Self preservation zeta for sith raid
Floating an extra zeta, been able to get 8% on p1 heroic and was gonna start saving for the Yoda team but I'm months off of that. Is self preservation worth it for sith raid ? My r2 tends to die first hoping it will help smoking bb8 .
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Cleansing as you crit means Nihilus never gets bonus protection and your team doesn't routinely take massive damage for attacking with basics whilst having defense down.
So combat analysis is amazing at improving both offense and defense on Nihilus.
Self preservation protocol is also really nice, but not as effective as combat analysis.
I don’t think this is correct.
It is though. Nihilus never gets bonus protection from JTR teams due to A: healing immunity preventing it at the start of his turns, and B: R2's auto cleanse preventing it when your characters attack him.
While you can still take damage for attacking him with defense down on you, it isn't routine because it'll never happen 2 turns in a row.
You don't take damage for attacking him with defence down. If you attack with defence down using A BASIC, Nihilus regenerates protection. Hence why tenacity and/or cleanse are key against Nihilus.
You need to reread his abilities. He regenerates protection AND you take damage. No need to belabor the basics part, I started by saying that and shortened it, it's in the quotes.
To be fair, you take damage to protection, which is basically irrelevant since he ignores protection anyway. Only place this would be relevant is in P4 since there's also Sion and BOW present.
It's less important in this phase for sure, but I wouldn't call it irrelevant. It still protects you from his basic and the adds. If those attacks were going right into your health bar right away this phase would be even tougher than it already is.
His basic doesn't ignore protection? It does so little damage I've never really noticed, and the adds really aren't an issue either. I've never come close to dying because of either of those issues. It's always either a mistimed annihilate or the AOE.
Granted I'm doing T5. Dunno about higher tiers. And with that said it's still a great zeta, just not sure I think the protection loss matters at all in P1.
I should have specified, i meant not taking damage while using a basic with def down. I don’t think that’s true. I’m not sure if the cleanse stops nihilus from gaining protection either, but that’s irrelevant, as you said, due to the healing immu debuff being present the entire run. I’m not a 100% sure though.
Regardless of all of that, its a useless zeta for p1 JTR STR. Even if you take damage from using basic whilst debuffed with def down, its vs your protection so it doesnt matter anyway. De def down only lasts 1 turn, so even without the cleanse on crit the debuff would have expired anyway and it doesnt prevent the def down from being re-applied. Having to use a basic when you have def down doesnt happen very often, so even if not taking prot dmg is important to you (assuming you’re correct), its still a situational zeta at best. Also, if you’re taking dmg from the adds you’re doing it wrong and nihilus his basic ignores protection aswell.
Great zeta, but doesnt add anything in for a Jtr team in p1 STR.
For reference:
This has been my experience aswell. The 4m+ scores in my guild were almost exclusively done by players with 2 zeta bb8. Its a pricy zeta for just p1, but i did it just to get a bit less frustated, so totally worth it
Everyone's allowed to have their own point of view, but sometimes that point of view is wrong. Unfortunately that's you here.
R2's zeta stops him from gaining bonus protection when you attack him while you have defense down. Healing immunity does not. I've landed healing immunity on him with my droids and watched him gaining bonus protection anyway. Healing immunity ONLY stops the bonus protection at the start of his turn. ONLY not having defense down when you attack him with a basic prevents him gaining it on your turn.
There's no debate about it, R2's zeta will improve your offense against Nihilus.
Trying to say having the adds alive to hit you means you're doing it wrong is a deflection away from the point that there are still attacks that hit protection, so it isn't worthless, so R2's zeta absolutely gives your team more survivability... with adds. So let's not get elitist on strat up in here. I prefer to kill the adds with R2's AoE alone.
So, and this isn't an opinon, R2's zeta GUARANTEES improved survivability and increased offense for your team against Nihilus in P1.
For all intents and purposes it doesnt improve survivability. Both nihilus (the main dmg dealer) en Sith assassin ignore protection. So the only times you can actually take dmg to your protection are when Sith assassin isnt stealthed and attacks and when Sith Marauder attacks. Those are the only attacks that could potentially cause you to lose Health where as you wouldnt have if you had more protection due to the R2zeta. Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns. Basically for normal play it simply doesnt improve survivability. If it does, you can improve your score way more by changing the way you play than by zeta-ing R2. So Yes, technically it can improve survivability, but during normal play it just doesnt and your characters just die with protection.
As for increased offence, again under the same assumption, it does improve your score. Since its situational at best i’d reckon the difference isnt even noticable. If it adds more than 5% on average i’d be suprised. Feel free to give an estimate yourself, i for one am curious how much you think it adds since you’re recommending the zeta for p1.
