A Cavemans Theory on Time Travel, Gravity Wells, and The Relativistic Effects of time in SWGOH
August 12, 2016 3:56AM
edited August 2016
Time travel!
That's right, I said time travel!
Any toon that gets turn meter gain or reduction, is in effect, a time traveler. Also, Han Solo is the oldest toon in the SWGOH universe.
If you are interested in learning more about how speed functions in the SWGOH universe, and what the heck I am talking about when I mention time travel, gravity wells, relativity, and how this all relates to the SWGOH universe, please read on. Bear with me, it will get really long.
If you think science is icky, you may want to stop here and not waste your time.
Everyone, at some time while playing this game, will likely wonder how exactly speed functions in the game. How does the game decide who goes first, when they go, and in what order. What happens when speed changes, how does that effect my team.
Unfortunately, the answer is, we really don't know. The Devs at CG know, but that haven't told us exactly. They have provided some information, but they don't explain all the mechanics.
Fortunately for us, we can use the information we do have, to science our way to conclusions and develop a hypothesis of how we think speed works in the game. We can test this hypothesis with the limited info we can gather, and verify or dismiss it based on the evidence. If we confirm this hypothesis with repeated, verifiable results, we can all it a theory. We can then use this theory to explain everything we see regarding speed in the SWGOH universe.
Science. Crazy right?
Now, if our theory hold true across all circumstances we can provide verifiable evidence for, we can set out scientific laws. These laws should remain consistent across all verifiable circumstances.
The only problem is that there could be bugs in our universe. There could be a circumstance in the SWGOH universe where there is something occurring that does not fit our theory and laws about the way speed works in our universe. This is in fact, the only way we can know if there is a bug in our universe. We have to set out a working theory of speed and laws and test them. If we see anomalies, we know our theory is wrong, or there is a bug. Also, the laws have changed in the past, and could change again in the future.
I have developed a working theory of speed, and I feel that I know the laws of the SWGOH universe as they relate to speed. I have previously published a post regarding speed, it's history, and part of my current working theory of speed in the SWGOH universe.
You can find that post here, and I really recommend you read it if you would like a basic understanding of speed mechanics in this game:
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/58474/a-cavemans-guide-to-speed-mechanics#latest
It will be important to read and somewhat understand what I am talking about in that post to follow along as I try to delve deeper into the mysteries of speed. It also provides a brief history of speed in our universe. If you didn't read it, you may want to go back and do so before continuing on.
You will notice I kind of rambled a bit at the end in regards to setting the value of the turn meter and relativity. At that point, I didn't fully grasp the implications of what I was trying to explain. Follow along and I will try to explain what I am talking about.
Ok, so according to what devs have said on speed, and what my working theory of speed tells us, we can set out the following Laws of Speed:
Laws of Speed
1. Turn meter fills at a constant rate that is dependent on that toons speed value
2. A toon cannot go over 100% turn meter, once it reaches 100%, it gets a turn, which reduces turn meter to 0%
3. Toons with a faster speed value, will always get first turn, Han Solo being the exception with his shoot first ability.
4. Toons that fill turn meter at the same time tie for action and RNG decides who goes first
5. Skills that increase turn meter fill a percentage possible and cannot fill a toon over 100%, any extra is lost.
6. Skills that reduce turn meter, reduce a percentage possible, not percentage available and turn meter can't be reduced below 0%
I hold these Laws of Speed to be Irrefuteable in our universe. If anyone can disprove these laws, I invite them to do so. Just provide screenshots showing that any of these laws are wrong. If you can, I will either be forced to change my theory, or we will have found a bug. Either way, it improves our knowledge about the game.
So that is what I know or can infer from both Dev statements, and repeatable, verifiable information obtained from playing the game. So what is it that we don't know? Well, we still don't know how speed really functions. We don't know the value of the turn meter. Most people will say we do and that the value is 1000. I invite those people to go back and do the same calculations they used to confirm, but to use a value of 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 instead. You will find that the numbers work the same.
The 1000 is an arbitrary number we use to describe the way we see time pass for our toons in the SWGOH universe. We can change that number and see the same results.
Think for a second about how we see what happens to our toons in a battle in the Game. What do we actually see? We actually only actually see pauses in time, when a toon fills a turn meter and gets to take a turn. That moment in the toons time is stopped and we get to decide what to do.
The actions that happen behind the scenes happens so fast that it is impossible to follow. We can only go back and use the knowledge we have to reconstruct what should have happened according to our theory of speed.
To do this, we set the turn meter to an arbitrary number then we divide that by that toons known speed value. This gives us a way to visualize what should happen, and we can verify that by observation of what we see.
