Can we separate the 3 v3 and 5 v 5 Skill point ladder

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  • NicWester
    8928 posts Member
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    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    But isnt skill about adapting to different scenarios?

    No, skill is about watching videos on youtube where someone else tells you how to beat your opponent and then you come on the forum to brag about how good you are at beating your opponent and don’t mention that you needed the walkthrough.

    Skill is also about regurgitating the opinions of those same videos because once you’ve decided to let them tell you how to play why not also let them tell you what to think?
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • Lumiya
    1503 posts Member
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    NicWester wrote: »
    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    But isnt skill about adapting to different scenarios?

    No, skill is about watching videos on youtube where someone else tells you how to beat your opponent and then you come on the forum to brag about how good you are at beating your opponent and don’t mention that you needed the walkthrough.

    Skill is also about regurgitating the opinions of those same videos because once you’ve decided to let them tell you how to play why not also let them tell you what to think?

    Really? Do you know someone who does that?
    I for one like to build my own opinion instead of letting others telling me how/what to think and I also enjoy trying to figure out how to best play the game in a way I enjoy, for example working out counters etc.
    We are all made of star-stuff
  • I_JnK_I
    464 posts Member
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    To 1.) To me there is Chromium between Aurodium and Bronzium. If you manage to drop 6 division in one season... well ****, but then you lost all reason to cry about

    "Its Rius scenario" - no it isnt? Rius scenario is about the payout in Aurodium and Bronzium, but not about those playing each other. Wouldnt even make sense them matching because in Rius scenario there are 2 different ladders, why would they impact each other?

  • Options
    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    Lumiya wrote: »
    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    I really was waiting for the "i dont care what the topic is, lets rant about datacrons"

    This ties directly into the problems people face in GAC because DCs are used in GAC. 3v3 already was a mode where the number of GL advantage often decided the winner because many counters don't work(properly). Now with DCs this is exemplified.
    I wouldn't say that was a rant but a simple statement about the effects DCs have on GAC, in this case 3v3. So right on topic since, let's check, yep it's 3v3 and the SR.

    But its in 3v3 and 5v5. So it doesnt effect having different ladders. Which is the real topic

    And in regards to categorizing and separating by different ladders, I want a different ladder for datacrons since they mess everything else up in GAC, TW, and arena.

    3v3 and 5v5 both are effected by datacrons, which is skewing all the numbers now because of their impact on win/loss rates. I'm guessing everyone is more upset about 3v3 because of datacrons adding to the frustration. I also don't see GAC as high on their list of priorities currently. seems like they have lots of other plans for the next 6 months at least.
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    Lumiya wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    But isnt skill about adapting to different scenarios?

    No, skill is about watching videos on youtube where someone else tells you how to beat your opponent and then you come on the forum to brag about how good you are at beating your opponent and don’t mention that you needed the walkthrough.

    Skill is also about regurgitating the opinions of those same videos because once you’ve decided to let them tell you how to play why not also let them tell you what to think?

    Really? Do you know someone who does that?
    I for one like to build my own opinion instead of letting others telling me how/what to think and I also enjoy trying to figure out how to best play the game in a way I enjoy, for example working out counters etc.

    Well generally the guys making videos got it from somebody else anyway!
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    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    To 1.) To me there is Chromium between Aurodium and Bronzium. If you manage to drop 6 division in one season... well ****, but then you lost all reason to cry about

    "Its Rius scenario" - no it isnt? Rius scenario is about the payout in Aurodium and Bronzium, but not about those playing each other. Wouldnt even make sense them matching because in Rius scenario there are 2 different ladders, why would they impact each other?

    Ahhhhhhhhhh yes my mistake. So change my post to either Aurodium/Chromium or Chromium/Bronzium. I apologise.

    After this, it's now getting very very confusing.............

    But I disagree. This is Rius's argument. There are 2 different payouts, because he/she believes there's that much difference between a potential players skill points in the 2 different formats. If Rius believes this, then why the heck would you keep them together if there's so much difference?!

    If they were separated they wouldn't affect each other. However, if kept together this is a player's 'true' rating difference for 3v3 and 5v5 (if kept together).

