This is a simple solution/change for Zfinn lead.
Resistance team members get turn better when a resistance ally damages an enemy with expose. To counter how this weakens Zfinn slightly, add something to it(More offense, tenancity or Crit chance avoidance for example)
Boom fixes the main problem, does make traya tougher for other teams or weaken Zfinn lead pre-3po.
I was definitely confused about the post on fixing zFinn. I truly hoped he wouldn't be touched through this.
Traya is clearly either broken, or over protected. There is no reason to continue to ruin characters simply because they are successful against one piece of content.
I just don’t understand why they care if a team can solo 1/4th of a raid at this point. The team and mods necessary to do this are almost exclusive to anyone who has had it on farm for so many months at this point so who the hell should care?
Raids at this point once on farm status for this length of time are as much fun as banning a ton of characters for TW. Focus your attention on anything else, it’s phase 3 I think we can all just move on.
'I just don’t understand why they care if a team can solo 1/4th of a raid at this point.'
Exactly. It's been out for nearly a year, it's never been enjoyable and you had to be an early adopter of a Legendary character to do it.
They don’t have another challenging content on the horizon. P3 is still the crux of defeating the raid.
I think it’s great that we can finally 3/4 auto solo the haat, then targeting zfinn takes that away
At least they put an update for it and road ahead that’s small progress. And said they are looking at other options for p3 Sith.
With the return of revan coming up this shouldn’t be an issue. And it feels like it’s going to be another Vader situation. Change a team up so a new more powerful toon is released that will do the same thing.
You guys don't get that zfinn and c3po can create endlessloops everywhere, or do you?
This is what people don't seem to get about this. The loop works everywhere, not just in the Sith raid, provided you can get the first Expose off. Changing Traya would just be a band-aid; all future content would have to be designed with the lolinfiniteloop team in mind.
I still think the best solution would be for C3P0 to add some other effect than Expose to rebels and ewoks, but it still seems far more likely that Finn will be changed somehow instead.
You guys don't get that zfinn and c3po can create endlessloops everywhere, or do you?
They should’ve tested for it though. It’s not a stretch to have tested a leaderless faction legendary toon with their faction leaders in newer content.
Yeah except zfinn has always caused somewhat of a endless loop in other areas, like Tb or even arena against a lot of teams. I’m not seeing the problem. Plus the only thing they care about is their precious sith raid, if it didn’t allow for a p3 solo there would be no change.....nerf traya
Hopefully they are looking at what they said which is the interaction between zFinn and C3PO. Changing their interaction doesn’t mean nerfing zFinn or C3PO as individuals.
I’m sure they are looking at more than just Traya
A lot of people like to complain and whine about things but I have to give CG credit they give out more information than a lot of other gaming companies with huge licensing deals.
The infinite loop.mechanic is the ONLY reason zfinn works. If it is somehow "fixed" to not allow the infinite loop, I'd want a zeta refund. That infinite loop if you can outspeed your opponent is what makes zFinn a Go-To offensive team in GA/TW, it's what makes him viable in P2 of HAAT for newer players trying to get a team that can put up decent numbers. It's a single zeta that's extremely valuable for new and growing players to be able to make serious growth in multiple areas of the game. It's never been a problem until now because of the RNG element to getting expose to stick.
3p0 and his mass assist, combined with rebels (many of whom attack multiple times) being able to expose is the issue. Even that isn't much of an issue IMO. It's the fact that traya topples and doesn't stack tenacity when toppled.
As far as "future content" issues, they can always make future raid bosses immune to expose and completely negate the issue, making any resistance teams (including JTR) useless for that raid. They've already done that with other status effects like daze and stun in raids. All it takes is forethought by the devs to plan around teams.
They just need more skilled players as their beta testers. I'm half convinced that those who design the games don't spend nearly as much time as the players do, reading forums, surfing reddit, discord, gamechanger vids, and theorycrafting. If they knew the game they've made as well as the players do, they'd have caught a bunch of issues before they became an issue.
Yeah except zfinn has always caused somewhat of a endless loop in other areas, like Tb or even arena against a lot of teams. I’m not seeing the problem. Plus the only thing they care about is their precious sith raid, if it didn’t allow for a p3 solo there would be no change.....nerf traya
+1
This also just kills motivation to build teams to do hsith. Like no one wants to do dozens of restarts just to get a good run with 1 team yet the devs are nerf hammer happy against any new team that can consistently do better than the teams that are suboptimal* but the best we could do at the time. Part of the excitement with new toons is them allowing for teams better than what we had yet the devs seem hell bent on this idea that they should only be fractionally better than teams at release.