This is how I can work out that my 270 speed JE will move in round 3.7037037r. And he will go before my HK at 150 speed who will go in round 6.666666r. Keep in mind that for all the equations I am doing, I am using the whole numbers, not rounded off values. Also keep in mind that we are achieving these numbers by assigning an arbitrary value to turn meter of 1000.
I can just as easily say my 270 speed JE will move in round 370.3703703r., and my HK in round 666.6666r if I use 100000 for the value for the turn meter.
The important thing to keep in mind, and that a lot of people have a hard time with, is that speed fills at a constant rate. That rate is different for each toon, because they have different speed values. Therefore, each toon experiences time different and has a seperate, but equally valid timeline!
Whoa, hold on! What in the heck are you talking about Caveman? Toons experience time differently, and have different timelines? Yup! We also have our own seperate, but equally valid timeline as observers in the SWGOH universe that is dependent on our toons timeline.
Follow along with me here and I will attempt to explain what I am talking about. We are now getting deep into the world of Einsteins theory of Special Relativity. Yes, that Relativity! Yes, that Einstein!
I will use an anology here to help explain what I am talking about. If you have seen the movie "Interstellar", you will understand what I am talking about. If you haven't seen the movie, check it out! It was pretty good, especially if you like science and relativity.
The Interstellar Analogy:
Remember in the movie, when they went to the planet on the edge of the Black Hole? The planets surface was in a gravity well. Basically, the mass of the black hole causes a huge warp in space-time, creating a gravity well.
The astronaut that stayed on the ship, outside of the effects of the gravity well, experienced time at a different rate than the scientists who took the smaller ship down to the planets surface. I don't remember the exact ratio, but some xx amount of years passed for the astronaut on the ship, while only xx hours had passed for the astronauts that traveled to the surface.
So the two seperate groups experienced time passing at a different rate for each. They were on different timelines that converged again when they met back up. For the astronauts that traveled into the gravity well and back, the trip appeared to only take hours. To the astronaut who stayed on the ship, the trip appeared to take years.
If it were possible for the astronaut on the ship to view the astronauts on the planet through a super powerful telescope, it would appear to him as if they were moving very, very slow. The converse is also true, to the astronauts on the planet, the astronaut on the ship outside the gravity well would look very, very fast.
So who is right? They both are! They both experienced time a a different rate, but each rate is equally valid, it just depends on whose perspective you look from. This is a part of relativity and is a fact of our universe.
This is also how our toons experience time. My 270 speed JE looks at my 150 speed HK and sees him moving very slow. My HK looks at my JE and sees him as moving very fast. So each toon is moving along a seperate, but equally valid timeline, just like in the example above!
Even though our toons are standing next to each other, we can imagine them as being in a gravity well. The fastest toon is outside, and the slowest toon is farthest inside the gravity well. Each toon will see each other toon as moving at different speeds. Each will be on its own seperate timeline. The toons turn meter is an indication of what is happening and where he is at on his timeline.
So where does that put us as players? Let's say that we are outside of this universe. We exist on a different timeline, in a complete different dimension. We only get to interact and observe this universe when time is paused. When time is paused we can observe what has happened and we also get to tell our toons what to do. But, we only get to see what is happening when a toon gets a turn. So let's say at the beginning of his turn he sends us a signal, this signal has a snapshot of every toons turn meter, we send a signal back and tell him what to do, then he sends a signal back with another snapshot of every toons turn meter.
This is pretty much how the game works. We don't get to see the behind the scenes actions. It happens too fast for us to follow. Instead, we get a snapshot of time before and after a toon gets an action.
Since we only get a snapshot of time before and after a turn, we can only view it from that toons perspective at that particular point in that toons time. So our only perception of what has happened comes from that toon, and our perception of time is his perception of time.
So let's see what happens. Our JE is moving at a rate of 270. Our HK is moving at a rate of 150. We know from the third Law of Speed that JE will go first, because he has the fastest speed. So JE fills his turn meter first and sends us a snapshot of every toons turn meter.
We can now assign his turn meter a number value to normalize time from our perspective. Let's set our turn meter value at 1000. Now we take that 1000 and divide it by the toons speed value. So 1000/270 = 3.7037037r. We can now say that JE went on round 3.7037037r.
Now we can backtrack and figure out every toons place in our perception of time according to their turn meter. Our time perception tells us we experienced 3.7037037r rounds. So we take HKs speed value of 150 x 3.7037037r = 555.55555r. Or 55.5% turn meter.
This should match up with what we see on HKs turn meter. Keep in mind that the turn meter is just a visual representation of a value, and not very accurate. We can't tell that it is 55.5555% full, exactly, but it is close enough.
Now we are in the middle of JEs turn still, and time is still paused. Now we get to tell him what to do. He can either roll a mini thermal, or use recalibrate and fill turn meter 45%. When he uses his action, his turn meter resets to 0%, and he sends us another signal with a snapshot of every toons turn meter.
