My Radical Thoughts on Mods
I'd like to start off by saying that I'm generally a very open critic of game design, but haven't had much to say recently. Between the character release cadence, the QoL changes, the massive number of farmable characters (the ratio of F2P to P2P has shifted greatly), and even most of the balance updates, the game has been moving in an unexpectedly player-friendly direction. There has been one thing, though, that has been bugging me ever since I returned to the game about three months ago...
Mods. I can deal with bad drop rates on gear and character shards. RNG is RNG, but at least a little visible progress can be made on a daily/weekly basis. I know what I'm getting in to every time I sim a hard node or cantina node. I know that zeta drops can be frustrating sometimes, but still, there's just one specific item in mind each time I farm there. The same cannot be said for mods.
Mods are an incredibly complex system that is just begging to be put into the hands of the players. RNG is not something that should be allowed to manage something as complicated as mods. As a player, you likely have at least a rough idea on what stats your mods would ideally have. Each character's needs can be tailored and changed to intense levels of specificity. It is a system that could, and arguably should, allow players to pick and choose exactly where they want their strengths and weaknesses to be.
Gear is static, levels are static, stars are static. Everyone in the game with a maxed out toon will have the same exact power level and stats until you factor in mods. But what did they give control over this new, robust, groundbreaking power to control and modify out units in a unique and powerful way? Into the hands of RNG, just like most things in the game.
If that doesn't sound asinine yet, you probably either don't care, or haven't thought about it enough.
Here is why RNG governance is such a ludicrous thing to abide by in the instance of mods. If you want to spend time farming one specific mod - just one - and get the exact stats that you want, odds are that it will never happen. The statistical probability of getting the exact stats you need is so incredibly low that you could spend years farming and refreshing the mod shop without seeing it. This is because of the number of variables each individual mod contains. There is rarity (E-A), grade (mk1-mk5), slot (there are 6 unique mod types), and of course, a long, long list of stats that, if it isn't an A-tier mod, aren't even visible until after you've invested in them. And worst of all, out of the two visible stats we could potentially be shown, two of them (again selected at random) will not receive the benefits of leveling the mod. The sheer number of potential mod combinations that exist is mind boggling, and the odds that you will get what you need are incredibly low.
This problem is alleviated somewhat by the fact that the only thing we as players need is speed mods and speed secondaries, but that itself is a whole other issue. Consider that if the ability to edit a mod's stats was given to the player, no matter how limited our abilities to edit, we as players would opt to select speed secondaries every single time. It is objectively the strongest secondary stat there is, no questions asked. This is a game where every last point of speed can mean the difference between victory and defeat - on a larger scale it can mean the difference between high tier and mid tier players.
I know this is asking a lot, I know some players may not be as invested in the game and its strategy, I know that EA has plenty of other priorities, but... a bad design is a bad design. The strategic possibilities presented by mods are directly contradicted both by the overwhelming dominance of the speed stat, and the player's complete and utter inability to control the stats provided. What is the purpose behind a complicated system like this that relies entirely on random chance? Game design will again and again return to the problem of game feel and player satisfaction. I challenge anyone to refresh cantina energy twice and spend all of it on farming mod challenges, and say that they are satisfied. Best case scenario, the player would still receive more worthless junk to be sold or haphazardly thrown onto less valuable characters than they would anything remotely useful.
I can already hear the comments proclaiming "but mod challenges are dumb, just farm from shipments!". Alright, imaginary devil's advocate, I raise you this, then. How does it feel to finally see a high tier, rare mod with a speed secondary, only to later find that speed is not one of the chosen stats to be upgraded upon leveling the mod? Furthermore, for something that takes such a massive investment to even unlock, the gear challenges are offensively useless. I think everyone can agree on that point. To what end am I farming a team of otherwise worthless jawas if the mod shipments can provide better drops at the end of the day? I was excited at first to see the mod challenges encouraging branching out our rosters, but severely disappointed to find that it's largely a waste of time.
