Plenty of great ideas were already posted for mace including the counter chance. Pick any of them and just do something to help the guy out. Hate the halfa$$ adjustment they made on him from totally worthless to almost useful.
Agreed, any of these ideas would be better than what we have now. Just having him as a rational choice in any lineup would make me happy.
Yeah, looking at the 80 stats I don't see any change happening with where Mace stands. Even if the damage is balance like stated in last Friday's notes with slow characters hitting harder. His Shatterpoint still only has 45% so basically he still has next to nothing for utility. It appears he will be a slow hard hitting character but with next to no real utility. Obviously my opinion may drastically change after the update happens but my hope aren't very high looking at Mace's track record. Either way I will keep him maxed out and hope for the best.
Plenty of great ideas were already posted for mace including the counter chance. Pick any of them and just do something to help the guy out. Hate the halfa$$ adjustment they made on him from totally worthless to almost useful.
Agreed, any of these ideas would be better than what we have now. Just having him as a rational choice in any lineup would make me happy.
Yeah, looking at the 80 stats I don't see any change happening with where Mace stands. Even if the damage is balance like stated in last Friday's notes with slow characters hitting harder. His Shatterpoint still only has 45% so basically he still has next to nothing for utility. It appears he will be a slow hard hitting character but with next to no real utility. Obviously my opinion may drastically change after the update happens but my hope aren't very high looking at Mace's track record. Either way I will keep him maxed out and hope for the best.
I think you're right. Unless they buff/rework the kit, he still won't be useful because his skills are barely better than his basic. So hopefully as they are testing heroes at level 80 they will give him another chance
Plenty of great ideas were already posted for mace including the counter chance. Pick any of them and just do something to help the guy out. Hate the halfa$$ adjustment they made on him from totally worthless to almost useful.
Agreed, any of these ideas would be better than what we have now. Just having him as a rational choice in any lineup would make me happy.
Yeah, looking at the 80 stats I don't see any change happening with where Mace stands. Even if the damage is balance like stated in last Friday's notes with slow characters hitting harder. His Shatterpoint still only has 45% so basically he still has next to nothing for utility. It appears he will be a slow hard hitting character but with next to no real utility. Obviously my opinion may drastically change after the update happens but my hope aren't very high looking at Mace's track record. Either way I will keep him maxed out and hope for the best.
I think you're right. Unless they buff/rework the kit, he still won't be useful because his skills are barely better than his basic. So hopefully as they are testing heroes at level 80 they will give him another chance
Yeah hopefully! If he gets a damage increase for being slower and he gets upped to 137% potency he will me a little more useful but still next to no utility or synergy so will likely keep collecting dust. I guess only time will tell.
My Mace is lvl 70, g8, 6*. I enjoy playing with him, as I can take any exposed toon down ~50% health. Problem is, the exposed enemy is not always one I want to hit. For example, I almost have another toon dead... Mace exposes Sid... worthless. Attack Sid, have a great chance of missing, and then have him be healed as soon as the other enemy is killed? I don't think so.
My suggestions:
1) Make expose work on 2-3 enemies at once to give us options. Make resistance to Expose be on an individual basis, so there's overall a better chance of getting SOMEONE exposed.
2) Improve basic hit dmg when over 50% health to +75% or +100%.
With those 2 minor changes, I think he becomes more useful and more feared.
Personally, I'm okay with Smite the way it is b/c I just use it to remove annoying enemy buffs.
There is always a danger with big changes to a character, as it can greatly affect game balance. So I would make minor changes before any sort of overhaul (like giving Mace an AOE).
My Mace is lvl 70, g8, 6*. I enjoy playing with him, as I can take any exposed toon down ~50% health. Problem is, the exposed enemy is not always one I want to hit. For example, I almost have another toon dead... Mace exposes Sid... worthless. Attack Sid, have a great chance of missing, and then have him be healed as soon as the other enemy is killed? I don't think so.
My suggestions:
1) Make expose work on 2-3 enemies at once to give us options. Make resistance to Expose be on an individual basis, so there's overall a better chance of getting SOMEONE exposed.
