Can someone explain what this strategy is? Short of both guilds setting max defense and clean sweeping the board, I don't see how to do it...
You get the same point for each cleared territory, so that is a wash... So if one team goes 100% offense they get 10 points for each defender.they beat and the defender got 20 points for each team... Defender should win.
Can someone explain what this strategy is? Short of both guilds setting max defense and clean sweeping the board, I don't see how to do it...
You get the same point for each cleared territory, so that is a wash... So if one team goes 100% offense they get 10 points for each defender.they beat and the defender got 20 points for each team... Defender should win.
What am I missing?
The other team gets the same number of points because they also clear the board. If one team puts junk on defense and leaves everything for offense they can clear the good defense teams on the other side, and the other team can also clear since there's only junk defending.
If you are talking about putting no teams out for defense, then apparently (so I am told, haven't experienced it myself), the points for a cleared territory aren't actually a wash - you get fewer points if there were fewer teams placed there for you to beat.
I have to say...I kind of enjoy forcing a tie. Especially when I see all this salt spilled on the forums about it.
Here’s one of the original people that have no real SW game at all. Just run offense. Doesn’t have a good enough defense to make anything happen. What a joke!
See? SOOOOO SALTY.
We've won. We've lost. We've tied. I try not to get too wrapped up in it. It's a game, and I enjoy it.
Also... CG keeps promising we'll get to use our whole roster in these things. When we played to force a tie, it's the most fun I've had honestly - you get to use all your offensive weapons and blast away. Yeah, you're going to tie/lose, but man is it fun to go in guns blazing with everything you have.
So you go enjoy your salt rub. We'll win next time.
They can also set a global gp floor for each territory depending on TW bracket, example: minimal 60k a team for 100m+ guilds. That would end any **** with forced ties. @CG_Kozispoon get on it
This is actually a pretty great idea. I also liked @leef 's idea of a tie breaker being the team that set the highest GP on D. That would do it.
how about a player-created database-of-shame cataloguing and shaming the garbage guilds that play for ties?
Look at the above guys comment! One for the Wall of Shame! Lol
I have to disagree with what you said in this thread. What was suggested by OP is simple forum drama at it's finest. Ties are not a problem, it's players attitude and mentality that is. My guild is after 5 TW, first draw and 4x W after that. We faced guilds going ultra defensive and also those that aimed at a tie, we won all of those matches, even against guilds with more GP (currently 120m+). The idea is to park a bus on defense and hope for the best while attacking. By that I literally mean PARK A BUS/TANK/AEROPLANE on D. Set a minimal gp for a team at 70-75k or more. I guarantee you it won't be easy to go through it.
leef I know of guilds that plan on caring about TW only every other one. Meaning, they will play to tie 50% if the time. That is kind of messed up for those who are playing to win. They’re doing this due to efforts required, but such a limit will vary from guild to guild. Meaning some might do that all the time just to save the effort.
A points for defense would fix such a situation
i really, really dislike the idea of points for defence.
I know. Not sure if there would be a better solution, but I really dislike the idea that an entire TW can be ruined just because one guild doesn’t want to put in the effort to play to win.
I mean, there are bound to be legitimate strategical ties. But, hearing that there are guilds who purposefully sandbag just to save the effort, causing both guilds to get lesser rewards, it’s kind of sad for TW.
I have no idea how big the problem actually is, but i suspect there aren't that many guilds purposefully go for the tie. Currently i'm under the impression that it's the lesser of two evils to just leave it as is.
I'm more in favour of easier solutions that don't drastically change TW and how it's played. I'm not very creative, nor am i a game designer, so i can't come up with a better sollution unfortunately. Heck, even the guys who get paid for it can't seem to come up with a better sollution.
While i think it's mostly futile to post possible sollutions in threads like this, if i had to come up with a tie breaker it would be: In case of a tie, the guild who deployed most GP on def takes 1st place rewards.
It's not perfect, but it does promote strong def and allows guilds to save guard themselfes from guilds who're just in it to force a tie with minimal effort.
They can also set a global gp floor for each territory depending on TW bracket, example: minimal 60k a team for 100m+ guilds. That would end any **** with forced ties. @CG_Kozispoon get on it
You are saying I’m Drama? Dude I didn’t come on this post and literally confirm as you have seen people forcing ties. I’m in one of the top guilds in the world. We are facing guilds with equal or better GP. We have full G12-G11 squads all day. Since the idea is to beat the other guild we have enough squads to keep throwing at them in order for them to lose. They do as well. So by us setting insane defenses and them not, they had to use no strategy and still tie.