To carry the issue with mod challenges even further, players are required to sacrifice cantina energy for absolute junk 95% of the time. And yet, mods are necessary. They are powerful. They are the only thing that separates the best of the best. To not farm mods would be equally as painful a choice as giving up on cantina farms, which is made all the worse by the fact that cantina nodes offer visible progress. If I spend 2 refreshes and a full energy bar on cantina, I might get horrible drops, but I will get something, and that's what counts. I would like to use my energy on a definite source of progress, but my hand is all but forced to throw energy into the garbage bin on the hopes that I'll get a mod above Grade E...
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I wrote quite a bit here, I apologize for that. I will attempt now to organize all of this into a tl;dr of sorts. But it's still tl. My bad.
Idea:The mod system is complex and unique and allows players to modify characters to their own individual needs and make meaningful tactical decisions.
Contradicion: The mod system is governed entirely by RNG, meaning that by definition no real tactical decisions can be made. We simply take what we can get. The mod system is also flawed in the utter dominance of the speed stat. In other words, it is the only stat that matters, and therefore there is no meaningful decision making. You are either lucky and receive speed, or you are not, and the mod is "ehh" at best.
Idea: The mod challenges will encourage players to expand their rosters so that they can unlock a powerful new way to farm specific mods and tailor their teams to their needs.
Contradiction: The mod challenges are basically junk. They are most definitely not worth the investment of gearing and leveling five toons from a faction. It could be, but it isn't.
Idea: Mod shipments can supplement mod challenge farming, and can reliably reward players who save up crystals and credits with specific mods.
Contradiction: No they can't. Stats are rolled at random, so even assuming you see the ideal mod, it must still pass through an additional layer of RNG before it can be determined useful. That is the best case scenario. Keep in mind that the best case scenario hardly ever occurs.
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I would suggest a fix for the issues discussed above, but I feel that I would then be writing far, far too much. The general idea is that, however it is done, the power to select a mod's stats would be put into the hands of the player. Progression would be slow, just as all other parts of the game, but it wouldn't be random. You could grind for a week and only achieve a single perfectly tailored mod, but you would have achieved it yourself. You would have decided what you needed, thought about it carefully, and made a choice. Your decisions would not be handed down to you by the almighty RNG, and as a result the more thoughtful and invested players would benefit. New builds and metas would be built around mods, experimentation and trial and error would flourish. Everything would feel competitive and fresh, yet fair. That's the kind of dream world I live in, though I doubt it will ever come to fruition.
If you want me to summarize everything I've written here in a single sentence, here it goes: RNG can impede our progress, and it can bolster our progress, but it should never dictate our progress.
__________________________________________________________________________________
If anyone genuinely took the time to read all of that, color me impressed. This was just something I had to get off my chest, regardless of whether or not anyone cares or even agrees. Thanks for reading and have a lovely afternoon!
Mods. I can deal with bad drop rates on gear and character shards. RNG is RNG, but at least a little visible progress can be made on a daily/weekly basis. I know what I'm getting in to every time I sim a hard node or cantina node. I know that zeta drops can be frustrating sometimes, but still, there's just one specific item in mind each time I farm there. The same cannot be said for mods.
Mods are an incredibly complex system that is just begging to be put into the hands of the players. RNG is not something that should be allowed to manage something as complicated as mods. As a player, you likely have at least a rough idea on what stats your mods would ideally have. Each character's needs can be tailored and changed to intense levels of specificity. It is a system that could, and arguably should, allow players to pick and choose exactly where they want their strengths and weaknesses to be.
Gear is static, levels are static, stars are static. Everyone in the game with a maxed out toon will have the same exact power level and stats until you factor in mods. But what did they give control over this new, robust, groundbreaking power to control and modify out units in a unique and powerful way? Into the hands of RNG, just like most things in the game.
If that doesn't sound asinine yet, you probably either don't care, or haven't thought about it enough.
