GP Matchmaking & “Fluff”

Replies

  • Kyno wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Kyno, I think the issue is that you seem to be assuming that Player X and Player Y who are equal in GP have equal resources, and X may have spent those resources on maxing out TW teams while Player Y has used the same resources to be a collector and spread them out across numerous toons that are less useful for TW/GA.

    I would argue that this is not true at all--the HSTR/tank-level resources needed to max toons out are far different from the pit-raid/challenge gear level resources needed to bring toons to gear 8/9 or so. Someone in a long time HSTR guild may have the ability to g12+ dozens of toons, while a long time player without such resources will have far fewer g12 toons. In reality, it wasn't about the choice to focus on TW teams as much as it was about the resources available to those players. And of course a strong g12 toon is worth more than 100 g8 toons in GA.

    I personally have worked on competitive TW squads and I have a fair matchup, but I do not think GP is a good way to match people. I try to bring my weaker toons to g7 or so for TB purposes--I don't think this should hurt me in GA matchups. To gear these toons to this level I'm not sacrificing any useful gear that would help my TW squads, but this strategy will hurt me in the GP matchmaking system vs someone who leaves their trash toons at lvl 1 g1.

    Anyway, I agree with your suggestions on using number of g12 toons, raid completions, etc. I also agree matchmaking shouldn't be based on WHICH g12 toons you have, just how many.

    Nope. I am saying that if they have used equal resources and player X was focused on TW style teams and counter teams and has been competitively focused in that way, his choices should give him the advantage he has earned. If player y has chosen a different path because they like raids or other game modes then they will suffer in this game mode, and that is fair.

    I am saying that those 2 players with equal GP have NOT used equal resources, that is the difference. It's not that one person has used their resources differently, it's that they have had significantly fewer resources to start with. Obviously there is a big component of intelligently using your resources, but that's not the whole story if you're going by strict GP. Also, ships is a big deal as it can be over 1/3 of your GP.
  • Dryff
    614 posts Member
    @Vicarious I think your point is entirely valid. My brother and I started at nearly the same time, yet his GP is 500K higher...why? Because he pushed all of his characters to G7 to maximize returns on TW. I imagine he will struggle mightily in Grand Arena.

    I will definitely not be gearing or leveling any more characters if they aren't ready for G11/G12 unless the system changes. Also will be removing the mods on everything I won't be using to push my GP down.

    How does ship GP factor into this?
  • Nauros
    2724 posts Member
    .
    Kyno wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    That comment was made in response to somebody complaining that the guy he attacked in arena was somehow cheating since his team with a lower GP won. Raw GP means nothing in the context of that thread. Obviously it has an impact in other areas of the game, even before GA.

    In the context of one teams GP vs another.

    GP as a measure of how much you have developed your roster is essentially 100% accurate. Each action you take in development gives and equal point for that same action on any toon. It's your choice where to put it and there for you are made or broken by your development choices since someone with the same GP has invested the same number of "points". In theory, I'm not saying this is the best way, just a really good generalization.

    Except it isn't, as fundamentally different actions can lead to the same value. For example, a newer player who managed to get into a hstr guild early on can have similar GP to an old player who spent time in a guild of friends who took longer to beat hstr, and the pieces making the GP will be vastly different. It's not a matter of different allocation of the same resources, it's a matter of completely different resources that happen to have assigned similar numerical value. A zeta has more utility than a number of "normal" ability upgrades with the same GP value, and it's not a matter of choice but availability. The same goes for a G12 piece and a number of low gear pieces. Again, no choice, as the two mostly come from different sources. That's why the number of zetas, 7* characters, G12 characters and so on is a much better indicator of progress than GP. If the matchmaking was based on that, you would be completely right and it would really be only a matter of choice.
    Revive the stores, the game needs it.
  • No_Try
    3531 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    That comment was made in response to somebody complaining that the guy he attacked in arena was somehow cheating since his team with a lower GP won. Raw GP means nothing in the context of that thread. Obviously it has an impact in other areas of the game, even before GA.

    In the context of one teams GP vs another.

