They have counters!

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Don't you just love this response:" they have counters" ?
It is a magical one, the answer to all possible complains about any toon, no matter how OP. Try it, it's fun!
For example: the toon is over used in the arena.
Yeah but he has counters!
or
They have half of the abilities on the game in just 2 toons. Yeah but they have counters!

It works for anything!, 3 little words have just made everything you posted invalid :)

Replies

  • pchen3082
    254 posts Member
    I don't get it, what's wrong with it?
  • "I couldn't beat a Chaze team but I know people will give me flack if I say it outright"
  • Don't you just love this response:" they have counters" ?
    It is a magical one, the answer to all possible complains about any toon, no matter how OP. Try it, it's fun!
    For example: the toon is over used in the arena.
    Yeah but he has counters!
    or
    They have half of the abilities on the game in just 2 toons. Yeah but they have counters!

    It works for anything!, 3 little words have just made everything you posted invalid :)

    But it's true.

    SnakesOnAPlane
  • Huatimus
    3669 posts Member
    Except when you build a full team of counters and suddenly drop like a rock in rankings and wonder what happened.
  • IvoB1987
    445 posts Member
    not sure if sarcasm or not...
  • Juex777
    968 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Yes. Not all toons are created equal. This game takes considerable time to develop anything. It's all about slowly, slowly building. There are tons of YouTube videos about op squads and their counters. All these squads take considerable time to build.... As do their counters. Do a YouTube search for swgoh. Add names like "warrior" and "Smithie d" to your search. Check out the other youtubers in the side bars.

    This game can be frustrating at times yes. Many combos and teams have shown up along the way that have been really difficult to deal with.

    People have invested an incredible amount of time and sometimes a lot of real world resources to develop these toons you're screaming to be nerfed. It would create huge backlash among long term established players. R2 is an example of the flow of this game.... It ebbs and it flows and I highly recommend doing your research before you invest valuable time and game resources if you don't want to be completely frustrated.

    What your are suggesting would be indigestible for people who have invested so much time and energy into their toons.
  • pchen3082 wrote: »
    I don't get it, what's wrong with it?

    It's simple. Nobody takes in consideration how good those counters actually are as standalone toons, how much they bring to the team besides countering other toon or how available are they. Their simple existance is reason enough to put everything you want, even gamebreaking, into a toon. The fact the GSpy exist is enough to Say Baze is not OP.
  • Juex777
    968 posts Member
    pchen3082 wrote: »
    I don't get it, what's wrong with it?

    It's simple. Nobody takes in consideration how good those counters actually are as standalone toons, how much they bring to the team besides countering other toon or how available are they. Their simple existance is reason enough to put everything you want, even gamebreaking, into a toon. The fact the GSpy exist is enough to Say Baze is not OP.

    I have found that the counters themselves are excellent toons. This is true.
  • Also lets compare B2 and Baze, OP toon and hos counter, since theybare both tanks.
    Baze: pretaunt and autotaunt, retribution, dispel, expose + great sinergy and anti faction abilities.
    B2: dispel, sometimes buff imunity.
    But B2 existing is reason enough that Baze should stay as he is.
  • Juex777
    968 posts Member
    Lots of toons are op. Op doesn't mean unbeatable. Also some teams and factions are awesome against certain teams and are torn a apart liked paper against others. Z-Vader for example destroys the Rex meta.
  • Juex777 wrote: »
    pchen3082 wrote: »
    I don't get it, what's wrong with it?

    It's simple. Nobody takes in consideration how good those counters actually are as standalone toons, how much they bring to the team besides countering other toon or how available are they. Their simple existance is reason enough to put everything you want, even gamebreaking, into a toon. The fact the GSpy exist is enough to Say Baze is not OP.

    I have found that the counters themselves are excellent toons. This is true.