    Rius bandied the 2. I'm not sure myself there would be that much difference. But, if this is true, then in no way you should be playing the start of 3v3 season in Aurodium 2 if your 'true' 3v3 rating is Bronzium 4 (boosted to Aurodium 2 due to being good at 5v5).
  • Rius
    370 posts Member
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    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    To 1.) To me there is Chromium between Aurodium and Bronzium. If you manage to drop 6 division in one season... well ****, but then you lost all reason to cry about

    "Its Rius scenario" - no it isnt? Rius scenario is about the payout in Aurodium and Bronzium, but not about those playing each other. Wouldnt even make sense them matching because in Rius scenario there are 2 different ladders, why would they impact each other?

    Ahhhhhhhhhh yes my mistake. So change my post to either Aurodium/Chromium or Chromium/Bronzium. I apologise.

    After this, it's now getting very very confusing.............

    But I disagree. This is Rius's argument. There are 2 different payouts, because he/she believes there's that much difference between a potential players skill points in the 2 different formats. If Rius believes this, then why the heck would you keep them together if there's so much difference?!

    If they were separated they wouldn't affect each other. However, if kept together this is a player's 'true' rating difference for 3v3 and 5v5 (if kept together).

    Rius bandied the 2. I'm not sure myself there would be that much difference. But, if this is true, then in no way you should be playing the start of 3v3 season in Aurodium 2 if your 'true' 3v3 rating is Bronzium 4 (boosted to Aurodium 2 due to being good at 5v5).

    Nope my question is simple.

    Why separate the two?

    I reasoned its because you expect a significant difference as why else would you change it.

    If you do, then why?



  • Options
    Rius wrote: »

    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    To 1.) To me there is Chromium between Aurodium and Bronzium. If you manage to drop 6 division in one season... well ****, but then you lost all reason to cry about

    "Its Rius scenario" - no it isnt? Rius scenario is about the payout in Aurodium and Bronzium, but not about those playing each other. Wouldnt even make sense them matching because in Rius scenario there are 2 different ladders, why would they impact each other?

    Ahhhhhhhhhh yes my mistake. So change my post to either Aurodium/Chromium or Chromium/Bronzium. I apologise.

    After this, it's now getting very very confusing.............

    But I disagree. This is Rius's argument. There are 2 different payouts, because he/she believes there's that much difference between a potential players skill points in the 2 different formats. If Rius believes this, then why the heck would you keep them together if there's so much difference?!

    If they were separated they wouldn't affect each other. However, if kept together this is a player's 'true' rating difference for 3v3 and 5v5 (if kept together).

    Rius bandied the 2. I'm not sure myself there would be that much difference. But, if this is true, then in no way you should be playing the start of 3v3 season in Aurodium 2 if your 'true' 3v3 rating is Bronzium 4 (boosted to Aurodium 2 due to being good at 5v5).

    Nope my question is simple.

    Why separate the two?

    I reasoned its because you expect a significant difference as why else would you change it.

    If you do, then why?



    I never said that at all. However, there are clear differences.

    I think it's daft that playing one format decides your ranking for another format.

    No sport does that, and we're using a sporting system (leagues/divisions).
  • Rius
    370 posts Member
    edited July 2022
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    Rius wrote: »

    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    To 1.) To me there is Chromium between Aurodium and Bronzium. If you manage to drop 6 division in one season... well ****, but then you lost all reason to cry about

    "Its Rius scenario" - no it isnt? Rius scenario is about the payout in Aurodium and Bronzium, but not about those playing each other. Wouldnt even make sense them matching because in Rius scenario there are 2 different ladders, why would they impact each other?

    Ahhhhhhhhhh yes my mistake. So change my post to either Aurodium/Chromium or Chromium/Bronzium. I apologise.

    After this, it's now getting very very confusing.............

    But I disagree. This is Rius's argument. There are 2 different payouts, because he/she believes there's that much difference between a potential players skill points in the 2 different formats. If Rius believes this, then why the heck would you keep them together if there's so much difference?!

    If they were separated they wouldn't affect each other. However, if kept together this is a player's 'true' rating difference for 3v3 and 5v5 (if kept together).

    Rius bandied the 2. I'm not sure myself there would be that much difference. But, if this is true, then in no way you should be playing the start of 3v3 season in Aurodium 2 if your 'true' 3v3 rating is Bronzium 4 (boosted to Aurodium 2 due to being good at 5v5).

    Nope my question is simple.

    Why separate the two?

    I reasoned its because you expect a significant difference as why else would you change it.

    If you do, then why?



    I never said that at all. However, there are clear differences.

    I think it's daft that playing one format decides your ranking for another format.