Here is why RNG governance is such a ludicrous thing to abide by in the instance of mods. If you want to spend time farming one specific mod - just one - and get the exact stats that you want, odds are that it will never happen. The statistical probability of getting the exact stats you need is so incredibly low that you could spend years farming and refreshing the mod shop without seeing it. This is because of the number of variables each individual mod contains. There is rarity (E-A), grade (mk1-mk5), slot (there are 6 unique mod types), and of course, a long, long list of stats that, if it isn't an A-tier mod, aren't even visible until after you've invested in them. And worst of all, out of the two visible stats we could potentially be shown, two of them (again selected at random) will not receive the benefits of leveling the mod. The sheer number of potential mod combinations that exist is mind boggling, and the odds that you will get what you need are incredibly low.
This problem is alleviated somewhat by the fact that the only thing we as players need is speed mods and speed secondaries, but that itself is a whole other issue. Consider that if the ability to edit a mod's stats was given to the player, no matter how limited our abilities to edit, we as players would opt to select speed secondaries every single time. It is objectively the strongest secondary stat there is, no questions asked. This is a game where every last point of speed can mean the difference between victory and defeat - on a larger scale it can mean the difference between high tier and mid tier players.
I know this is asking a lot, I know some players may not be as invested in the game and its strategy, I know that EA has plenty of other priorities, but... a bad design is a bad design. The strategic possibilities presented by mods are directly contradicted both by the overwhelming dominance of the speed stat, and the player's complete and utter inability to control the stats provided. What is the purpose behind a complicated system like this that relies entirely on random chance? Game design will again and again return to the problem of game feel and player satisfaction. I challenge anyone to refresh cantina energy twice and spend all of it on farming mod challenges, and say that they are satisfied. Best case scenario, the player would still receive more worthless junk to be sold or haphazardly thrown onto less valuable characters than they would anything remotely useful.
I can already hear the comments proclaiming "but mod challenges are dumb, just farm from shipments!". Alright, imaginary devil's advocate, I raise you this, then. How does it feel to finally see a high tier, rare mod with a speed secondary, only to later find that speed is not one of the chosen stats to be upgraded upon leveling the mod? Furthermore, for something that takes such a massive investment to even unlock, the gear challenges are offensively useless. I think everyone can agree on that point. To what end am I farming a team of otherwise worthless jawas if the mod shipments can provide better drops at the end of the day? I was excited at first to see the mod challenges encouraging branching out our rosters, but severely disappointed to find that it's largely a waste of time.
To carry the issue with mod challenges even further, players are required to sacrifice cantina energy for absolute junk 95% of the time. And yet, mods are necessary. They are powerful. They are the only thing that separates the best of the best. To not farm mods would be equally as painful a choice as giving up on cantina farms, which is made all the worse by the fact that cantina nodes offer visible progress. If I spend 2 refreshes and a full energy bar on cantina, I might get horrible drops, but I will get something, and that's what counts. I would like to use my energy on a definite source of progress, but my hand is all but forced to throw energy into the garbage bin on the hopes that I'll get a mod above Grade E...
__________________________________________________________________________________
I wrote quite a bit here, I apologize for that. I will attempt now to organize all of this into a tl;dr of sorts. But it's still tl. My bad.
Idea:The mod system is complex and unique and allows players to modify characters to their own individual needs and make meaningful tactical decisions.
Contradicion: The mod system is governed entirely by RNG, meaning that by definition no real tactical decisions can be made. We simply take what we can get. The mod system is also flawed in the utter dominance of the speed stat. In other words, it is the only stat that matters, and therefore there is no meaningful decision making. You are either lucky and receive speed, or you are not, and the mod is "ehh" at best.
Idea: The mod challenges will encourage players to expand their rosters so that they can unlock a powerful new way to farm specific mods and tailor their teams to their needs.
Contradiction: The mod challenges are basically junk. They are most definitely not worth the investment of gearing and leveling five toons from a faction. It could be, but it isn't.
Idea: Mod shipments can supplement mod challenge farming, and can reliably reward players who save up crystals and credits with specific mods.
Contradiction: No they can't. Stats are rolled at random, so even assuming you see the ideal mod, it must still pass through an additional layer of RNG before it can be determined useful. That is the best case scenario. Keep in mind that the best case scenario hardly ever occurs.
