So I just recently experienced another negative concequense of the raid. The guild I'm in has spent the past 2-3 months with an increase Lazer focus on getting us hSTR ready. However once the new g12+ came out we saw several people leave. Every week it seemed like 1 or two of our highest GP players jumped ship. It got to the point where we couldn't fill the spots with anyone even remotely close to being hSTR ready. After taking in a large patch of players just over 1mil GP with zero hSTR teams we got the word that we would either have to merge with other guilds to form an alliance or the guild itself was going to fall apart completely.
This is the thing that just bothers me is that this raid and how the gear has been distributed across all tears has torn guilds apart. People who are capable of joining guilds running hSTR cannot afford to stick it out with the guild they are currently with if they want to stay highly ranked in their arena shards and Traya is only a small part of that. Traya is a good meta toon bit not a make or break toon at this point. However the rewards, even if you consider rewards after the g12+ release a Nerf, are pushing people way past where non hSTR players are at. The fact that the rewards in tiers 1-6 have remained where they are at as just compounded on every other negative outcome of this raid. Rewards are not good enough to prepare me or anyone else to up to hSTR while rewards for hSTR are so good that people can't afford not to move up if they are able to.
P.S. just the other day the guild my alt was in was told right at the end of the TB that the top 15 members were jumping over to another guild. Basically told good luck it's not our problem anymore.
I don't think there's a necessity to add a restriction on time. I mean I get what you're saying. Just make it so the raid can be done by a competent guild that meets the minimum requirements for that tier in a 2 day period with a little cushion. No reason to add the added disadvantage of a failed raid. I mean consider the current outrage then introduce this and have a guild happy to be trying out their first tier 5 after the "fix" and have them be 2% away from completion. BOOM!. Wait for another raid......I mean your idea has merit if you take it out of context of this raid in particular. This one has so much bad feelings behind it the first raid after the fix for each guild better be fun and a success or I'm going to break out the fire hoses because this place is going to get lit up.
I say:
1) Adjust the difficulty so it can be done in a reasonable time for the requirements stated.
2) Make sure the requirements stated form a progression to advance your way to heroic
3) Make rewards commiserate with the raid tier requirements such that by doing that tier X number of times as a guild it would be reasonable that they could progress to the next tier with the ultimate goal being heroic (determine X is the challenge)
4) Adjust heroic rewards as well such that it doens't create such a cliff and huge separation between 1-10 and the rest. Those that fall in 1-10 and get those rewards will only get stronger and remain in the 1-10 slot.
I will add this to the 2-day thing: I seem to remember the devs mentioned the goal was for guilds to take 4-5 days on average to complete the raid, and I think that's misguided. It leads to burnout and disinterest, and there's already so many other things to do in the game. Tuning the raid so guilds can complete the tier they're geared for in 2 to 3 days and then getting a day off would be much better over time. ...Especially since we're getting crap rewards anyway; they can't possibly be worried about oversaturating us with great gear and a bajillion tokens, can they?
CG, this is the same thing when the tank came out, the tier below took too long to take down and you lower the health of the tank. You guys should do the same with the Sith Raid and given that rewards are so bad at least make it easier to get them then spends days on a raid for junk.
While the total length of time it takes to complete a raid is a contributing factor to the burnout, as is the time required for each run, the rewards you get are by far the biggest reason for the burnout and frustration.
Spending 4-5 days doing a raid and going right into a new one isn't too bad when you get some nice gear at the end of it and can improve your characters for the next run. But Sith Raid? That doesn't happen. You spend all that time to get a handful of gear you don't need and doesn't even help you progress in your current raid tier, much less help for the next. Everything that contributes to the burnout is amplified considerably because of just how low quality, and how few pieces you get.
Everyone gets the thought of 'why bother?' when you get a couple hundred K in credits, a bunch of tokens and minuscule amounts of nigh-useless gear after days of effort. Cutting the rng and the frustration with P1 and P4 will help, but even if they make the raid much easier in order to fit in a 2 day time frame, unless 75m guilds are suddenly able to do heroic, people are still going to hate Sith Raid because the rewards are just that bad. Because frankly for the rewards, a 50m guild should be clearing T5 easily.
While the total length of time it takes to complete a raid is a contributing factor to the burnout, as is the time required for each run, the rewards you get are by far the biggest reason for the burnout and frustration.