    GP as a measure of how much you have developed your roster is essentially 100% accurate. Each action you take in development gives and equal point for that same action on any toon. It's your choice where to put it and there for you are made or broken by your development choices since someone with the same GP has invested the same number of "points". In theory, I'm not saying this is the best way, just a really good generalization.

    This is only true if you consider each gear level to be equal. In reality the later gear levels matter so much more and are much more costly to acquire. Someone who has one g12 toon may have the same GP as someone with 12 g2 toons, but the former has invested much more in the way of game resources.
  • I’m not going to read through all of these so this may have already been said, but the simplest solution to creating competitive TW and grand arena is to do a formula based off the weighted average gear and zeta count. The reason I think mods should not factor into any equation is because it can be manipulated by the player. This way, someone can’t artificially depress their GP by removing mods from unused toons that would otherwise be equipped for TB purposes.

    Just get mods out of the equation and problem solved.
  • No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Fluffing your entire roster with mods is only a bad choice in terms of GA, and I guess TW though the matchmaking there is more obscure. What people are arguing is that it shouldn't hurt you to upgrade your lower characters, when you aren't doing so at the expense of important toons. Under the current system it makes sense to take all mods off your g8 and lower characters leading up to GA roster lock, then reequip those mods for TB deploy. I argue that is a bad system, you shouldn't be hurt for upgrades. The system should matchmake based on true strength, not fluff (and once again, I am talking about fluff that does not affect your ability to upgrade important GA/TW toons, so you aren't "choosing" fluff over valuable teams).
  • Kyno
    21287 posts Moderator
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Kyno, I think the issue is that you seem to be assuming that Player X and Player Y who are equal in GP have equal resources, and X may have spent those resources on maxing out TW teams while Player Y has used the same resources to be a collector and spread them out across numerous toons that are less useful for TW/GA.

    I would argue that this is not true at all--the HSTR/tank-level resources needed to max toons out are far different from the pit-raid/challenge gear level resources needed to bring toons to gear 8/9 or so. Someone in a long time HSTR guild may have the ability to g12+ dozens of toons, while a long time player without such resources will have far fewer g12 toons. In reality, it wasn't about the choice to focus on TW teams as much as it was about the resources available to those players. And of course a strong g12 toon is worth more than 100 g8 toons in GA.

    I personally have worked on competitive TW squads and I have a fair matchup, but I do not think GP is a good way to match people. I try to bring my weaker toons to g7 or so for TB purposes--I don't think this should hurt me in GA matchups. To gear these toons to this level I'm not sacrificing any useful gear that would help my TW squads, but this strategy will hurt me in the GP matchmaking system vs someone who leaves their trash toons at lvl 1 g1.

    Anyway, I agree with your suggestions on using number of g12 toons, raid completions, etc. I also agree matchmaking shouldn't be based on WHICH g12 toons you have, just how many.

    Nope. I am saying that if they have used equal resources and player X was focused on TW style teams and counter teams and has been competitively focused in that way, his choices should give him the advantage he has earned. If player y has chosen a different path because they like raids or other game modes then they will suffer in this game mode, and that is fair.

    I am saying that those 2 players with equal GP have NOT used equal resources, that is the difference. It's not that one person has used their resources differently, it's that they have had significantly fewer resources to start with. Obviously there is a big component of intelligently using your resources, but that's not the whole story if you're going by strict GP. Also, ships is a big deal as it can be over 1/3 of your GP.

    If a player was able to zeta chewie right after getting him and has the same GP as someone without chewie but chose to level up and add abilities to toons they are not really using, that is a players choice to do so. That may put them at a disadvantage in a competitive game mode like TW and GA, I'm not sure they shouldnt have to suffer the consequences of those choices, in this game mode. They made those choices and could have focused some of those resources elsewhere and be at a lower GP, but have a more effective roster.

    Smart development over pumping numbers up is what gives a competitive edge. Players that have developed that competitive edge should be rewarded as such.
  • Kyno
    21287 posts Moderator
    Nauros wrote: »
    .
    Kyno wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    That comment was made in response to somebody complaining that the guy he attacked in arena was somehow cheating since his team with a lower GP won. Raw GP means nothing in the context of that thread. Obviously it has an impact in other areas of the game, even before GA.