Let's see what happens with the first option. He rolls his thermal and depletes his turn meter, then sends us a signal with a snapshot of every toons turn meter. Since time in the universe is paused, the only difference between the snapshot he sent at beginning and end of his turn, is that his meter has depleted.
Now we have to wait for another signal from a toon to tell what has happened. HK is the only other toon and has been filling at a constant rate at the same time as JE. He is slower so he fills slower. When he fills turn meter and sends a signal, he is on round 1000/150 = 6.66666r.
Now we know how many rounds have taken place so we can calculate what JEs turn meter should be at this point in time, from HKs perspective, which is also our perspective. We can do this easily by multiplying JEs speed of 270 x 6.66666666r = 1799.99999. But, JE had a turn already so we need to subtract that 1000 so he will be at 799.99999r. Or 79.9% turn meter.
Ok so what happens in the other possibility, where JE uses his recalibrate skill? This is where we get into TIME TRAVEL!
So we know JE goes first. He sends us a signal at round 3.7037037r. We know HK is at 55.5555% turn meter. Now JE uses recalibrate and adds 45% or 450 to his and HKs turn meter, and sends us a signal. Hk was already at 55.5555% turn meter, the 45% added by JE fills his turn meter, effectively moving him up to the same point in time on JEs timeline, which is round 3.7037037r. From the toons perspective, he just traveled in time. He cannot overfill and go past this current time into the future because he must take an action and deplete his meter so any extra over 100% is wasted. But, JE had empty space in his meter, so he can and does travel forward in time from! Any extra turn meter over 100% is wasted. HK sends us a signal, we get to tell him what action to take, he does that, depletes turn meter, and sends us another signal.
Now we know that HK is at 0% and at the same point in time JE was at 45%. The actions all occurred at the same point in time. This is our new perspective, which is HKs perspective.
Now we have to wait for a signal again. JE fills his turn meter and sends us a signal. Now we can again work out where HK should be on his turn meter. It's a little different this time because the last we knew, JE was at 45% when HK was at 0%. So now to fill his turn meter, JE only needed 55%. So now we set our normalization number to 550. So 550/270 = 2.037037r. So 2.037037r rounds have occurred since HK went last. So 148(2.037037r) = 301.48147 or about 30.1% turn meter is what HK will have.
This is the only way to calculate speed. We can only know what happens when our toons send us a signal and backtrack from there using the knowledge we have. Pretty crazy huh? Time travel is what makes it so hard to track speeds for every toon.
Ok, so what if JE had a skill that reduced turn meter instead of giving turn meter? Let's see what happens there.
JE goes first and sends us a signal. We work out that HK is sitting at 55.5555% turn meter. JE reduces his turn meter by 45% leaving HK at 10.5555% turn meter. From my perspective, which is JEs perspective, HK just traveled back in time on his own timeline!
So, in effect, toons that have their turn meters manipulated are Time Travelers!!
I think I have rambled on enough for now. If you have stayed with me this far, hopefully you have a better understanding of the way I think that time works in the SWGOH universe. If you have any evidence that proves anything I said wrong, please don't hesitate to post it. We can only get better with knowledge.
I mentioned at the beginning that Han Solo is the oldest toon in the universe, I won't get into that, but challenge you to post back and tell me why that is or is not true.
Also, a big thank you to Nebulous for listening to my inane rambling via pm for the last couple of days.....
That's right, I said time travel!
Any toon that gets turn meter gain or reduction, is in effect, a time traveler. Also, Han Solo is the oldest toon in the SWGOH universe.
If you are interested in learning more about how speed functions in the SWGOH universe, and what the heck I am talking about when I mention time travel, gravity wells, relativity, and how this all relates to the SWGOH universe, please read on. Bear with me, it will get really long.
If you think science is icky, you may want to stop here and not waste your time.
Everyone, at some time while playing this game, will likely wonder how exactly speed functions in the game. How does the game decide who goes first, when they go, and in what order. What happens when speed changes, how does that effect my team.
Unfortunately, the answer is, we really don't know. The Devs at CG know, but that haven't told us exactly. They have provided some information, but they don't explain all the mechanics.
Fortunately for us, we can use the information we do have, to science our way to conclusions and develop a hypothesis of how we think speed works in the game. We can test this hypothesis with the limited info we can gather, and verify or dismiss it based on the evidence. If we confirm this hypothesis with repeated, verifiable results, we can all it a theory. We can then use this theory to explain everything we see regarding speed in the SWGOH universe.
Science. Crazy right?
Now, if our theory hold true across all circumstances we can provide verifiable evidence for, we can set out scientific laws. These laws should remain consistent across all verifiable circumstances.
