Changing HK's leader ability means we'll get better droids in the future. I'm astoundingly okay with this.
It reminds me of an old CCG I used to play, Doomtown. Each set introduced a new mechanic alongside a new faction that was based around that mechanic and a couple cards for existing factions based on that mechanic. The third set introduced a faction with very subtle mechanics that ruled the meta right out of the gate and stayed strong for several sets, but its players very quickly got upset with the developers (Alderac, now AEG) because that faction almost never got any useable new characters. So even 10 sets into that game's life cycle, they were still using those launch characters--and it got worse when the game's internal banning function started taking a toll (Basically, the game had a meta story, and as characters died in the story you could no longer use them for official play) because they never had any good characters to replace the originals.
Towards the end of the game's lifecycle the developers stated that one of their biggest regrets was making that faction's abilities so strong off the jump that they had to hamstring everything they gave them down the line.
Every droid has to be designed with the idea of "What happens if they crit more than once?" That eliminates a whole swath of design options. It holds back the entire faction.
Honestly? Same thing with Finn. Why do you think the second wave of Resistance characters didn't have reliable exposes anywhere in their kits? Only BB-8 got one that would interact with Finn's leader ability and it had to have a cooldown mechanic so weird that people initially wrote it off before discovering that it was "only" about 4 or 5 turns.
Power creep is strange because not only does it mean that new characters are always more powerful than older characters, but it means that original characters become liabilities that need to be updated or else they risk breaking things further. Think about if Black Lotus were still in Magic: the Gathering--every card would have to have +1 casting cost because it would basically be taken for granted that any card could be brought into play on turn 1.
While it's a very simple kit, it's very hard to disagree that +30% cc and +50% tm on a crit seriously limits the development of new droid characters.
TM is probably the most powerful mechanic is this game and a rework is understandable.
At the same time, I understand the frustration of the players who have invested in droids based on HK's leadership. Though droids usually work on other teams as well, refunding 3 omegas feels like getting a 15 usd voucher to eat at McDonalds when your flight gets cancelled and you miss the superbowl.
HK lead is ridiculous and is one step away from an infinite loop unless you have GK on your team.
...or you use Rex lead...or Zarris...or Shoretrooper with his crit immunity buff...or you use one of several leads with crit avoidance...or you start using the crit avoidance mods...or you use teams like CLS/Rebels that counter attack to kill any toon that AoEs too many times...or you AoE daze the droids like you can with Maul, Nest, Wampa, or Holdo. But besides that you're helpless. It's a shame there isn't anything to counter HK lead, and it's a shame that nothing could be added to counter such a team.
You know what, I'm completely wrong.
You are correct w.r.t. his lead. There's way too many counters to it and i feel so stupid not realizing all of that
I’d think u’re not completely wrong, in the sense that right now all their future raids and droids have to account for hk’s lead which can lead to infinite loop scenarios. So if they create a droid that has multiple hits on one target (e.g. something like fracture) it can lead to looping tm gains on a toppled raid boss.
Elsewhere though, it’s pretty much easy to counter.
HK lead is ridiculous and is one step away from an infinite loop unless you have GK on your team.
...or you use Rex lead...or Zarris...or Shoretrooper with his crit immunity buff...or you use one of several leads with crit avoidance...or you start using the crit avoidance mods...or you use teams like CLS/Rebels that counter attack to kill any toon that AoEs too many times...or you AoE daze the droids like you can with Maul, Nest, Wampa, or Holdo. But besides that you're helpless. It's a shame there isn't anything to counter HK lead, and it's a shame that nothing could be added to counter such a team.
You know what, I'm completely wrong.
You are correct w.r.t. his lead. There's way too many counters to it and i feel so stupid not realizing all of that
I’d think u’re not completely wrong, in the sense that right now all their future raids and droids have to account for hk’s lead which can lead to infinite loop scenarios. So if they create a droid that has multiple hits on one target (e.g. something like fracture) it can lead to looping tm gains on a toppled raid boss.