    In the context of one teams GP vs another.

    GP as a measure of how much you have developed your roster is essentially 100% accurate. Each action you take in development gives and equal point for that same action on any toon. It's your choice where to put it and there for you are made or broken by your development choices since someone with the same GP has invested the same number of "points". In theory, I'm not saying this is the best way, just a really good generalization.

    Except it isn't, as fundamentally different actions can lead to the same value. For example, a newer player who managed to get into a hstr guild early on can have similar GP to an old player who spent time in a guild of friends who took longer to beat hstr, and the pieces making the GP will be vastly different. It's not a matter of different allocation of the same resources, it's a matter of completely different resources that happen to have assigned similar numerical value. A zeta has more utility than a number of "normal" ability upgrades with the same GP value, and it's not a matter of choice but availability. The same goes for a G12 piece and a number of low gear pieces. Again, no choice, as the two mostly come from different sources. That's why the number of zetas, 7* characters, G12 characters and so on is a much better indicator of progress than GP. If the matchmaking was based on that, you would be completely right and it would really be only a matter of choice.

    But it is a matter of different allocation, in this case time. A more causal older player being pinned up against a more focused and actionable roster of a newer player is a fair match up. The older player could have a more effective roster had they made the right choices over time, again I'm just saying players are accountable for the development choices they have made and the dev team should not be in charge of matching us up in a way that intentionally only places players against players who have the same development. Let the game mode separate us out as we develop now knowing what we know.
  • Kyno
    21287 posts Moderator
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    That comment was made in response to somebody complaining that the guy he attacked in arena was somehow cheating since his team with a lower GP won. Raw GP means nothing in the context of that thread. Obviously it has an impact in other areas of the game, even before GA.

    In the context of one teams GP vs another.

    GP as a measure of how much you have developed your roster is essentially 100% accurate. Each action you take in development gives and equal point for that same action on any toon. It's your choice where to put it and there for you are made or broken by your development choices since someone with the same GP has invested the same number of "points". In theory, I'm not saying this is the best way, just a really good generalization.

    This is only true if you consider each gear level to be equal. In reality the later gear levels matter so much more and are much more costly to acquire. Someone who has one g12 toon may have the same GP as someone with 12 g2 toons, but the former has invested much more in the way of game resources.

    Using your resources to bring a bunch of toons to level 50 vs bringing the right toons to 85 is a player choice and shows what a players mindset is when developing. That mindset will let them be competitive against others or not, but it's all based on their choices. Dont regret the past, build up for the future.
  • No_Try
    3531 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    Here is what all modern economic theories and systems are based on:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.
  • Rebel_yell
    928 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Kyno wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Kyno, I think the issue is that you seem to be assuming that Player X and Player Y who are equal in GP have equal resources, and X may have spent those resources on maxing out TW teams while Player Y has used the same resources to be a collector and spread them out across numerous toons that are less useful for TW/GA.

    I would argue that this is not true at all--the HSTR/tank-level resources needed to max toons out are far different from the pit-raid/challenge gear level resources needed to bring toons to gear 8/9 or so. Someone in a long time HSTR guild may have the ability to g12+ dozens of toons, while a long time player without such resources will have far fewer g12 toons. In reality, it wasn't about the choice to focus on TW teams as much as it was about the resources available to those players. And of course a strong g12 toon is worth more than 100 g8 toons in GA.

    I personally have worked on competitive TW squads and I have a fair matchup, but I do not think GP is a good way to match people. I try to bring my weaker toons to g7 or so for TB purposes--I don't think this should hurt me in GA matchups. To gear these toons to this level I'm not sacrificing any useful gear that would help my TW squads, but this strategy will hurt me in the GP matchmaking system vs someone who leaves their trash toons at lvl 1 g1.

    Anyway, I agree with your suggestions on using number of g12 toons, raid completions, etc. I also agree matchmaking shouldn't be based on WHICH g12 toons you have, just how many.

    Nope. I am saying that if they have used equal resources and player X was focused on TW style teams and counter teams and has been competitively focused in that way, his choices should give him the advantage he has earned. If player y has chosen a different path because they like raids or other game modes then they will suffer in this game mode, and that is fair.

