GP Matchmaking & “Fluff”

Replies

  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Jeric wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Place 2 Olympic level runners in a race, the can both have the best mile times and may even be close.

    One runs marathons and the other shorter races.

    They are equals athletically and in many respects, but one will have a clear advantage in a marathon.

    It's about how you build your roster and how you develop in the game. If you developed more competitively or not. That's the players choice.

    So keeping with that metaphor they should consider two versions of Grand Arena. One for the sprinters and one for the marathon runners. A few key changes to matchmaking and character bonus parameters would give an edge to those with greater breadth of a roster.

    I’m currently matched with someone with 200k higher GP but no Revan, Bastila, Traya, or Chewie. He is at a huge disadvantage from go. The challenge is significantly reduced for me which makes this less enjoyable if he has no chance of taking me out.



    No.

    If I call for a race and invite all runners to "The Kyno classic" and give no details on the race. I will get a random assortment of runners.

    Then I group them by mile time, a decent but not hyper accurate measure of a runner. Just like GP. I ignore the specifics of that persons development and just focus on a single factor common to "all".

    Then i place them in a series of 3 races.

    If all 3 are longer races we will see a certain style of racer taking top positions.

    This is what GA is doing.

    GP is a points system based in development. This means the Dev team is not judging characters or specific development strategies, which is the right move IMO.

    They are saying you have used X number of points and matching you at some level against a player who has also used X number of points.

    Player 1 zeta CLS and player 2 leveled a bunch of toons to equal that same point value. That is a player choice and should not be judged by the dev team.

    Ships since they are not being used (at least this round) are fluff that should not be considered. Everything else is how a player chose to develop using the points they have gained.

    Ok, if there intended purpose wasnt to use and level up all your toons. paper zombie, seems to go directly against that. As you say people with trim and lean rosters, ie not leveling and gearing toons, have the advantage, Doesn't that go directly against their stated purpose? Thats what i dont understand, we want you to use and level all your toons, except if you do, we will create a new game mode that punishes you for doing what the game was designed for. So you can keep talking about the different runners , but if they stated they wanted you to run marathons then changed the race later on to sprints , would that still hold?

    Paper zombie fix had nothing to do with making you level up ALL your toons.... It had everything to do with ensuring toons performed better when geared...using

    The simple fact is that this is a resource management game first and foremost, but it is also a collector's game.....

    Each and every player has the choice to either build strong teams one at a time to be competitive in game modes, or collect a bunch of weak, undergeared toons....

    If you choose to build weak undergeared toons and don't have the patience to build solid g12 teams, then don't expect to be rewarded with an easy matchup that compensates for your lack of management. As I see it, the whole.purpose of these matches is to put your lineup against a similar GP player and let the best player win based on how well they have learned the game and allocated their resources.... Seems fair to me.....

    There’s a downside to this for the strong PVP player too, though. By all rights, the PVP-focused player should be playing or better rewards, against stronger competition, than the collector. The guy I’m playing against has more twice as many G12s as I do. His roster is really impressive! Why in the world should he be satisfied with the same range of possible rewards that I would be? Give him better competition and let him get better rewards! Give me fair competition and I’m happy to settle for lower rewards.

    These players already get better rewards in other areas of the game, arena #1 spot, etc... Let's not try to create better tiers of rewards for top players in every aspect of the game. Mythic, not for average players. HSTR top 10 rewards vs 11-20 etc...
  • FolsomTony wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Jeric wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Place 2 Olympic level runners in a race, the can both have the best mile times and may even be close.

    One runs marathons and the other shorter races.

    They are equals athletically and in many respects, but one will have a clear advantage in a marathon.

    It's about how you build your roster and how you develop in the game. If you developed more competitively or not. That's the players choice.

    So keeping with that metaphor they should consider two versions of Grand Arena. One for the sprinters and one for the marathon runners. A few key changes to matchmaking and character bonus parameters would give an edge to those with greater breadth of a roster.

    I’m currently matched with someone with 200k higher GP but no Revan, Bastila, Traya, or Chewie. He is at a huge disadvantage from go. The challenge is significantly reduced for me which makes this less enjoyable if he has no chance of taking me out.



    No.

    If I call for a race and invite all runners to "The Kyno classic" and give no details on the race. I will get a random assortment of runners.

    Then I group them by mile time, a decent but not hyper accurate measure of a runner. Just like GP. I ignore the specifics of that persons development and just focus on a single factor common to "all".

    Then i place them in a series of 3 races.

    If all 3 are longer races we will see a certain style of racer taking top positions.

    This is what GA is doing.

    GP is a points system based in development. This means the Dev team is not judging characters or specific development strategies, which is the right move IMO.

    They are saying you have used X number of points and matching you at some level against a player who has also used X number of points.

    Player 1 zeta CLS and player 2 leveled a bunch of toons to equal that same point value. That is a player choice and should not be judged by the dev team.

    Ships since they are not being used (at least this round) are fluff that should not be considered. Everything else is how a player chose to develop using the points they have gained.

    Ok, if there intended purpose wasnt to use and level up all your toons. paper zombie, seems to go directly against that. As you say people with trim and lean rosters, ie not leveling and gearing toons, have the advantage, Doesn't that go directly against their stated purpose? Thats what i dont understand, we want you to use and level all your toons, except if you do, we will create a new game mode that punishes you for doing what the game was designed for. So you can keep talking about the different runners , but if they stated they wanted you to run marathons then changed the race later on to sprints , would that still hold?

