Why damage should be 1/2 in squad arena analysis inside
(Sorry for formatting I am doing this on my phone)
Balance Goal - Prevent 1st Round One Shots and Make Tanks and Healers Relevant
Balance Idea - We reduce arena damage/healing/dot damage/health % bonuses(RG I am looking at you) by half
Math to Justify this Balance
Current Max Damage in a single turn without assist
FOTP - 6500 x 3
FOTP gets fixed, not nerfed, his double tap to go 2x.
After fix FOTP max damage 13000
New max damage any character can do first round without buffs or assist 6500.
Unable to one shot any max geared character.
Effect Analysis
Balance Adjustments/Fixes
Poe has his aoe turn reduction moved down to 10%, allows speed team go first still. Allows reduced
opposing speed team to go turn 9 instead of turn 10 making sure some slow heavy hitters are still going
last.
FOTP - Double Tap skill fixed to 2x not 3x.
DPS effect
1 attack is now not enough to kill a single person.
In certain very rare circumstances it is possible.
Quigon calls with assist fotp who has advantage and gets 2 crits.
Rey offense buffed, without any negative statuses, crits her 2nd special.
These one shots only occur on unbuffed glass cannon characters.
AOE dps
They are now slightly more useful, their damage scales down
with single targets but the debuffs they cause are now more important
in longer matches.
Tanks
Tanks in general are much more important now that they can survive
a lot of hits. Normally in high level pvp match the tanks
die in 1-2 hits versus current meta characters. They do
not serve their purpose of absorbing damage for the length
of their taunt and also they give less procs since less
people are hitting them. By taking 1/2 the damage the tanks that
are not Poe get buffed a lot since they are now able
to use their tanking skill at least once before being
killed. One of the reasons Poe is so good he unloads
all his tanks benefits right away, so having him survive
served no purpose and that is why he fits so well in the current
meta of tanks dying instantly.
Healers
Having their healing reduced by 1/2 is the only way that healing
can stay in balance with the dps. Health now lowers slowly and
there are ample oppurtunities to cast your heal
usually 1 or 2 times a match. Instead of targets instantly dying
from single target dps they have a chance to be healed up. With the balance
change Barris is now a good healer again(might need to look at her balance later).
Effect on Team Synergy
Now it will benefit you greatly to have one
tank, one healer, and then various support/dps. At the moment it is
all dps and poe, or just all dps.
Effect on Arena Time
Instead of matches being decided withing the
first round and being done in a minute or two. These new matches
should be more exciting and take 3+ minutes. A longer arena timer can and
should be implemented.
How to Eliminate Sniping and Arena Lock Outs
This is a necessity to allow for longer arena matches. Using this technique you
can remove the timer altogether from the match.
Firstly, get rid of spending crystals to get extra turns. Second give everyone 10 attempts. Each attempt
depending on who you fight gives a point value. When you are rank 1, if you
fight and beat rank two it is the same point value as beating yourself. If you win you
move up the rankings. Rankings are now static and only change after the rewards are given out. Only
the players rank changes on their own device. New rankings are calculated from the point totals
and any ties are based on who got the most points first.
Effect on Having High Health Compared to Low Health
Tankier aoe will be able to take a lot more hits as they should, glass cannon
won't be one shot but left unprotected a round of attacks can kill them.
Effect on debuffers/buffers
These now become much more important as do their turn amount.
Previously turn count for buffs was almost never looked at now having
offense up 2 turns or offense up 4 turns is a very big contention point between characters.
How do these changes effect the current meta speed teams?
Your team still go first if you have your poe go first, it will still have the intended
effect moving tied characters to the next round of attacks, however it won't allow
much slower enemies to go first since it is knocked down to 10% reduction. You will
have to expend 2 high damage single target attacks to possibly eliminate one person.
3-4 attacks to eliminate tankier targets. You have a much harder time with very tanky
teams especially ones with Boba fett/hk47 who can self res. Old Daka and Ewok Elder
now become your counter since they can res and heal tank characters that get killed in one turn by you.
Balance Goal - Prevent 1st Round One Shots and Make Tanks and Healers Relevant
Balance Idea - We reduce arena damage/healing/dot damage/health % bonuses(RG I am looking at you) by half
Math to Justify this Balance
Current Max Damage in a single turn without assist
FOTP - 6500 x 3
FOTP gets fixed, not nerfed, his double tap to go 2x.
