Incorrect Character Tagging
August 11, 2017 4:04PM
edited August 2017
The top 3 toons with missing tags for me are:
* Commander Luke Skywalker (re: Jedi)
* Asajj Ventress (re: Sith)
* Old Ben (re: Rebel)
Lets look as to why these tags should be given:
Commander Luke Skywalker:
At the time of FB Luke on Tatooine, he is force sensitive, not a Jedi and certainly not a Jedi Knight. When he decides to join Ben, Luke clearly states "I want to come with you to Alderaan, there's nothing for me here now. I want to learn the ways of the force and become a jedi like my father". At that point he becomes Old Ben's padawan/jedi apprentice and begins his path as a Jedi.
Commander Luke Skywalker as he appears in the game is from Bespin - at this point he has already been instructed in the ways of the jedi by Ben and also Yoda.
So why does a character, who is essentially a padawan, not deserve the tag of a jedi? Others in this game of the same jedi rank are all tagged as Jedi in this game such as:
* Ahsoka Tano
* Bariss Offee
* Kanan Jarrus
* Ezra Bridger
So why has Commander Luke Skywalker not been shown the same courtesy?
Assaj Ventress:
The Rule of 2 in the Sith Order only applies to Sith Lords - the Master and the Apprentice. However The Apprentice Sith Lord, is known to take on a disciple of their own to train in the ways of the Sith and Darkside, so that together they can over throw the Sith Master - starting the cycle of Rule of 2 all over again.
Vader did this with Starkiller (although no longer considered cannon) but also attempted to do this with Luke in TESB. The Sith Master: Palpatine or Sidious instructed Vader to deal with Starkiller and had no knowledge of Vader attempting to recruit Luke.
Dooku or Tyranus also did so with Ventress and then again with Savage. The Master: Palpatine or Sidious was aware of Ventress and she was growing powerful enough to pose a threat to his rule, when teamed with Dooku, so Sidious ordered Dooku to eliminate her. This is why Dooku kept Savage as his new apprentice a secret from Sidious.
Ventress and Savage held the same rank and purpose with Dooku, yet Savage has been given a Sith tag in the game. Savage was also Sith under Maul's teachings - however, due to the Rule of 2, Savage only would have been awarded the title of Darth and Sith Apprentice, once he and Maul defeated the existing reigning 2 Sith Lords - Dooku & Palpatine. So he was no more Sith than Ventress.
Ventress was an aspiring Sith Lord under the teaching of the Sith Lord, Darth Tyranus aka Count Dooku. Dooku himself refers to her as his apprentice on more than one occasion throughout the Clone Wars animated series (which is considered cannon) - and does so in the very first episode when speaking to the Toydarian King:
Dooku: "Yoda's powers have been greatly exaggerated."
King Katuunko: "That remains to be seen Count."
Dooku: "Indeed But when you decide to join us, my apprentice[/i][/i] (Ventress) will contact me."
So I ask why a legitimate sith apprentice, fails to receive a Sith Tag - when a non-force sensitive Sith Trooper in the game has a sith tag?
Old Ben:
Yoda and Kenobi are Jedi Masters, who were forced into hiding at the start of the Galactic Empire. While Yoda remained on his planet of solitude and did not join the rebellion, Kenobi was quite the opposite.
Kenobi received a message of help from Leia and Bail Organa of Alderaan to help the rebellion war effort by guarding and delivering R2D2 carrying the stolen Death Star Plans to Alderaan to help the rebellion. When Kenobi decided to undertake this mission, on behalf of the Rebellion, Kenobi became a Rebel within the Galactic Civil War.
Kenobi went so far as to ensure R2 was delivered safely into the hands of the Rebellion or other star systems will suffer the same fate as Alderaan, that he sacrificed his own life to do so, as well as saving his padawan and future hope of the Jedi, Rebellion and Galaxy...Luke Skywalker.
So due to his brave sacrifice for the Rebellion and greater good of the Galaxy - certainly this old Jedi deserves a Rebel tag.
@CG_Kozispoon are you able to comment on these issues, or about the decisions made not to gift these wonderful characters with their appropriate tags?
These topics of character tags continue to pop up and cause debate amongst the player base. I am sure a simple answer from a Developer would help end these arguments and shed light on a legitimate question.