    Paper zombie fix had nothing to do with making you level up ALL your toons.... It had everything to do with ensuring toons performed better when geared...using

    The simple fact is that this is a resource management game first and foremost, but it is also a collector's game.....

    Each and every player has the choice to either build strong teams one at a time to be competitive in game modes, or collect a bunch of weak, undergeared toons....

    If you choose to build weak undergeared toons and don't have the patience to build solid g12 teams, then don't expect to be rewarded with an easy matchup that compensates for your lack of management. As I see it, the whole.purpose of these matches is to put your lineup against a similar GP player and let the best player win based on how well they have learned the game and allocated their resources.... Seems fair to me.....

    There’s a downside to this for the strong PVP player too, though. By all rights, the PVP-focused player should be playing or better rewards, against stronger competition, than the collector. The guy I’m playing against has more twice as many G12s as I do. His roster is really impressive! Why in the world should he be satisfied with the same range of possible rewards that I would be? Give him better competition and let him get better rewards! Give me fair competition and I’m happy to settle for lower rewards.

    These players already get better rewards in other areas of the game, arena #1 spot, etc... Let's not try to create better tiers of rewards for top players in every aspect of the game. Mythic, not for average players. HSTR top 10 rewards vs 11-20 etc...

    They’ll be having more fun and I’ll be having more fun. How is that not a win-win?
    I demand Grand Arena Elo ratings.
  • I don't think anyone said the intent of matchmaking is to give everyone equal chance of winning..... I sure hope that isn't the intent, I'm not a participation trophy kinda guy.....

    When the pairings are this lopsided, all anybody is getting, win or lose, is a participation trophy. Sign up, post a nominal defense, maybe waste a few attacks, receive the preordained rewards in your inbox. I’m the one asking for real competition here. You’re the one who thinks we should be getting rewards just for signing up.

    Not every matchup is lobsided it just depends on who you draw..... And, as usual, it's the people that didn't manage properly that are trying the loudest...

    You are in a real competition by playing this game daily and managing and building your teams... GA is not a satellite entity that exists outside the game, it's just another way to reward players who build strong teams..... Second place rewards are the consolation prize for those who don't....
  • Liath wrote: »
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    That comment was made in response to somebody complaining that the guy he attacked in arena was somehow cheating since his team with a lower GP won. Raw GP means nothing in the context of that thread. Obviously it has an impact in other areas of the game, even before GA.

    Im comparing apples to apples , if raw gp has no bearing on an arena matchup. why does it in the grand arena matchup? If using raw gp to compare 2 teams is not right , how us it right fir comparing 2 collections. I think this is the perfect example of why raw gp is useless when matching up players
  • No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »

    I don't think anyone said the intent of matchmaking is to give everyone equal chance of winning..... I sure hope that isn't the intent, I'm not a participation trophy kinda guy.....

    Why not? That should be the intent if it isn't currently, that's sensible design; trying to put 2 opponents with as close likelihood to %50 chance of winning on paper.

    I don't think that should be the intent at all..... Matching by straight up GP makes sense to me.... The winner will be the player that made the best use of their resources and has the better strategy, both important factors in playing this game....

    I think we made enough illustrations in the topic already. I leveled everything to max, maxed out as much abilities as possible, geared them 7&8 lowest, put maxed mods on everything. This has zero impact on the usable portion of my roster and I still have 140M credits I can't spend.

    Now can you say I didn't make best use of my resources? How so?

    However if I knew CG would take the easy route out, I would keep everything that's not of immediate use untouched to game the lack of foresight of the current system. That's not in spirit of gaming. Neither on my behalf, nor as designers of the game.

    Well, g7 and 8 is very weak..... Maybe if you hadn't boosted all of those teams you would have more g11 and 12 toons and would be more competitive in your GA bracket?....

    It js very much is in the spirit of a resource management game that putting resources into unusable investments is going to cost you..... We have had TW in this game for a long time, you can't tell me you didn't know that having a bunch of fluff teams hurts you and your guild.....

    What good are those g7 and g8 toons?.... In one post, you identify them as not being part of the "usable portion of your roster", then go on to ask me how I can say you "didn't make the best use of your resources"..... Think about that for a minute....

    How does gearing things to g7-8 with stuff I already have, have to put no investment whatsoever in impact my ability to gear toons to 12? I did make best use of my resources, these 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, in fact in most cases one has no bearing on other at all..... Think about that for a minute.

    Because a lot of the gear you are using to get those toons to G8 will be needed at higher levels.....
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »

    I don't think anyone said the intent of matchmaking is to give everyone equal chance of winning..... I sure hope that isn't the intent, I'm not a participation trophy kinda guy.....

    Why not? That should be the intent if it isn't currently, that's sensible design; trying to put 2 opponents with as close likelihood to %50 chance of winning on paper.

    I don't think that should be the intent at all..... Matching by straight up GP makes sense to me.... The winner will be the player that made the best use of their resources and has the better strategy, both important factors in playing this game....

    I think we made enough illustrations in the topic already. I leveled everything to max, maxed out as much abilities as possible, geared them 7&8 lowest, put maxed mods on everything. This has zero impact on the usable portion of my roster and I still have 140M credits I can't spend.

    Now can you say I didn't make best use of my resources? How so?

    However if I knew CG would take the easy route out, I would keep everything that's not of immediate use untouched to game the lack of foresight of the current system. That's not in spirit of gaming. Neither on my behalf, nor as designers of the game.

    Well, g7 and 8 is very weak..... Maybe if you hadn't boosted all of those teams you would have more g11 and 12 toons and would be more competitive in your GA bracket?....