The only problem is that there could be bugs in our universe. There could be a circumstance in the SWGOH universe where there is something occurring that does not fit our theory and laws about the way speed works in our universe. This is in fact, the only way we can know if there is a bug in our universe. We have to set out a working theory of speed and laws and test them. If we see anomalies, we know our theory is wrong, or there is a bug. Also, the laws have changed in the past, and could change again in the future.
I have developed a working theory of speed, and I feel that I know the laws of the SWGOH universe as they relate to speed. I have previously published a post regarding speed, it's history, and part of my current working theory of speed in the SWGOH universe.
You can find that post here, and I really recommend you read it if you would like a basic understanding of speed mechanics in this game:
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/58474/a-cavemans-guide-to-speed-mechanics#latest
It will be important to read and somewhat understand what I am talking about in that post to follow along as I try to delve deeper into the mysteries of speed. It also provides a brief history of speed in our universe. If you didn't read it, you may want to go back and do so before continuing on.
You will notice I kind of rambled a bit at the end in regards to setting the value of the turn meter and relativity. At that point, I didn't fully grasp the implications of what I was trying to explain. Follow along and I will try to explain what I am talking about.
Ok, so according to what devs have said on speed, and what my working theory of speed tells us, we can set out the following Laws of Speed:
Laws of Speed
1. Turn meter fills at a constant rate that is dependent on that toons speed value
2. A toon cannot go over 100% turn meter, once it reaches 100%, it gets a turn, which reduces turn meter to 0%
3. Toons with a faster speed value, will always get first turn, Han Solo being the exception with his shoot first ability.
4. Toons that fill turn meter at the same time tie for action and RNG decides who goes first
5. Skills that increase turn meter fill a percentage possible and cannot fill a toon over 100%, any extra is lost.
6. Skills that reduce turn meter, reduce a percentage possible, not percentage available and turn meter can't be reduced below 0%
I hold these Laws of Speed to be Irrefuteable in our universe. If anyone can disprove these laws, I invite them to do so. Just provide screenshots showing that any of these laws are wrong. If you can, I will either be forced to change my theory, or we will have found a bug. Either way, it improves our knowledge about the game.
So that is what I know or can infer from both Dev statements, and repeatable, verifiable information obtained from playing the game. So what is it that we don't know? Well, we still don't know how speed really functions. We don't know the value of the turn meter. Most people will say we do and that the value is 1000. I invite those people to go back and do the same calculations they used to confirm, but to use a value of 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 instead. You will find that the numbers work the same.
The 1000 is an arbitrary number we use to describe the way we see time pass for our toons in the SWGOH universe. We can change that number and see the same results.
Think for a second about how we see what happens to our toons in a battle in the Game. What do we actually see? We actually only actually see pauses in time, when a toon fills a turn meter and gets to take a turn. That moment in the toons time is stopped and we get to decide what to do.
The actions that happen behind the scenes happens so fast that it is impossible to follow. We can only go back and use the knowledge we have to reconstruct what should have happened according to our theory of speed.
To do this, we set the turn meter to an arbitrary number then we divide that by that toons known speed value. This gives us a way to visualize what should happen, and we can verify that by observation of what we see.
This is how I can work out that my 270 speed JE will move in round 3.7037037r. And he will go before my HK at 150 speed who will go in round 6.666666r. Keep in mind that for all the equations I am doing, I am using the whole numbers, not rounded off values. Also keep in mind that we are achieving these numbers by assigning an arbitrary value to turn meter of 1000.
I can just as easily say my 270 speed JE will move in round 370.3703703r., and my HK in round 666.6666r if I use 100000 for the value for the turn meter.
The important thing to keep in mind, and that a lot of people have a hard time with, is that speed fills at a constant rate. That rate is different for each toon, because they have different speed values. Therefore, each toon experiences time different and has a seperate, but equally valid timeline!
Whoa, hold on! What in the heck are you talking about Caveman? Toons experience time differently, and have different timelines? Yup! We also have our own seperate, but equally valid timeline as observers in the SWGOH universe that is dependent on our toons timeline.
Follow along with me here and I will attempt to explain what I am talking about. We are now getting deep into the world of Einsteins theory of Special Relativity. Yes, that Relativity! Yes, that Einstein!
I will use an anology here to help explain what I am talking about. If you have seen the movie "Interstellar", you will understand what I am talking about. If you haven't seen the movie, check it out! It was pretty good, especially if you like science and relativity.
The Interstellar Analogy:
Remember in the movie, when they went to the planet on the edge of the Black Hole? The planets surface was in a gravity well. Basically, the mass of the black hole causes a huge warp in space-time, creating a gravity well.