    I am saying that those 2 players with equal GP have NOT used equal resources, that is the difference. It's not that one person has used their resources differently, it's that they have had significantly fewer resources to start with. Obviously there is a big component of intelligently using your resources, but that's not the whole story if you're going by strict GP. Also, ships is a big deal as it can be over 1/3 of your GP.

    If a player was able to zeta chewie right after getting him and has the same GP as someone without chewie but chose to level up and add abilities to toons they are not really using, that is a players choice to do so. That may put them at a disadvantage in a competitive game mode like TW and GA, I'm not sure they shouldnt have to suffer the consequences of those choices, in this game mode. They made those choices and could have focused some of those resources elsewhere and be at a lower GP, but have a more effective roster.

    Smart development over pumping numbers up is what gives a competitive edge. Players that have developed that competitive edge should be rewarded as such.

    From a cursory view, this isn’t true. Long term players that don’t spend or spend little can still have a ton of 7 star level 85 characters. These two elements have little impact on competitiveness but inflate GP all the same. So you’re penalizing that player in a matchup versus someone who has simply max geared and zeta’d more characters, thus having a similar GP but competitive advantage in PvP that requires multiple teams. In other words, you’re penalizing long term players for simply playing the game.

    Edit - stars and level have little to do with resource management because shards are effectively free and credits are in abundance for long termers
  • No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Kyno, I think the issue is that you seem to be assuming that Player X and Player Y who are equal in GP have equal resources, and X may have spent those resources on maxing out TW teams while Player Y has used the same resources to be a collector and spread them out across numerous toons that are less useful for TW/GA.

    I would argue that this is not true at all--the HSTR/tank-level resources needed to max toons out are far different from the pit-raid/challenge gear level resources needed to bring toons to gear 8/9 or so. Someone in a long time HSTR guild may have the ability to g12+ dozens of toons, while a long time player without such resources will have far fewer g12 toons. In reality, it wasn't about the choice to focus on TW teams as much as it was about the resources available to those players. And of course a strong g12 toon is worth more than 100 g8 toons in GA.

    I personally have worked on competitive TW squads and I have a fair matchup, but I do not think GP is a good way to match people. I try to bring my weaker toons to g7 or so for TB purposes--I don't think this should hurt me in GA matchups. To gear these toons to this level I'm not sacrificing any useful gear that would help my TW squads, but this strategy will hurt me in the GP matchmaking system vs someone who leaves their trash toons at lvl 1 g1.

    Anyway, I agree with your suggestions on using number of g12 toons, raid completions, etc. I also agree matchmaking shouldn't be based on WHICH g12 toons you have, just how many.

    Nope. I am saying that if they have used equal resources and player X was focused on TW style teams and counter teams and has been competitively focused in that way, his choices should give him the advantage he has earned. If player y has chosen a different path because they like raids or other game modes then they will suffer in this game mode, and that is fair.

    I am saying that those 2 players with equal GP have NOT used equal resources, that is the difference. It's not that one person has used their resources differently, it's that they have had significantly fewer resources to start with. Obviously there is a big component of intelligently using your resources, but that's not the whole story if you're going by strict GP. Also, ships is a big deal as it can be over 1/3 of your GP.

    If a player was able to zeta chewie right after getting him and has the same GP as someone without chewie but chose to level up and add abilities to toons they are not really using, that is a players choice to do so. That may put them at a disadvantage in a competitive game mode like TW and GA, I'm not sure they shouldnt have to suffer the consequences of those choices, in this game mode. They made those choices and could have focused some of those resources elsewhere and be at a lower GP, but have a more effective roster.

    Smart development over pumping numbers up is what gives a competitive edge. Players that have developed that competitive edge should be rewarded as such.

    Again you're making it sound like a choice between smart development and pumping numbers, as if people are using the same resources but choosing a different path. Your example of one person who unlocks and zetas chewy versus another person who didn't get chewy but levels some lower toons is perfect. One person has spent high level gear and a zeta on chewy, while the other person (who didn't have a chance at chewy) spent low level blue/green gear and blue and green ability mats on a few toons, but they ended up with the same increase in GP. Nauros's post above sums it up well...GP increase does not equal value in game resources spent.