Bb8’s second zeta adds way more to the team than r2’s. This is a judgement call on a fact, not an opinion. It either does or doesn’t, whether i’m capable of judging it correctly is a different matter.
If i remember and i’m able to be online during p1 i’ll test if you’re correct about preventing the negative effects of basic-ing with def down.
JtR, Ns, troopers , Phoenix, chex mix. Now gonna switch to Yoda teams after these darn ships are all 7*
As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.
R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.
"Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns." Doesn't really matter how you deal with the adds, this still applies. You can even use basics on them to prevent getting def down in the first place.
This explains your point of view. JTR lead is by far the most important zeta on that team, it's not even close. Not an opinion, that's a fact. We're talking about atleast doubling your dmg due to that 1 zeta.
When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, all Exposed enemies lose 5% Turn Meter, which can't be Evaded or Resisted; When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, if they aren't debuffed, reduce their Cooldowns by 1
It also explains why you think r2's zeta is so usefull, you're forced to do way more basics than players that do have JTR's lead zeta'd due to the CD reduction. The TMR is also key to do alot of damage and it also enables you to "controll" the adds.
In case you were just trolling, you got me
Oh I have her lead zetad, but R2's combat analysis easily increases damage as much or more than that. The tm reduction is negligible especially against Nihilus with his stacking speed, sure tm removal is hard against Nihilus in general, but it's a mechanic that is doomed to fail because of the mechanics of the phase. I don't see it giving any more than 5-10% more offense.
While the JTR lead may be the best all around lead across the board on this raid, it is also heavily diminished by the mechanics of the raid. On P1, defense down routinely prevents cooldowns from being reduced. On p2, it's Sion's debuff, same problems for the first 2/3s of p4. Only in p3 is her lead regularly reducing cooldowns, but it doesn't really shine there due to the bonds of weakness mechanic. Because it rarely reduces cooldowns in p1 (pretty much 50% of the time if you have 2 specials, and 10% of the time if you have 1), it hardly increases offense there at all. Maybe 5-10%.
So it's not an opinion that the JTR lead zeta is worth less on this raid than it is anywhere else, whereas the R2 combat analysis zeta is worth more on this phase of this raid than it is anywhere else period.
The JTR lead zeta increases the damage of this team about 10-20%, while the R2 zeta increases it about 25-33%. It is better.
Anway, even if you zeta'd "combat analysis" just for p1 STR, you've still got an awesome zeta for other purposes eventhough it doesn't help much in p1 STR. So no harm done.
Proven wrong? About what? OK, I was wrong that Nihilus's basic doesn't ignore protection.
Other than that I have been correct about everything I've said.
You were wrong on your very first post in this topic telling me I was wrong in thinking that R2's zeta prevented the damage from Nihilus.
Then you were wrong in thinking that healing immunity prevented the bonus protection from when you attacked him too.
Then you were wrong in estimating that as 5% of the time. 1 out 20 attacks on your side is a basic with defense down? I don't believe that for a second. You're the one who needs to count how often it happens.
I'm not guessing. The % offense I came up with is based on me counting how many times I hit Nihilus with a basic attack with defense down. It happens roughly 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks. I left the survivability comment out because you got all elitist about strategy. "Oh if you do it any way other than me, you're doing it wrong".
I give up. There's no point convincing someone of the truth when they don't know what they're talking about from the start, and can't even admit the numerous things they've been wrong about.
Don't even try to tell me you can judge R2's zeta's effect more accurately than I when you had no idea what it was even doing before I explained it to you. Get off your high horse and realize that you are the student in this topic and I am the teacher.
Started off saying I was wrong, so just have to try to find some way to make sure I am. Let your ego go. Embrace the truth.
R2's zeta doesn't actually increase damage, it just makes more of it count.
So it's not really like a 25-33% increase in damage so much as a lack of a 25-33% decrease in damage.
Why do JTR squads do 10X as much damage as most squads against Nihilus?
Sure she's got a killer lead, but that isn't why. The raid mechanics make mincemeat of her leader ability. Not only are your teams cooldowns not getting reduced because you're debuffed, but they're getting increased by Nihilus.
No, It's because of her healing immunity and R2's cleanse. Those are the money makers. Never having to go through bonus protection is why she's so good, and everyone else is so crappy.
So R2's combat analysis zeta is actually the most important/effective zeta on the whole team for this particular encounter since JTR's healing immunity is not tied to her leadership.
used a basic with def down 5 times total in this vid.