Spending 4-5 days doing a raid and going right into a new one isn't too bad when you get some nice gear at the end of it and can improve your characters for the next run. But Sith Raid? That doesn't happen. You spend all that time to get a handful of gear you don't need and doesn't even help you progress in your current raid tier, much less help for the next. Everything that contributes to the burnout is amplified considerably because of just how low quality, and how few pieces you get.
Everyone gets the thought of 'why bother?' when you get a couple hundred K in credits, a bunch of tokens and minuscule amounts of nigh-useless gear after days of effort. Cutting the rng and the frustration with P1 and P4 will help, but even if they make the raid much easier in order to fit in a 2 day time frame, unless 75m guilds are suddenly able to do heroic, people are still going to hate Sith Raid because the rewards are just that bad. Because frankly for the rewards, a 50m guild should be clearing T5 easily.
I concur. My guild could do t4 in that 4-5 day time frame if we really focused but the rewards aren't worth it. Frankly we'd need a payout superior to what we get from a TB (~20 stars) for similar time duration with 200% more frustration.
As it is we do tier 2/3 to get that within 2 day completion but the rewards still aren't worth 2 days of effort. In no small part because in all the loot boxes I've gotten since the raid was released haven't helped me gear up platoon filler toons like CUP. If trash I don't even use can't be geared up from the raid rewards what exact good are they?
I'd honestly prefer they just remove the gear loot boxes from the lower tiers entirely and give us an extra 100-500 guild credits (depending on tier, not rank) which is all the gear is worth anyway if we're being generous.
I know it's been a while since we had an update for you on this issue but I wanted to follow up here to let folks know we are still working on this and it hasn't fallen to the way side. This week we had another discussion around the Sith Raid and I know this topic has come up even more frequently due to the Bonds of Weakness change, but this gave me an opportunity to reiterate the feedback that I collected from this thread. We have discussed this topic at length but there are two issues specifically that I brought to the the table again:
The effort required for rewards at lower tiers
The randomness of the raid mechanics that also can increase the amount of time needed to complete an attempt.
This has taken far more time than we expected as the team has been particularly busy recently. That said, we feel that we are close to determining the best combination of changes that address the majority of issues from the community. Unfortunately I don't have any announcements to make regarding exact changes at the moment but we should have a more detailed update sometime in the next week or 2 to share with everyone.
@CG_SBCrumb you guys really need to hurry and fix this raid. People are losing interest in this game very quickly. Also, time to release a new legendary and hero's journey. These give players something to work for. Currently, the only thing in SWGOH to work towards is HSTR and every single player hates it. Not a good business model at the moment. Time to do the following:
These three things would definitely go far in PR with the player base and of course line your pockets. Chop chop, let's go. Have you guys considered hiring a PR person? Seems PR is your number one weakness. It's fairly simple with Star Wars fans...
While the total length of time it takes to complete a raid is a contributing factor to the burnout, as is the time required for each run, the rewards you get are by far the biggest reason for the burnout and frustration.
Spending 4-5 days doing a raid and going right into a new one isn't too bad when you get some nice gear at the end of it and can improve your characters for the next run. But Sith Raid? That doesn't happen. You spend all that time to get a handful of gear you don't need and doesn't even help you progress in your current raid tier, much less help for the next. Everything that contributes to the burnout is amplified considerably because of just how low quality, and how few pieces you get.
Everyone gets the thought of 'why bother?' when you get a couple hundred K in credits, a bunch of tokens and minuscule amounts of nigh-useless gear after days of effort. Cutting the rng and the frustration with P1 and P4 will help, but even if they make the raid much easier in order to fit in a 2 day time frame, unless 75m guilds are suddenly able to do heroic, people are still going to hate Sith Raid because the rewards are just that bad. Because frankly for the rewards, a 50m guild should be clearing T5 easily.
I concur. My guild could do t4 in that 4-5 day time frame if we really focused but the rewards aren't worth it. Frankly we'd need a payout superior to what we get from a TB (~20 stars) for similar time duration with 200% more frustration.
As it is we do tier 2/3 to get that within 2 day completion but the rewards still aren't worth 2 days of effort. In no small part because in all the loot boxes I've gotten since the raid was released haven't helped me gear up platoon filler toons like CUP. If trash I don't even use can't be geared up from the raid rewards what exact good are they?