    How many of this counters are truly excellent, is there even one counter even close to power or utility to the toon is countering.
    Also do this counters have sinergies between them? this is not a vacuum, a 1 vs 1 battle between toon and counter.
  • Juex777
    968 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Juex777 wrote: »
    pchen3082 wrote: »
    I don't get it, what's wrong with it?

    It's simple. Nobody takes in consideration how good those counters actually are as standalone toons, how much they bring to the team besides countering other toon or how available are they. Their simple existance is reason enough to put everything you want, even gamebreaking, into a toon. The fact the GSpy exist is enough to Say Baze is not OP.

    I have found that the counters themselves are excellent toons. This is true.

    How many of this counters are truly excellent, is there even one counter even close to power or utility to the toon is countering.
    Also do this counters have sinergies between them? this is not a vacuum, a 1 vs 1 battle between toon and counter.

    Let's see. DN, EP, Boba, troopers, Zader, yep.... Pretty good toons
  • Juex777
    968 posts Member
    Don't expect a single toon counter for a multi toon meta.

  • Juex777
    968 posts Member
    Combos... Synergy.... Do your research. YouTube rocks
  • "I couldn't beat a Chaze team but I know people will give me flack if I say it outright"

    https://swgoh.gg/u/danflorian1984/
    Are you sure?
  • SkyeLeonne
    252 posts Member
    This is so true...
  • Gavstar
    214 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Here a few counters,

    Zader counters the HoT with DoT, has unavoidable Cull with damage multiplier for debuffs.
    DNihilus counters buffs by dispelling them, and annihilates someone after 3-4 turns.
    Boba Fett counters buffs/debuffs stacks with Execute. Bounty Hunter Resolve allows targeting outside taunts.
    Together in a team, provide 3 types of insta-kill.

    As for individual toons: Zooku, Zkylo and Zavage would be able to beat Chirrut or Baze 1-on-1.

    You don't have any of the counter toons above? Oh NO! Well how about spending the next 2 months farming and building them like I did to counter the Rex + Chaze teams. I did this 3 months ago and haven't spent a cent on swgoh.

    Regards,
  • Jay_cube1
    379 posts Member
    Yes but they have counters fam! ;)
  • This is not only meant to Chaze! although is the last one. The same thing happened with Wiggs when people siting in the first place that used them, surrounded only by users of Wiggs loves taking about Wiggs counters. The same thing with Zaul, even though triple cleanse was way more effective than any other meta. etc.
  • Aero
    2972 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    pchen3082 wrote: »
    I don't get it, what's wrong with it?

    Using the argument that something has a counter means it is balanced implies that balance is binary. It is either so broken that nothing can beat it, or it is fine.

    Imagine a physical balance that you use to compare weights. The above logic would say that unless one side is all the down way it is balanced, yet actually if it is leaning one way or the other at all it isn't balanced.

    It may be unreasonable to expect everything to be perfectly balanced, but i don't think we have to wait until something hits the floor on one side to say it isn't balanced.
  • Jay_cube1 wrote: »
    Yes but they have counters fam! ;)

    But the counters have their own counters !
  • leef
    12588 posts Member
    This is not only meant to Chaze! although is the last one. The same thing happened with Wiggs when people siting in the first place that used them, surrounded only by users of Wiggs loves taking about Wiggs counters. The same thing with Zaul, even though triple cleanse was way more effective than any other meta. etc.

    So what are you saying? it will blow over, just like rey, wiggs, maul?
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • AndrewIss
    171 posts Member
    Totally agree with op.
    I think it should be very easy to understand: having a counter and being op are not in contrast. A toon can be op while having a counter.
    Counters are bad design choices to other bad design choices
    Obviously some toons are bound to be better than others, that doesn't mean they are automatically op. Rey has been great for a long time, never op. Same with palpatine. Other toons... not so much
  • Waez
    286 posts Member
    Just going to c/p a comment I wrote yesterday.
    It's about calling a team balanced when it can be beaten, which is a very weird view on game balance.