    No sport does that, and we're using a sporting system (leagues/divisions).

    But what’s the function of separating them, what do we gain?

    We are using rankings for players not dependant on the format. The leagues and divisions just allocate the correct rewards. Most sports only award first place. If you are trying to assimilate this with sport however this example may fit.

    Tennis players across the world are ranked based on performance across many different tournaments which can vary slightly including court type. Same in golf and F1. Because they are ranking the player or sportsman.


  • Options
    Rius wrote: »
    Lumiya wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    But isnt skill about adapting to different scenarios?

    No, skill is about watching videos on youtube where someone else tells you how to beat your opponent and then you come on the forum to brag about how good you are at beating your opponent and don’t mention that you needed the walkthrough.

    Skill is also about regurgitating the opinions of those same videos because once you’ve decided to let them tell you how to play why not also let them tell you what to think?

    Really? Do you know someone who does that?
    I for one like to build my own opinion instead of letting others telling me how/what to think and I also enjoy trying to figure out how to best play the game in a way I enjoy, for example working out counters etc.

    Not everyone does this, plenty of people are good at theory crafting. And sounds like you enjoy doing it. But those are players who can usually adapt, you understand the kits and how to use them. So when 3v3 came around did you stop theory crafting and complain or did you try and succeed?

    Rius wrote: »

    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    To 1.) To me there is Chromium between Aurodium and Bronzium. If you manage to drop 6 division in one season... well ****, but then you lost all reason to cry about

    "Its Rius scenario" - no it isnt? Rius scenario is about the payout in Aurodium and Bronzium, but not about those playing each other. Wouldnt even make sense them matching because in Rius scenario there are 2 different ladders, why would they impact each other?

    Ahhhhhhhhhh yes my mistake. So change my post to either Aurodium/Chromium or Chromium/Bronzium. I apologise.

    After this, it's now getting very very confusing.............

    But I disagree. This is Rius's argument. There are 2 different payouts, because he/she believes there's that much difference between a potential players skill points in the 2 different formats. If Rius believes this, then why the heck would you keep them together if there's so much difference?!

    If they were separated they wouldn't affect each other. However, if kept together this is a player's 'true' rating difference for 3v3 and 5v5 (if kept together).

    Rius bandied the 2. I'm not sure myself there would be that much difference. But, if this is true, then in no way you should be playing the start of 3v3 season in Aurodium 2 if your 'true' 3v3 rating is Bronzium 4 (boosted to Aurodium 2 due to being good at 5v5).

    Nope my question is simple.

    Why separate the two?

    I reasoned its because you expect a significant difference as why else would you change it.

    If you do, then why?



    I never said that at all. However, there are clear differences.

    I think it's daft that playing one format decides your ranking for another format.

    No sport does that, and we're using a sporting system (leagues/divisions).

    But what’s the function of separating them, what do we gain?

    We are using rankings for players not dependant on the format. The leagues and divisions just allocate the correct rewards. Most sports only award first place. If you are trying to assimilate this with sport however this example may fit.

    Tennis players across the world are ranked based on performance across many different tournaments which can vary slightly including court type.

    You just don't make sense to me at all.

    No sport I know just rewards first place.

    Leagues and Divisions especially are designed to rank from best to worst. The leagues and divisions aren't just to allocate rewards, they're there for fun and motivation (moving up) to. Otherwise it'd all be hidden and you'd just get a 'congrats you got such and such reward today'. You need to also think about the spirit and reason for gaming, if it's just for rewards why bother.

    Tennis players get rewards (if we're talking about pros) for playing any match; not just first place.


    But what’s the function of separating them, what do we gain?

    Is your consideration only for the rewards? Mine is not, mine is about the spirit of the game. Without it, the game doesn't function. My motivation in suggesting they should be split is the balance of matches.

    I cannot explain my view point in any other way. I've tried rephrasing it several times and you don't get it. Or you're just being obstinate to get your point across.

    I'll try one last time.


    You play a season of 5v5 and get a ranking. This ranking is based off of your performances in 5v5. The next season you don't play 5v5 against players with a 5v5 ranking. You play 3v3 against players with a 5v5 ranking. It could be that the players around you are equally good at 5v5, or it could be that they're much better or much worse.

    For example GLs are quite a lot better in 3v3. So in 5v5 you may have good GL counters. GG droids for SEE, JKL/JKR for SLKR. A good GAS counter for Rey. In 3v3 these won't work. Where you could go in do enough damage to 1 or 2 shot, you might not be able to get through them at all in 3v3.