I'd honestly prefer they just remove the gear loot boxes from the lower tiers entirely and give us an extra 100-500 guild credits (depending on tier, not rank) which is all the gear is worth anyway if we're being generous.
I'd certainly take extra guild tokens over the garbage gear bits we get. I'd get more value in exchange for time invested through that, seeing as you kinda have to buy gear with it anyway, at least where I am in the game. Droid callers are nearly impossible to acquire, and furnaces for that matter.
1 Yes
2. Only for the .0000001 % of players who can whale enough of the Whale to get him at the rate of release and hard node farms EVERYONE who does not spend thousands a month won't have him for over a year (IF ALL 5 characters are brand new marquees when it happens)
3. See above... this one might not be so bad if one or two of the characters are available and not 3PO, Dash Rendar, Endor Tree monster, Death Star Technician, Engineering Red Shirt all release a week before the event..
There was a time when i wanted all of that stuff...But probably except for one the majority of the player base won't see that stuff for over a year and who knows where we will be at the way things are going right now
The sad thing is that the original fix was good enough for lower tiers while waiting for a better solution, but people complained (mostly heroic), so it got reverted. Having those rewards would have been WAY better for all T4-5 people, but almost no one bothered to do the math.
The sad thing is that the original fix was good enough for lower tiers while waiting for a better solution, but people complained (mostly heroic), so it got reverted. Having those rewards would have been WAY better for all T4-5 people, but almost no one bothered to do the math.
You’re right, it was a nice start. A step in the right direction. But players on ALL levels complained it wasn’t enough. Rather than realize that maybe a combination of the old structure and new methods would be an amicable solution, the devs rolled back the rework completely and came out with this.
Stop blaming the players that can complete heroic for the mistakes of the development team.
While the total length of time it takes to complete a raid is a contributing factor to the burnout, as is the time required for each run, the rewards you get are by far the biggest reason for the burnout and frustration.
Spending 4-5 days doing a raid and going right into a new one isn't too bad when you get some nice gear at the end of it and can improve your characters for the next run. But Sith Raid? That doesn't happen. You spend all that time to get a handful of gear you don't need and doesn't even help you progress in your current raid tier, much less help for the next. Everything that contributes to the burnout is amplified considerably because of just how low quality, and how few pieces you get.
Everyone gets the thought of 'why bother?' when you get a couple hundred K in credits, a bunch of tokens and minuscule amounts of nigh-useless gear after days of effort. Cutting the rng and the frustration with P1 and P4 will help, but even if they make the raid much easier in order to fit in a 2 day time frame, unless 75m guilds are suddenly able to do heroic, people are still going to hate Sith Raid because the rewards are just that bad. Because frankly for the rewards, a 50m guild should be clearing T5 easily.
I completely agree that burnout is very likely also mediated by perception of “meaning” - what we are working towards matters (the rewards are worth it)
On a side note I am starting to understand the whole “we will wait and see how extra JTR will affect the raid throughout” comment:
P1 & P4 seems to be the easiest phases in the raid provided you have 10-20 good JTR and 5 good NS teams
Basically the message/policy from CG is “farm these teams, or get out” (JTR, Shred, Chex mix, NS)...
Nihilus is just no fun to fight at all, he has way too many nonsense mechanics. Does he really need protection ignore AND protection himself? No he does not says this guy.
P2 I get to have fun. but so does everybody else so that's gone, P3 she's pretty much toppled all the time. P4 Nihilus rears his non-corporeal head again and nerfs fun, once he and his buddy Sion are gone that last bit is less fun.
Like what most people are saying, I Think phase 1 needs the biggest rework . If nihilus did not regain protection that would speed up raid. Or if he did not ignore protection that would prevent toons dying so fast. But the developers were right takes a whole guild to bring this raid down.
What would be interesting if you could loan out your toons to other guild members or allies to use. If your toon gets borrowed then you would get some sort of reward.
Please, please please hurry with the fixes. We are a tier 4 / occasional tier 5 guild and we are seeing significant burnout. People simply stop posting damage and sometimes quit altogether. STR lower tier rewards do not match the effort. Just triple the guild store currency you get for completion while you are trying to figure out all the changes. This is breaking our guild.
Please, please please hurry with the fixes. We are a tier 4 / occasional tier 5 guild and we are seeing significant burnout. People simply stop posting damage and sometimes quit altogether. STR lower tier rewards do not match the effort. Just triple the guild store currency you get for completion while you are trying to figure out all the changes. This is breaking our guild.
