now mace on the other hand has 150% crit damage as well but he only has 20% crit hit chance but he does about 4k damage without hitting a crit so in my opinion it would be better if you just gave him offense mods over crit damage because his crit rate is too low to matter he wouldn't hit enough crits for the damage to actually make a difference.

Well not necessarily.
Offense could be better all the time, depending on exactly how it works.

Say you have 2 toons, each with 1000 damage.
Toon a has +40% extra crit damage (equals 190% extra damage on crit) and toon b has +40% extra offence.

With my theorycrafting, it would go like this:

No crit:
Toon a: 1000 damage
Toon b: 1400 damage (1000 + (1000 * 0.4) )

With crit:
Toon a: 1900 damage (1000 * 1.9)
Toon b: 1900 damage (1000 + (1000 * 0.4) + (1000 * 0.5 ) )

Clearly, it's better to have +40% offense, even if the multipliers are added and not multiplied.
If they are multiplied, +40% offense will be even better, making Toon b crit for 3500 instead of 2900.

So....offense may just be a lot better - depending on how offense actually works.

Please, someone who actually has a clue about the game mechanics come and help us.

CEG9876

Crit Dmg

IG-86 + 4 critical damage + 2 health = UNSTOPPABLE.
Now against rey.

sephiroth198900

Lmao but you don't seem to understand there are other things that factor like the fact that phasma's abilities are more important than her damage so when I do attack with her I want her to be doing that 4k as much as possible which when it comes to mace that's all he does is attack so the offense is better because he will be doing more damage over time

sephiroth198900

Can we get some people with actual intelligence in here

Super123

Seems like offensive mods pure damage still get affected by armor, while crit damage is armor piercing.

sephiroth198900

Yes but that is where crit chance comes into play because if I give mace that offense +40% and he goes from 4k damage to 6k (just hypothetical) and when he does crit he hits for around 12k with only 150% crit damage compared to if I give him +40% crit damage his normal attack will still only be at 4k damage with only a 20% crit hit chance and even if I gave him the +20% crit chance that's still only 40% and not high enough in my opinion to make a difference.

But to each their own

ItsJarJarBinkz

Crit Dmg

For droids who crit a majority of the time. Crit damage.

boellefisk

Super123 wrote: »

Seems like offensive mods pure damage still get affected by armor, while crit damage is armor piercing.

Makes sense. Still, if you crit with +40% offense, that's 190% crit still, right?

That still makes offense better, because the crit will still be AP, while the normal uncritting damage will still be more than normal - so offense should still be better right?

The only situation where crit would be better would be if crit damage doesn't depend on offence at all, but is based on some other damage stat. That is basically what I am wondering.
@sephiroth198900 you say you want people with intelligence here, but you still haven't understood what my point is, even though I made the calculation quite verbose. You could be right, but you have made absolutely no case for your argument. If you think crit is better for those who crit a lot, then you need to explain why you think so and base it on some actual math.

I wish someone who knew the machanis really well would post here how it actually works.

Super123

Maybe better illustrate it like this
Offense only: [(base attack +40%) - armor]*crit calc
Crit damage: (base attack - armor)*crit calc+40%

sephiroth198900

No it won't be 190% crit damage but yes it will increase the crit damage because the characters base damage is increased and it is situational like I said someone like phasma whos skills are more important you would be better going for crits because most of her turns she will be supporting not attacking hence why she is a support character

boellefisk

sephiroth198900 wrote: »

No it won't be 190% crit damage but yes it will increase the crit damage because the characters base damage is increased and it is situational like I said someone like phasma whos skills are more important you would be better going for crits because most of her turns she will be supporting not attacking hence why she is a support character

I will try one last time.
100+40+150=290
100+190=290
So same damage on a crit. If you think it works in another way, then try writing why you think that, and maybe try to argue in a better way than what to do with phasma since it if completely irrelevant if offense gives as much bonus on a crit as + crit damage mods.
Or maybe I have misunderstood what you write about phasma, but I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense.

Super123, thanks for your contribution. It makes sense.
So if armor reductions are calculated before the applied crit, is that something you have tested or has some sort of reference on? I think you are right, but it would be really nice if there was some kind of source for that, even if it is yourself who made calculations and tests.

sephiroth198900

Lmao you must can't read because I never said one was better than the other what I said is depending on the situation (your team build) and the characters you use one could be more beneficial than the other and then I gave examples of how I implement that in my team

sephiroth198900

And I don't really understand how anything I said is confusing well you know what they say you can lead the horse to the water but .... Lol I'm done

Super123

boellefisk wrote: »

sephiroth198900 wrote: »

No it won't be 190% crit damage but yes it will increase the crit damage because the characters base damage is increased and it is situational like I said someone like phasma whos skills are more important you would be better going for crits because most of her turns she will be supporting not attacking hence why she is a support character

I will try one last time.
100+40+150=290
100+190=290
So same damage on a crit. If you think it works in another way, then try writing why you think that, and maybe try to argue in a better way than what to do with phasma since it if completely irrelevant if offense gives as much bonus on a crit as + crit damage mods.
Or maybe I have misunderstood what you write about phasma, but I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense.