    It js very much is in the spirit of a resource management game that putting resources into unusable investments is going to cost you..... We have had TW in this game for a long time, you can't tell me you didn't know that having a bunch of fluff teams hurts you and your guild.....

    What good are those g7 and g8 toons?.... In one post, you identify them as not being part of the "usable portion of your roster", then go on to ask me how I can say you "didn't make the best use of your resources"..... Think about that for a minute....

    How does gearing things to g7-8 with stuff I already have, have to put no investment whatsoever in impact my ability to gear toons to 12? I did make best use of my resources, these 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, in fact in most cases one has no bearing on other at all..... Think about that for a minute.

    Because a lot of the gear you are using to get those toons to G8 will be needed at higher levels.....

    Nah bro. As long as you're not handing out carbantis and such, you can get a lot of toons to g7-8 without sacrificing anything at all in gearing up your more valuable toons.
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    I don't think anyone said the intent of matchmaking is to give everyone equal chance of winning..... I sure hope that isn't the intent, I'm not a participation trophy kinda guy.....

    When the pairings are this lopsided, all anybody is getting, win or lose, is a participation trophy. Sign up, post a nominal defense, maybe waste a few attacks, receive the preordained rewards in your inbox. I’m the one asking for real competition here. You’re the one who thinks we should be getting rewards just for signing up.

    Not every matchup is lobsided it just depends on who you draw..... And, as usual, it's the people that didn't manage properly that are trying the loudest...

    You are in a real competition by playing this game daily and managing and building your teams... GA is not a satellite entity that exists outside the game, it's just another way to reward players who build strong teams..... Second place rewards are the consolation prize for those who don't....

    Again, if it’s just about distributing more rewards to the people who need them the least, they could do that via the inbox, without all the rigmarole of a new game mode. The fact that they invested in a new mode suggests that they want people to engage with it and enjoy it. I’m trying to make suggestions that will make it more enjoyable for more players.
    I demand Grand Arena Elo ratings.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Jeric wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Place 2 Olympic level runners in a race, the can both have the best mile times and may even be close.

    One runs marathons and the other shorter races.

    They are equals athletically and in many respects, but one will have a clear advantage in a marathon.

    It's about how you build your roster and how you develop in the game. If you developed more competitively or not. That's the players choice.

    So keeping with that metaphor they should consider two versions of Grand Arena. One for the sprinters and one for the marathon runners. A few key changes to matchmaking and character bonus parameters would give an edge to those with greater breadth of a roster.

    I’m currently matched with someone with 200k higher GP but no Revan, Bastila, Traya, or Chewie. He is at a huge disadvantage from go. The challenge is significantly reduced for me which makes this less enjoyable if he has no chance of taking me out.



    No.

    If I call for a race and invite all runners to "The Kyno classic" and give no details on the race. I will get a random assortment of runners.

    Then I group them by mile time, a decent but not hyper accurate measure of a runner. Just like GP. I ignore the specifics of that persons development and just focus on a single factor common to "all".

    Then i place them in a series of 3 races.

    If all 3 are longer races we will see a certain style of racer taking top positions.

    This is what GA is doing.

    GP is a points system based in development. This means the Dev team is not judging characters or specific development strategies, which is the right move IMO.

    They are saying you have used X number of points and matching you at some level against a player who has also used X number of points.

    Player 1 zeta CLS and player 2 leveled a bunch of toons to equal that same point value. That is a player choice and should not be judged by the dev team.

    Ships since they are not being used (at least this round) are fluff that should not be considered. Everything else is how a player chose to develop using the points they have gained.

    Ok, if there intended purpose wasnt to use and level up all your toons. paper zombie, seems to go directly against that. As you say people with trim and lean rosters, ie not leveling and gearing toons, have the advantage, Doesn't that go directly against their stated purpose? Thats what i dont understand, we want you to use and level all your toons, except if you do, we will create a new game mode that punishes you for doing what the game was designed for. So you can keep talking about the different runners , but if they stated they wanted you to run marathons then changed the race later on to sprints , would that still hold?

    I never said not leveling and gearing, but developing with an intent. If you goal is to be competitive in TW, you are focusing development on certain teams to counter or have a good defense. That doesnt mean you stop developing, or slow developing, but you do focus.

    I know many players that are TW focused that have a great ewok team. It's not a common team or faction to be developed, but they are useful.

    It all follows the spirit if the development game, but it is not development for developments sake. That just inflated GP for things like TB.

    You never said not gearing and leveling. But you dont need to, just like with zombie , its obvious to anyone who read the description, not gearing and keeping it weak was better.
    How is this any different. Keep most of your roster weak and get better opportunities in the arena. And before you say wins and losses count, thats only after your grouped by GP.
    You are punishing players who try to help their guilds in tb , by having a bunch of high star low level toons, with an extremely
    Inflated GP. But i guess they just made bad choices helping their guild.

    Why is it so difficult for people to accept that this is a different type of game mode than TB?
  • No_Try
    3778 posts Member
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »

    I don't think anyone said the intent of matchmaking is to give everyone equal chance of winning..... I sure hope that isn't the intent, I'm not a participation trophy kinda guy.....

    Why not? That should be the intent if it isn't currently, that's sensible design; trying to put 2 opponents with as close likelihood to %50 chance of winning on paper.

    I don't think that should be the intent at all..... Matching by straight up GP makes sense to me.... The winner will be the player that made the best use of their resources and has the better strategy, both important factors in playing this game....