*i dont consider a team that requires restart after restart for reasons unrelated to user error or rng going completely south on youto be an optimal team. Optimal teams are ones where you'll get a good result regardless of whether rng aligns to give you ideal conditions or a mixed bag.
Yeah except zfinn has always caused somewhat of a endless loop in other areas, like Tb or even arena against a lot of teams. I’m not seeing the problem. Plus the only thing they care about is their precious sith raid, if it didn’t allow for a p3 solo there would be no change.....nerf traya
+1
This also just kills motivation to build teams to do hsith. Like no one wants to do dozens of restarts just to get a good run with 1 team yet the devs are nerf hammer happy against any new team that can consistently do better than the teams that are suboptimal* but the best we could do at the time. Part of the excitement with new toons is them allowing for teams better than what we had yet the devs seem hell bent on this idea that they should only be fractionally better than teams at release.
*i dont consider a team that requires restart after restart for reasons unrelated to user error or rng going completely south on youto be an optimal team. Optimal teams are ones where you'll get a good result regardless of whether rng aligns to give you ideal conditions or a mixed bag.
This! I'm dreading the eventual "fix" because with P3 being covered the whole raid feels less like a chore. I mean kitchen sink in P4 still sucks and I have to force myself to participate. When they "fix" Finn/3p0, if its back to chex mix in P3, I will likely quit trying P3. I think chex mix is the **** most frustrating thing. All the restarts and RNG to pray you can do 1.5-3M damage. Death storm makes P3 better for those with fully ready NS teams. But still a chore. I'm really hoping that they can find a solution (such as any of the dozen good solutions on the forums) that allows the zFinn team to still be viable and drop decent damage (without all the RNG **** of chex mix) while closing the endless loop.
I think if they could find a balance that let a well geared optimal zFinn team do 6-10M damage in P3, instead of the current 37M damage. New legendaries have historically always set a new bar for raids, from CLS in all the old raids, to JTR P2 HAAT, or BB8 drastically increasing damage. Revan drops 8M+ in P2. So I think a P3 team dropping 15-20% is right on par with other teams.
Yeah except zfinn has always caused somewhat of a endless loop in other areas, like Tb or even arena against a lot of teams. I’m not seeing the problem. Plus the only thing they care about is their precious sith raid, if it didn’t allow for a p3 solo there would be no change.....nerf traya
+1
This also just kills motivation to build teams to do hsith. Like no one wants to do dozens of restarts just to get a good run with 1 team yet the devs are nerf hammer happy against any new team that can consistently do better than the teams that are suboptimal* but the best we could do at the time. Part of the excitement with new toons is them allowing for teams better than what we had yet the devs seem hell bent on this idea that they should only be fractionally better than teams at release.
*i dont consider a team that requires restart after restart for reasons unrelated to user error or rng going completely south on youto be an optimal team. Optimal teams are ones where you'll get a good result regardless of whether rng aligns to give you ideal conditions or a mixed bag.
This! I'm dreading the eventual "fix" because with P3 being covered the whole raid feels less like a chore. I mean kitchen sink in P4 still sucks and I have to force myself to participate. When they "fix" Finn/3p0, if its back to chex mix in P3, I will likely quit trying P3. I think chex mix is the **** most frustrating thing. All the restarts and RNG to pray you can do 1.5-3M damage. Death storm makes P3 better for those with fully ready NS teams. But still a chore. I'm really hoping that they can find a solution (such as any of the dozen good solutions on the forums) that allows the zFinn team to still be viable and drop decent damage (without all the RNG **** of chex mix) while closing the endless loop.
I think if they could find a balance that let a well geared optimal zFinn team do 6-10M damage in P3, instead of the current 37M damage. New legendaries have historically always set a new bar for raids, from CLS in all the old raids, to JTR P2 HAAT, or BB8 drastically increasing damage. Revan drops 8M+ in P2. So I think a P3 team dropping 15-20% is right on par with other teams.