The astronaut that stayed on the ship, outside of the effects of the gravity well, experienced time at a different rate than the scientists who took the smaller ship down to the planets surface. I don't remember the exact ratio, but some xx amount of years passed for the astronaut on the ship, while only xx hours had passed for the astronauts that traveled to the surface.
So the two seperate groups experienced time passing at a different rate for each. They were on different timelines that converged again when they met back up. For the astronauts that traveled into the gravity well and back, the trip appeared to only take hours. To the astronaut who stayed on the ship, the trip appeared to take years.
If it were possible for the astronaut on the ship to view the astronauts on the planet through a super powerful telescope, it would appear to him as if they were moving very, very slow. The converse is also true, to the astronauts on the planet, the astronaut on the ship outside the gravity well would look very, very fast.
So who is right? They both are! They both experienced time a a different rate, but each rate is equally valid, it just depends on whose perspective you look from. This is a part of relativity and is a fact of our universe.
This is also how our toons experience time. My 270 speed JE looks at my 150 speed HK and sees him moving very slow. My HK looks at my JE and sees him as moving very fast. So each toon is moving along a seperate, but equally valid timeline, just like in the example above!
Even though our toons are standing next to each other, we can imagine them as being in a gravity well. The fastest toon is outside, and the slowest toon is farthest inside the gravity well. Each toon will see each other toon as moving at different speeds. Each will be on its own seperate timeline. The toons turn meter is an indication of what is happening and where he is at on his timeline.
So where does that put us as players? Let's say that we are outside of this universe. We exist on a different timeline, in a complete different dimension. We only get to interact and observe this universe when time is paused. When time is paused we can observe what has happened and we also get to tell our toons what to do. But, we only get to see what is happening when a toon gets a turn. So let's say at the beginning of his turn he sends us a signal, this signal has a snapshot of every toons turn meter, we send a signal back and tell him what to do, then he sends a signal back with another snapshot of every toons turn meter.
This is pretty much how the game works. We don't get to see the behind the scenes actions. It happens too fast for us to follow. Instead, we get a snapshot of time before and after a toon gets an action.
Since we only get a snapshot of time before and after a turn, we can only view it from that toons perspective at that particular point in that toons time. So our only perception of what has happened comes from that toon, and our perception of time is his perception of time.
So let's see what happens. Our JE is moving at a rate of 270. Our HK is moving at a rate of 150. We know from the third Law of Speed that JE will go first, because he has the fastest speed. So JE fills his turn meter first and sends us a snapshot of every toons turn meter.
We can now assign his turn meter a number value to normalize time from our perspective. Let's set our turn meter value at 1000. Now we take that 1000 and divide it by the toons speed value. So 1000/270 = 3.7037037r. We can now say that JE went on round 3.7037037r.
Now we can backtrack and figure out every toons place in our perception of time according to their turn meter. Our time perception tells us we experienced 3.7037037r rounds. So we take HKs speed value of 150 x 3.7037037r = 555.55555r. Or 55.5% turn meter.
This should match up with what we see on HKs turn meter. Keep in mind that the turn meter is just a visual representation of a value, and not very accurate. We can't tell that it is 55.5555% full, exactly, but it is close enough.
Now we are in the middle of JEs turn still, and time is still paused. Now we get to tell him what to do. He can either roll a mini thermal, or use recalibrate and fill turn meter 45%. When he uses his action, his turn meter resets to 0%, and he sends us another signal with a snapshot of every toons turn meter.
Let's see what happens with the first option. He rolls his thermal and depletes his turn meter, then sends us a signal with a snapshot of every toons turn meter. Since time in the universe is paused, the only difference between the snapshot he sent at beginning and end of his turn, is that his meter has depleted.
Now we have to wait for another signal from a toon to tell what has happened. HK is the only other toon and has been filling at a constant rate at the same time as JE. He is slower so he fills slower. When he fills turn meter and sends a signal, he is on round 1000/150 = 6.66666r.
Now we know how many rounds have taken place so we can calculate what JEs turn meter should be at this point in time, from HKs perspective, which is also our perspective. We can do this easily by multiplying JEs speed of 270 x 6.66666666r = 1799.99999. But, JE had a turn already so we need to subtract that 1000 so he will be at 799.99999r. Or 79.9% turn meter.
Ok so what happens in the other possibility, where JE uses his recalibrate skill? This is where we get into TIME TRAVEL!
So we know JE goes first. He sends us a signal at round 3.7037037r. We know HK is at 55.5555% turn meter. Now JE uses recalibrate and adds 45% or 450 to his and HKs turn meter, and sends us a signal. Hk was already at 55.5555% turn meter, the 45% added by JE fills his turn meter, effectively moving him up to the same point in time on JEs timeline, which is round 3.7037037r. From the toons perspective, he just traveled in time. He cannot overfill and go past this current time into the future because he must take an action and deplete his meter so any extra over 100% is wasted. But, JE had empty space in his meter, so he can and does travel forward in time from! Any extra turn meter over 100% is wasted. HK sends us a signal, we get to tell him what action to take, he does that, depletes turn meter, and sends us another signal.