2) Improve basic hit dmg when over 50% health to +75% or +100%.
With those 2 minor changes, I think he becomes more useful and more feared.
Personally, I'm okay with Smite the way it is b/c I just use it to remove annoying enemy buffs.
There is always a danger with big changes to a character, as it can greatly affect game balance. So I would make minor changes before any sort of overhaul (like giving Mace an AOE).
Just my thoughts.
This would be awesome! And he gets more potency at 80. With your suggestions and more potency he would finally be arena viable
This would be awesome! And he gets more potency at 80. With your suggestions and more potency he would finally be arena viable
Thanks. I also think they should fix the AI version of Mace so that he always attacks an exposed character. Right now he seems to attack at random, regardless of who is exposed. That fix would make him more useful for defending the squad in Squad Arena!
I was reading up on Vaapad and something I came up with that could work really well for him while also allowing him to act more tank like ....
Similar to the Royal Guard, except rather then a taunt buff, he simply does a count style attack against anyone that does not attack him.
Vicious Opening
While an ally is below 50% health, Mace will retaliate against any attack against that ally.
That's a neat idea. It would force opponents to pay attention to Mace or face the consequences (a la Expose). However, I think it would be more effective if he hit a little harder.
They could make him a damage tank still very easily. I don't know that adding taunt us really the answer
It has been discussed in other threads that the Jedi need a Taunter and out of the Jedi Tanks Mace, Old Ben, or Plo Koon are the best candidates. I myself would prefer Old Ben but do agree that giving him taunt would make him too op. Mace is the next most popular choice...
In-Game Name: UltraVegasJedi | Leader/Founder - The Force United
They could make him a damage tank still very easily. I don't know that adding taunt us really the answer
It has been discussed in other threads that the Jedi need a Taunter and out of the Jedi Tanks Mace, Old Ben, or Plo Koon are the best candidates. I myself would prefer Old Ben but do agree that giving him taunt would make him too op. Mace is the next most popular choice...
Wouldn't this go against he's entire build right now? He's supposed to be "devastating" enough that he can't be ignored. Some slight tweak would make this happen.
If you wanting to have an auto taunt to a Jedi should be Plo Koon or JKG so they would actually be usable.
I'm pretty sure that by "devastating if ignored", the devs mean you should take him out or expect him to randomly reduce one of your toons by ~50% health. I think he is pretty devastating in that regard, considering he can take a toon like Barris or Vader down 50% with 1 hit.
That said, I still think he could use a little tweaking, as I mentioned before. In practice, his expose only procs 1-3 times per battle for me, and due to other toons needing to die, I can't always hit the exposed toon. Makes him less devastating...
My Mace is lvl 70, g8, 6*. I enjoy playing with him, as I can take any exposed toon down ~50% health. Problem is, the exposed enemy is not always one I want to hit. For example, I almost have another toon dead... Mace exposes Sid... worthless. Attack Sid, have a great chance of missing, and then have him be healed as soon as the other enemy is killed? I don't think so.
My suggestions:
1) Make expose work on 2-3 enemies at once to give us options. Make resistance to Expose be on an individual basis, so there's overall a better chance of getting SOMEONE exposed.
2) Improve basic hit dmg when over 50% health to +75% or +100%.
With those 2 minor changes, I think he becomes more useful and more feared.
Personally, I'm okay with Smite the way it is b/c I just use it to remove annoying enemy buffs.
There is always a danger with big changes to a character, as it can greatly affect game balance. So I would make minor changes before any sort of overhaul (like giving Mace an AOE).
Mace's basic attack damage is fine, IMO. When he's leader, he gives himself (all Jedi) an additional 20% offense which works in conjuction with his 50% damage bonus when >50%, and higher critical chance as well for another 50%. Assuming the bonuses are additive, that's 220% damage on a critical hit with his basic when >50% heath (multiplicative is even better at 270%).