Same here. Struggling to hold onto players with reasonable GP. They are tempted away to hSTR guilds and we are stuck in an endless loop.
6 star mods might fix a lot of the damage and survivability in sith raid
That shouldn’t be the solution though. How are lower tier players going to get them?
That’s like telling a baby to stand up and go run the 4x800 in track and field.
And that doesn’t do anything as far as their rewards go either. The rewards in tier 1-6 are atrocious and the rewards for HSTR aren’t any better below rank 10.
Past the 1 week point since being told some kind of change would be coming. Instead of hearing about any kind of raid change we get word to expect 6ish new characters instead... even after everyone is telling them to calm down on overloading us with new characters. By this time next year they will be scraping the bottom of the barrel to come up with new characters because they overloaded us to make an extra couple hundred thousand a month while their playing population has shrank do to negligence on the devs part when it comes to tuning/fixing their actual ingame content.
6 star mods might fix a lot of the damage and survivability in sith raid
Have to know the drop of the slicing materials. If its a bad drop rate it will take forever just to get your arena team let alone raid teams to 6 dot mods.
1.6k comment and still nothing. I suppose thier fix is spend a ton of money to get into heroic. Pretty trashy!!
It's only been a week since @CG_SBCrumb said he'd have a follow-up post for us. However, I agree, it's been WAY too long a wait for them to DO something. I can't fathom how they're still just debating and talking about this.
Shameless bump... I still care what happens here... Though depending on the response and how long it takes will dictate how long I play the game. They are effectively sucking all the fun out of it... I'm almost on E.
Guessing the next response to the HSTR will be... Waiting for how the next round of JTR's and introduction of 6 dot mods affect the difficulty. We will monitor over the next 3 months and re-evaluate.
Our hope lays in test guilds,which I’m sure are only doing heroic ,and they fear other guilds are going to grow stronger and actually compete against them.
Replies
This is the thing that just bothers me is that this raid and how the gear has been distributed across all tears has torn guilds apart. People who are capable of joining guilds running hSTR cannot afford to stick it out with the guild they are currently with if they want to stay highly ranked in their arena shards and Traya is only a small part of that. Traya is a good meta toon bit not a make or break toon at this point. However the rewards, even if you consider rewards after the g12+ release a Nerf, are pushing people way past where non hSTR players are at. The fact that the rewards in tiers 1-6 have remained where they are at as just compounded on every other negative outcome of this raid. Rewards are not good enough to prepare me or anyone else to up to hSTR while rewards for hSTR are so good that people can't afford not to move up if they are able to.
P.S. just the other day the guild my alt was in was told right at the end of the TB that the top 15 members were jumping over to another guild. Basically told good luck it's not our problem anymore.
I say:
1) Adjust the difficulty so it can be done in a reasonable time for the requirements stated.
2) Make sure the requirements stated form a progression to advance your way to heroic
3) Make rewards commiserate with the raid tier requirements such that by doing that tier X number of times as a guild it would be reasonable that they could progress to the next tier with the ultimate goal being heroic (determine X is the challenge)
4) Adjust heroic rewards as well such that it doens't create such a cliff and huge separation between 1-10 and the rest. Those that fall in 1-10 and get those rewards will only get stronger and remain in the 1-10 slot.
Spending 4-5 days doing a raid and going right into a new one isn't too bad when you get some nice gear at the end of it and can improve your characters for the next run. But Sith Raid? That doesn't happen. You spend all that time to get a handful of gear you don't need and doesn't even help you progress in your current raid tier, much less help for the next. Everything that contributes to the burnout is amplified considerably because of just how low quality, and how few pieces you get.
Everyone gets the thought of 'why bother?' when you get a couple hundred K in credits, a bunch of tokens and minuscule amounts of nigh-useless gear after days of effort. Cutting the rng and the frustration with P1 and P4 will help, but even if they make the raid much easier in order to fit in a 2 day time frame, unless 75m guilds are suddenly able to do heroic, people are still going to hate Sith Raid because the rewards are just that bad. Because frankly for the rewards, a 50m guild should be clearing T5 easily.
I concur. My guild could do t4 in that 4-5 day time frame if we really focused but the rewards aren't worth it. Frankly we'd need a payout superior to what we get from a TB (~20 stars) for similar time duration with 200% more frustration.