__________________________________________________________________________________
I would suggest a fix for the issues discussed above, but I feel that I would then be writing far, far too much. The general idea is that, however it is done, the power to select a mod's stats would be put into the hands of the player. Progression would be slow, just as all other parts of the game, but it wouldn't be random. You could grind for a week and only achieve a single perfectly tailored mod, but you would have achieved it yourself. You would have decided what you needed, thought about it carefully, and made a choice. Your decisions would not be handed down to you by the almighty RNG, and as a result the more thoughtful and invested players would benefit. New builds and metas would be built around mods, experimentation and trial and error would flourish. Everything would feel competitive and fresh, yet fair. That's the kind of dream world I live in, though I doubt it will ever come to fruition.
If you want me to summarize everything I've written here in a single sentence, here it goes: RNG can impede our progress, and it can bolster our progress, but it should never dictate our progress.
__________________________________________________________________________________
If anyone genuinely took the time to read all of that, color me impressed. This was just something I had to get off my chest, regardless of whether or not anyone cares or even agrees. Thanks for reading and have a lovely afternoon!
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I have so many o mods now its unreal.
RNG yes ok I know it works on that but really..... the drop rates are pathetic for some
And in this day and age, if you strip RNG from mods entirely, then the precise "best" mod setup for each toon will be calculated and distributed. Without RNG, mods will also become static.
If that happens, then I and those like me who enjoy variety in games will /quit.
So, while it would be nice to maybe allow farming of specific mod slots (i.e., arrows) in challenges, I disagree with most of your post.
Finally:
"I would suggest a fix for the issues discussed above, but I feel that I would then be writing far, far too much."
No such thing. People will still read it. Make your suggestions. Otherwise your point, however well articulated, can always be summarized as "wah wah this sucks".
https://swgoh.gg/u/arkham/, A Team
I do agree with others that if we could really tailor mods they way we wanted everyone would end up with the same, best in slot, mods for each toon - which isn't what anyone wants I don't think. I do support the idea of being able to farm for certain shapes that we are in short supply of.
I also agree with the concept of "getting nothing" being an issue. Someone brought this up in the zeta challenge thread and it sort of made sense. Drop rates for gear, shards, etc can suck but you generally walk away with at least 1 shard or item towards your end goal. You may feel you didn't get enough, but you at least can feel like you got "something". The zeta challenges exist to give zetas. And days that you receive 0 just feels crappy lol. I feel mods to be very similar. I can drop 120 energy on a mod sim and receive 0 mods easily. Other times you walk away with one or two white mods for the wrong shapes, which essentially amounts to having gotten nothing. The feeling of progressing is missing - you're just spinning a wheel, not farming for anything in particular and it's mentally defeating lol. Farming for specific shapes would be a great start honestly. If I really need a circle mod upgrade, at least when a mod does drop it'll be a circle to try out!
Like @Arkham said... nobody wants all things static...that was the poe meta and it failed... miserably.
The RNG is not so much a $ grab....but rather a buffer to ensure it will take a long long long time for the frequency of high speed mods to become the norm, and the resurgence of coin-flip matches being only way to win in arena.
As it stands currently there is alot of variety in the arena now and its good...it not like the top 100 are all poe lead droid teams that are dependent on a single 50/50 coin flip to determine who goes first and wins...theres no 100+ way tie. As it stands in my shard i can go from top 10 to rank 50+ in a day and back to top 10 the next. And every team is different...every single one. I for one enjoy the variety of arena currently and if new mods like stun, counter and debuff immunity are introduced to slow and delay the impending speed meta then so be it.
For those who were around for the Poe Dameron era (January 2016 - Feburary 2016 if I'm not mistaken) know how BAD this is. Where everyone has the exact same speed stat so it's impossible to know who goes first and whoever does go first, wins. In this case it would be zMaul vszMaul and whoever goes first, wins. That makes for an incredibly boring game.
The only way to get rid of the RNG system for mods while maintaining competition would be to do a complete revamp of mods. Which is HIGHLY unlikely to ever happen because of how much people have already invested into them.
If that happens, then I and those like me who enjoy variety in games will /quit."