What is broken is his potency. It needs to be a lot higher, otherwise Shatterpoint and Smite are useless. I've got a 5* Mace @L65 with almost all L8 gear (save the L74 one) and his potency is only 47%. For a hero that relies on debuffing, that's pretty darn low (Talia @ G8 is 110%, Phasma @G8 is 127%).
Making the expose a 1-turn AoE with the same potency could also solve the Shatterpoint issue, but doesn't address Smite. That's why I think a potency increase is the best all-around tweak.
Mace's basic attack damage is fine, IMO. When he's leader, he gives himself (all Jedi) an additional 20% offense which works in conjuction with his 50% damage bonus when >50%, and higher critical chance as well for another 50%. Assuming the bonuses are additive, that's 220% damage on a critical hit with his basic when >50% heath (multiplicative is even better at 270%).
What is broken is his potency. It needs to be a lot higher, otherwise Shatterpoint and Smite are useless. I've got a 5* Mace @L65 with almost all L8 gear (save the L74 one) and his potency is only 47%. For a hero that relies on debuffing, that's pretty darn low (Talia @ G8 is 110%, Phasma @G8 is 127%).
Making the expose a 1-turn AoE with the same potency could also solve the Shatterpoint issue, but doesn't address Smite. That's why I think a potency increase is the best all-around tweak.
If they dont change him by the time you have him Maxed you will see that his damage is lacking. I'm hoping with the changes this week and if they add some more utility he can finally be viable! I have him 100% Maxed out just praying they do him right so I can finally have some fun in Arena/GW with him. Right now he's useless
Mace windu is a boss I not happy with the way the treated him he is supposed to be the best light saber duelist so give him and yoda a high boost in damage and they are freaking Jedi master super accurate strong fast and like perfect at everything except being emotional
What about re-working shatterpoint so that any toon damaged by Mace is exposed for 1 turn but with a 30% chance that the shatter point disappears at the end of each turn taken by Mace's side?
Mace actually **causes** the shatter point with his attacks, rather than merely takes advantage. This way, you're picking the character who will suffer shatter point, but it doesn't last long: one turn, max, and if your next ally is a healer/buffer/debuffer, you have to think hard about whether you can go without that heal/buff/debuff for one more turn to take advantage of the shatterpoint. It might still be there for the next ally in line, but 30% is a pretty major chance it won't be.
If expose was an effect only Mace could cause, that would still seem pretty awesome, but Poe does AoE expose that lasts ***2 full turns***. Mace having a chance to expose a single enemy for less than one turn, but with a new chance every time Mace attacks isn't overpowered. yes, he picks the target, but Poe picks ***freaking everybody***. Follow Poe with Ventress or Sidius or Vader and that's just lethal. If Mace was a threat to expose someone ***of his choosing*** every single turn, he really would be someone who couldn't be ignored.
But, yes, potency still needs to be raised quite a bit.
Vicious Opening
While an ally is below 50% health, Mace will retaliate against any attack against that ally.
Someone else suggested just this power for Plo Koon. I didn't like it for him, and instead suggested an "unbalanced attacker" status that could be inflicted. When a toon with that negative status attacks and does damage, any toon taking damage gets a boost to counter-attack chance.
But while I didn't like it for Plo Koon, I kind of like it for Mace. He doesn't have to taunt, because if you focus your attacks on other people, he just cuts into you from the flank. I suggest that the name for this sort of attack (not a counter-attack, but an attack in response to an attack on an ally) should be a Flank Attack.
Keeping with the Shatterpoint/expose synergy, I like the idea that these Flank Attacks caused by the Vicious Opening ability do only 50% of normal damage, but have a 50% chance of exposing that enemy for one turn. That quick slash? It may not do much damage at first, but the ragged rent in your defenses is gonna be a real problem very soon.
Now Mace doesn't need taunt: you ignore Mace to attack Mace's allies? You just got exposed.
That's enough to make me consider strategy differently when Mace is on the battlefield.
==========================
BeWary was proposing a different solution than Potency UP for making Shatterpoint viable:
1) Make expose work on 2-3 enemies at once to give us options. Make resistance to Expose be on an individual basis, so there's overall a better chance of getting SOMEONE exposed.