As it is we do tier 2/3 to get that within 2 day completion but the rewards still aren't worth 2 days of effort. In no small part because in all the loot boxes I've gotten since the raid was released haven't helped me gear up platoon filler toons like CUP. If trash I don't even use can't be geared up from the raid rewards what exact good are they?
I'd honestly prefer they just remove the gear loot boxes from the lower tiers entirely and give us an extra 100-500 guild credits (depending on tier, not rank) which is all the gear is worth anyway if we're being generous.
@CG_SBCrumb you guys really need to hurry and fix this raid. People are losing interest in this game very quickly. Also, time to release a new legendary and hero's journey. These give players something to work for. Currently, the only thing in SWGOH to work towards is HSTR and every single player hates it. Not a good business model at the moment. Time to do the following:
1. Fix STR (time required, difficulty, rewards)
2. Release Revan legendary event
3. Release Jedi Luke's Hero Journey
These three things would definitely go far in PR with the player base and of course line your pockets. Chop chop, let's go. Have you guys considered hiring a PR person? Seems PR is your number one weakness. It's fairly simple with Star Wars fans...
I concur. My guild could do t4 in that 4-5 day time frame if we really focused but the rewards aren't worth it. Frankly we'd need a payout superior to what we get from a TB (~20 stars) for similar time duration with 200% more frustration.
As it is we do tier 2/3 to get that within 2 day completion but the rewards still aren't worth 2 days of effort. In no small part because in all the loot boxes I've gotten since the raid was released haven't helped me gear up platoon filler toons like CUP. If trash I don't even use can't be geared up from the raid rewards what exact good are they?
I'd honestly prefer they just remove the gear loot boxes from the lower tiers entirely and give us an extra 100-500 guild credits (depending on tier, not rank) which is all the gear is worth anyway if we're being generous.
2. Release Revan legendary event
3. Release Jedi Luke's Hero Journey
1 Yes
2. Only for the .0000001 % of players who can whale enough of the Whale to get him at the rate of release and hard node farms EVERYONE who does not spend thousands a month won't have him for over a year (IF ALL 5 characters are brand new marquees when it happens)
3. See above... this one might not be so bad if one or two of the characters are available and not 3PO, Dash Rendar, Endor Tree monster, Death Star Technician, Engineering Red Shirt all release a week before the event..
There was a time when i wanted all of that stuff...But probably except for one the majority of the player base won't see that stuff for over a year and who knows where we will be at the way things are going right now
But yeah FIX ONE
You’re right, it was a nice start. A step in the right direction. But players on ALL levels complained it wasn’t enough. Rather than realize that maybe a combination of the old structure and new methods would be an amicable solution, the devs rolled back the rework completely and came out with this.
Stop blaming the players that can complete heroic for the mistakes of the development team.
I completely agree that burnout is very likely also mediated by perception of “meaning” - what we are working towards matters (the rewards are worth it)
On a side note I am starting to understand the whole “we will wait and see how extra JTR will affect the raid throughout” comment:
P1 & P4 seems to be the easiest phases in the raid provided you have 10-20 good JTR and 5 good NS teams
Basically the message/policy from CG is “farm these teams, or get out” (JTR, Shred, Chex mix, NS)...
Edited for language. - EA_Cian
Yes, but it's not fun to play... It's not only a farm problem
P2 I get to have fun. but so does everybody else so that's gone, P3 she's pretty much toppled all the time. P4 Nihilus rears his non-corporeal head again and nerfs fun, once he and his buddy Sion are gone that last bit is less fun.
What would be interesting if you could loan out your toons to other guild members or allies to use. If your toon gets borrowed then you would get some sort of reward.
Same here. Struggling to hold onto players with reasonable GP. They are tempted away to hSTR guilds and we are stuck in an endless loop.
That’s like telling a baby to stand up and go run the 4x800 in track and field.
And that doesn’t do anything as far as their rewards go either. The rewards in tier 1-6 are atrocious and the rewards for HSTR aren’t any better below rank 10.
And screw up arena...
Have to know the drop of the slicing materials. If its a bad drop rate it will take forever just to get your arena team let alone raid teams to 6 dot mods.
So maybe...
If were patient more...
We will get more d**n marquee events!!!
It's only been a week since @CG_SBCrumb said he'd have a follow-up post for us. However, I agree, it's been WAY too long a wait for them to DO something. I can't fathom how they're still just debating and talking about this.