I agree with all you said...besides it doesn't look possible both to close the loop and still let the team drop decent damage, it's the loop that causes this after all.
Hopefully they are looking at what they said which is the interaction between zFinn and C3PO. Changing their interaction doesn’t mean nerfing zFinn or C3PO as individuals.
I’m sure they are looking at more than just Traya
A lot of people like to complain and whine about things but I have to give CG credit they give out more information than a lot of other gaming companies with huge licensing deals.
People need to chill.
They do. But just because something is better than another doesn’t mean there aren’t improvements to be made.
The loop allows a full solo. If traya gained 1% tenacity (stacking) each time she was exposed while toppled, reset when topple ends. This would allow the team to still do some damage. If they test it and a fully G12 optimal team only does 2M or less damage with that change, make it a % chance to gain tenacity.
"Whenever exposed traya had a X% chance to gain 1% tenacity (stacking)" this way they can adjust X to find the sweet spot.
Sweet spot being where a team of max potency well modded and geared toons on a zfinn/3p0 team can manage 10-20% of P3 depending on the RNG of X.
Meaning that a team well geared and modded, could topple, run for awhile until her tenacity stacked high enough to resist the exposes, then as she is coming out of topple they could use CLS to stand alone, hopefully kill the sabers and topple again (resetting her tenacity) and maybe get a 2nd topple before she wipes them. Maybe even a 3rd topple! It would eliminate the infinite loop, leave the team viable, and not break any other part of the game.
You guys don't get that zfinn and c3po can create endlessloops everywhere, or do you?
This is what people don't seem to get about this. The loop works everywhere, not just in the Sith raid, provided you can get the first Expose off. Changing Traya would just be a band-aid; all future content would have to be designed with the lolinfiniteloop team in mind.
I still think the best solution would be for C3P0 to add some other effect than Expose to rebels and ewoks, but it still seems far more likely that Finn will be changed somehow instead.
Valid point, however, the devs only said they had a problem with the Sith Raid.
If they had previously stated they were unhappy with zFinn/3P0 in other game modes, I'd be less upset.
#CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
You guys don't get that zfinn and c3po can create endlessloops everywhere, or do you?
This is what people don't seem to get about this. The loop works everywhere, not just in the Sith raid, provided you can get the first Expose off. Changing Traya would just be a band-aid; all future content would have to be designed with the lolinfiniteloop team in mind.
I still think the best solution would be for C3P0 to add some other effect than Expose to rebels and ewoks, but it still seems far more likely that Finn will be changed somehow instead.
Valid point, however, the devs only said they had a problem with the Sith Raid.
If they had previously stated they were unhappy with zFinn/3P0 in other game modes, I'd be less upset.
That's why I didn't say anything about HAAT, arena, or whatever - I said future content. Nothing is on the immediate horizon, but presumably at some point more events or raids will be introduced where these characters are usable, and it would have to have some sloppy "gotcha" mechanic in there to prevent this one specific team from working. If you're thinking long term, it makes far more sense to **** it in the bud and just change Finn or 3P0 somehow so this problem goes away forever.
Look at it from a programming perspective: if your code gets stuck in an infinite loop, do you keep running it through another whole block of code to prevent the loop from happening every time you need to use it? Or do you just fix the original code so the loop doesn't happen?
zFinn isn't what's broken, his kit works exactly as designed. C3PO is the problem, so if changes must be made, change him.
I know the typical counter is "but people invested real money into getting C3PO and Finn is a F2P character!" but that doesn't change the fact that Finn isn't broken and doesn't need changing.
If I buy a Corvette that for some reason doesn't brake correctly behind an old Ford truck, smashing the Ford's windows isn't going to actually fix the problem.
zFinn isn't what's broken, his kit works exactly as designed. C3PO is the problem, so if changes must be made, change him.
I know the typical counter is "but people invested real money into getting C3PO and Finn is a F2P character!" but that doesn't change the fact that Finn isn't broken and doesn't need changing.
If I buy a Corvette that for some reason doesn't brake correctly behind an old Ford truck, smashing the Ford's windows isn't going to actually fix the problem.
Because they don't test their content before implementing it. Or alternatively they preferred to make C3po disgustingly op by sacrificing Finn (doubt this, they're not so forward-looking, in fact they don't even test content before releasing it).