Elsewhere though, it’s pretty much easy to counter.
Definitely, zFinn is the reason why future resistance toons had expose synergy without inflicing expose (Rey lead was the only way for Holdo or Rose to inflict expose). They do look at current toons to see how to balance future ones. I think JKR is also the reason Juhani is a very very slow tank. I still think the leader needs to go because of outside the squad arena. I was thinking that using HK lead with a droid that double taps would mean its an instant raid solo on toppled bosses and that could be a reason why no droid attacks twice. I think the lead would be fine if it was 50% TM gain once per turn on a critical hit. As far as HK goes, he's not a leader so I have no issues with him losing a leader ability
I see people saying HK leadership can could potentially cause infinite loops. How does one loop when all but GG have no way to get past the cool down on the AoE ability...? Even GG's ability is pretty trash as your team has to die in order for it to trigger his unique. I feel this is lazy design as they just do not want to be bothered with another zFinn/C3P0 situation. Even though it is really easy to built around.
If they are hell bent on feeling HK lead is broken, just add to his leadership that droid ally's AoE abilities cannot have cool down reduction. No zero cool down AoE, and obviously do not put AoE on a droid basic... Done, simple.
There are enough droids with AoE abilties as it is and you do not see HK leaders running around as meta in Arena/TW/GA...
Nerfing his leadership will just ruin all of the other non faction droids and sepy droids IMO as GG team was just a disgrace...
First of all HK lead is not that impresive cuz there are a lot of toons who counter him from ever...but the main problem is that hes the only viable droid leader at all (ok now whe have GG who needs 2 markee toons to even be playable) so there are 2 kind of people who developed droids:
1-people who love droids and whant to play with them so they maxed HK and +4 droids arround hk leadership...
2-people with deep rosters who maxed hk +4 droids arround hk leadership to have another attack team in tw/ga against any team without skills to punish crits from the enemy or counterattacks (like teams without GK, zarris, cls leads, revan, etc.)
So here is the problem: all those ppl maxed HK and another whatever 4 droids who are kinda useless in everyother aspect of the game... And all they will get is HK leader lvl 1 and 3 shinny omegas :S
To max an squad from a ftp perspective needs 2 months of gear hoardind (at least to me who finish 1 fleet and 50+ from 20+ in arena everyday, cant imagine others who cant achieve this...).
So changing a leader skill like the HK one and refunding just this 3 omegas is really insulting for all the playerbase who is affected by it :S
I have HK G8 all skills maxed just for fun and no other high developed droid... I have never played with droids, i didnt ever make any team arround HK so i dont care miself but all droid users are made arround HK so refund just his leader cost but not all gear/skills from all other droids building arround him is a very big slap in the face to all ur playerbase :S
My hope here is after they change hk's leadership, they look at tweaking the rework they did on the sep droids. Make everyone happier
It seems like (as they were reworking the sep faction) they found it frustrating to make kits that wouldnt exploit hk's lead - i can understand that.
But Imo, they should have postponed grievous rework to after hk rework. That would have made more sense.
Agreed. If HK's lead was a factor in how the new droid were designed then it would be nice to see them get reworked too.
There is droid nut in my shard that has been running HK for years. He sometimes would use JTR and all droids to deal with super fast revans. Every day he climbs up to the top. I respect that dedication...and somewhat pity that insanity...but I do root for the droid nuts to catch a break. I actually felt bad for them with the GG rework.
There is droid nut in my shard that has been running HK for years. He sometimes would use JTR and all droids to deal with super fast revans. Every day he climbs up to the top. I respect that dedication...and somewhat pity that insanity...but I do root for the droid nuts to catch a break. I actually felt bad for them with the GG rework.
There is droid nut in my shard that has been running HK for years. He sometimes would use JTR and all droids to deal with super fast revans. Every day he climbs up to the top. I respect that dedication...and somewhat pity that insanity...but I do root for the droid nuts to catch a break. I actually felt bad for them with the GG rework.