The problem is the ties don’t do justice for how much work we put into it when the top guilds can just throw down offense all day long. The mode is supposed to be strategic. In lower level guilds there are a couple of whales in each team that could have a squad that’s super tough to beat. As your guild gets closer to the top everyone has those same squads. Which means the system is jacked because no matter how you slice it, the paying customers are stuck at ties.
Best solution to ties is to scale the defence squads per territory based on number of toons the guilds have, not just participating players.
For the top guilds, even if both sides fill every slot, everyone has over 100 toons left so...
It would also held if there was better reporting. I'd like to defeated defence teams be ghosted and have a list under them if you click on them, like this.
Original team(ghosted to show it's dead)
+first attacker
+remaining team after first attack
++second attacker
++defence remaining after second attacker...
Etc.
That would help alot. Them you could see how your defence did. It would be nice to see sort of in game stats also, like gp remaining on offence
And there you are. You just can't pay for an advantage in this mode. Sorry dude!
Pay for an advantage. Oh I get it. You are one of those people that trash others for spending money in this game. You call us whales, blah blah blah. Just remember without P2P, F2P and everyone in between this game wouldn’t exist. But hey, nice jokes!
OP, some guilds are just petty. There’s no other way to explain it. We in Dark Łords won’t lay down for anyone. Not even when we faced Reloaded, who is 20 million gp higher. We set what we thought was a good defense and then they cut through us like butter. All I can say is, some people play the game the way it’s supposed to be played and some people just screw around. Just play like you’re going to win. You can’t control the outcome. Btw, our last three matches we’re not ties.
OP, some guilds are just petty. There’s no other way to explain it. We in Dark Łords won’t lay down for anyone. Not even when we faced Reloaded, who is 20 million gp higher. We set what we thought was a good defense and then they cut through us like butter. All I can say is, some people play the game the way it’s supposed to be played and some people just screw around. Just play like you’re going to win. You can’t control the outcome. Btw, our last three matches we’re not ties.
4 TWs we've had a guild 10M GP above us... not a whole lot of fun.
See above. We had to play Reloaded and then Wallet Warriors. We just beat WW, too. You can do wonders if you collectively work toward the goal.
I agree 100%. WW looks pretty tough. I mean we worked pretty hard to set good defenses I mean we didn’t have a lot of our top 2 rows of toons even for offense. All defense. But sometimes when you get high up it’s difficult because generally speaking everyone has the same top toons and ships.
OP, some guilds are just petty. There’s no other way to explain it. We in Dark Łords won’t lay down for anyone. Not even when we faced Reloaded, who is 20 million gp higher. We set what we thought was a good defense and then they cut through us like butter. All I can say is, some people play the game the way it’s supposed to be played and some people just screw around. Just play like you’re going to win. You can’t control the outcome. Btw, our last three matches we’re not ties.
4 TWs we've had a guild 10M GP above us... not a whole lot of fun.
See above. We had to play Reloaded and then Wallet Warriors. We just beat WW, too. You can do wonders if you collectively work toward the goal.
I agree 100%. WW looks pretty tough. I mean we worked pretty hard to set good defenses I mean we didn’t have a lot of our top 2 rows of toons even for offense. All defense. But sometimes when you get high up it’s difficult because generally speaking everyone has the same top toons and ships.
Generally, yes. But it comes down to how you use them and where you use them.
Generally, yes. But it comes down to how you use them and where you use them.
I think the issue is that a full defence can't stop a full offence. So if a guild tries to defend and loses then they just figure they will go full offence and spoil things for their opponents and its the same for them either way.
A strong defence is more difficult to coordinate and still won't work if the opponent goes all out on attacking.
It's kind of a prisoners dilemma type situation I think. A strong defense can win if the opponent also tries to defend, but not if they go full attack.
The idea of breaking ties based on defence GP is interesting but the downside is that decides the tiebreaker before attack phase starts. And then people would want to be able to see the defence GP and then you have people trying to switch it up at the last minute and...it gets weird.