The raid has been out for nearly a year. Why is it even a problem that someone can solo one of four phases? I do not understand why this is even an issue. The only people a “fix” would affect are those guilds that have been farming and working on finally beating HSTR. If I were in a guild like that I’d be disenheartened.
But let’s step back for a second... The entire point of the raid was to have something the entire guild has to participate in. If that REALLY is the point of it why nerf characters, or “fix” the raid? Just put a damage limiter in place. Every team auto-dies when they hit a certain threshold. 4 million damage? 5? 6? That is the only true way to keep the HSTR a guild participation event.
Nerfing toons goes against the nature of the game moreso than worrying about a single phase of a silly raid imo. CG specifically create these characters with specific sets of abilities. Stand behind your work! The only thing about this game that truly ticks me off is that I pay them to be an unglorified beta tester for some imaginary intent of theirs. Give me a friggin break about a year-old event’s “intent”. Let me tell you MY intent: forward friggin progression.
And yes, I still have a sour taste in my mouth over the Daka zeta refund, and the **** of Acolyte’s double-tap. Didn’t even have the decency to tell me within your game that Acolyte’s basic no longer hits twice. Shameful.
Participation trophy? No. You want something: earn it.
Finn is not the problem, cp3o is, just like revan was before and a long line of utterly poor design choices that ended in a rather extreme power escalation. We all know the reason behinde it is the revenue it brings due to the extreme wallet warrior factor to them.
You can argue to all infinity about what would be the better choice to change but it will come down to primarily
a) not nerfing content a very small group paid alot for
b) not adjusting the raid due to alot of other teams being affected
c) adjusting a free toons z ability is very much easier to get away with
I have given up on it already. it's wow ilvl scaling all over agian, when are we getting our first game reset ?
zFinn isn't what's broken, his kit works exactly as designed. C3PO is the problem, so if changes must be made, change him.
I know the typical counter is "but people invested real money into getting C3PO and Finn is a F2P character!" but that doesn't change the fact that Finn isn't broken and doesn't need changing.
If I buy a Corvette that for some reason doesn't brake correctly behind an old Ford truck, smashing the Ford's windows isn't going to actually fix the problem.
Everything works fine outside of the Sith Raid.
Depends on your perspective I guess. Some people would think that a team that, on defense in arena, can prevent you from ever getting a turn if RNG so decrees, is not working fine.
zFinn isn't what's broken, his kit works exactly as designed. C3PO is the problem, so if changes must be made, change him.
I know the typical counter is "but people invested real money into getting C3PO and Finn is a F2P character!" but that doesn't change the fact that Finn isn't broken and doesn't need changing.
If I buy a Corvette that for some reason doesn't brake correctly behind an old Ford truck, smashing the Ford's windows isn't going to actually fix the problem.
Everything works fine outside of the Sith Raid.
Depends on your perspective I guess. Some people would think that a team that, on defense in arena, can prevent you from ever getting a turn if RNG so decrees, is not working fine.
Are you seeing a bunch of them in arena? We had two and they both quickly switched to CLS because they were getting destroyed on D.
zFinn isn't what's broken, his kit works exactly as designed. C3PO is the problem, so if changes must be made, change him.
I know the typical counter is "but people invested real money into getting C3PO and Finn is a F2P character!" but that doesn't change the fact that Finn isn't broken and doesn't need changing.
If I buy a Corvette that for some reason doesn't brake correctly behind an old Ford truck, smashing the Ford's windows isn't going to actually fix the problem.
Everything works fine outside of the Sith Raid.
Depends on your perspective I guess. Some people would think that a team that, on defense in arena, can prevent you from ever getting a turn if RNG so decrees, is not working fine.
Are you seeing a bunch of them in arena? We had two and they both quickly switched to CLS because they were getting destroyed on D.
There are four in my top 50 right now. They are frequently in my way when I am climbing.
As was said before many times, there is no infinite loop problem. No matter how your potency high and opponent tenacity low, there is always 5% chance to resist debuff. So, soon or later, that 5% chance will works few times at row and Traya will get TM. Its not infinite loop, its just very long loop. So, there is no "broken" code that leads to exploit, its only blind CG desire to keep SRaid annoying as long as they can, despite fact that everyone hate such approach. Outside HSraid, yes, ZFinn can beat Traya, but also CLS-c3PO can do the same, and they even can beat Revan, which Fzinn-c3po combo cannot do. Its not OP meta team anyway, I still don't understand why they want to nerf it, instead of releasing few new toons, that can solo entire HSTR. Traya not meta anymore, in my shard Traya teams pushed out from top 20 long ago, why to keep things hard?
zFinn isn't what's broken, his kit works exactly as designed. C3PO is the problem, so if changes must be made, change him.