As for the expose power itself, the one that lasts only as long as Mace's turn, what if, instead of increasing potency or AoE or "2-3 enemies" the computer listed the opposing toons in random order. Roll Mace's expose percentage. It fails? Move on. It succeeds? Check against tenacity for the first opposing toon. If successful, stop. If no, check against tenacity for the next toon on the list.
It would still be possible for all the opposing toons to resist Mace, but that wouldn't happen often. And it would NOT be possible for more than 1 toon to be exposed at once - Mace would not get options. He has to take the opening that is randomly determined, and only one opening is available per turn through this power (if any at all). Bosses would still be unlikely to be affected by the power because they'll have higher tenacity. Still, someone will be affected (most likely) if you have multiple enemies. This is better than AoE expose in turns of mechanics and balance. It almost guarantees one option for a shatter point attack, but it will never generate multiple options.
Of course, the day before a significant update is a lousy time to suggest new mechanics. If Mace is reworked this time, there won't be another re-work for a long time to come.
===========================
Those 2 changes,
1. a low-damage Flank Attack with a major (50% or so) chance to Expose, and...
2. a shatter point that will check a 2nd enemy if the first resists, and a 3rd if the first 2 resist, etc
would make Mace minimally different, but much more interesting, much more game-viable, and much closer flavor-wise to the descriptions of a character who is excellent at light-saber combat and cannot be ignored to focus on other enemies.
Interesting ideas MasterSeedy, but I'm a little confused. How are you proposing an enemy be flank-attacked by Mace with a good chance to expose? Would it be any time they attack an ally with <50% health? Or would the enemy need your "unbalanced attacker" debuff? If the latter, who would apply it and how often?
I'm sorry, BeWary, I was agreeing with Jarvanomicon. I didn't state it, but I meant most of his proposed game mechanics to remain intact.
So I'm agreeing with
While an ally is below 50% health, Mace will retaliate against any attack against that ally.
while I'm proposing "flank attack" merely as a way to avoid confusion with "retaliate" and "counter-attack". Having a different game term means one more thing to learn, but at least people who haven't learned all the lore won't wonder why Mace isn't counter-attacking on behalf of himself. They'll see the language "flank attack" and even if they don't know what it means, that's better than feeling like they **did** know what "retaliate" or "retribution" or "counterattack" meant, but wrongly applying it to Mace.
In addition to simply tweaking this bit of language, I'm supplementing with:
Any Flank Attack that scores a hit does 1/2 normal damage, but also has a 50% chance to inflict expose on the damaged opponent.
So it could all be rewritten:
While an ally is below 50% health, Mace will Flank Attack any attack against that ally. Any Flank Attack that scores a hit does 1/2 normal damage, but also has a 50% chance to inflict Expose on the damaged opponent.
============
Unbalanced Attacker was used as a comparison. I've actually proposed it for a Plo Koon rework that was initiated by someone else who gave a great write up of background and flavor material for PK. PK would inflict the UA negative status, but at the moment I haven't proposed it for anyone else. That, of course, is entirely separate from what ought to be done about Mace.
If you're interested, the Plo Koon discussion with awesome write up by Nonemo and a long-winded discussion of that write up with proposed mechanics by me can be found in the "Revamp" thread.
I wasn't familiar with PK in either lore or in this game. When I looked him up on my "Characters" page, I remembered why: his powers are utterly forgettable. He has some clone synergy, but really the character is a mess and there isn't a chance I would take him right now:
Is stealth a big problem? No.
Is stealth particularly common among Clone Trooper opponents? No.
So does de-buffing stealth synergies with buffing Clones at all? No.
Is there anything about the character's mechanics that match the source material PK cited? No.
What is the one interaction between PK and the Clones in the movies - since lots of people (including me) have never read a book or anything else where PK was a major character and are only familiar with him from the movies: Getting killed by surprise during the Clone's "execution" of Order 66.
Does that suggest PK should be buffing Clones? No.