One idea would be to allow toons to be placed on defense continuously. (except not in conquered territories). this make a weak defense less appealing bc the opponent could then use unused toons to shore up their defenses.
Generally, yes. But it comes down to how you use them and where you use them.
I think the issue is that a full defence can't stop a full offence. So if a guild tries to defend and loses then they just figure they will go full offence and spoil things for their opponents and its the same for them either way.
A strong defence is more difficult to coordinate and still won't work if the opponent goes all out on attacking.
It's kind of a prisoners dilemma type situation I think. A strong defense can win if the opponent also tries to defend, but not if they go full attack.
The idea of breaking ties based on defence GP is interesting but the downside is that decides the tiebreaker before attack phase starts. And then people would want to be able to see the defence GP and then you have people trying to switch it up at the last minute and...it gets weird.
One idea would be to allow toons to be placed on defense continuously. (except not in conquered territories). this make a weak defense less appealing bc the opponent could then use unused toons to shore up their defenses.
Interesting on paper. I wonder how well that transfers to the game. Hmmm...
OP, some guilds are just petty. There’s no other way to explain it. We in Dark Łords won’t lay down for anyone. Not even when we faced Reloaded, who is 20 million gp higher. We set what we thought was a good defense and then they cut through us like butter. All I can say is, some people play the game the way it’s supposed to be played and some people just screw around. Just play like you’re going to win. You can’t control the outcome. Btw, our last three matches we’re not ties.
4 TWs we've had a guild 10M GP above us... not a whole lot of fun.
See above. We had to play Reloaded and then Wallet Warriors. We just beat WW, too. You can do wonders if you collectively work toward the goal.
I agree 100%. WW looks pretty tough. I mean we worked pretty hard to set good defenses I mean we didn’t have a lot of our top 2 rows of toons even for offense. All defense. But sometimes when you get high up it’s difficult because generally speaking everyone has the same top toons and ships.
what do you mean by you "top 2 rows of toons"? Your 8 or 12 (depending on platform) toons with most power? If so, that's not going full defence.
Generally, yes. But it comes down to how you use them and where you use them.
I think the issue is that a full defence can't stop a full offence. So if a guild tries to defend and loses then they just figure they will go full offence and spoil things for their opponents and its the same for them either way.
A strong defence is more difficult to coordinate and still won't work if the opponent goes all out on attacking.
It's kind of a prisoners dilemma type situation I think. A strong defense can win if the opponent also tries to defend, but not if they go full attack.
The idea of breaking ties based on defence GP is interesting but the downside is that decides the tiebreaker before attack phase starts. And then people would want to be able to see the defence GP and then you have people trying to switch it up at the last minute and...it gets weird.
One idea would be to allow toons to be placed on defense continuously. (except not in conquered territories). this make a weak defense less appealing bc the opponent could then use unused toons to shore up their defenses.
Why is full defence harder to coordinate though? just set your best teams on defence and see how far you'll get with the left overs. I mean, it's not rocket sience.
Worse case scenario is the enemy guild goes full offence, still the best chance at not ending in a tie with full defence. Keep in mind that your strongest team can only take down 1 team on offence, but can potentially stop several teams on def. Also, the enemy guild might just give up because it's too much effort just for a tie.
About the downside, you can't see total defence GP, so it won't get weird. Placing toons in def continuously is making things way too complicated. That would be hard to coordinate.
We are a top guild and tried setting D for one of these vs an Asian guild with less GP. They set up all D teams and yet somehow blew through our D. We are pretty sure we got cheated and they hacked the game after we checked their rosters. Now we say screw this, it's not worth the effort. We got our awards for a tie this one and I only had to place a few weak D teams and nothing else for it so I consider that a win now.
We aren't gonna waste our time with this ridiculous award structure any more!
Hasn't affected us but I think the easiest answer is just raise the defence caps, probably scaling with GP. Personally I don't like the defence hold point ideas but that is just me.
Raising caps keeps a lot of the planning in the start up phase and it just needs to be set at a level where you have to make a real choice between attack and defence. The higher GP teams clearly have sufficient squads they can break a 25 cap limit. Could they break 50 limit, 60, 70? There is a point where a choice needs to be made and may need a bit of calibration/testing but say 50% of guild participants up to 50m GP (same as now) then extra 10% for each band so 30, 35, 40 etc. Ultimately you want to be at a point where defence is not filled as it leaves to little to attack so it is resource management.