Now we know that HK is at 0% and at the same point in time JE was at 45%. The actions all occurred at the same point in time. This is our new perspective, which is HKs perspective.
Now we have to wait for a signal again. JE fills his turn meter and sends us a signal. Now we can again work out where HK should be on his turn meter. It's a little different this time because the last we knew, JE was at 45% when HK was at 0%. So now to fill his turn meter, JE only needed 55%. So now we set our normalization number to 550. So 550/270 = 2.037037r. So 2.037037r rounds have occurred since HK went last. So 148(2.037037r) = 301.48147 or about 30.1% turn meter is what HK will have.
This is the only way to calculate speed. We can only know what happens when our toons send us a signal and backtrack from there using the knowledge we have. Pretty crazy huh? Time travel is what makes it so hard to track speeds for every toon.
Ok, so what if JE had a skill that reduced turn meter instead of giving turn meter? Let's see what happens there.
JE goes first and sends us a signal. We work out that HK is sitting at 55.5555% turn meter. JE reduces his turn meter by 45% leaving HK at 10.5555% turn meter. From my perspective, which is JEs perspective, HK just traveled back in time on his own timeline!
So, in effect, toons that have their turn meters manipulated are Time Travelers!!
I think I have rambled on enough for now. If you have stayed with me this far, hopefully you have a better understanding of the way I think that time works in the SWGOH universe. If you have any evidence that proves anything I said wrong, please don't hesitate to post it. We can only get better with knowledge.
I mentioned at the beginning that Han Solo is the oldest toon in the universe, I won't get into that, but challenge you to post back and tell me why that is or is not true.
Also, a big thank you to Nebulous for listening to my inane rambling via pm for the last couple of days.....
It's a hard life pickin stones and pullin teats, but sure as gods got sandals, it beats fighting dudes with treasure trails....
Post edited by CptCaveman on
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Replies
Because he made the Kessel run in 12 parsecs
Nope. No ships in our universe. Yet.....
Turn meter reduction represents getting staggered or distracted.
Han shoots first because he preps the shot and shoots before others even realize they are supposed to be fighting: sneak attack.
That's how I see it.
For han solo to go at the beginning of the match, he had 100% tm before anyone else has gained any. Therefore, he either has to gain tm at an infinitely higher rate than other toons (however, this must not be the case since his speed value is not infinite, and this only happens at the beginning of the battle), or have started gaining tm before anyone else (meaning he was there before any other toon, and so is the oldest toon)
Bingo! You win interwebz points.
The actions of two people doing push-ups is irrelevent, they move in the same exact time as each other. Their speed is dependent on their biological makeup, not time. Our toons have no biology, they are dependent on their turn meter to take an action. Their turn meter is dependent on filling at a set rate, which occurs over time. Each has a different set rate, so each has a different time.
Let's suppose that your person who is doing 30 push-ups per minute is next to a black hole in our universe, in a gravity well lets also say that his time is slowed to half of what the other person experiences, who is outside the effects. Now they are on different timelines, just like our toons.
Now we have a more accurate representation of what is going on in our SWGOH universe. We have set speed values for our persons, the faster person does 30 push-ups in one minute, slower person does 20.
Lets have them start doing push-ups, and start a timer. Let's also say that they can observe each other.
Who finishes first? Well, to the person who does push-ups slower, outside the gravity well, it will look like the person inside the well is doing his push-ups at half speed. One minute has passed for him and the person inside the slowed time has only done 15 push-ups.
To the person inside the gravity well looking at the person outside, it looks like he is moving at double his normal speed. When a minute has passed, the person outside the effect finished his 20 push-ups 30 seconds ago, and has done 20 more.
But the guy who does 30 per minute is faster right? Not in this case. It depends upon your perception of time.
TLDR: Science, it's hard for some people. Reading too.....
Sorry, but it really can't be explained in a 140 character Twitter post.
No it can't really be summed up in a few sentences.
2. Some toons have a faster speed stat,meaning time for them runs quicker (like in the movie Interstellar where the lone astronaut ages a few decases while his crew ages a few hours during their trip; i. e. the lone astronaut has speed mods).
3. By manipulating TM you are essentially travelling forwards in time (TM gain) or backwards (TM reduction).
I stand fairly well corrected
I was going to argue for Hanburger's push-up model over the time travel model, but I am going to defer.
Thank you for the post and your previous post.
Turn meter is a toons representation of time. We are only worried about actions and when they take place and want to know where the other toons are on their respective timelines. Turn meter reductions and gains make this difficult.