    I think we made enough illustrations in the topic already. I leveled everything to max, maxed out as much abilities as possible, geared them 7&8 lowest, put maxed mods on everything. This has zero impact on the usable portion of my roster and I still have 140M credits I can't spend.

    Now can you say I didn't make best use of my resources? How so?

    However if I knew CG would take the easy route out, I would keep everything that's not of immediate use untouched to game the lack of foresight of the current system. That's not in spirit of gaming. Neither on my behalf, nor as designers of the game.

    Well, g7 and 8 is very weak..... Maybe if you hadn't boosted all of those teams you would have more g11 and 12 toons and would be more competitive in your GA bracket?....

    It js very much is in the spirit of a resource management game that putting resources into unusable investments is going to cost you..... We have had TW in this game for a long time, you can't tell me you didn't know that having a bunch of fluff teams hurts you and your guild.....

    What good are those g7 and g8 toons?.... In one post, you identify them as not being part of the "usable portion of your roster", then go on to ask me how I can say you "didn't make the best use of your resources"..... Think about that for a minute....

    How does gearing things to g7-8 with stuff I already have, have to put no investment whatsoever in impact my ability to gear toons to 12? I did make best use of my resources, these 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, in fact in most cases one has no bearing on other at all..... Think about that for a minute.

    Because a lot of the gear you are using to get those toons to G8 will be needed at higher levels.....

    Nop, not the case at all. There's zero bottlenecks I'm encountering that's needed or I have a low amount of while gearing to 7-8. When I do, I stop using that gear (i.e. carbantis or discs). Then there's the case of abilities, I level them if only I have an abundancy of purples. I don't omega or zeta stuff that's not gonna be used obviously. I level all toons to 85 and all my toons have maxed mods on them. Still have 140M credits in stock which is constantly increasing.

    None of these have any impact on my ability to further my roster, none whatsoever. All of these are punishing me for it due to CGs poor decision which you are supporting. You got any other points lining up? I've debunked these already twice.

    You can check my roster and tell me what your claim of poor resource management entails if you wanna. It's in the sig.
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    I don't think anyone said the intent of matchmaking is to give everyone equal chance of winning..... I sure hope that isn't the intent, I'm not a participation trophy kinda guy.....

    When the pairings are this lopsided, all anybody is getting, win or lose, is a participation trophy. Sign up, post a nominal defense, maybe waste a few attacks, receive the preordained rewards in your inbox. I’m the one asking for real competition here. You’re the one who thinks we should be getting rewards just for signing up.

    Not every matchup is lobsided it just depends on who you draw..... And, as usual, it's the people that didn't manage properly that are trying the loudest...

    You are in a real competition by playing this game daily and managing and building your teams... GA is not a satellite entity that exists outside the game, it's just another way to reward players who build strong teams..... Second place rewards are the consolation prize for those who don't....

    Again, if it’s just about distributing more rewards to the people who need them the least, they could do that via the inbox, without all the rigmarole of a new game mode. The fact that they invested in a new mode suggests that they want people to engage with it and enjoy it. I’m trying to make suggestions that will make it more enjoyable for more players.

    It's not just about distributing rewards.... There are lots of us who got good challenging matchups, you just don't see us here on the forums complaining....
  • I'm going to say I have a lot "fluff" on my team.

    It was kinda sorta somewhat implied to be good for TB when it was first introduced.

    Toons that I upgraded a bit to inflate GP for early TB last year (Lvl 40, Gear 4, Abilities at 3):
    -Ahsoka Tano (Fulcrum)
    -Eeth Koth
    -Pao
    -Kit Fisto
    -URoRRuR'R'R

    I won't complain about Jawas, as they were mandatory at one point. I didn't get them too high, just high enough to 3* the Mod Challenge for SIM'ing purposes.

    Ewoks kinda fell into that category as well, but now that they're mandatory for C-3PO, I don't feel so bad.

    Instead of building up 2-3 teams to be great, I was spreading my resources "thin" building many teams.

    I am adequate in TB and TW. Not useless nor overpowering in either. We already have "powerhouse" members to do certain things, which means they've left certain things that other players like me can cover.

    I also got a bunch of Toons from the early days that I stopped using. So they've been doing nothing except TW Defence fodder or TB Platoon/Deployment fodder. Then there's the ones that I'm slowing bringing up so that they can replace certain members in certain squads, like Dengar replacing Cad Bane. Dengar is not Geared up yet, but he'll get there soon.

    Got a lot of Toons in "no-man's-land". I'm sure many players has similar stories.
    Rule #55: "The riskier the road, the greater the profit."
    Rule #214: "Never begin a business transaction on an empty stomach."
    Rule #255: "A wife is a luxury, a smart accountant a necessity."

    Started mid-FEB 2017, and not trying to reach the top.
  • Liath
    4812 posts Member
    Liath wrote: »
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    That comment was made in response to somebody complaining that the guy he attacked in arena was somehow cheating since his team with a lower GP won. Raw GP means nothing in the context of that thread. Obviously it has an impact in other areas of the game, even before GA.

    Im comparing apples to apples , if raw gp has no bearing on an arena matchup. why does it in the grand arena matchup? If using raw gp to compare 2 teams is not right , how us it right fir comparing 2 collections. I think this is the perfect example of why raw gp is useless when matching up players

    You quoted me out of context in a way that made it look like I was saying something I wasn’t. You could have made your own point without bringing my unrelated point into it.