Probably too "elitist" for you, the selfproclaimed teacher (wich was a nice touch), but it does show how little R2's zeta comes into play, even if it does prevent the negative effects of using basics with def down. I'm still going to test that when i get the chance, i've no problem conceding if it turns out you were correct about that.
JTR's lead CD reduction is actually way better than you give it credit for, it pairs really well with bb8. The TMR is also way better than you give it credit for, especially combined with the CD reduction.
Saying R2's zeta is the most important/effective zeta on the whole team for p1 is just laughable. It's extra funny because you're so arrogant
Yeah, I am the teacher. You didn't know anything about what R2's zeta was bringing to the fight. Test whenever you want. I find it arrogant as hell that you're arguing with me about any of this without having done any testing or research yourself.
Everything I have stated about R2's zeta is what I know to be true based on testing.
And you're right. Posting someone else's video is too elitist for me. Between BB's assist and the lack of cooldown reduction in this phase of the raid. I end up attacking Nihilus with a basic with defense down on them every 3 or 4 attacks. Like I said, I always attack Nihilus. I get better damage doing so than ever focusing on the adds. I call it elitist because it is thinking whatever strategy is currently being used is the "best" strategy. The fact that those people only attacked 3 or 5 times is irrelevant to me. It says to me they probably wasted far too many actions not attacking Nihilus. See with R2 in the comp there's no reason NOT to attack Nihlus, because he neuters the majority of that effect. Sure you still take more damage when you get attacked, and it guarantees the cooldown increase from Nihilus, but those aren't the parts that are trying to be avoided.
To put it another way: If they are only attacking Nihilus with a basic while having defense down 3-5 times an attempt, they're doing it wrong. (You see what I did there?). Of course I'm joking by taking this tact, but strategy is everything. How could you possibly know you are using the best strategy when you didn't even know what all of your team composition was bringing to the table?
Leaving the adds up instead of ever targeting them does many great things for your composition: Increases the amount of tm you gain because more targets can get exposes up; Lets you not waste attacks on them thereby increasing the damage you do to Nihilus; The fact that they hit your protection means doing so doesn't significantly impact your survivability and your healing immunity means it doesn't significantly impact your damage; Gives more targets for BB8 to counterattack generating more tm by landing exposes.
People's strategy's are based around avoiding hitting Nihilus with a basic with defense down. I think that's foolish. R2 counteracts the need to do so. So someone using a subpar strategy (in my opinion) that doesn't take advantage of everything a zeta brings to the table doesn't count as a good example of what that zeta DOES bring to the table.
If you want to post videos following that strategy, then count all the times they attacked an add instead of Nihilus too.
Come on man, you are the ignorant one here. Why can't you just admit it instead of trying to insist that I am?
Because while you may be right about the zeta preventing the negative effects of using basics on nihilus with def down, i think zeta-ing R2 is a horrible way to try to improve your p1 score, even if it works exactly like you say it does.
Also because i find it entertaining to see you try to come up with an explanation to why R2's zeta is better than JTR's zeta is. You're clearly wrong, but you just keep going, haha.
There's also the possibility that you've found a team composition and strategy in which R2 really shines that is actually better than what's currently considered to be the best strategy. I like to think that you think you have, but i highly doubt you did. It would still be hilarious if you actually did though and i would copy it without hesitation.
And lastly because i'm wondering if you would admit it if it turns out that you were using a subpar strategy and after watching that vid you've doubled your score using a strategy in which R2's zeta hardly comes into play.
The bit I'm not understand is how its preventing him regaining protection. So a character with defence down crits and cleanses, but shouldn't the protection regain happen after the hit but before the cleanse?
Or is it crits from specials remove defence down so its safe to hit him with a basic?
Personally, my zeta order would be: JTR lead, R2 NC, BB8 RWTP, JTR Virtuous Protector, BB8 Self Presevation or R2 Combat Analysis, then the other one, then JTR Insight. That's if I was to zeta them now with P1 in mind, already had both R2's ages ago.
No, the order of operations is that the cd reduction happens when you press the button to perform the action, while the cleanse only happens after you hit.
The protection regen raid effect from Nihilus and the cleanse from R2 both go on the stack because when the hit is made it passes the check for a debuff, but R2's cleanse resolves first for whatever reason so when the raid effect does the secondary check associated with the actual response, the condition that makes it work is no longer true and it fizzles.
At least that's how I'm guessing it works mainly based on my understanding of effect resolution from the game magic the gathering (which has a very similar rule structure to this game and is one of the reasons I started playing it actually).