Much appreciated
Boo
* Commander Luke Skywalker (re: Jedi)
* Asajj Ventress (re: Sith)
* Old Ben (re: Rebel)
Lets look as to why these tags should be given:
Commander Luke Skywalker:
At the time of FB Luke on Tatooine, he is force sensitive, not a Jedi and certainly not a Jedi Knight. When he decides to join Ben, Luke clearly states "I want to come with you to Alderaan, there's nothing for me here now. I want to learn the ways of the force and become a jedi like my father". At that point he becomes Old Ben's padawan/jedi apprentice and begins his path as a Jedi.
Commander Luke Skywalker as he appears in the game is from Bespin - at this point he has already been instructed in the ways of the jedi by Ben and also Yoda.
So why does a character, who is essentially a padawan, not deserve the tag of a jedi? Others in this game of the same jedi rank are all tagged as Jedi in this game such as:
* Ahsoka Tano
* Bariss Offee
* Kanan Jarrus
* Ezra Bridger
So why has Commander Luke Skywalker not been shown the same courtesy?
Assaj Ventress:
The Rule of 2 in the Sith Order only applies to Sith Lords - the Master and the Apprentice. However The Apprentice Sith Lord, is known to take on a disciple of their own to train in the ways of the Sith and Darkside, so that together they can over throw the Sith Master - starting the cycle of Rule of 2 all over again.
Vader did this with Starkiller (although no longer considered cannon) but also attempted to do this with Luke in TESB. The Sith Master: Palpatine or Sidious instructed Vader to deal with Starkiller and had no knowledge of Vader attempting to recruit Luke.
Dooku or Tyranus also did so with Ventress and then again with Savage. The Master: Palpatine or Sidious was aware of Ventress and she was growing powerful enough to pose a threat to his rule, when teamed with Dooku, so Sidious ordered Dooku to eliminate her. This is why Dooku kept Savage as his new apprentice a secret from Sidious.
Ventress and Savage held the same rank and purpose with Dooku, yet Savage has been given a Sith tag in the game. Savage was also Sith under Maul's teachings - however, due to the Rule of 2, Savage only would have been awarded the title of Darth and Sith Apprentice, once he and Maul defeated the existing reigning 2 Sith Lords - Dooku & Palpatine. So he was no more Sith than Ventress.
Ventress was an aspiring Sith Lord under the teaching of the Sith Lord, Darth Tyranus aka Count Dooku. Dooku himself refers to her as his apprentice on more than one occasion throughout the Clone Wars animated series (which is considered cannon) - and does so in the very first episode when speaking to the Toydarian King:
Dooku: "Yoda's powers have been greatly exaggerated."
King Katuunko: "That remains to be seen Count."
Dooku: "Indeed But when you decide to join us, my apprentice[/i][/i] (Ventress) will contact me."
So I ask why a legitimate sith apprentice, fails to receive a Sith Tag - when a non-force sensitive Sith Trooper in the game has a sith tag?
Old Ben:
Yoda and Kenobi are Jedi Masters, who were forced into hiding at the start of the Galactic Empire. While Yoda remained on his planet of solitude and did not join the rebellion, Kenobi was quite the opposite.
Kenobi received a message of help from Leia and Bail Organa of Alderaan to help the rebellion war effort by guarding and delivering R2D2 carrying the stolen Death Star Plans to Alderaan to help the rebellion. When Kenobi decided to undertake this mission, on behalf of the Rebellion, Kenobi became a Rebel within the Galactic Civil War.
Kenobi went so far as to ensure R2 was delivered safely into the hands of the Rebellion or other star systems will suffer the same fate as Alderaan, that he sacrificed his own life to do so, as well as saving his padawan and future hope of the Jedi, Rebellion and Galaxy...Luke Skywalker.
So due to his brave sacrifice for the Rebellion and greater good of the Galaxy - certainly this old Jedi deserves a Rebel tag.
@CG_Kozispoon are you able to comment on these issues, or about the decisions made not to gift these wonderful characters with their appropriate tags?
These topics of character tags continue to pop up and cause debate amongst the player base. I am sure a simple answer from a Developer would help end these arguments and shed light on a legitimate question.
Much appreciated
Boo
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Replies
Asajj...can't help you there much. I think it has to do with the version, maybe which season of CW she's from
Excellent News!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - I did not realize that Old Ben was finally granted a Rebel Tag!!! That has made my day (I'm sad. I know).