I know the typical counter is "but people invested real money into getting C3PO and Finn is a F2P character!" but that doesn't change the fact that Finn isn't broken and doesn't need changing.
If I buy a Corvette that for some reason doesn't brake correctly behind an old Ford truck, smashing the Ford's windows isn't going to actually fix the problem.
Everything works fine outside of the Sith Raid.
Depends on your perspective I guess. Some people would think that a team that, on defense in arena, can prevent you from ever getting a turn if RNG so decrees, is not working fine.
Are you seeing a bunch of them in arena? We had two and they both quickly switched to CLS because they were getting destroyed on D.
There are four in my top 50 right now. They are frequently in my way when I am climbing.
I don't think four teams in a top 50 needs fixing.
Replies
Resistance team members get turn better when a resistance ally damages an enemy with expose. To counter how this weakens Zfinn slightly, add something to it(More offense, tenancity or Crit chance avoidance for example)
Boom fixes the main problem, does make traya tougher for other teams or weaken Zfinn lead pre-3po.
LOL because he is my only G12 and zeta'd character and I don't like being screwed over.
Traya is clearly either broken, or over protected. There is no reason to continue to ruin characters simply because they are successful against one piece of content.
They don’t have another challenging content on the horizon. P3 is still the crux of defeating the raid.
I think it’s great that we can finally 3/4 auto solo the haat, then targeting zfinn takes that away
At least they put an update for it and road ahead that’s small progress. And said they are looking at other options for p3 Sith.
With the return of revan coming up this shouldn’t be an issue. And it feels like it’s going to be another Vader situation. Change a team up so a new more powerful toon is released that will do the same thing.
This is what people don't seem to get about this. The loop works everywhere, not just in the Sith raid, provided you can get the first Expose off. Changing Traya would just be a band-aid; all future content would have to be designed with the lolinfiniteloop team in mind.
I still think the best solution would be for C3P0 to add some other effect than Expose to rebels and ewoks, but it still seems far more likely that Finn will be changed somehow instead.
They should’ve tested for it though. It’s not a stretch to have tested a leaderless faction legendary toon with their faction leaders in newer content.
I’m sure they are looking at more than just Traya
A lot of people like to complain and whine about things but I have to give CG credit they give out more information than a lot of other gaming companies with huge licensing deals.
People need to chill.
3p0 and his mass assist, combined with rebels (many of whom attack multiple times) being able to expose is the issue. Even that isn't much of an issue IMO. It's the fact that traya topples and doesn't stack tenacity when toppled.
As far as "future content" issues, they can always make future raid bosses immune to expose and completely negate the issue, making any resistance teams (including JTR) useless for that raid. They've already done that with other status effects like daze and stun in raids. All it takes is forethought by the devs to plan around teams.
They just need more skilled players as their beta testers. I'm half convinced that those who design the games don't spend nearly as much time as the players do, reading forums, surfing reddit, discord, gamechanger vids, and theorycrafting. If they knew the game they've made as well as the players do, they'd have caught a bunch of issues before they became an issue.
+1
This also just kills motivation to build teams to do hsith. Like no one wants to do dozens of restarts just to get a good run with 1 team yet the devs are nerf hammer happy against any new team that can consistently do better than the teams that are suboptimal* but the best we could do at the time. Part of the excitement with new toons is them allowing for teams better than what we had yet the devs seem hell bent on this idea that they should only be fractionally better than teams at release.
*i dont consider a team that requires restart after restart for reasons unrelated to user error or rng going completely south on youto be an optimal team. Optimal teams are ones where you'll get a good result regardless of whether rng aligns to give you ideal conditions or a mixed bag.