After fix FOTP max damage 13000
New max damage any character can do first round without buffs or assist 6500.
Unable to one shot any max geared character.
Effect Analysis
Balance Adjustments/Fixes
Poe has his aoe turn reduction moved down to 10%, allows speed team go first still. Allows reduced
opposing speed team to go turn 9 instead of turn 10 making sure some slow heavy hitters are still going
last.
FOTP - Double Tap skill fixed to 2x not 3x.
DPS effect
1 attack is now not enough to kill a single person.
In certain very rare circumstances it is possible.
Quigon calls with assist fotp who has advantage and gets 2 crits.
Rey offense buffed, without any negative statuses, crits her 2nd special.
These one shots only occur on unbuffed glass cannon characters.
AOE dps
They are now slightly more useful, their damage scales down
with single targets but the debuffs they cause are now more important
in longer matches.
Tanks
Tanks in general are much more important now that they can survive
a lot of hits. Normally in high level pvp match the tanks
die in 1-2 hits versus current meta characters. They do
not serve their purpose of absorbing damage for the length
of their taunt and also they give less procs since less
people are hitting them. By taking 1/2 the damage the tanks that
are not Poe get buffed a lot since they are now able
to use their tanking skill at least once before being
killed. One of the reasons Poe is so good he unloads
all his tanks benefits right away, so having him survive
served no purpose and that is why he fits so well in the current
meta of tanks dying instantly.
Healers
Having their healing reduced by 1/2 is the only way that healing
can stay in balance with the dps. Health now lowers slowly and
there are ample oppurtunities to cast your heal
usually 1 or 2 times a match. Instead of targets instantly dying
from single target dps they have a chance to be healed up. With the balance
change Barris is now a good healer again(might need to look at her balance later).
Effect on Team Synergy
Now it will benefit you greatly to have one
tank, one healer, and then various support/dps. At the moment it is
all dps and poe, or just all dps.
Effect on Arena Time
Instead of matches being decided withing the
first round and being done in a minute or two. These new matches
should be more exciting and take 3+ minutes. A longer arena timer can and
should be implemented.
How to Eliminate Sniping and Arena Lock Outs
This is a necessity to allow for longer arena matches. Using this technique you
can remove the timer altogether from the match.
Firstly, get rid of spending crystals to get extra turns. Second give everyone 10 attempts. Each attempt
depending on who you fight gives a point value. When you are rank 1, if you
fight and beat rank two it is the same point value as beating yourself. If you win you
move up the rankings. Rankings are now static and only change after the rewards are given out. Only
the players rank changes on their own device. New rankings are calculated from the point totals
and any ties are based on who got the most points first.
Effect on Having High Health Compared to Low Health
Tankier aoe will be able to take a lot more hits as they should, glass cannon
won't be one shot but left unprotected a round of attacks can kill them.
Effect on debuffers/buffers
These now become much more important as do their turn amount.
Previously turn count for buffs was almost never looked at now having
offense up 2 turns or offense up 4 turns is a very big contention point between characters.
How do these changes effect the current meta speed teams?
Your team still go first if you have your poe go first, it will still have the intended
effect moving tied characters to the next round of attacks, however it won't allow
much slower enemies to go first since it is knocked down to 10% reduction. You will
have to expend 2 high damage single target attacks to possibly eliminate one person.
3-4 attacks to eliminate tankier targets. You have a much harder time with very tanky
teams especially ones with Boba fett/hk47 who can self res. Old Daka and Ewok Elder
now become your counter since they can res and heal tank characters that get killed in one turn by you.
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Replies
The reason is the characters the speed teams are picking off all have low armor, so this still wouldn't solve the one shot problem, it makes it once again necessary to have Poe since he is the only fast tank that can protect your damage dealers. We really need to move away from poe and speed meta by introducing some counters to them.
This is where I think there could be a real difference made. HP buffs and damage nerfs will give that top third in HP a pretty good advantage. Armor buffs would seem to effect tanks more. That would make them more viable in my opinion.
As for ranks, just implementing an elo rating system sort of thing would be a huge improvement.
I guess if done right, armor could make tanks be real tanks and squishies way less squish... Ex: Lets say a tank could go from 3 hits till death to 6 hits, and DPS could go from 1 to 2? 3? That's good enough for me... Would make a Poe+friends waste all its turn to kill 1 char and if RNG helps, hurt another one
You have remember there is a whole first order synergy that is dedicated to bypassing armor. By using armor that would automatically make them the best meta team.