    Nobody who understands this game thinks that raw GP is a good measure of effectiveness. Even accounting for number of g12 or zetas or whatever, you can have the same GP gearing meta characters or worthless characters. The guy who geared Tuskens and zetaed CW Chewie because he loves them is going to be at a disadvantage. The disagreement in these threads is over whether that’s a bad thing, not whether it’s true. The argument isn’t “equal GP is equally effective,” it’s “if you make poor decisions on how to allocate your resources, it’s ok for you to be at a disadvantage in this game mode.” Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread from which you pulled that quote.
  • Macattack9 wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »

    I don't think anyone said the intent of matchmaking is to give everyone equal chance of winning..... I sure hope that isn't the intent, I'm not a participation trophy kinda guy.....

    Why not? That should be the intent if it isn't currently, that's sensible design; trying to put 2 opponents with as close likelihood to %50 chance of winning on paper.

    I don't think that should be the intent at all..... Matching by straight up GP makes sense to me.... The winner will be the player that made the best use of their resources and has the better strategy, both important factors in playing this game....

    I think we made enough illustrations in the topic already. I leveled everything to max, maxed out as much abilities as possible, geared them 7&8 lowest, put maxed mods on everything. This has zero impact on the usable portion of my roster and I still have 140M credits I can't spend.

    Now can you say I didn't make best use of my resources? How so?

    However if I knew CG would take the easy route out, I would keep everything that's not of immediate use untouched to game the lack of foresight of the current system. That's not in spirit of gaming. Neither on my behalf, nor as designers of the game.

    Well, g7 and 8 is very weak..... Maybe if you hadn't boosted all of those teams you would have more g11 and 12 toons and would be more competitive in your GA bracket?....

    It js very much is in the spirit of a resource management game that putting resources into unusable investments is going to cost you..... We have had TW in this game for a long time, you can't tell me you didn't know that having a bunch of fluff teams hurts you and your guild.....

    What good are those g7 and g8 toons?.... In one post, you identify them as not being part of the "usable portion of your roster", then go on to ask me how I can say you "didn't make the best use of your resources"..... Think about that for a minute....

    How does gearing things to g7-8 with stuff I already have, have to put no investment whatsoever in impact my ability to gear toons to 12? I did make best use of my resources, these 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, in fact in most cases one has no bearing on other at all..... Think about that for a minute.

    Because a lot of the gear you are using to get those toons to G8 will be needed at higher levels.....

    Nah bro. As long as you're not handing out carbantis and such, you can get a lot of toons to g7-8 without sacrificing anything at all in gearing up your more valuable toons.

    I can't think of any toons that get g8 without at least one or two pieces of important gear.... Even green hololense, blue detonators, green projectors etc often get used at higher gear levels....
  • Commander_Wolffe
    211 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    It's not just about distributing rewards.... There are lots of us who got good challenging matchups, you just don't see us here on the forums complaining....

    The ones complaining want what you have - a challenging match up.

    I don't want to fight someone extremely weak that I can easily beat. I don't want to fight someone who's so strong that I can't even put a dent in their squads. I want a challenging fight that I might win or I might lose.

  • No_Try
    3778 posts Member
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    I don't think anyone said the intent of matchmaking is to give everyone equal chance of winning..... I sure hope that isn't the intent, I'm not a participation trophy kinda guy.....

    When the pairings are this lopsided, all anybody is getting, win or lose, is a participation trophy. Sign up, post a nominal defense, maybe waste a few attacks, receive the preordained rewards in your inbox. I’m the one asking for real competition here. You’re the one who thinks we should be getting rewards just for signing up.

    Not every matchup is lobsided it just depends on who you draw..... And, as usual, it's the people that didn't manage properly that are trying the loudest...

    You are in a real competition by playing this game daily and managing and building your teams... GA is not a satellite entity that exists outside the game, it's just another way to reward players who build strong teams..... Second place rewards are the consolation prize for those who don't....

    Again, if it’s just about distributing more rewards to the people who need them the least, they could do that via the inbox, without all the rigmarole of a new game mode. The fact that they invested in a new mode suggests that they want people to engage with it and enjoy it. I’m trying to make suggestions that will make it more enjoyable for more players.

    It's not just about distributing rewards.... There are lots of us who got good challenging matchups, you just don't see us here on the forums complaining....

    I got a decent match too. But it's purely left to chance right now whether my future matchups will be so. Because we know how the matchmaking is made, it's not a secret we are speculating on.
  • qfwm2001 wrote: »
    Just have fun! People are getting way to worked up over this.

    I plan to have fun :)
  • Lumpawarump
    80 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    I was matched versus a player with almost the exact GP as I. However, we've gone about things completely differently:

    ME:
    • Arena Rank: 134
    • Fleet Rank: 151
    • G12: 30
    • GP: 3,874,772

    Opponent:
    • Arena Rank: 23
    • Fleet Rank: 3
    • G12: 84
    • GP: 3,880,220

    How is his GP the same as mine? He doesn't have mods on his toons G10 or below. In other words, his GP really only measures his top 90 toons or so. Meanwhile, he has enough G12 toons for full defense and offense squads in grand arena.

    Nice job, EA.

    How about calculating a "Grand Arena" GP based upon just your top 60 toons?
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »

    I don't think anyone said the intent of matchmaking is to give everyone equal chance of winning..... I sure hope that isn't the intent, I'm not a participation trophy kinda guy.....

    Why not? That should be the intent if it isn't currently, that's sensible design; trying to put 2 opponents with as close likelihood to %50 chance of winning on paper.