    And there are clearly better ways to determine matchups, which you have even supported earlier in this thread! Not sure why you're so single minded on defending the GP thing.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    That comment was made in response to somebody complaining that the guy he attacked in arena was somehow cheating since his team with a lower GP won. Raw GP means nothing in the context of that thread. Obviously it has an impact in other areas of the game, even before GA.

    In the context of one teams GP vs another.

    GP as a measure of how much you have developed your roster is essentially 100% accurate. Each action you take in development gives and equal point for that same action on any toon. It's your choice where to put it and there for you are made or broken by your development choices since someone with the same GP has invested the same number of "points". In theory, I'm not saying this is the best way, just a really good generalization.

    This is only true if you consider each gear level to be equal. In reality the later gear levels matter so much more and are much more costly to acquire. Someone who has one g12 toon may have the same GP as someone with 12 g2 toons, but the former has invested much more in the way of game resources.

    Using your resources to bring a bunch of toons to level 50 vs bringing the right toons to 85 is a player choice and shows what a players mindset is when developing. That mindset will let them be competitive against others or not, but it's all based on their choices. Dont regret the past, build up for the future.

    Yes, that is a good example of a player choice that should matter, because credits are a resource that is spent across all levels up to 85. However you didn't address the GP equivalence of 1 g12 vs 12 g2 toons. Each gear level is not equal, they require different materials that are progressively harder to acquire. So why should they be considered equal in the eyes of GP/matchmaking?
  • No_Try
    3531 posts Member
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.
  • Here's a simple example as a thought experiment. Two players start at the same time, get in the same level of guild, expend the same energy on the game, have the exact same mods and top level toons and TW squads. However, one player has thrown a bunch of blue and green ability mats, and blue and green gear that they have thousands of, and extra mods that would otherwise be thrown away, onto their lower level toons. They have literally sacrificed nothing in terms of gearing other toons, just throwing resources they have thousands of onto low level toons. Doing this inflates their GP and they get a worse matchup in GA. Do you think that is fair? It's not a matter of poorly allocating resources, just one person was too lazy to build their GP a bit to help their guild in TB.
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    But if you have an abundance of those resources then the calculation as to whether you use them is different. Plus, players didn’t have a choice at the time. TB was launched first so people fluffed. Then TW came out and people started to think diff of that strategy. Then grand arena comes out after people had already spent years doing things a certain way and all of a sudden find themselves at a disadvantage for simply allocating resources for which they had an abundance and no information that would make that a bad decision. Plus, stars, level, and mods all factor in to the calculation. Stars and level are a natural part of the game and mods can be manipulated by the player. That’s why those 3 things make no sense being in the calculation.
  • No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....
  • Macattack9 wrote: »
    Here's a simple example as a thought experiment. Two players start at the same time, get in the same level of guild, expend the same energy on the game, have the exact same mods and top level toons and TW squads. However, one player has thrown a bunch of blue and green ability mats, and blue and green gear that they have thousands of, and extra mods that would otherwise be thrown away, onto their lower level toons. They have literally sacrificed nothing in terms of gearing other toons, just throwing resources they have thousands of onto low level toons. Doing this inflates their GP and they get a worse matchup in GA. Do you think that is fair? It's not a matter of poorly allocating resources, just one person was too lazy to build their GP a bit to help their guild in TB.

    Bingo. Plus it goes further than that. 1 player decided to spend everything on zetas where another 7* all toons and ships in that store. 1 player helped the guild, the other themselves. Now the game penalizes the guild contributor.
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    Sigh. But comparing 2 people who both complete all combat missions, and one person has fluffed their lower level toons and the other hasn't, the person who has fluffed is helping their guild.
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Here's a simple example as a thought experiment. Two players start at the same time, get in the same level of guild, expend the same energy on the game, have the exact same mods and top level toons and TW squads. However, one player has thrown a bunch of blue and green ability mats, and blue and green gear that they have thousands of, and extra mods that would otherwise be thrown away, onto their lower level toons. They have literally sacrificed nothing in terms of gearing other toons, just throwing resources they have thousands of onto low level toons. Doing this inflates their GP and they get a worse matchup in GA. Do you think that is fair? It's not a matter of poorly allocating resources, just one person was too lazy to build their GP a bit to help their guild in TB.