Do you have a link to the podcast? or is @CG_TopHat able to chime in to this discussion?
As for Ventress - she is clearly separatist Ventress (hence the separatist tag on her). At this time she was a separatist in the CIS army under the leadership of Dooku and an aspiring sith lord under the apprenticeship of Dooku. Perhaps when the separatists get their re-work we may get an updating tag for Ventress, like Old Ben has got? I can only hope.
The answer TopHat gives is that he is not a Jedi yet. But like I have clearly stated in my opening post, he is not a Jedi Knight - he is however a jedi padawan/apprentice to Old Ben and then Yoda (TopHat agrees with this point).
Why is CLS any different to other Jedi Padawans or apprentices in the game already who all have Jedi tags?
The answer given to this argument by TopHat is that they (Ahsoka and Bariss) grew up in the Galactic Republic as Jedi and were official Jedi Younglings and then Jedi Padawans - this was their way of life - hence they get a Jedi tag, and this is clearly a different from Luke's situation.
The Podcast goes on to talk about Ezra's path to becoming a jedi is similar to Luke's.
TopHat answers: That Ezra in the game is season 3 Ezra and is further along in his Jedi training; and if season 1 Ezra was in the game, he would not have the jedi tag.
However, my argument would be that if season 1 Ezra were in the game, he would be the same as FB Luke - hence no jedi tag should be given.
Like I said above, Commander Luke Skywalker, as he appears in the game, is as he is seen in Cloud City - after he was put onto the path of the jedi, trained by Old Ben and most importantly trained by Yoda.
May I remind everyone that once Luke leaves Yoda to save his friends on Bespin, he never returns to Yoda for training until ROTJ. When he does return, Yoda states that no more training does he require, and that he will only be a Jedi Knight once he faces and defeats Vader.
There is no reason why Commander Luke Skywalker fails to have his Jedi tag.
@CG_TopHat can you give any further clarification on this particular issue? - Many thanks
Boo
Of course when JKLuke arrives he will be a jedi, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a "jedi" apprentice, padawan, student or whatever during his time on Bespin (as he is depicted in the game).
CLS requires a Jedi tag - plain & simple.
Why?!!!!
CG already responded. It happened by accident during the hotfix. They are in the process of restoring his rebel tag.
I'd hope for some compensation for those players utilizing a rebel team with Old Ben in arena. Without his tag does that mean his Rebel synergies are still working? - if not, like I say, pretty bad for those using him right now.
Then She becomes Dookou's apprentice.
For me she is a sith.
But, it would be weird if she got the tag, since she has no synergy with other siths.
She may not need synergy - she would be well protected under a Maul lead team and her dispel enemy buffs would be great for a sith team too.
With the upcoming separatist faction pass, we may see some changes to the separatist characters, including Ventress. If she does get a sith tag, perhaps some synergies may also be introduced.
I hope for the best, lol
From what I remember from CW2003, Ventress claimed to be a sith, Dooku laughed and said she was skilled but was no sith, then proceeded to hit her with lightning. Then started training/sending her out on missions.
I say no to sith tag on her.
Did you read the opening post and argument for the sith tag?
She was not sith in the original 2003 cartoon - she claimed to be sith to Dooku (unaware that Doku is a sith lord) and he laughed.
Once he took her on as his apprentice she became sith, although not a sith lord.
Please read my initial post above about Ventress and why she needs a sith tag.
Perhaps that is the joke? He is the general of the droid armies, but not a droid himself.
Yea I read it. I still dont think she should be a sith tho. The thing is I dont feel like he really taught her anything, he really just sent her out to do his bidding. Granted, the same could be said about anakin/vader, sidious didnt really teach anything to vader and I suspect that was because he didnt want to make vader any stronger since once the apprentice is strong enough they generally try to kill the master and take that spot. The thing with anakin is that he actually internally went bad after murdering the tuskens and murdering the jedi younglings, you could see it in his eyes with the yellow color that he was a sith at that point.
And honestly I could contradict myself with this cause palpatine didnt have the yellow eyes all the time almost like he could turn it on and off. but w.e, whos a sith and who isnt is a bit of a confusing topic.