So the other 49 members in our guild have multiple teams to take our CLS, Zarriss, and other tough teams. In fact we set it up to have several counters to each team composition.
We aren’t the only ones. Other top guilds have the same idea. Unless you put a limit to how many offensive teams a player can use, there really is no shortage of teams to use...unless both guilds go all out on defense. But since we don’t see the board until launch we have no idea. If everyone went pure defense we would be forced to use not as good offensive teams and it would be more difficult to tie. But this game is setting it up to allow for guilds to tie. That’s the problem. And it’s not like you can’t force the opposing guild not to tie. As soon as you see trash rosters you know you will tie. It’s ludacris!
And there you are. You just can't pay for an advantage in this mode. Sorry dude!
Pay for an advantage. Oh I get it. You are one of those people that trash others for spending money in this game. You call us whales, blah blah blah. Just remember without P2P, F2P and everyone in between this game wouldn’t exist. But hey, nice jokes!
Not at all, I'm a spender too. You just can't BUY a win in this mode and I've made peace with that. For the top 200ish guilds... if a guild wants to force a tie, they can and will. We've established you don't like that strategy whereas I'm fine with it. It's happened to us, and we used it on someone else. It was amazingly fun to use all my best/favorite squads on O and really go to town! It's not something we'll do every time, but I could definitely see us doing it again for fun.
Look at the leaderboard, there are plenty of teams winning against top-tier competition. You keep tying? Get better. Be less salty.
Or again, go all in on offense yourself for once if you know you're going to tie. I know you don't like that strat and that's fine, but if you're going to tie anyways... why not have some fun with it? This is a game after all.
If you view it as a decision matrix the problem is obvious.
/Me-OMe-D Opp-Otietie Opp-Dtie50/50
If either one of you goes full offence you tie winning is 50/50 if you both go full D. If a strong defence vs a strong offence was also 50/50, the things would be different, but as it is, it's not worth going through the trouble of coordinating a strong defense in order to have a chance at winning.
With 25 D squads per territory that's 4 per person. (both on offence and defence). If everyone uses their top 4 squads on offence they they will definitely clear the map as human control always wins.
lol, well, the table didn't work. Guess it doesn't actually use BB code, but you can probably see what it is anyway. Anything other than both guild focusing on defence is a tie.
Generally, yes. But it comes down to how you use them and where you use them.
I think the issue is that a full defence can't stop a full offence. So if a guild tries to defend and loses then they just figure they will go full offence and spoil things for their opponents and its the same for them either way.
A strong defence is more difficult to coordinate and still won't work if the opponent goes all out on attacking.
It's kind of a prisoners dilemma type situation I think. A strong defense can win if the opponent also tries to defend, but not if they go full attack.
The idea of breaking ties based on defence GP is interesting but the downside is that decides the tiebreaker before attack phase starts. And then people would want to be able to see the defence GP and then you have people trying to switch it up at the last minute and...it gets weird.
One idea would be to allow toons to be placed on defense continuously. (except not in conquered territories). this make a weak defense less appealing bc the opponent could then use unused toons to shore up their defenses.
Maybe it’s just me, but I want to win. It baffles me that anyone even close to us on the leader board wants to tie.
Unfortunately, the community saw what you are describing the second or third TW anyway so I am well aware that a strong offense in TW will beat a strong defense. BHG Reloaded went for the tie against TI. I’ll never understand why a top guild like reloaded thinks that going for the tie was a legitimate strategy.
Generally, yes. But it comes down to how you use them and where you use them.
I think the issue is that a full defence can't stop a full offence. So if a guild tries to defend and loses then they just figure they will go full offence and spoil things for their opponents and its the same for them either way.
A strong defence is more difficult to coordinate and still won't work if the opponent goes all out on attacking.
It's kind of a prisoners dilemma type situation I think. A strong defense can win if the opponent also tries to defend, but not if they go full attack.
The idea of breaking ties based on defence GP is interesting but the downside is that decides the tiebreaker before attack phase starts. And then people would want to be able to see the defence GP and then you have people trying to switch it up at the last minute and...it gets weird.
One idea would be to allow toons to be placed on defense continuously. (except not in conquered territories). this make a weak defense less appealing bc the opponent could then use unused toons to shore up their defenses.