This! I'm dreading the eventual "fix" because with P3 being covered the whole raid feels less like a chore. I mean kitchen sink in P4 still sucks and I have to force myself to participate. When they "fix" Finn/3p0, if its back to chex mix in P3, I will likely quit trying P3. I think chex mix is the **** most frustrating thing. All the restarts and RNG to pray you can do 1.5-3M damage. Death storm makes P3 better for those with fully ready NS teams. But still a chore. I'm really hoping that they can find a solution (such as any of the dozen good solutions on the forums) that allows the zFinn team to still be viable and drop decent damage (without all the RNG **** of chex mix) while closing the endless loop.
I think if they could find a balance that let a well geared optimal zFinn team do 6-10M damage in P3, instead of the current 37M damage. New legendaries have historically always set a new bar for raids, from CLS in all the old raids, to JTR P2 HAAT, or BB8 drastically increasing damage. Revan drops 8M+ in P2. So I think a P3 team dropping 15-20% is right on par with other teams.
I agree with all you said...besides it doesn't look possible both to close the loop and still let the team drop decent damage, it's the loop that causes this after all.
They do. But just because something is better than another doesn’t mean there aren’t improvements to be made.
"Whenever exposed traya had a X% chance to gain 1% tenacity (stacking)" this way they can adjust X to find the sweet spot.
Sweet spot being where a team of max potency well modded and geared toons on a zfinn/3p0 team can manage 10-20% of P3 depending on the RNG of X.
Meaning that a team well geared and modded, could topple, run for awhile until her tenacity stacked high enough to resist the exposes, then as she is coming out of topple they could use CLS to stand alone, hopefully kill the sabers and topple again (resetting her tenacity) and maybe get a 2nd topple before she wipes them. Maybe even a 3rd topple! It would eliminate the infinite loop, leave the team viable, and not break any other part of the game.
Valid point, however, the devs only said they had a problem with the Sith Raid.
If they had previously stated they were unhappy with zFinn/3P0 in other game modes, I'd be less upset.
That's why I didn't say anything about HAAT, arena, or whatever - I said future content. Nothing is on the immediate horizon, but presumably at some point more events or raids will be introduced where these characters are usable, and it would have to have some sloppy "gotcha" mechanic in there to prevent this one specific team from working. If you're thinking long term, it makes far more sense to **** it in the bud and just change Finn or 3P0 somehow so this problem goes away forever.
Look at it from a programming perspective: if your code gets stuck in an infinite loop, do you keep running it through another whole block of code to prevent the loop from happening every time you need to use it? Or do you just fix the original code so the loop doesn't happen?
I know the typical counter is "but people invested real money into getting C3PO and Finn is a F2P character!" but that doesn't change the fact that Finn isn't broken and doesn't need changing.
If I buy a Corvette that for some reason doesn't brake correctly behind an old Ford truck, smashing the Ford's windows isn't going to actually fix the problem.
Everything works fine outside of the Sith Raid.
But let’s step back for a second... The entire point of the raid was to have something the entire guild has to participate in. If that REALLY is the point of it why nerf characters, or “fix” the raid? Just put a damage limiter in place. Every team auto-dies when they hit a certain threshold. 4 million damage? 5? 6? That is the only true way to keep the HSTR a guild participation event.
Nerfing toons goes against the nature of the game moreso than worrying about a single phase of a silly raid imo. CG specifically create these characters with specific sets of abilities. Stand behind your work! The only thing about this game that truly ticks me off is that I pay them to be an unglorified beta tester for some imaginary intent of theirs. Give me a friggin break about a year-old event’s “intent”. Let me tell you MY intent: forward friggin progression.
And yes, I still have a sour taste in my mouth over the Daka zeta refund, and the **** of Acolyte’s double-tap. Didn’t even have the decency to tell me within your game that Acolyte’s basic no longer hits twice. Shameful.
You can argue to all infinity about what would be the better choice to change but it will come down to primarily
a) not nerfing content a very small group paid alot for
b) not adjusting the raid due to alot of other teams being affected
c) adjusting a free toons z ability is very much easier to get away with
I have given up on it already. it's wow ilvl scaling all over agian, when are we getting our first game reset ?
Depends on your perspective I guess. Some people would think that a team that, on defense in arena, can prevent you from ever getting a turn if RNG so decrees, is not working fine.
Are you seeing a bunch of them in arena? We had two and they both quickly switched to CLS because they were getting destroyed on D.
There are four in my top 50 right now. They are frequently in my way when I am climbing.
I don't think four teams in a top 50 needs fixing.