Does it suggest that PK is particularly perceptive of sneaky enemies? No.
Despite all that, is PK a powerful toon in-game that would justify taking him despite having no characterization, a mashed up, nonsense power set where one part has no hope of interacting positively with another part? Certainly not.
So I'm very sympathetic to any call to revise PK at the moment. He seems a wasted opportunity, especially since with the right mechanics, the "feel" of his character should actually translate quite well in-game.
I really like the "flank attack" idea for Mace, and your proposed write-up for the ability description is very good.
If "flank attack" were added, I think that alone would balance him out in his tank role. It's not a taunt, but it kinda plays the same role by forcing opponents to do something about him or be pinpricked to death. It's kinda like Dooku, but in a squad-defense role instead of a self-defense role. I wouldn't change anything else about his abilities if "flank attack" were added.
The only other change I would make would be to his AI: make him attack exposed enemies when possible. That way he becomes useful in Squad Arena defense roles and actually lives up to his "devastating if ignored" description.
If "flank attack" were added, I think that alone would balance him out in his tank role. It's not a taunt, but it kinda plays the same role
Yep. That's what I was thinking.
The only other change I would make would be to his AI: make him attack exposed enemies when possible.
Not even always. If he attacked exposed enemies 70%+ of the time that an exposed enemy was available (not stealthed, not protected by a tank with taunt, etc.) that would probably be enough.
It wouldn't require an overhaul. Give him Flank Attack when allies are below 50% health, focus the AI a bit, and then, if you're going to do anything else at all, just make it so that he tries to Expose more than one Enemy (in random order) but stops as soon as any one enemy fails to resist. That way you never expose multiple enemies, and you're not improving Potency to give you a better chance at the big boss, but the Expose actually plays more of a role in game play. As it is now, it feels like a rare & random bonus rather than an integral part of his kit.
Although, if Flank Attack did inflict expose 50% of the time (subject to resistance), there would be a lot more exposed enemies over time, and maybe you wouldn't even need the "multiple attempts, one success" rule above and just keep it one attempt. I'm not sure. I'm tempted to go "multiple attempts, one success" but if they just put in FA without that, I'd be pretty happy.
Mace windu is a boss I not happy with the way the treated him he is supposed to be the best light saber duelist so give him and yoda a high boost in damage and they are freaking Jedi master super accurate strong fast and like perfect at everything except being emotional
Agreed, unfortunately this game is not based on the movies. But regardless Mace should at least me usable, right now he doesn't hit very hard for someone with no utility and slow speed
What about re-working shatterpoint so that any toon damaged by Mace is exposed for 1 turn but with a 30% chance that the shatter point disappears at the end of each turn taken by Mace's side?
Mace actually **causes** the shatter point with his attacks, rather than merely takes advantage. This way, you're picking the character who will suffer shatter point, but it doesn't last long: one turn, max, and if your next ally is a healer/buffer/debuffer, you have to think hard about whether you can go without that heal/buff/debuff for one more turn to take advantage of the shatterpoint. It might still be there for the next ally in line, but 30% is a pretty major chance it won't be.
If expose was an effect only Mace could cause, that would still seem pretty awesome, but Poe does AoE expose that lasts ***2 full turns***. Mace having a chance to expose a single enemy for less than one turn, but with a new chance every time Mace attacks isn't overpowered. yes, he picks the target, but Poe picks ***freaking everybody***. Follow Poe with Ventress or Sidius or Vader and that's just lethal. If Mace was a threat to expose someone ***of his choosing*** every single turn, he really would be someone who couldn't be ignored.
But, yes, potency still needs to be raised quite a bit.
This is a great idea! Then he wouldn't be so RNG either and his shatterpoint would actually have some affectiveness. I would still like to see the same % of causing expose tho
Come on, windu is yoda second, work on him.. Unless EA is a sith order that hated the JEDI
Supposedly he was the most skilled with the lightsaber out of the entire council. In game his damage is average and he is completely full of bugs/broken abilities and average stats at best.