Maybe it’s just me, but I want to win. It baffles me that anyone even close to us on the leader board wants to tie.
Unfortunately, the community saw what you are describing the second or third TW anyway so I am well aware that a strong offense in TW will beat a strong defense. BHG Reloaded went for the tie against TI. I’ll never understand why a top guild like reloaded thinks that going for the tie was a legitimate strategy.
Well, the only reason i can come up with is that they thought they were gonna lose, so they just choose to not make it a fight. It's easier to safe face with a draw than with a loss. Mocking them is justified, or isn't this about online bragging rights?
I’m sure that’s the reason why. But it’s kind of hard to save face when you’re making it obvious you’re putting in weak teams.
I don’t know. We knew we’d lose when we went up against Reloaded. That didn't stop us from setting as strong a defense as we could. It’s the only way to win and we want to win.
Replies
You get the same point for each cleared territory, so that is a wash... So if one team goes 100% offense they get 10 points for each defender.they beat and the defender got 20 points for each team... Defender should win.
What am I missing?
The other team gets the same number of points because they also clear the board. If one team puts junk on defense and leaves everything for offense they can clear the good defense teams on the other side, and the other team can also clear since there's only junk defending.
If you are talking about putting no teams out for defense, then apparently (so I am told, haven't experienced it myself), the points for a cleared territory aren't actually a wash - you get fewer points if there were fewer teams placed there for you to beat.
See? SOOOOO SALTY.
We've won. We've lost. We've tied. I try not to get too wrapped up in it. It's a game, and I enjoy it.
Also... CG keeps promising we'll get to use our whole roster in these things. When we played to force a tie, it's the most fun I've had honestly - you get to use all your offensive weapons and blast away. Yeah, you're going to tie/lose, but man is it fun to go in guns blazing with everything you have.
So you go enjoy your salt rub. We'll win next time.
This is actually a pretty great idea. I also liked @leef 's idea of a tie breaker being the team that set the highest GP on D. That would do it.
Guess I'm in the 95% without tie problems
You are saying I’m Drama? Dude I didn’t come on this post and literally confirm as you have seen people forcing ties. I’m in one of the top guilds in the world. We are facing guilds with equal or better GP. We have full G12-G11 squads all day. Since the idea is to beat the other guild we have enough squads to keep throwing at them in order for them to lose. They do as well. So by us setting insane defenses and them not, they had to use no strategy and still tie.
The problem is the ties don’t do justice for how much work we put into it when the top guilds can just throw down offense all day long. The mode is supposed to be strategic. In lower level guilds there are a couple of whales in each team that could have a squad that’s super tough to beat. As your guild gets closer to the top everyone has those same squads. Which means the system is jacked because no matter how you slice it, the paying customers are stuck at ties.
And there you are. You just can't pay for an advantage in this mode. Sorry dude!
For the top guilds, even if both sides fill every slot, everyone has over 100 toons left so...
It would also held if there was better reporting. I'd like to defeated defence teams be ghosted and have a list under them if you click on them, like this.
Original team(ghosted to show it's dead)
+first attacker
+remaining team after first attack
++second attacker
++defence remaining after second attacker...
Etc.
That would help alot. Them you could see how your defence did. It would be nice to see sort of in game stats also, like gp remaining on offence
On top of that, it's reasonable to assume the ones that are forcing a tie are also paying customers, especially in the GP bracket the OP is in.
Pay for an advantage. Oh I get it. You are one of those people that trash others for spending money in this game. You call us whales, blah blah blah. Just remember without P2P, F2P and everyone in between this game wouldn’t exist. But hey, nice jokes!
They are or they wouldn’t be able to keep up and visa versa. But now **** wants to be a hater because I spend money in this game lmfao
Well, it's probably because you keep mentioning it like it should get you special attention while it's totally irrelevant in this case.
See above. We had to play Reloaded and then Wallet Warriors. We just beat WW, too. You can do wonders if you collectively work toward the goal.
I agree 100%. WW looks pretty tough. I mean we worked pretty hard to set good defenses I mean we didn’t have a lot of our top 2 rows of toons even for offense. All defense. But sometimes when you get high up it’s difficult because generally speaking everyone has the same top toons and ships.
Generally, yes. But it comes down to how you use them and where you use them.
I think the issue is that a full defence can't stop a full offence. So if a guild tries to defend and loses then they just figure they will go full offence and spoil things for their opponents and its the same for them either way.