I see so many arguments for "Future Content" or "loops in raids" To try and defend CG (For some reason)
Current raids gain TM when hit, which means the loop ends. Also you need to crit at least 2 targets. Which means even aoe's will stop giving you TM.
Arena has many many counters to being crit, Zbarris, GK, ect. Any Revan team with GK cannot be beaten with HK lead based on a "loop". No matter how much you think a "loop" will happen.
Future content will likely be made harder then HSTR, which already can't be looped by HK. And it wouldn't be able to even if there was a droid that AOE'd and always critted on an AOE every turn.
HK is being nerfed, Finn is being nerfed, because CG wants Revan to be the only meta. They want to control the meta. They don't want to have to think outside the box or be creative, they want your money and that is it. Anything that might cause Revenue trouble will be targeted.
I see so many arguments for "Future Content" or "loops in raids" To try and defend CG (For some reason)
Current raids gain TM when hit, which means the loop ends. Also you need to crit at least 2 targets. Which means even aoe's will stop giving you TM.
Arena has many many counters to being crit, Zbarris, GK, ect. Any Revan team with GK cannot be beaten with HK lead based on a "loop". No matter how much you think a "loop" will happen.
Future content will likely be made harder then HSTR, which already can't be looped by HK. And it wouldn't be able to even if there was a droid that AOE'd and always critted on an AOE every turn.
HK is being nerfed, Finn is being nerfed, because CG wants Revan to be the only meta. They want to control the meta. They don't want to have to think outside the box or be creative, they want your money and that is it. Anything that might cause Revenue trouble will be targeted.
There is droid nut in my shard that has been running HK for years. He sometimes would use JTR and all droids to deal with super fast revans. Every day he climbs up to the top. I respect that dedication...and somewhat pity that insanity...but I do root for the droid nuts to catch a break. I actually felt bad for them with the GG rework.
Changing HK's leader ability means we'll get better droids in the future. I'm astoundingly okay with this.
I have come to the conclusion that you are right. Nonetheless, it is kind of frustrating that many recent droids have had anti-crit synergy put in place because of this, and we no they won't get a retouch any time soon.
Changing HK's leader ability means we'll get better droids in the future. I'm astoundingly okay with this.
I have come to the conclusion that you are right. Nonetheless, it is kind of frustrating that many recent droids have had anti-crit synergy put in place because of this, and we no they won't get a retouch any time soon.
-thats right i doubt we get a adjustment for B1 and Droideka (okay fallen Bastila get adjustments too but ITS KOTOR HYPE...) or any other droid release from the past that may secretly got weaker cause they feared HK loops
-serious not many droids are left, clearly no legend material or leader droids so bets are on outside faction support like TW fun with Jawas&Genosians that maybe are tested reworks but that are also factions without a huge fan base and CG maybe will not invest ressources here.
For bsf they probably had her kit ment for darth revan but removed the synergy to add it in later after he was mentioned and no hero journey type events for droids so very doubtful they will be meta or really good best droids atm are pretty much gg the 3 legendary droids dont have to much droid synergy other then bb8 so i see droids -gg as a c or d team and those tend to be awful at best in tw/ga especially at the almost 200 mil guild gp and 4 mil gps
-serious not many droids are left, clearly no legend material or leader droids so bets are on outside faction support like TW fun with Jawas&Genosians that maybe are tested reworks but that are also factions without a huge fan base and CG maybe will not invest ressources here.
They could always add a "D-Squad" tag to R2-D2, give him a leader ability that only applies to D-Squad, and then add the other four droids who were members.
Changing HK's leader ability means we'll get better droids in the future. I'm astoundingly okay with this.
I have come to the conclusion that you are right. Nonetheless, it is kind of frustrating that many recent droids have had anti-crit synergy put in place because of this, and we no they won't get a retouch any time soon.
-serious not many droids are left, clearly no legend material or leader droids so bets are on outside faction support like TW fun with Jawas&Genosians that maybe are tested reworks but that are also factions without a huge fan base and CG maybe will not invest ressources here.