Also to my knowledge, and correct me if i'm wrong here but since the time of darth plagueis there have only been sith lords. Before their big sith civil war there were lots and lots of sith and some sith lords but after that they reduced it to just 2 sith lords at a time and thats it. So at the time in question she would either be a sith lord or no sith at all.
To me Ventress is more like Grievous, they work directly for sith lords but werent actually trained by them therefore are not sith.
The thing is tho with ventress, she also became a bounty hunter so if you give her a sith tag give her a bounty hunter tag aswell.
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/comment/906698#Comment_906698
^there is also this
Having a 'tag' desnt neceserily mean that she is an actual sith.
It is only a tag to indicate that she works with the sith, as she did in CW series.
And, Dookou DID teach Ventress.
Luminara notices that her fighting style similar to Dookou's but unrefined.
It is important to know, that not everything is shown in the movies/series, some things happened in the background.
Again, having 'tag' is not equal 'being' something.
Now thats come to pass... well savage at least... but it still remains that assajj is just, well to hard to pin down... jedi, sith, bounty hunter, light side dark side, nightsister... shes all of these things... but it's the timeframe her character represents...
It could be said that it is when she betrays dooku (after savage oppress comes into the picture, which he has, as a sith) and at this point she definitely is no longer sith and her only real ally is the nightsisters...
Both Assaj and Savage were pawns used to cover the fact that Dooku was the Apprentice between himself and Sidious, since Sidious was deep under cover setting up his plans to be the senate. I don't think Dooku ever had any intention to usurp Sidious, but that's just me.
Aaand, Maul was right.
Sidious was just a shadow figure to cover the REAL sith emperor, who made his comeback as Palpatine.
The Emperor is hated by the siths as well...
Oh, bullpucky.
Savage doesn't have the Sith faction tag because a second character in the animated TV show had a thought about the legitimacy of some third character's membership in the same faction. Get real.
Savage has the Sith faction tag because the developers convinced themselves that every toon had to have a Side, a Role, and a Faction ... and there was no obvious faction to put him in because they'd already named the NightSisters "NightSisters" and not "Dathomirians".
It's a convention in the game. It has to do with whether or not you get benefits from certain leaders (at least primarily) and in certain TB missions and in certain events, whether or not your character is eligible to participate.
It's a game. I don't necessarily like it when EA/CG runs over the source material with a truck. Old Ben was the only character in any of the movies up until Rogue 1 that had ever deliberately invited attack in order to draw attention away from others and delay attacks against them. Yet Old Ben had no taunt and many other toons did.
Was that justified by the source material - much less what we guess about the thoughts of one recurring-but-not-central character? Of course not. Rogue1 wasn't out when this game hit, so by the source material OB should have had taunt and nobody else should have had it.
But that wasn't what happened. They decided to try to evoke his guidance after death by buffing others upon defeat of the toon. Then they decided not to give him taunt.
This is almost certainly because of what EA/CG thought served the interests of game balance at the time.
In the same way, Savage was given a Sith faction tag because of things about the game, not things about the movies (where Savage didn't appear) or the TV shows. He certainly wasn't given a faction tag because of some other character's opinions about the motives or purity of yet another character, which opinions may or may not have meshed well with reality.
This. Is. A. Game.
If you want to argue that a toon should be a certain way because it better fits the source material, go ahead. i do that sometimes. But if you want to understand EA/CG's developers enough to convince them your position is correct, you better be able to comprehend that game design is not fan fiction, and a lot of the thinking that goes into game design has nothing to do with the plot or characters of the source and everything to do with making the game functional and fun.
You can go on an extremely long rant about game mechanics all you want, when my post wasn't even about the faction tag itself. Good try though.
Excellent point - I was about to post this very thing, but decided to read on a bit further and glad I did as I saw this post.
Not everything is shown and she was clearly taught in the ways of the sith by Dooku.
Again, SIdious must have shown vader a few things for sure, - just because it was not shown does not mean it did not happen.
Secondly @PiffGuru - Grievous was not a force sensitive, so could not be given a sith tag. Dooku was training Ventress and Savage in the ways of lightsaber combat but also the darkside - which would require them to be force sensitive - hence the appropriate sith tag should be given not only to Savage (which he has) but Ventress as well.
With respect to Grievous he was only trained in lightsaber combat - which is the skil/use of a weapon only - not the darkside/sith teachings.