Multiple people seem to be under the impression that the mod meta would become equally static. First of all, it's doubtful. There are too many combinations of statistics and too many combinations of characters, character interactions, and team dynamics. Any single "best" option would be an illusion followed by the masses for no other reason than a lack of individual exploration - known to some as a sheep mentality. This is under the assumption that other stats are brought in line with the strength of speed, whether speed is nerfed or other secondaries are buffed. So you're right, in its current state there wouldn't be much variety in terms of mods. Literally everyone would opt for the highest speed they could achieve. I discussed that in the post as well and consider it to be equally toxic, and furthermore would not recommend that one change be made without the other.
Next up, everything was static before the addition of mods. Did you play then, or did you /quit? It would be completely incorrect to state that mods are the only source of variety in this game - heck, they aren't even the biggest source of variety. Ultimately it only begs the question, do you want three equal stats and one that is your choice, or three equal stats and one that is influenced only by RNG and, to a lesser degree, how much money you're willing to spend?
It would be nice to be able to put accuracy on a toon without having to give up your only speed primary. Stacking potency AND tenacity would be nice.
It would open the door to more variety, allowing more people to progress, while not making the harder mods to get any easier to get. Arrows can still be a rarer drop than others. Speed on a box can be as rare as speed on an arrow, but at least it makes it so that ANY mod can be an upgrade.
It would enable people to pick the one most powerful stat on a mod they want and have it unaffected by RNG, however, getting that mod would still be RNG, and all the secondaries would still work the same way.
So you could stack your team's speed easier, but you'd still have to farm for a while to get the crit you want with wedge's lead, or the max health you'd want on your sith team under a nihilus lead, etc.It's simply putting ONE element of mods under player control instead of RNG, there are still like 5 others that are totally RNG dominated.
Farming MODs is actually less enjoyable than farming stun cuffs.
I have no idea how CG managed that feat.
Like 6 primaries with speed?
Potency/tenacity comes to mind but not in its current form which is skewed significantly towards the former. Possible solution:
1. Get rid of base 15%resist
2. If skill has 100% to apply effect it happens as long as potency > tenacity and gets resisted if opposite
3. Rebalance potency and tenacity so it starts on even footing(more or less). Some toons can have higher base stats as long as it fits their skillset and is possible to overcome with mods
Suddenly your first action boba/palp/whatever is useless cause you've focused on speed and neglected potency while ive stacked tenacity.
Do something similiar with defense, crit avoidance etc and you get more open game. Rock/paper/scissors if you will.
Now i didnt think about this an awfull lot. Im sure people will point out flaws with the idea and it's own set of problems it would create but mods in the current form are simply limited and should be worked on one way or another.
I'd also say - IDEA: there was some promise that Mods would let you customize your toon, so we didn't all have the same exact Vader.
CONTRADICTION: as it turned out, it was just a cash grab to get more speed then the other guy - everything else would just be gravy/pick and match as best as you can only in so far as you have the highest speed possible.
The problem is just how much better would the other mods need to be? I mean, speed isn't just about getting more hits per se, but getting through cool downs to use your specials more often. Many of the specials and AoE's are about shutting down the opponent (daze, ability lock, shock, stun, buff immunity, etc) - what does it matter if you bump up your offense by 15 or 50, ultimately, if you never get a chance to attack effectively.
That's, really, the issue. Speed is so, so powerful that buffing the other abilities wouldn't even fix the issue.
It's been mentioned a few times, Speed was always a sore point, for a while having 1 more speed (or losing it) was a huge friggin' deal. So rather then work on it, they just abandoned all hope and opened Pandora's Box, releasing Mods.
In doing so it ripped up any old notion of slow tank, or moderate speed high dam attacker. With some rng and $$ you can make any toon perform amazingly well. Which, is why, I've seen a lot of people calling it SW: galaxy of mods. Sure, the arena is a little more diverse these days, but it's not very and it's utterly due to speed being king.
IDK - maybe if every toons base resistance was upped - Potency would be required to land more of the debuffs?
If every toons base defense was upped, a % from def mods would mean more - and offense mods would be required to get anywhere? Maybe a new % to counter mod could replace speed somewhat - but wouldn't help any of the other mods to equalize. If Health mods ALSO gave health steal - maybe they could find their way into a DN lead.