    So in 5v5 you might have 1 player with 1 GL and another with 3 that are quite comparable. In 3v3 they probably won't be comparable at all.

    This is just 1 of many many examples.

    So for me using 1 ranking is crazy. I can't think of 1 sport that does this, which has various different formats.
  • Options
    It's pointless for me to try in 3v3 because I climb so high in 5v5 Kyber 2 with my limited roster. Then 3v3 rolls around and now all my off meta counters don't work.
  • Starslayer
    2420 posts Member
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    No sport does that, and we're using a sporting system (leagues/divisions).

    Rhythmic gymnastics
    Figure skating
    World strongest man
    Decathlon
    Modern pentathlon
  • Options
    Could we also have a no DC vs DC league while we’re at it?
  • harvestmouse
    895 posts Member
    edited July 2022
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    Starslayer wrote: »

    No sport does that, and we're using a sporting system (leagues/divisions).

    Rhythmic gymnastics
    Figure skating
    World strongest man
    Decathlon
    Modern pentathlon

    No, they're all totally different. These are all multi-parts to one event sports. They're not a league system. They're all different parts that add up to a total single event. Your competition/competitors are the same through out the event.

    We have a format (5v5) that finishes and league/divisions are determined from that. A new season/event starts (3v3),where our rankings from a 5v5 format decides who we play.


    Edit:

    If you wanted to use those sports as an analogy. Let's take Decathlon. You had 100 athletes, they do the 100 metre event. After the 100 metres, they're put in 10 divisions.

    The top division (top 10) then do the long jump together. Then they move up and down divisions and then do the shot put. Clearly after the first 2 events, you won't have the best 10 shot putters in the top division. They're be all over the divisions, and would dominate as they have a divisional ranking not based on shot put.

    Clearly our situation isn't anywhere near as extreme as this.
    Post edited by harvestmouse on
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    I agree. If they made the choice of either playing 5v5 or 3v3 GAC every round 3v3 would be almost empty. It’s a game mode the majority of the community doesn’t like. The characters in this game are meant to be played with 5 characters not 3
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    12thParsec wrote: »
    I agree. If they made the choice of either playing 5v5 or 3v3 GAC every round 3v3 would be almost empty. It’s a game mode the majority of the community doesn’t like. The characters in this game are meant to be played with 5 characters not 3
    Where’s the source for this claim?
  • I_JnK_I
    464 posts Member
    edited July 2022
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    12thParsec wrote: »
    I agree. If they made the choice of either playing 5v5 or 3v3 GAC every round 3v3 would be almost empty. It’s a game mode the majority of the community doesn’t like. The characters in this game are meant to be played with 5 characters not 3
    Where’s the source for this claim?

    Common knowledge. They talked to like 6 friends and they talked to 2 others each. And since the number of players goes down, its almost the majority of the community

    Jokes aside, i see that the more people would take the 5v5 queue if they had the choice, but almost empty? Naah i dont see that
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    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    12thParsec wrote: »
    I agree. If they made the choice of either playing 5v5 or 3v3 GAC every round 3v3 would be almost empty. It’s a game mode the majority of the community doesn’t like. The characters in this game are meant to be played with 5 characters not 3
    Where’s the source for this claim?

    Common knowledge. They talked to like 6 friends and they talked to 2 others each. And since the number of players goes down, its almost the majority of the community

    Jokes aside, i see that the more people would take the 5v5 queue if they had the choice, but almost empty? Naah i dont see that
    This argument has played out before, indeed I got my only ever forum ban as a result of it.

    There are many forumers who can deal only in absolutes. If Player A “prefers” 5v5 to 3v3, it can only be because Player A “hates” 3v3. I mean, I prefer LSTB to DSTB, but I enjoy both game modes - a concept lost on the black and white forum brigade.
  • TVF
    36638 posts Member
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    StAugJames wrote: »
    Could we also have a no DC vs DC league while we’re at it?

    Let's have all the leagues

    1) 5v5 or 3v3
    2) DC or no DC
    3) DC or DC excluding GL DC
    4) GL or no GL
    5) 6 GL or 5 GL
    5) f2p or p2p
    6) ships or no ships

    What else have people asked for that I missed? With all the different possible combinations I'm sure we could have hundreds of different leagues by now, let's make it happen CG!
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • DarjeloSalas
    9944 posts Member
    edited July 2022
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    TVF wrote: »
    StAugJames wrote: »
    Could we also have a no DC vs DC league while we’re at it?