    Argument: X team can be beaten so it's fine to leave it as it is. If a team can be beaten, then it's balanced.

    Reality: X team can ONLY be beaten by very specific characters. Any team that doesn't include these characters can't be used in Arena. The whole game suffers from a lack of diversity.

    Zaul could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team that relies on Assists/TM gain/Counter

    Chaze could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team with no mass/regular dispell.

    ZVader could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team with no cleanse.

    Wiggs could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team without a pre-taunter.

    Evasion teams could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any player that had poor RNG.

    Poe teams could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team without Poe.

    Barris/healing teams could be beaten but still pushed out of the meta any team without Sidious.

    CAN BE BEATEN =/= BALANCED

    If you think so, you have very poor knowledge in game design, game balance, and poor basic logic.

    Ironically, since Baze and Chirrut are good at
    - Inflicting debuffs and dispelling buffs on the enemy team
    - Cleansing debuffs and giving buffs to your team

    The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.
  • Don't you just love this response:" they have counters" ?
    It is a magical one, the answer to all possible complains about any toon, no matter how OP. Try it, it's fun!
    For example: the toon is over used in the arena.
    Yeah but he has counters!
    or
    They have half of the abilities on the game in just 2 toons. Yeah but they have counters!

    It works for anything!, 3 little words have just made everything you posted invalid :)

    Gosh, another of these.

    @BentWookiee please close this, before the troll dies of overeating.
  • Jimbob
    58 posts Member
    Also lets compare B2 and Baze, OP toon and hos counter, since theybare both tanks.
    Baze: pretaunt and autotaunt, retribution, dispel, expose + great sinergy and anti faction abilities.
    B2: dispel, sometimes buff imunity.
    But B2 existing is reason enough that Baze should stay as he is.

    If that's all you think B2 does, you don't understand B2. He dispells faster than a triple cleanse team cleanses. He doesn't need speed so you can load him with accuracy and he has anti evasion on basic. He's perfect against zaul, triple cleanse Rex, and double foresight Jedi teams. What more do you want from the little guy in this meta?
  • Jimbob wrote: »
    Also lets compare B2 and Baze, OP toon and hos counter, since theybare both tanks.
    Baze: pretaunt and autotaunt, retribution, dispel, expose + great sinergy and anti faction abilities.
    B2: dispel, sometimes buff imunity.
    But B2 existing is reason enough that Baze should stay as he is.

    If that's all you think B2 does, you don't understand B2. He dispells faster than a triple cleanse team cleanses. He doesn't need speed so you can load him with accuracy and he has anti evasion on basic. He's perfect against zaul, triple cleanse Rex, and double foresight Jedi teams. What more do you want from the little guy in this meta?

    B2's unique allows him to buff wipe all the time.
  • I know what B2 does since I use him. I also know what a liability he is regarding everything else beside dispeling. And that while the toons that he is countering have enough abilities for a couple more toons.
  • I know what B2 does since I use him. I also know what a liability he is regarding everything else beside dispeling. And that while the toons that he is countering have enough abilities for a couple more toons.

    have you heard of Boba, Sun Fac, Nihilus, or Jyn/Cassian?
  • GA_Phoenix
    298 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Waez wrote: »
    The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.

    I'dont think so!

    An good moddet zKrooper Duo has good cards to deal with Chase in an 2 vs 2 Match because of the bad KI the anti-rebel-synergies and Krennics Leadskill. :wink:

    After Chirut first Turm, DT debuffs and inflicts Healing immunity, then DK uses his AOE calling DT to assist inflicting Daze and Stun on Chirrut. Next Baze maybe is doing minor Damage before Chirrut loses his stun. He is then abbillity blocked or stunned (or both) again by DT. Krennic will inflict buffblock on Baze and from this point on it's game Over for the Rebels

    The main problem ... its all theory, there are no 2 vs 2 Matches and RNG sucks. ^^

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