Make Advantage cut armor by half not by 100%
Nerfs leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth, if CG learned nothing else from Barissgate, I'm sure they learned that.
There are already counters for them.
No one have that math other then CG/EA, we are all here just talking about a possible solution to the elephant in the room (damage). Im just saying that maybe making armor protect you, can have less impact then changing damage, hp pool and other stuff... Because who wins? Off Up or Def Up? I guess if defense worked, it could be at least a tie...
think about it like this
Let's say armor increased by 100% like in everyone's scenario
No armor buff
(1200-200)*1.5 = 1500 phys damage with offense up
(1200-400)*1.5= 1200 phys damage with offense up.
No armor def buff
(1200-(200*1.5)) = 900 damage
Armor buff def buff
(1200-(400*1.5)) = 600 damage - very low
With def buff on high armor tanks they become almost unkillable as their defense closes in on matching the enemies physical damage with def buff applied. This is an exponential growth. Characters like old Ben who have almost 400 armor at 70 would basically be unkillable.
Here's a summary infographic of your post, right after the enemy ends the first (but before 3 of my chars did anything):
Hence my entire paragraph on how to fix arena timers so they can be removed. I also stated healing is reduced by half. So healers shouldn't be overpowered just...relevant again.
Healers are in a relatively ok place.. some need a bit of work.. it's a little sad that the best healer isn't even tagged as a healer but attacker.
Tanks aside Poe really need to be improved... pretty much all of them... but the moment you increase the health on those, it makes healer/tanks team pretty much achieve what you mention...
Tanks don't really need to be able to taunt either.. Have them put one turn offense down debuffs on teams like Obi Wan does.. but have one who acts really fast like Poe.. This will effectively neuter fast attacking high damage specials for at least one turn... This effect is still counterable as there are debuffers in game which are hardly used.. I favor this option rather than a flat out damage output decrease... As this will allow a greater variety of teams than currently imo.
Game used to be fun when it wasn't a grind... if I wanted a grind I would have went and played old school Everquest or some Korean MMO!
JC currently heals for 40% of his max health. At lvl 70 JC has 10,728 health when fully starred/geared. His heal will do 4,291 hp, a little over half of Darth Mauls health at lvl 70 fully geared/starred (8570). If you double both JC & Darth Mauls health, JC will now heal for 8,582 hp but Maul will also have double his health, so the heal will still only be a little over 50% of Maul's total health. The effectiveness of the heal remains the same.
Fully agree
Not every healer heals for their max health.
Just more counters and adjustment like Fotps double shot and advatage bonus. Even give RG a 75-100% taunt proc rate instead of 40%. Adjust the speed caps to drop Poes turn down. So many better ways to handle this. IMO
What do you think will happen after 1/2 the damage?
Lets take princess leia critting old ben at 70.
Leia has sid leader, currently in stealth
At 100% armor buff leia does this damage
= (1551-626) = (925 base damage * 1.5 ability modifier)*1.95 crit modifier = 2705 damage
After Defense up is applied
=(1551-(626*1.5)) = (612 base damage * 1.5 ability modifier)*1.95 crit modifier = 1790 damage
1/2 damage instead of armor up
= (1551- 313) = ((1238 base damage * 1.5 ability modifier)*1.95 crit modifier)/2 = 1810
def up
=(1551- (313 * 1.5)) = ((1081 base damage * 1.5 ability modifier)*1.95 crit modifier)/2 = 1581
Wow actually 100% armor increase does look like a decent alternative for this scenario, however low armor people like Qui-Gon for instance at double armor only has 240 total armor. With his low health he can still be one-shot quite easily. Maybe like a combination of 25% armor increase and 25% less damage?
Example? If you're referring to Talia because her heal % is based on how much damage she does that % could simply also be doubled along with all character's health to keep the heal effectiveness the same.
I'm just saying that mathematically it appears that halving arena damage or doubling arena health accomplish the same thing. They are both solutions to slow down Arena play so characters have an opportunity to actually make an impact on the battle rather than get instakilled.
Also, I think it should be noted that doubling health or halving damage might increase the time to finish a match so the timer might need to be looked at as well, especially at lower levels.