Right now, I can think of BB-9E, Separatist commander droid, the Chopper's sidekick (whatever is his name?), that imperial protocol/assasin droid from Rebels, the droids from Doctor Aphra and Proxy from Force unleashed (unlikely but could be awesome). The most likely options are nothing really spectacular, but no dry well either. And bear in mind that a lot of new content is coming, which definitely means more droids as well.
Why would you want to keep HK’s lead when crit has been such a bad thing while GK and Rex and Barriss and so on exist?
Cause not every enemy squad has anti crit stuff and if you look at many droids its all about crits (ig86, ig88, t3 even bb8 or R2) and every dark side droid is really slow so (like Grievous lead) they need TM mechanics and TM boost (BB8, Jawa Engineer) to work (and still are never overpowered, meta or awesome raid squads or whatever). So yes while that 50% TM per crit sounds really awesome and often result in another turn with aoe and could potential result into loops with double tap, it wasnt a point which Arena or Raid suffered from droid madness under HK. Changing it maybe result into other droid design at future but clearly means that all current droids (3 squads) are left untouch which includes the fact that we have all famous droids together already even C3PO that never was for combat and (maybe cause of this) not work well in this faction (but is an engine for rebels, resistance and maybe not bad with ewoks too).
Keep in mind we talk not about a situation with: HK lead will change (and is broken like Finn: Hint its not!) AND we get Seperatist Pass after it with massiv Grievous, IG100, B2 Rework and powerfull B1 and even more powerfull Droideka etc. Its simply a very bad timing with a lot of already missed opportunities and not many left besides fringe materials or MAYBE future droid content in upcoming movies/series. Since Star Wars (while huge on droids) use the robots often only as funny sidekicks maybe will never introduce such a huge focus of droids like at clone wars era (hint already gotten a not so good rework last month feat two new marquees aka "its done").
Droids teams make no sense, as the faction is based on who owns them or there 'job' like non droids. If anything it's a minor sub-faction. Until a faction in the lore is created which has a large number of independent droids not being commanded by non-droids then I can't see how it works.
Separatists is a thing, which is most of the droids.
Then we have IG-88, a bounty hunter.
R2D2/C3PO - Rebel/Resistance/Galactic republic
BB8 - Resistance
Etc, the druid is a side-kick to the primary factions.
Having BB8 work well with say, general Grievous is a bit strange & isn't remotely thematically correct.
Droid should have a 'mechanic' maybe some kind of cool unique customization - but they make little sense as a separate faction.
Droids teams make no sense, as the faction is based on who owns them or there 'job' like non droids. If anything it's a minor sub-faction. Until a faction in the lore is created which has a large number of independent droids not being commanded by non-droids then I can't see how it works.
Separatists is a thing, which is most of the droids.
Then we have IG-88, a bounty hunter.
R2D2/C3PO - Rebel/Resistance/Galactic republic
BB8 - Resistance
Etc, the druid is a side-kick to the primary factions.
Having BB8 work well with say, general Grievous is a bit strange & isn't remotely thematically correct.
Droid should have a 'mechanic' maybe some kind of cool unique customization - but they make little sense as a separate faction.
You can think of the droid synergy as a technological thing, rather than a matter of alignment. It makes sense for droids to be designed to communicate and interact better with other droids. Think of something like R2 wirelessly sending his analysis to IG-88 to help him eliminate a target or stuff like that.
GG is still an odd fit, though. Not sure how much of such technology he employs.
Replies
It reminds me of an old CCG I used to play, Doomtown. Each set introduced a new mechanic alongside a new faction that was based around that mechanic and a couple cards for existing factions based on that mechanic. The third set introduced a faction with very subtle mechanics that ruled the meta right out of the gate and stayed strong for several sets, but its players very quickly got upset with the developers (Alderac, now AEG) because that faction almost never got any useable new characters. So even 10 sets into that game's life cycle, they were still using those launch characters--and it got worse when the game's internal banning function started taking a toll (Basically, the game had a meta story, and as characters died in the story you could no longer use them for official play) because they never had any good characters to replace the originals.