Super123, thanks for your contribution. It makes sense.
So if armor reductions are calculated before the applied crit, is that something you have tested or has some sort of reference on? I think you are right, but it would be really nice if there was some kind of source for that, even if it is yourself who made calculations and tests.

My idea is purely hypothetical based on the stat category. Critical damage is part of the General stat, meanwhile damage and armor is part of 2 different categories, offense and survivalability. Based on this categorization, I think critical damage is somethink that one calculate after counting for the net offensive point (damage - armor).

I haven't tested it in real battle yet, as I've just finished my offense mods stage. Hope that I could do some experiment soon in real battle situation.

boellefisk

@sephiroth198900
If something is better no matter the situation, it doesn't depend on the situation.
But ok, whatever.
I don't care if you understand it or not.

Super123 wrote: »

My idea is purely hypothetical based on the stat category. Critical damage is part of the General stat, meanwhile damage and armor is part of 2 different categories, offense and survivalability. Based on this categorization, I think critical damage is somethink that one calculate after counting for the net offensive point (damage - armor).

I haven't tested it in real battle yet, as I've just finished my offense mods stage. Hope that I could do some experiment soon in real battle situation.

It would make a lot of sense if it was calculated that way.
Anyway, if you do test it, please post here
I'm still some way away from getting all the different mods, since I stupidly went for normal cantina grind before I realized how insanely they had balanced the mods.

Malpka

Crit Dmg

Crit damage hands down as far as mods go.
While it is different than Crit chance up vs off up (excluding synergies) where off up is way better, it is painfully obvious. Assuming 50% crit rate on character.
While u still should aim for some offence up then crit damage is where ridicolous numbers start kicking in.

I'll explain:
most important thing to remember:

Mods work of base stats - meaning plus 1000 offence wont be added before plus 50% offence (just example numbers) now crit damage by its very nature is exception from that.

Lets use the numbers from above example:

10000 offence toon gets 1000 offence and 50% offence mod effectively gets 16k offence, 24 k on crit.
Now lets apply another 50% offence mod it gets 21k offence, 31.5k on crit.
Now lets apply 50% crit damage 16 k offence 32k on crit

Lets apply another:
50% offence = 26k offence, 39 on crit
50% crit damage = 16k offence 40k on crit

Thats about it as far as mods itself go.

WhaleKiller1

Crit damage is best with an already high crit chance, but who has 5 viable jawa to get the good crit chance mods?

No one. What a dumb idea to release this before the release of enough jawa.

Toukai

GS has a high crit chance naturally. And he gains TM when he crits.

GS would be good for this.

awbattles

Malpka wrote: »

Crit damage hands down as far as mods go.
While it is different than Crit chance up vs off up (excluding synergies) where off up is way better, it is painfully obvious. Assuming 50% crit rate on character.
While u still should aim for some offence up then crit damage is where ridicolous numbers start kicking in.

I'll explain:
most important thing to remember:

Mods work of base stats - meaning plus 1000 offence wont be added before plus 50% offence (just example numbers) now crit damage by its very nature is exception from that.

Lets use the numbers from above example:

10000 offence toon gets 1000 offence and 50% offence mod effectively gets 16k offence, 24 k on crit.
Now lets apply another 50% offence mod it gets 21k offence, 31.5k on crit.
Now lets apply 50% crit damage 16 k offence 32k on crit

Lets apply another:
50% offence = 26k offence, 39 on crit
50% crit damage = 16k offence 40k on crit

Thats about it as far as mods itself go.

So, the benefit of crit damage% over offense% manifasts itself primarily by multiplying the flat offense boosts.
With your example, crit damage is better by about 1.5%. Which would be preferable if you were to crit on every hit. So...you need very high crit chance AND high flat offense boosts for crit damage to be better, yes? Still seems like a less than clear-cut choice to make.

NinjaMime

Pokebreaker wrote: »

boellefisk wrote: »

...but since it seems they have no idea at all about what they are doing in regards to balance, I think it might just be possible that it works this way.

That made me laugh pretty hard as I read it.

same hah!

boellefisk

awbattles wrote: »

So, the benefit of crit damage% over offense% manifasts itself primarily by multiplying the flat offense boosts.
With your example, crit damage is better by about 1.5%. Which would be preferable if you were to crit on every hit. So...you need very high crit chance AND high flat offense boosts for crit damage to be better, yes? Still seems like a less than clear-cut choice to make.

Exactly my thought too.
I am working on getting a HK lead doid team with JE, and poe as tank (in dire lack of any better) and as such I am stuck with the choice of extra crit damage or extra offence. They will be 1 or 2 stars no matter what, because the only thing I can get 5stars on is HP mods.
I have 3 jawas, but they are nowhere close to even being able to handle the first challenge.

Manowar

Just skimming through this, assuming the facts and figures are correct: it would appear the that critical damage mods are better for toons with very high or 100% crit chance, while offense mods are better for the average toon across the board.