Grand Arena Scoring Hide Suggestion

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Just a suggestion, keep the opponents score hidden until you have completed the round. The current visibility of scoring provides an advantage to the player that waits the longest to attack so they can take risks if needed, such as with undersized teams to score to win.

Replies

  • Kyno
    18102 posts Moderator
    That's part of the strategy. A little bit playing chicken a little bit playing the points game.
  • So if you don’t have RL obligations in the last 30 minutes of scoring I guess you have the best strategy.
  • Kyno
    18102 posts Moderator
    That's how "playing chicken" works.

    I have not had anyone wait that long yet.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    That's how "playing chicken" works.

    I have not had anyone wait that long yet.

    You're right on the first part.

    Almost every opponent is waiting until the last few hours on me and it's so aggravating lol.
  • Eddiemundie
    586 posts Member
    edited January 4
    Kyno wrote: »
    That's how "playing chicken" works.

    I have not had anyone wait that long yet.

    Oh my opponent is only attacking me now. Right after i cleared the board about 10min ago. Of course i was waiting too, but it’s 1230am now.

    I said it before and i’ll say it again, just hide the fricking points. It’s not strategy if your opponent is forever disadvantaged by timezone. And if GA cycles don’t rotate through different timezones, it is plain unfair to those who live where GA ends at 2-6am.

    Oh and maybe your opponents didnt wait that long because u know, perhaps GA ends at 5am for them so they don’t have much of a choice? Nice try.
  • How is waiting until the end a strategy? Shouldn't you be trying to clear the opponent's side and get as many points as possible doing so? What the other guy is (not) doing has no bearing on trying to do your best.
    Ally Code 766-465-766 swgoh.gg/u/trystansr/collection/
  • Kyno
    18102 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    That's how "playing chicken" works.

    I have not had anyone wait that long yet.

    Oh my opponent is only attacking me now. Right after i cleared the board about 10min ago. Of course i was waiting too, but it’s 1230am now.

    I said it before and i’ll say it again, just hide the fricking points. It’s not strategy if your opponent is forever disadvantaged by timezone. And if GA cycles don’t rotate through different timezones, it is plain unfair to those who live where GA ends at 2-6am.

    Oh and maybe your opponents didnt wait that long because u know, perhaps GA ends at 5am for them so they don’t have much of a choice? Nice try.

    There is always a choice. Yes it is a strategy, just because one person may not be able to utilize it due to external factors doesnt change that fact.
    How is waiting until the end a strategy? Shouldn't you be trying to clear the opponent's side and get as many points as possible doing so? What the other guy is (not) doing has no bearing on trying to do your best.

    I will generally wait, but slowly clear out the more difficult teams. Saving the "easier" ones in case I dont clear on the first try to maybe make up points. But if you want to wait and see how your opponent does, that can be helpful. There is much less stress if they hit one or multiple 2s or possibly a 3.

    First focus should always be a clean wins, but if I need the extra point or 2, i will go in with a man down when i can. I wouldnt normally do that if i didnt know if would give me a win. The risk vs reward is not great enough to do that for "no reason".
  • How about a 7???q7tp3tnnkebr.png
  • How is waiting until the end a strategy? Shouldn't you be trying to clear the opponent's side and get as many points as possible doing so? What the other guy is (not) doing has no bearing on trying to do your best.

    What the other guy does absolutely impacts what I will do. Winning a match at 55 banners is much easier than winning a match at 60 banners. If you know exactly how many points you need, it makes it easier to decide if you want to 4v5 a team or use a team that regains Protection or whatever. A lot of these matchups come down to just a few points, and these things matter. All you need to do is clear and the points don’t matter? Use a suicide IPD. Better not do that if you are needing near max banners though.
  • And yes, it is absolutely unfair if “playing chicken” is meant to be part of the strategy. What if GA is at 4 am for you? @Kyno I know you’ve argued that GA has to be 24 hours to accomodate everyone. How can you make that argument and then turn around here and admit that attacking last is a good strategy but defend forcing people to attack at a certain hour like it’s an arena payout?
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    A 12 hour window would impact far more people and more meaningfully than the game of chicken.