Towards the end of the game's lifecycle the developers stated that one of their biggest regrets was making that faction's abilities so strong off the jump that they had to hamstring everything they gave them down the line.
Every droid has to be designed with the idea of "What happens if they crit more than once?" That eliminates a whole swath of design options. It holds back the entire faction.
Honestly? Same thing with Finn. Why do you think the second wave of Resistance characters didn't have reliable exposes anywhere in their kits? Only BB-8 got one that would interact with Finn's leader ability and it had to have a cooldown mechanic so weird that people initially wrote it off before discovering that it was "only" about 4 or 5 turns.
Power creep is strange because not only does it mean that new characters are always more powerful than older characters, but it means that original characters become liabilities that need to be updated or else they risk breaking things further. Think about if Black Lotus were still in Magic: the Gathering--every card would have to have +1 casting cost because it would basically be taken for granted that any card could be brought into play on turn 1.
TM is probably the most powerful mechanic is this game and a rework is understandable.
At the same time, I understand the frustration of the players who have invested in droids based on HK's leadership. Though droids usually work on other teams as well, refunding 3 omegas feels like getting a 15 usd voucher to eat at McDonalds when your flight gets cancelled and you miss the superbowl.
I’d think u’re not completely wrong, in the sense that right now all their future raids and droids have to account for hk’s lead which can lead to infinite loop scenarios. So if they create a droid that has multiple hits on one target (e.g. something like fracture) it can lead to looping tm gains on a toppled raid boss.
Elsewhere though, it’s pretty much easy to counter.
If they are hell bent on feeling HK lead is broken, just add to his leadership that droid ally's AoE abilities cannot have cool down reduction. No zero cool down AoE, and obviously do not put AoE on a droid basic... Done, simple.
There are enough droids with AoE abilties as it is and you do not see HK leaders running around as meta in Arena/TW/GA...
Nerfing his leadership will just ruin all of the other non faction droids and sepy droids IMO as GG team was just a disgrace...
1-people who love droids and whant to play with them so they maxed HK and +4 droids arround hk leadership...
2-people with deep rosters who maxed hk +4 droids arround hk leadership to have another attack team in tw/ga against any team without skills to punish crits from the enemy or counterattacks (like teams without GK, zarris, cls leads, revan, etc.)
So here is the problem: all those ppl maxed HK and another whatever 4 droids who are kinda useless in everyother aspect of the game... And all they will get is HK leader lvl 1 and 3 shinny omegas :S
To max an squad from a ftp perspective needs 2 months of gear hoardind (at least to me who finish 1 fleet and 50+ from 20+ in arena everyday, cant imagine others who cant achieve this...).
So changing a leader skill like the HK one and refunding just this 3 omegas is really insulting for all the playerbase who is affected by it :S
I have HK G8 all skills maxed just for fun and no other high developed droid... I have never played with droids, i didnt ever make any team arround HK so i dont care miself but all droid users are made arround HK so refund just his leader cost but not all gear/skills from all other droids building arround him is a very big slap in the face to all ur playerbase :S
It seems like (as they were reworking the sep faction) they found it frustrating to make kits that wouldnt exploit hk's lead - i can understand that.
But Imo, they should have postponed grievous rework to after hk rework. That would have made more sense.
Yup totally agree, now I have had time to think on the issue.
Agreed. If HK's lead was a factor in how the new droid were designed then it would be nice to see them get reworked too.
There is droid nut in my shard that has been running HK for years. He sometimes would use JTR and all droids to deal with super fast revans. Every day he climbs up to the top. I respect that dedication...and somewhat pity that insanity...but I do root for the droid nuts to catch a break. I actually felt bad for them with the GG rework.
What's their in gamr name I might know them
Strike
"Reasons"
Current raids gain TM when hit, which means the loop ends. Also you need to crit at least 2 targets. Which means even aoe's will stop giving you TM.