Take a full team of 5 with a toon with turm meter manipulation and try to calculate their turn orders past the first turn and plot it all out. It is easy to calculate a single toons turn order, or even a few toons, but throw in some turn meter manipulation and see what happens.
The problem with the push-up example referenced above is that the guys doing the push-ups are not reliant on filling their turn meter at different rates to take an action. They are reliant on their biology to determine how fast they can move. They also aren't being paused in time before doing each push-up for us to decide what to do. They are also moving in the same time. It does not represent anything we see in game, it is not a good model of the game.
You could change it and make the example fit our model. You could say that Person A fills turn meter at a rate of 30 push-ups per minute, and it takes 60 push-ups to fill his turn meter and take a break, and Person B fills turn meter at a rate of 20 pushups per minute and takes 60 push-ups to fill their turn meter and take a break. When they take a break, time pauses and we dicide whether they drink the Gatorade or H2O, after they drink, time starts again and they are always doing push-ups while time is running.
That would be a closer representation. In that model, minutes would equal rounds in the game, push-ups per minute would represent speed value, and breaks would represent turns. So after 2 minutes, or 2 rounds, Person A gets a break, Person B doesn't get a break until 4 minutes, or 4 rounds. This is what we see, but we don't wait the full four minutes, time is sped up from our perspective. We see Person A get a break, we decide, then we see person B get a break.
We do not experience time the same way our toons do, they can speed up, skip forward, skip backwards, and stop. We only know where they are on their timeline based on turn meter and where they should be according to speed value.
Teebo hits my HK for 100% of his TM then he is sending him back in time
AND THEN IF
JE pops his 45% recalibrate he would be sending HK....
Back to the Future
Haha! Love it!
The TM bar is like a bucket that needs to be filled with water. Each character has his own bucket and his own faucet. How much water comes out of the faucet (per minute) is determined by their individual speed stat. When the bucket is full, the character needs to empty it (take his turn) and start over with filling the bucket with water (at the rate determined by his speed).
The process of filling al 10 buckets with water is sped up until a character has a full bucket. The main valve is now shut until the character has emptied his bucket (took his turn). Once this is done the main valve will be opened agian, and the process of filling the buckets is sped up until the next bucket is full. etc. etc.
You could imagine +50% TM as a half bucket of water emptied into the character's bucket that recieves the boost. Every drop of water that spills over is wasted. Same goes for -50% TM, only now the water is taken out of the bucket. Cant take more water out of the bucket than there is water in the bucket, so if the character's bucket is filled for less than 50% the TM reduction is just wasted.
so basically all the characters percieve time the same way, but faster characters just have a bigger faucet and fill their bucket faster. For our (gamer/user) convenience the process of filling these buckets is sped up, and paused (main valve shut) when characters take their turn (empty their bucket)
edit: granted, this is a lot less interesting to read
So turn meter = bucket, a visual representation of that toons time
Speed value = rate bucket is filling over time, different for each toon
Minute = a set value to normalize the rate of fill between all toons, same as round I was using
So how big is the bucket? Is the bucket the same for all toons?
Since you are expressing turn meter(bucket) filling at a rate of flow, you have to assign it a value, like gallons per minute. So time is stopped, the buckets aren't filling when I get to make a decision. If I imagine a turn meter boost giving your bucket more water, all at once, I am in effect, giving your bucket a higher rate of fill, which is giving him more gallons per minute, or more time. His speed value is a set number, x minutes have passed. If you take water away, you are taking time away from that toon. Now that toon exists on a different time.
Look at JE as an example, he gives himself 45% turn meter. So he fills, time stops. X minutes have passed. He uses recalibrate, it depletes his meter and fills it 45%. Use your example, and work backwards from that point. He was at minute x, when he finished he is now at 45% turn meter(bucket). To change his rate of fill, you would have to give it a different value to match what you see, but you can't do that, his speed value is a set rate that fills constantly, unless it is paused. Say you saw it filling, it was filling at his speed value, a flow rate in your example.
So at that point, at x minutes, he just took a turn, dumped his bucket(turn meter), and filled it 45%. You have to use his speed value to calculate where he is, it doesn't change. You saw it fill. How do you explain the math? He is 45% full, his speed value fills that much in x minutes, therefore he is now x minutes in the future.
Your bucket analogy is a simple way to think of it, but it doesn't allow you to do the math. Map out turn order using your example. You will find that you have to set values on everything, like flow rate in gallons per minute, and bucket in a set amount of gallons. Then will will run into a problem where you have to only look at each persons bucket relative to each other, which is relativity. Then you will see that each toon is moving in a different time.