    I don't think that should be the intent at all..... Matching by straight up GP makes sense to me.... The winner will be the player that made the best use of their resources and has the better strategy, both important factors in playing this game....

    I think we made enough illustrations in the topic already. I leveled everything to max, maxed out as much abilities as possible, geared them 7&8 lowest, put maxed mods on everything. This has zero impact on the usable portion of my roster and I still have 140M credits I can't spend.

    Now can you say I didn't make best use of my resources? How so?

    However if I knew CG would take the easy route out, I would keep everything that's not of immediate use untouched to game the lack of foresight of the current system. That's not in spirit of gaming. Neither on my behalf, nor as designers of the game.

    Well, g7 and 8 is very weak..... Maybe if you hadn't boosted all of those teams you would have more g11 and 12 toons and would be more competitive in your GA bracket?....

    It js very much is in the spirit of a resource management game that putting resources into unusable investments is going to cost you..... We have had TW in this game for a long time, you can't tell me you didn't know that having a bunch of fluff teams hurts you and your guild.....

    What good are those g7 and g8 toons?.... In one post, you identify them as not being part of the "usable portion of your roster", then go on to ask me how I can say you "didn't make the best use of your resources"..... Think about that for a minute....

    How does gearing things to g7-8 with stuff I already have, have to put no investment whatsoever in impact my ability to gear toons to 12? I did make best use of my resources, these 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, in fact in most cases one has no bearing on other at all..... Think about that for a minute.

    Because a lot of the gear you are using to get those toons to G8 will be needed at higher levels.....

    Nah bro. As long as you're not handing out carbantis and such, you can get a lot of toons to g7-8 without sacrificing anything at all in gearing up your more valuable toons.

    I can't think of any toons that get g8 without at least one or two pieces of important gear.... Even green hololense, blue detonators, green projectors etc often get used at higher gear levels....

    C'mon. We both know those pieces, while they are required at higher levels, are not in any way bottleneck gear that might prevent you from getting a toon to g11 or whatever.

    Again I am not trying to complain about my matchup, I actually got a very fair matchup and I look forward to it. I also am not someone who has neglected my important teams. I am consistently a top performer in TW, finish 1st in both arenas, etc. I just happen to think that overall GP is not a good way to form matchups. It leads to lots of unequal matchups, which should not be the goal. And again, I don't believe this is just a case of resource misallocation (though I'm sure it in in some cases)--there are deeper flaws with the idea of using pure GP to match people up.
  • Metroplex79
    760 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Just stating this as fact - no subtext.

    My GP is 3.53M. My opponent is 3.52M.

    I have 45 G12 and 44 zetas.

    My opponent has 23 G12 and 25 zetas.
    I'm not your opponent, but I'm going to get steamrolled similarily. LOL!!!

    BOTH me and my opponent is 3.03M GP.

    Me:
    -0 G12
    -4 G11
    -27 G10
    -38 G9
    -47 G8
    -19 zetas

    My opponent
    -26 G12
    -16 G11
    -9 G10
    -14 G9
    -29 G8
    -27 zetas

    I have 130 7* Toons & 9 6* Toons, vs my opponent's 107 7* Toons & 6 6* Toons.

    I am clearly an "all-rounder" player vs a "powerhouse" opponent.
    Rule #55: "The riskier the road, the greater the profit."
    Rule #214: "Never begin a business transaction on an empty stomach."
    Rule #255: "A wife is a luxury, a smart accountant a necessity."

    Started mid-FEB 2017, and not trying to reach the top.
  • Ultra
    4212 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Just stating this as fact - no subtext.

    My GP is 3.53M. My opponent is 3.52M.

    I have 45 G12 and 44 zetas.

    My opponent has 23 G12 and 25 zetas.
    I'm not your opponent, but I'm going to get steamrolled similarily. LOL!!!

    BOTH me and my opponent is 3.03M GP.

    Me:
    -0 G12
    -4 G11
    -27 G10
    -38 G9
    -47 G8
    -19 zetas

    My opponent
    -26 G12
    -16 G11
    -9 G10
    -14 G9
    -29 G8
    -27 zetas

    I have 130 7* Toons & 9 6* Toons, vs my opponent's 107 7* Toons & 6 6* Toons.

    I am clearly an "all-rounder" player vs a "powerhouse" opponent.
    Collection aside, there is no reason for you to be at 0 g12 toons even while being an "All-rounder"

    If you only have 4 g11 than where does all the raid rewards and stuff for g10 to g11 to g12 that you aren't using going??

  • Kyno
    21850 posts Moderator
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »

    If you have the right toons, meaning the better defensive teams and the counters built to counter said teams, with some other good mixes built up, than you should be able to win. If this ^^ is the case and you lose, I'm not sure that is the matchmaking over user error.

    2 players can be fairly matched with GP as a consideration, and GP should be a consideration. No it should not be the only factor. But saying things like someone with revan(or X toon) should only be matched with someone else who has revan (or X toon) is a stretch.

    The way we are all matched in this game is with time (time = $$) they changed GP to exactly match " time" because it is just a value of how much investment you have put into a toon. Now if someone put that investment into CLS vs CUP, that is a players choice and they should have to deal with those consequences.

    Factors that should be considered as far as game play is concerned should follow that same line, not character specific but development specific
    I.e.

    i.e.
    - # g12 toons
    - # zetas

    Might be odd but
    - # of raids completed
    - arena wins

    Maybe some others, but IMO those are the game parameters that allow players to have "equal" development and let their choice about development help or hurt them.