Arena has many many counters to being crit, Zbarris, GK, ect. Any Revan team with GK cannot be beaten with HK lead based on a "loop". No matter how much you think a "loop" will happen.
Future content will likely be made harder then HSTR, which already can't be looped by HK. And it wouldn't be able to even if there was a droid that AOE'd and always critted on an AOE every turn.
HK is being nerfed, Finn is being nerfed, because CG wants Revan to be the only meta. They want to control the meta. They don't want to have to think outside the box or be creative, they want your money and that is it. Anything that might cause Revenue trouble will be targeted.
It’s spelled revanue
Then it wouldn't be speculating.... kind of defeats the purpose
It wouldn't be speculating about the what, but I'm sure the conspiracy theorists will still have varying opinions on the why.
I have come to the conclusion that you are right. Nonetheless, it is kind of frustrating that many recent droids have had anti-crit synergy put in place because of this, and we no they won't get a retouch any time soon.
-thats right i doubt we get a adjustment for B1 and Droideka (okay fallen Bastila get adjustments too but ITS KOTOR HYPE...) or any other droid release from the past that may secretly got weaker cause they feared HK loops
-serious not many droids are left, clearly no legend material or leader droids so bets are on outside faction support like TW fun with Jawas&Genosians that maybe are tested reworks but that are also factions without a huge fan base and CG maybe will not invest ressources here.
They could always add a "D-Squad" tag to R2-D2, give him a leader ability that only applies to D-Squad, and then add the other four droids who were members.
BT1 and 000.
Man they are amazing.
I still haven't got around to reading it, I just know that there are some interesting droids.
Cause not every enemy squad has anti crit stuff and if you look at many droids its all about crits (ig86, ig88, t3 even bb8 or R2) and every dark side droid is really slow so (like Grievous lead) they need TM mechanics and TM boost (BB8, Jawa Engineer) to work (and still are never overpowered, meta or awesome raid squads or whatever). So yes while that 50% TM per crit sounds really awesome and often result in another turn with aoe and could potential result into loops with double tap, it wasnt a point which Arena or Raid suffered from droid madness under HK. Changing it maybe result into other droid design at future but clearly means that all current droids (3 squads) are left untouch which includes the fact that we have all famous droids together already even C3PO that never was for combat and (maybe cause of this) not work well in this faction (but is an engine for rebels, resistance and maybe not bad with ewoks too).
Keep in mind we talk not about a situation with: HK lead will change (and is broken like Finn: Hint its not!) AND we get Seperatist Pass after it with massiv Grievous, IG100, B2 Rework and powerfull B1 and even more powerfull Droideka etc. Its simply a very bad timing with a lot of already missed opportunities and not many left besides fringe materials or MAYBE future droid content in upcoming movies/series. Since Star Wars (while huge on droids) use the robots often only as funny sidekicks maybe will never introduce such a huge focus of droids like at clone wars era (hint already gotten a not so good rework last month feat two new marquees aka "its done").
Droids teams make no sense, as the faction is based on who owns them or there 'job' like non droids. If anything it's a minor sub-faction. Until a faction in the lore is created which has a large number of independent droids not being commanded by non-droids then I can't see how it works.
Separatists is a thing, which is most of the droids.
Then we have IG-88, a bounty hunter.
R2D2/C3PO - Rebel/Resistance/Galactic republic
BB8 - Resistance
Etc, the druid is a side-kick to the primary factions.
Having BB8 work well with say, general Grievous is a bit strange & isn't remotely thematically correct.
Droid should have a 'mechanic' maybe some kind of cool unique customization - but they make little sense as a separate faction.
You can think of the droid synergy as a technological thing, rather than a matter of alignment. It makes sense for droids to be designed to communicate and interact better with other droids. Think of something like R2 wirelessly sending his analysis to IG-88 to help him eliminate a target or stuff like that.
GG is still an odd fit, though. Not sure how much of such technology he employs.