Mace is supposed to be "devastating" per his in game description. Yet he has the second lowest physical damage in the game, so his basic becomes average with the 50% damage bonus. Especially considering he rarely crits having the second lowest physical crit in the game....
Instead of Mace Windu having a chance to expose at the start of his turn, let him expose his current target AFTER he attacks. Then grant the turn meter bonus on successful expose. Also increase the potency to make it not get resisted when it does proc. This would make him more consistent... Also his damage and speed are too low. The healing effect on his basic attack is weak also, it should heal 100% of damage dealt, as Talia's does.
Or inflict expose as he attacks, that way it always hits his target.
Replies
Yeah, looking at the 80 stats I don't see any change happening with where Mace stands. Even if the damage is balance like stated in last Friday's notes with slow characters hitting harder. His Shatterpoint still only has 45% so basically he still has next to nothing for utility. It appears he will be a slow hard hitting character but with next to no real utility. Obviously my opinion may drastically change after the update happens but my hope aren't very high looking at Mace's track record. Either way I will keep him maxed out and hope for the best.
I think you're right. Unless they buff/rework the kit, he still won't be useful because his skills are barely better than his basic. So hopefully as they are testing heroes at level 80 they will give him another chance
Yeah hopefully! If he gets a damage increase for being slower and he gets upped to 137% potency he will me a little more useful but still next to no utility or synergy so will likely keep collecting dust. I guess only time will tell.
My suggestions:
1) Make expose work on 2-3 enemies at once to give us options. Make resistance to Expose be on an individual basis, so there's overall a better chance of getting SOMEONE exposed.
2) Improve basic hit dmg when over 50% health to +75% or +100%.
With those 2 minor changes, I think he becomes more useful and more feared.
Personally, I'm okay with Smite the way it is b/c I just use it to remove annoying enemy buffs.
There is always a danger with big changes to a character, as it can greatly affect game balance. So I would make minor changes before any sort of overhaul (like giving Mace an AOE).
Just my thoughts.
This would be awesome! And he gets more potency at 80. With your suggestions and more potency he would finally be arena viable
Thanks. I also think they should fix the AI version of Mace so that he always attacks an exposed character. Right now he seems to attack at random, regardless of who is exposed. That fix would make him more useful for defending the squad in Squad Arena!
Similar to the Royal Guard, except rather then a taunt buff, he simply does a count style attack against anyone that does not attack him.
Vicious Opening
While an ally is below 50% health, Mace will retaliate against any attack against that ally.
That's a neat idea. It would force opponents to pay attention to Mace or face the consequences (a la Expose). However, I think it would be more effective if he hit a little harder.
They could make him a damage tank still very easily. I don't know that adding taunt us really the answer
It has been discussed in other threads that the Jedi need a Taunter and out of the Jedi Tanks Mace, Old Ben, or Plo Koon are the best candidates. I myself would prefer Old Ben but do agree that giving him taunt would make him too op. Mace is the next most popular choice...
Wouldn't this go against he's entire build right now? He's supposed to be "devastating" enough that he can't be ignored. Some slight tweak would make this happen.
If you wanting to have an auto taunt to a Jedi should be Plo Koon or JKG so they would actually be usable.
That said, I still think he could use a little tweaking, as I mentioned before. In practice, his expose only procs 1-3 times per battle for me, and due to other toons needing to die, I can't always hit the exposed toon. Makes him less devastating...
+1
What is broken is his potency. It needs to be a lot higher, otherwise Shatterpoint and Smite are useless. I've got a 5* Mace @L65 with almost all L8 gear (save the L74 one) and his potency is only 47%. For a hero that relies on debuffing, that's pretty darn low (Talia @ G8 is 110%, Phasma @G8 is 127%).
Making the expose a 1-turn AoE with the same potency could also solve the Shatterpoint issue, but doesn't address Smite. That's why I think a potency increase is the best all-around tweak.