^^^ but, I don't think even these steps would do anything.
If everyone's OP, nobody is.
First off, make them shape specific for each different mod challenge, and along with this, not only are we spending valuable cantina energy, we are farming seperate characters so we can do these challenges. By making mods a 100% drop rate, but still make the higher tiered ones more rare, we get that feeling of progression as we come out of dropping 120 cantina energy with about 7 mods, not all rare or anything, but now you at least have mods you have already spent so much effort to even be able to get
There would still be ppl considered OP, that wouldn't change. Moot point tho, mods make money so nothings likely to change. And at least now there's more variety than when everyone had the same exact toons.
Or at least not getting 3* mods in tier 3
Man makes club, which by swing increases the speed at end of club increasing the force with which he could strike. ... speed wins
Man beaten by club makes bow and arrow which fires arrow at high speed. ...speed wins
Man makes armor, but then man also makes bows with heavier draw producing more speed than beats even the thickest armors. speed wins
Roman legion adopts gladius over other weapons because of its speed and maneuverability, conquers half the known world.
Mongol horde uses bow on horseback (speed + more speed) to conquer all of the known world.
Raiper beats big swords by speed....thus ending the age of greatswords, longswords, etc...
Firearms beat bows and melee weapons due to speed.
Revolver beats si gle shot firearm...speed wins
Machine gun beats revovler...speed wins
Missles beat firearms...speed
You get the picture...
Speed will win regardless...so why for siths sake would you want to speed up the road to a 1 team speed meta by making specfic shaped mods farmable?
If anything we need tenacity/potency reworks to slow the progress of the speed event horizion and more new mods like retribution, stun, xtra turn (like b2) and dodge.
Everyone progresses at a relatively similar rate, accelerated slightly by amount of money spent. That rate is unapologetically miserable. It isn't a winning system for anyone, really. Random, worthless gear that gets sold as quickly as it's acquired day in day out for months just for a single set of worthwhile material? Count me out. It feels like a complete waste of time and energy to farm, and yet I am begrudgingly forced to admit that it's necessary.
This post is asking for two things:
1. An overhaul in the way we acquire and power up mods - increased rate of farming, more predictability, fair returns for deep investments, etc.
2. A re-balance/overhaul of the mod statistics, specifically to tone down the absolute monopoly that speed currently has. It's asking a lot, but I think the speed secondary meta is the most oppressive thing to ever take hold of this game. Even the Poe era had the rare exception to the Poe rule. The current state of the game, though? No other secondary stats even matter. They simply aren't relevant. If it isn't speed, it may as well not be there.
If they ever do introduce higher star mods they almost have to put an ability to upgrade existing mods, and if they did that they could allow mods lower than five stars to be upgraded as well. I would love to be able to upgrade some of my existing three dot mods, even if it required a bunch of other three dot mods if the same shape, set, and primary.
6 speed primaries is fine, if it resulted in the character having reduced accuracy, avoidance, potency, tenacity, critical chance and damage, health and protection. If the difference is enough to matter, then it's acceptable for a character to have all speed.
I would rather have 50/50 RNG at time of battle, then RNG where I win or lose every time. Basically those uber speed mods are like a character you just can't reliably get. The only way to "try" harder is to dump everything, cash etc into it for a "hope" to catch up. Its not at all like farming for a character.
Quite honestly a mirror match should be RNG.
The issue is the HUGE variance in the speed stat and how it completely messes up balance imo. We routinely see close to 80-100% speed gains from mods... imo speed is such an important balancing stat that this just shouldn't be possible.
Slow characters that have a powerful AOE can become a fast go first character because of the huge variance, High DPS character can go first etc etc. IF the variance of the stat was smaller it would be much more difficult to have slower characters completely outclass naturally faster ones.
The wiggs meta was dominated simply by fast OHK at round open... this imo should NEVER happen. Zaul is now forming into a similar meta and again slower characters are being sped up to go first but instead of completely dropping someone it cripples them to uselessness.