    Bingo. Plus it goes further than that. 1 player decided to spend everything on zetas where another 7* all toons and ships in that store. 1 player helped the guild, the other themselves. Now the game penalizes the guild contributor.

    How exactly did that player help their guild?
  • No_Try
    3531 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    This will circle us back to what I've been writing in response to you and fluff which is what this topic is about. You are talking about two choices as if they are directly opposite to eachother. I did my best to illustrate to you they aren't. I did both of these choices without one effecting the other until CG decided it does.

    Oh I'm almost always the top contender in TB...and TW within my guild btw when I have the time to do it.
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    The resources to G12 and the resources to fluff are mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously because 1 doesn’t interfere with the other. Getting to 7* level 85, G8, with abilities leveled up to 4 and 5* mods does not negatively impact my G12, zeta progression on my CM clearing teams.
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Here's a simple example as a thought experiment. Two players start at the same time, get in the same level of guild, expend the same energy on the game, have the exact same mods and top level toons and TW squads. However, one player has thrown a bunch of blue and green ability mats, and blue and green gear that they have thousands of, and extra mods that would otherwise be thrown away, onto their lower level toons. They have literally sacrificed nothing in terms of gearing other toons, just throwing resources they have thousands of onto low level toons. Doing this inflates their GP and they get a worse matchup in GA. Do you think that is fair? It's not a matter of poorly allocating resources, just one person was too lazy to build their GP a bit to help their guild in TB.

    Bingo. Plus it goes further than that. 1 player decided to spend everything on zetas where another 7* all toons and ships in that store. 1 player helped the guild, the other themselves. Now the game penalizes the guild contributor.

    How exactly did that player help their guild?

    Filling platoons
  • Kyno wrote: »

    Using your resources to bring a bunch of toons to level 50 vs bringing the right toons to 85 is a player choice and shows what a players mindset is when developing. That mindset will let them be competitive against others or not, but it's all based on their choices. Dont regret the past, build up for the future.

    Ah, but we should always level toons to level 50, at least, because that is when we can use them for mod storage, which is all a lot of toons are good for. If there was no cap on mod inventory, or it was considerably higher, a lot of people would have a lot less leveled up toons.

    Carry on.
  • No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    This will circle us back to what I've been writing in response to you and fluff which is what this topic is about. You are talking about two choices as if they are directly opposite to eachother. I did my best to illustrate to you they aren't. I did both of these choices without one effecting the other until CG decided it does.

    Oh I'm almost always the top contender in TB...and TW within my guild btw when I have the time to do it.

    How exactly do you have four strong light side and dark side teams (not to mention special missions teams), and still figure you will struggle with grand arena?

  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    The resources to G12 and the resources to fluff are mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously because 1 doesn’t interfere with the other. Getting to 7* level 85, G8, with abilities leveled up to 4 and 5* mods does not negatively impact my G12, zeta progression on my CM clearing teams.

    I disagree..... I can't think of a toon that doesnt require some important gear to reach g8....
  • Yeah this is a disappointing matching system. I'm 4.3m GP so is my opponent

    He has 1 more toon unlocked than me - Revan.

    I have 36 G12 he has 60 G12

    I have all my toons leveled to 85 abilities to level 7 and geared to g7-8. Outside my core squads this leveling and gearing has been done with with surplus materials eg I have over 1k purple ability mats right now and I just don't have anyone to put them on.

    He has about 20 toons not leveled or geared at all and many gaps in ability mats

    Not begrudging my opponent for his work - it's well done. But I also can't unequip and reduce my GP to get a more realistic match.

    I will be trounced no matter my personal skill level and that's not enjoyable at all.

    This is a fail grade for matchmaking - it's not an even match where the best player wins. It's lopsided in the extreme and only provides discouragement for me.

    Make the matchmaking about similar collections using comparitive metrics in addition to GP and you will see matches between equally developed players and significantly more enjoyment for all.
    | ANZGC | Exile |
Sign In or Register to comment.