If they dont change him by the time you have him Maxed you will see that his damage is lacking. I'm hoping with the changes this week and if they add some more utility he can finally be viable! I have him 100% Maxed out just praying they do him right so I can finally have some fun in Arena/GW with him. Right now he's useless
Mace actually **causes** the shatter point with his attacks, rather than merely takes advantage. This way, you're picking the character who will suffer shatter point, but it doesn't last long: one turn, max, and if your next ally is a healer/buffer/debuffer, you have to think hard about whether you can go without that heal/buff/debuff for one more turn to take advantage of the shatterpoint. It might still be there for the next ally in line, but 30% is a pretty major chance it won't be.
If expose was an effect only Mace could cause, that would still seem pretty awesome, but Poe does AoE expose that lasts ***2 full turns***. Mace having a chance to expose a single enemy for less than one turn, but with a new chance every time Mace attacks isn't overpowered. yes, he picks the target, but Poe picks ***freaking everybody***. Follow Poe with Ventress or Sidius or Vader and that's just lethal. If Mace was a threat to expose someone ***of his choosing*** every single turn, he really would be someone who couldn't be ignored.
But, yes, potency still needs to be raised quite a bit.
Jarvanomicon above mentioned "Vicious Opening"...
Someone else suggested just this power for Plo Koon. I didn't like it for him, and instead suggested an "unbalanced attacker" status that could be inflicted. When a toon with that negative status attacks and does damage, any toon taking damage gets a boost to counter-attack chance.
But while I didn't like it for Plo Koon, I kind of like it for Mace. He doesn't have to taunt, because if you focus your attacks on other people, he just cuts into you from the flank. I suggest that the name for this sort of attack (not a counter-attack, but an attack in response to an attack on an ally) should be a Flank Attack.
Keeping with the Shatterpoint/expose synergy, I like the idea that these Flank Attacks caused by the Vicious Opening ability do only 50% of normal damage, but have a 50% chance of exposing that enemy for one turn. That quick slash? It may not do much damage at first, but the ragged rent in your defenses is gonna be a real problem very soon.
Now Mace doesn't need taunt: you ignore Mace to attack Mace's allies? You just got exposed.
That's enough to make me consider strategy differently when Mace is on the battlefield.
==========================
BeWary was proposing a different solution than Potency UP for making Shatterpoint viable:
As for the expose power itself, the one that lasts only as long as Mace's turn, what if, instead of increasing potency or AoE or "2-3 enemies" the computer listed the opposing toons in random order. Roll Mace's expose percentage. It fails? Move on. It succeeds? Check against tenacity for the first opposing toon. If successful, stop. If no, check against tenacity for the next toon on the list.
It would still be possible for all the opposing toons to resist Mace, but that wouldn't happen often. And it would NOT be possible for more than 1 toon to be exposed at once - Mace would not get options. He has to take the opening that is randomly determined, and only one opening is available per turn through this power (if any at all). Bosses would still be unlikely to be affected by the power because they'll have higher tenacity. Still, someone will be affected (most likely) if you have multiple enemies. This is better than AoE expose in turns of mechanics and balance. It almost guarantees one option for a shatter point attack, but it will never generate multiple options.
Of course, the day before a significant update is a lousy time to suggest new mechanics. If Mace is reworked this time, there won't be another re-work for a long time to come.
===========================
Those 2 changes,
1. a low-damage Flank Attack with a major (50% or so) chance to Expose, and...
2. a shatter point that will check a 2nd enemy if the first resists, and a 3rd if the first 2 resist, etc
would make Mace minimally different, but much more interesting, much more game-viable, and much closer flavor-wise to the descriptions of a character who is excellent at light-saber combat and cannot be ignored to focus on other enemies.
So I'm agreeing with
while I'm proposing "flank attack" merely as a way to avoid confusion with "retaliate" and "counter-attack". Having a different game term means one more thing to learn, but at least people who haven't learned all the lore won't wonder why Mace isn't counter-attacking on behalf of himself. They'll see the language "flank attack" and even if they don't know what it means, that's better than feeling like they **did** know what "retaliate" or "retribution" or "counterattack" meant, but wrongly applying it to Mace.