Show how you would apply your analogy to these teams first round:
Team A
JE 282 speed
HK 143 speed
Team B
JE 269 speed
HK 150 speed
Assume that both JEs will use recalibrate, and HK uses basic and gets no meter. Plot it out until each toon has had a turn.
Let's say JE has 200 speed. In your analogy it is water coming out of a faucet, so would be a rate of fill, so let's say he fills his bucket at 200 gallons per minute.
His bucket has to has some value right? It has to fill to the top. Let's say the bucket holds 1000 gallons of water.
We start a timer when it starts filling and watch. It takes 5 minutes to fill his bucket because 1000/200 = 5, right? Now time is paused while we get to decide what to do. We use recalibrate, that depletes his bucket completely, because using an action empties the bucket. His skill refills it immediately to 45% full, or 450 gallons in his 1000 gallon bucket.
So we know he went once, he didn't overfill, we saw him empty his bucket and fill it 45% while time was paused here at the 5 minute mark. He has filled 145%. He is now at 450 gallons in his bucket, he dumped 1000 gallons. Since time has stopped, no fill rate has happened, The spigot was shut off. we watched him fill at a constant rate, and are now at the 5 minute mark.
If you try to say he filled at a faster rate, that conflicts with what we saw. If you changed the rate of fill, we wouldn't be at the 5 minute mark because he would have filled his bucket faster than 5 mins with a higher rate of fill. So we would be at a different point in time, but we are at the 5 minute mark.
Now do the math, he filled at 200 gallons per minute, he is now at 450 gallons, and he dumped 1000. So 1450/200 = 7.25. 7.25 minutes have passed from his perspective, which is our perpective too. We were at the 5 minute mark, with time paused, now math is telling us we are at the 7.25 minute mark, is math wrong?
Nope, your JE just time traveled 2.25 minutes into the future with his magical skill, and so did you!
Let's start simple and just add a 150 speed HK. In the bucket analogy, he fills a 1000 gallon bucket at 150 gallons per minute out of his spigot.
We only see the buckets when a bucket fills, time stops, and a toon gets a turn. The stuff that happens between these pauses, the filling of the buckets, happens very fast. This is a good thing. It allows us to figure out what happened. Run a battle on auto, which takes the pauses out, and try to track the turn order.
We know the rate they fill at for each toon and have decided on the size of the bucket. We know we only see the buckets when they fill, and we can use math to figure out exactly when that is.
So JE at 200 gallons per minute fills his 1000 gallon bucket in 5 minutes. Because 1000/200 = 5.
HK at 150 gallons fills his 1000 gallon bucket in 6.666r minutes. Because 1000/150 = 6.666r
We know JE fills at 5 minutes so he will go first. HK shouldn't fill his bucket for 6.66 minutes.
So time starts and the buckets start filling. Each at a different rate. When we get to the 5 minute mark, time is paused. We can see both buckets. We know JE is full, and HK is at 5 minutes x 150gpm = 750 gallons in his bucket.
Now JE gets a turn, he uses recalibrate, which dumps his bucket out and fills it again by 45%, or 450 gallons. The math above says we are now at the 7.25 minute mark. Hold on, where is HK now? The skill affected him too?
HK gets 45%, or 450 gallons added to his bucket. His bucket was at 750 gallons. It overfills and the extra splashes out.
Now do the math with HK. He is at 1000 turn meter. Math tells us he should have taken 6.66r minutes to fill his bucket. But here we are, paused at the five minute mark, and he is full. He has traveled into the future, according to the math. His bucket filled at a set rate, it cannot change. He can't travel into the future past here, because his bucket overfilled and the extra splashed out. He is now at the 5 minute mark with JE, and us, from our perspective.
He does his basic attack, which dumps his bucket. Let's say he gains no meter.
Now, at the 5 minute mark still, he has an empty bucket, and JE is at 45% full bucket. The math tells us that HK is still here with us, at the 5 minute mark, but JE is 2.25 minutes in the future. They are on different timelines now.
Now time starts again, the spigots open and resume filling at their set rates.
Who fills next? We know JE has 450 gallons already, and HK is empty when time starts. JE is faster, and has less to fill, so should fill and pause time again next.
We know JE fills at 200gpm, and has 450 gallons. He needs to fill 550. 550/200 = 2.75 minutes. But 2.75 minutes from where? When time starts again, JE is already at 450gallons, but he is at the 7.25 minute mark. Let's try that and work out the math.
For JE 7.25 minutes have passed and he fills again. We know it would take him 2.75 minutes to do so from our current point in time. 7.25 + 2.75 = 10 minutes. We are now paused at the 10 minute mark from JEs perspective, which is what we see. Now we can do more math. We know he has filled his bucket twice. So 2000 gallons. We know the rate he fills, 200gpm. 2000/200 = 10. This matches right? We are now at the ten minute mark.
So how do you figure out where HK is now?