    Let's have all the leagues

    1) 5v5 or 3v3
    2) DC or no DC
    3) DC or DC excluding GL DC
    4) GL or no GL
    5) 6 GL or 5 GL
    5) f2p or p2p
    6) ships or no ships

    What else have people asked for that I missed? With all the different possible combinations I'm sure we could have hundreds of different leagues by now, let's make it happen CG!
    7) got lucky with mods or paid no attention to mods
  • Options
    The whole point of a skiill rating is to be able to overcome various scenarios... So no, separating the two doesn't seem like a good idea
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    Daerovius wrote: »
    The whole point of a skiill rating is to be able to overcome various scenarios...

    Where did you get that fact from? The whole point of a skill rating is to rate somebody's skill at a certain activity.
    "To overcome various scenarios" would be a 'flexibility rating' or something.

    Aside from that, 'skill rating' isn't exactly the best name for our GAC rating. There are plenty of players with more skill unable to compete with players with more roster power and less skill. 'Power rating' would be better.
  • NicWester
    8928 posts Member
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    Daerovius wrote: »
    The whole point of a skiill rating is to be able to overcome various scenarios...
    There are plenty of players with more skill unable to compete with players with more roster power and less skill.

    And they face those players because they are too skilled to face people with similar rosters or else they would simply win. Moreover, you don’t go from “They beat a bunch of active players with the same GP” to “let’s match them up against active players with double.” You play against a bunch of people that you “should” (based on power) be losing to first, but because you beat them no one bothers coming here to complain until they find someone they “should” lost against (based on power) but fail to beat because their skill can’t close the gap.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • I_JnK_I
    464 posts Member
    edited July 2022
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    NicWester wrote: »
    I_JnK_I wrote: »
    But isnt skill about adapting to different scenarios?

    No, skill is about watching videos on youtube where someone else tells you how to beat your opponent and then you come on the forum to brag about how good you are at beating your opponent and don’t mention that you needed the walkthrough.

    Skill is also about regurgitating the opinions of those same videos because once you’ve decided to let them tell you how to play why not also let them tell you what to think?

    Boy you didnt have to go so hard on them.

    But yea, its basically what imagine 3v3 haters to be. Because the guide is about 5v5 most of the time.

    You didnt get to practice the 3v3 matchups? I didnt even get to test my second GL against something other than GMK and SEE, havent even touched the teams following up outside of GAC, what do you mean "practice"?
  • I_JnK_I
    464 posts Member
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    Daerovius wrote: »
    The whole point of a skiill rating is to be able to overcome various scenarios...

    Where did you get that fact from? The whole point of a skill rating is to rate somebody's skill at a certain activity.
    "To overcome various scenarios" would be a 'flexibility rating' or something.

    Aside from that, 'skill rating' isn't exactly the best name for our GAC rating. There are plenty of players with more skill unable to compete with players with more roster power and less skill. 'Power rating' would be better.

    Wouldnt name it that either. Would need to consider the gain and loss of points based on power difference. Also, having player not playing isnt really "skill" either

    They could just make it winrate and it be fine.
  • TVF
    36638 posts Member
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    Why do people care what it's called?
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Rius
    370 posts Member
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    TVF wrote: »
    Why do people care what it's called?

    It does not matter what it is called, it’s a number which indicates nothing in particular, it’s just used in an algorithm to group people into a bracket for match making.

    Does not indicate skill
    Does not indicate win loss record
    Does not indicate GP

    It’s been shaped by all these, we were seeded by GP, have won or lost based on skill or roster which changes the value. Unless you can remove the influence of any of the other contributors you can not derive any meaningful information from it.

    It’s as useful as looking at a GP as an indicator of roster strength without considering relics, individual characters such as journey or GL’s and mods.
  • Options
    TVF wrote: »
    Why do people care what it's called?

    For those of us that understand GAC, it doesn't really matter. Certainly not worthy of getting the pitch forks out. However, it's a professional product and should be 'glossy' and................. professional.

    Also, as it is often brought up as 'skill' on the forums. It appears to be a bit misleading. I mean the 'skill' part even, I don't think I'd even call skill. It's more knowledge, execution and aptitude than skill.
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