In addition to simply tweaking this bit of language, I'm supplementing with:
So it could all be rewritten:
============
Unbalanced Attacker was used as a comparison. I've actually proposed it for a Plo Koon rework that was initiated by someone else who gave a great write up of background and flavor material for PK. PK would inflict the UA negative status, but at the moment I haven't proposed it for anyone else. That, of course, is entirely separate from what ought to be done about Mace.
If you're interested, the Plo Koon discussion with awesome write up by Nonemo and a long-winded discussion of that write up with proposed mechanics by me can be found in the "Revamp" thread.
You can find it here.
I wasn't familiar with PK in either lore or in this game. When I looked him up on my "Characters" page, I remembered why: his powers are utterly forgettable. He has some clone synergy, but really the character is a mess and there isn't a chance I would take him right now:
Is stealth a big problem? No.
Is stealth particularly common among Clone Trooper opponents? No.
So does de-buffing stealth synergies with buffing Clones at all? No.
Is there anything about the character's mechanics that match the source material PK cited? No.
What is the one interaction between PK and the Clones in the movies - since lots of people (including me) have never read a book or anything else where PK was a major character and are only familiar with him from the movies: Getting killed by surprise during the Clone's "execution" of Order 66.
Does that suggest PK should be buffing Clones? No.
Does it suggest that PK is particularly perceptive of sneaky enemies? No.
Despite all that, is PK a powerful toon in-game that would justify taking him despite having no characterization, a mashed up, nonsense power set where one part has no hope of interacting positively with another part? Certainly not.
So I'm very sympathetic to any call to revise PK at the moment. He seems a wasted opportunity, especially since with the right mechanics, the "feel" of his character should actually translate quite well in-game.
I really like the "flank attack" idea for Mace, and your proposed write-up for the ability description is very good.
If "flank attack" were added, I think that alone would balance him out in his tank role. It's not a taunt, but it kinda plays the same role by forcing opponents to do something about him or be pinpricked to death. It's kinda like Dooku, but in a squad-defense role instead of a self-defense role. I wouldn't change anything else about his abilities if "flank attack" were added.
The only other change I would make would be to his AI: make him attack exposed enemies when possible. That way he becomes useful in Squad Arena defense roles and actually lives up to his "devastating if ignored" description.
Yep. That's what I was thinking.
Not even always. If he attacked exposed enemies 70%+ of the time that an exposed enemy was available (not stealthed, not protected by a tank with taunt, etc.) that would probably be enough.
It wouldn't require an overhaul. Give him Flank Attack when allies are below 50% health, focus the AI a bit, and then, if you're going to do anything else at all, just make it so that he tries to Expose more than one Enemy (in random order) but stops as soon as any one enemy fails to resist. That way you never expose multiple enemies, and you're not improving Potency to give you a better chance at the big boss, but the Expose actually plays more of a role in game play. As it is now, it feels like a rare & random bonus rather than an integral part of his kit.
Although, if Flank Attack did inflict expose 50% of the time (subject to resistance), there would be a lot more exposed enemies over time, and maybe you wouldn't even need the "multiple attempts, one success" rule above and just keep it one attempt. I'm not sure. I'm tempted to go "multiple attempts, one success" but if they just put in FA without that, I'd be pretty happy.
Agreed, unfortunately this game is not based on the movies. But regardless Mace should at least me usable, right now he doesn't hit very hard for someone with no utility and slow speed
This is a great idea! Then he wouldn't be so RNG either and his shatterpoint would actually have some affectiveness. I would still like to see the same % of causing expose tho
Supposedly he was the most skilled with the lightsaber out of the entire council. In game his damage is average and he is completely full of bugs/broken abilities and average stats at best.
http://swgoh.gg/characters/stats/ (click on offense and filter physical damage and then physical crit)
Mace is supposed to be "devastating" per his in game description. Yet he has the second lowest physical damage in the game, so his basic becomes average with the 50% damage bonus. Especially considering he rarely crits having the second lowest physical crit in the game....
Or inflict expose as he attacks, that way it always hits his target.