    All that said, all those factors affect GP directly, which is why GP should still be a factor. Maybe not as much as they have used it, but they need to have a starting point for the grouping of players.

    I will also add, that I believe this launch is more of a soft launch of the game mode that was used to test the match making in a kind of mass open beta.

    Your first paragraph is incompatible with your upcoming sentiments. As you know this topic is about fluff our rosters contain and currently method of basing matchmaking purely on GP is completely unable to take it into consideration. Therefore it leaves it to purely chance if the matchmaking is appropriate or not.

    Agreed with all else you said. It will never be possible to adjust the algo regarding -actual usage potential of the toon- and nor desirable on my part. If I don't have Revan it's on me. Taking #of raids completed is a good idea since it takes into consideration the playing duration of the player thus indirectly causes currently useless toons to be similar.

    The only true fluff in this competition setup is ships. Everything else is choices the player could have made differently and are "fair game"
  • Kyno
    21850 posts Moderator
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Kyno, I think the issue is that you seem to be assuming that Player X and Player Y who are equal in GP have equal resources, and X may have spent those resources on maxing out TW teams while Player Y has used the same resources to be a collector and spread them out across numerous toons that are less useful for TW/GA.

    I would argue that this is not true at all--the HSTR/tank-level resources needed to max toons out are far different from the pit-raid/challenge gear level resources needed to bring toons to gear 8/9 or so. Someone in a long time HSTR guild may have the ability to g12+ dozens of toons, while a long time player without such resources will have far fewer g12 toons. In reality, it wasn't about the choice to focus on TW teams as much as it was about the resources available to those players. And of course a strong g12 toon is worth more than 100 g8 toons in GA.

    I personally have worked on competitive TW squads and I have a fair matchup, but I do not think GP is a good way to match people. I try to bring my weaker toons to g7 or so for TB purposes--I don't think this should hurt me in GA matchups. To gear these toons to this level I'm not sacrificing any useful gear that would help my TW squads, but this strategy will hurt me in the GP matchmaking system vs someone who leaves their trash toons at lvl 1 g1.

    Anyway, I agree with your suggestions on using number of g12 toons, raid completions, etc. I also agree matchmaking shouldn't be based on WHICH g12 toons you have, just how many.

    Nope. I am saying that if they have used equal resources and player X was focused on TW style teams and counter teams and has been competitively focused in that way, his choices should give him the advantage he has earned. If player y has chosen a different path because they like raids or other game modes then they will suffer in this game mode, and that is fair.
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Just stating this as fact - no subtext.

    My GP is 3.53M. My opponent is 3.52M.

    I have 45 G12 and 44 zetas.

    My opponent has 23 G12 and 25 zetas.
    I'm not your opponent, but I'm going to get steamrolled similarily. LOL!!!

    BOTH me and my opponent is 3.03M GP.

    Me:
    -0 G12
    -4 G11
    -27 G10
    -38 G9
    -47 G8
    -19 zetas

    My opponent
    -26 G12
    -16 G11
    -9 G10
    -14 G9
    -29 G8
    -27 zetas

    I have 130 7* Toons & 9 6* Toons, vs my opponent's 107 7* Toons & 6 6* Toons.

    I am clearly an "all-rounder" player vs a "powerhouse" opponent.
    Collection aside, there is no reason for you to be at 0 g12 toons even while being an "All-rounder"

    If you only have 4 g11 than where does all the raid rewards and stuff for g10 to g11 to g12 that you aren't using going??
    It is my fault, I won't dispute that fact. I stayed in an ok-to-mediocre Guild waaaaay too long. Meaning not able to do Heroic Rancor or AAT Raids. It was growing, I thought we'd move up faster. Eventually I rose to being in the Top 3 of the Guild, and saw the light and left for a better Guild.

    At the moment, I'm sure I can raise two (maybe three) to G12 for sure. But I don't have a stockpile of the good gold gear pieces/salvage.

    My roster is like a big pile of slow moving lava. LOL!!!
    Rule #55: "The riskier the road, the greater the profit."
    Rule #214: "Never begin a business transaction on an empty stomach."
    Rule #255: "A wife is a luxury, a smart accountant a necessity."

    Started mid-FEB 2017, and not trying to reach the top.
  • Kyno
    21850 posts Moderator
    Liath wrote: »
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    That comment was made in response to somebody complaining that the guy he attacked in arena was somehow cheating since his team with a lower GP won. Raw GP means nothing in the context of that thread. Obviously it has an impact in other areas of the game, even before GA.

    In the context of one teams GP vs another.

    GP as a measure of how much you have developed your roster is essentially 100% accurate. Each action you take in development gives and equal point for that same action on any toon. It's your choice where to put it and there for you are made or broken by your development choices since someone with the same GP has invested the same number of "points". In theory, I'm not saying this is the best way, just a really good generalization.
  • Kyno
    21850 posts Moderator
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    Please see above comment.
  • No_Try
    3778 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Kyno wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »

    If you have the right toons, meaning the better defensive teams and the counters built to counter said teams, with some other good mixes built up, than you should be able to win. If this ^^ is the case and you lose, I'm not sure that is the matchmaking over user error.

    2 players can be fairly matched with GP as a consideration, and GP should be a consideration. No it should not be the only factor. But saying things like someone with revan(or X toon) should only be matched with someone else who has revan (or X toon) is a stretch.

    The way we are all matched in this game is with time (time = $$) they changed GP to exactly match " time" because it is just a value of how much investment you have put into a toon. Now if someone put that investment into CLS vs CUP, that is a players choice and they should have to deal with those consequences.