A strong defence is more difficult to coordinate and still won't work if the opponent goes all out on attacking.
It's kind of a prisoners dilemma type situation I think. A strong defense can win if the opponent also tries to defend, but not if they go full attack.
The idea of breaking ties based on defence GP is interesting but the downside is that decides the tiebreaker before attack phase starts. And then people would want to be able to see the defence GP and then you have people trying to switch it up at the last minute and...it gets weird.
One idea would be to allow toons to be placed on defense continuously. (except not in conquered territories). this make a weak defense less appealing bc the opponent could then use unused toons to shore up their defenses.
Interesting on paper. I wonder how well that transfers to the game. Hmmm...
what do you mean by you "top 2 rows of toons"? Your 8 or 12 (depending on platform) toons with most power? If so, that's not going full defence.
Why is full defence harder to coordinate though? just set your best teams on defence and see how far you'll get with the left overs. I mean, it's not rocket sience.
Worse case scenario is the enemy guild goes full offence, still the best chance at not ending in a tie with full defence. Keep in mind that your strongest team can only take down 1 team on offence, but can potentially stop several teams on def. Also, the enemy guild might just give up because it's too much effort just for a tie.
About the downside, you can't see total defence GP, so it won't get weird. Placing toons in def continuously is making things way too complicated. That would be hard to coordinate.
We aren't gonna waste our time with this ridiculous award structure any more!
Raising caps keeps a lot of the planning in the start up phase and it just needs to be set at a level where you have to make a real choice between attack and defence. The higher GP teams clearly have sufficient squads they can break a 25 cap limit. Could they break 50 limit, 60, 70? There is a point where a choice needs to be made and may need a bit of calibration/testing but say 50% of guild participants up to 50m GP (same as now) then extra 10% for each band so 30, 35, 40 etc. Ultimately you want to be at a point where defence is not filled as it leaves to little to attack so it is resource management.
We aren’t the only ones. Other top guilds have the same idea. Unless you put a limit to how many offensive teams a player can use, there really is no shortage of teams to use...unless both guilds go all out on defense. But since we don’t see the board until launch we have no idea. If everyone went pure defense we would be forced to use not as good offensive teams and it would be more difficult to tie. But this game is setting it up to allow for guilds to tie. That’s the problem. And it’s not like you can’t force the opposing guild not to tie. As soon as you see trash rosters you know you will tie. It’s ludacris!
Not at all, I'm a spender too. You just can't BUY a win in this mode and I've made peace with that. For the top 200ish guilds... if a guild wants to force a tie, they can and will. We've established you don't like that strategy whereas I'm fine with it. It's happened to us, and we used it on someone else. It was amazingly fun to use all my best/favorite squads on O and really go to town! It's not something we'll do every time, but I could definitely see us doing it again for fun.
Look at the leaderboard, there are plenty of teams winning against top-tier competition. You keep tying? Get better. Be less salty.
Or again, go all in on offense yourself for once if you know you're going to tie. I know you don't like that strat and that's fine, but if you're going to tie anyways... why not have some fun with it? This is a game after all.
/Me-OMe-D
Opp-Otietie
Opp-Dtie50/50
If either one of you goes full offence you tie winning is 50/50 if you both go full D. If a strong defence vs a strong offence was also 50/50, the things would be different, but as it is, it's not worth going through the trouble of coordinating a strong defense in order to have a chance at winning.
With 25 D squads per territory that's 4 per person. (both on offence and defence). If everyone uses their top 4 squads on offence they they will definitely clear the map as human control always wins.
Maybe it’s just me, but I want to win. It baffles me that anyone even close to us on the leader board wants to tie.
Unfortunately, the community saw what you are describing the second or third TW anyway so I am well aware that a strong offense in TW will beat a strong defense. BHG Reloaded went for the tie against TI. I’ll never understand why a top guild like reloaded thinks that going for the tie was a legitimate strategy.
Well, the only reason i can come up with is that they thought they were gonna lose, so they just choose to not make it a fight. It's easier to safe face with a draw than with a loss. Mocking them is justified, or isn't this about online bragging rights?
I don’t know. We knew we’d lose when we went up against Reloaded. That didn't stop us from setting as strong a defense as we could. It’s the only way to win and we want to win.