    Factors that should be considered as far as game play is concerned should follow that same line, not character specific but development specific
    I.e.

    i.e.
    - # g12 toons
    - # zetas

    Might be odd but
    - # of raids completed
    - arena wins

    Maybe some others, but IMO those are the game parameters that allow players to have "equal" development and let their choice about development help or hurt them.

    All that said, all those factors affect GP directly, which is why GP should still be a factor. Maybe not as much as they have used it, but they need to have a starting point for the grouping of players.

    I will also add, that I believe this launch is more of a soft launch of the game mode that was used to test the match making in a kind of mass open beta.

    Your first paragraph is incompatible with your upcoming sentiments. As you know this topic is about fluff our rosters contain and currently method of basing matchmaking purely on GP is completely unable to take it into consideration. Therefore it leaves it to purely chance if the matchmaking is appropriate or not.

    Agreed with all else you said. It will never be possible to adjust the algo regarding -actual usage potential of the toon- and nor desirable on my part. If I don't have Revan it's on me. Taking #of raids completed is a good idea since it takes into consideration the playing duration of the player thus indirectly causes currently useless toons to be similar.

    The only true fluff in this competition setup is ships. Everything else is choices the player could have made differently and are "fair game"

    I don't agree. Are you saying I should have rather gamed the system with keeping my gp lower without effecting the usable portion of my roster? Knowing how the current system works that's what most of players will try to do in the future. There's most definitely fluff in everyone's roster to differing degrees.

    It's the designer's duty provide a fair system to the players and they have to do so in a retrospective view which considers/respects how their previous designs suggest the game should be played.

    Now we have a game mode which suggests forward movement at all costs and 2 modes which suggests the exact reverse of it. How is that good design, how is that fair?
  • Kyno
    21850 posts Moderator
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.
  • LukeDukem8
    384 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Liath wrote: »
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    That comment was made in response to somebody complaining that the guy he attacked in arena was somehow cheating since his team with a lower GP won. Raw GP means nothing in the context of that thread. Obviously it has an impact in other areas of the game, even before GA.

    Im comparing apples to apples , if raw gp has no bearing on an arena matchup. why does it in the grand arena matchup? If using raw gp to compare 2 teams is not right , how us it right fir comparing 2 collections. I think this is the perfect example of why raw gp is useless when matching up players

    Its about comparing the inventory of two players..not someone's best team vs someone else's best team. Arena rank is solely based on 1 team someone can put together.
  • Macattack9 wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »

    I don't think anyone said the intent of matchmaking is to give everyone equal chance of winning..... I sure hope that isn't the intent, I'm not a participation trophy kinda guy.....

    Why not? That should be the intent if it isn't currently, that's sensible design; trying to put 2 opponents with as close likelihood to %50 chance of winning on paper.

    I don't think that should be the intent at all..... Matching by straight up GP makes sense to me.... The winner will be the player that made the best use of their resources and has the better strategy, both important factors in playing this game....

    I think we made enough illustrations in the topic already. I leveled everything to max, maxed out as much abilities as possible, geared them 7&8 lowest, put maxed mods on everything. This has zero impact on the usable portion of my roster and I still have 140M credits I can't spend.

    Now can you say I didn't make best use of my resources? How so?

    However if I knew CG would take the easy route out, I would keep everything that's not of immediate use untouched to game the lack of foresight of the current system. That's not in spirit of gaming. Neither on my behalf, nor as designers of the game.

    Well, g7 and 8 is very weak..... Maybe if you hadn't boosted all of those teams you would have more g11 and 12 toons and would be more competitive in your GA bracket?....

    It js very much is in the spirit of a resource management game that putting resources into unusable investments is going to cost you..... We have had TW in this game for a long time, you can't tell me you didn't know that having a bunch of fluff teams hurts you and your guild.....

    What good are those g7 and g8 toons?.... In one post, you identify them as not being part of the "usable portion of your roster", then go on to ask me how I can say you "didn't make the best use of your resources"..... Think about that for a minute....

    How does gearing things to g7-8 with stuff I already have, have to put no investment whatsoever in impact my ability to gear toons to 12? I did make best use of my resources, these 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, in fact in most cases one has no bearing on other at all..... Think about that for a minute.

    Because a lot of the gear you are using to get those toons to G8 will be needed at higher levels.....

    Nah bro. As long as you're not handing out carbantis and such, you can get a lot of toons to g7-8 without sacrificing anything at all in gearing up your more valuable toons.

    I can't think of any toons that get g8 without at least one or two pieces of important gear.... Even green hololense, blue detonators, green projectors etc often get used at higher gear levels....

    C'mon. We both know those pieces, while they are required at higher levels, are not in any way bottleneck gear that might prevent you from getting a toon to g11 or whatever.

    Again I am not trying to complain about my matchup, I actually got a very fair matchup and I look forward to it. I also am not someone who has neglected my important teams. I am consistently a top performer in TW, finish 1st in both arenas, etc. I just happen to think that overall GP is not a good way to form matchups. It leads to lots of unequal matchups, which should not be the goal. And again, I don't believe this is just a case of resource misallocation (though I'm sure it in in some cases)--there are deeper flaws with the idea of using pure GP to match people up.

    I see them in the request section in my guild all the time.... Especially the blue detonators and green hololenses...... Also, let's not even speak of the credits wasted to boost those toons to get the gear on them... And all of those ability mats as well....
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Completely agree....
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