  • What the other guy does absolutely impacts what I will do. Winning a match at 55 banners is much easier than winning a match at 60 banners...

    Sure it is. You should be trying for the 60 no matter what though - letting your opponent dictate your moves seems to be handing control of the battle over to him, no?

    Seems the argument boils down to "I want my opponent to make his moves first so that I can slack off if he makes a mistake." I'm sure he's thinking the same thing - so I guess it is a game of chicken.

    In your scenario, maybe you need 54 to win. If you can get 60, shouldn't you be going for 60 anyways? Either you get it or you don't - it's not like a raid where you can retreat and try again.
    Ally Code 766-465-766 swgoh.gg/u/trystansr/collection/
  • Kyno
    18102 posts Moderator
    And yes, it is absolutely unfair if “playing chicken” is meant to be part of the strategy. What if GA is at 4 am for you? Kyno I know you’ve argued that GA has to be 24 hours to accomodate everyone. How can you make that argument and then turn around here and admit that attacking last is a good strategy but defend forcing people to attack at a certain hour like it’s an arena payout?

    Because anything can be a strategy, it doesnt mean it's an absolute win or anything like that. If you set a good defense, your opponent shouldnt be able to win with less than a full team.
  • Aim for 60 in regular, 64 in fleet. If you can do under-manned, get the extra. Don't settle for less than 60. Then no matter what, your opponent has to essentially be perfect to beat your score. Doesn't matter if he goes first if you set the bar unbelievably high. It's not like you can pull weaker squads off defence by then anyway.
  • Liath
    2777 posts Member

    What the other guy does absolutely impacts what I will do. Winning a match at 55 banners is much easier than winning a match at 60 banners...

    Sure it is. You should be trying for the 60 no matter what though - letting your opponent dictate your moves seems to be handing control of the battle over to him, no?

    Seems the argument boils down to "I want my opponent to make his moves first so that I can slack off if he makes a mistake." I'm sure he's thinking the same thing - so I guess it is a game of chicken.

    In your scenario, maybe you need 54 to win. If you can get 60, shouldn't you be going for 60 anyways? Either you get it or you don't - it's not like a raid where you can retreat and try again.

    Maybe you think that with team A you have a 50% chance of getting 60 and a 50% chance of getting less than 55, whereas with team B you have a 95% chance of getting 55. If you know you need 58 to win then you have to go with A to have a shot, but if you only need 55 to win why take the risk?
  • hiding the scores is fair. I doubt developer intent is for a “game of chicken”. If I go first it’s like I’m playing blackjack at a casino.
  • Or rather more accurately, sticking with the blackjack analogy, going last is like playing blackjack at the casino with the dealers cards turned face up.
  • Liath wrote: »

    Maybe you think that with team A you have a 50% chance of getting 60 and a 50% chance of getting less than 55, whereas with team B you have a 95% chance of getting 55. If you know you need 58 to win then you have to go with A to have a shot, but if you only need 55 to win why take the risk?

    OK - but if the scores were hidden like OP wants, you'd have to run A regardless because you don't know that you need 58. So how is that any different then just trying to maximize your score? Whenever GA goes live I just attack. My opponent always seems to wait til the last minute. To me it's immaterial - I'm going to do my best to clear his defenses with what I have, and pray my defense holds. I don't need to know his moves first. It's not like I can adjust my defenses once they're set.
    Ally Code 766-465-766 swgoh.gg/u/trystansr/collection/
  • And yes, it is absolutely unfair if “playing chicken” is meant to be part of the strategy. What if GA is at 4 am for you? @Kyno I know you’ve argued that GA has to be 24 hours to accomodate everyone. How can you make that argument and then turn around here and admit that attacking last is a good strategy but defend forcing people to attack at a certain hour like it’s an arena payout?

    How is anything "unfair" in a game of war? I like GA, but man all I hear and read is about ppl whining, get with it!
  • @Trystan_Spyder gets it!
  • Trystan doesn’t get it. It’s not about “doing your best” it’s about probability of winning with certain teams and hedging your bets based on what you need. If you know the only way you can win is a clean win with a team of 4 you’ll go with that even if you only have a 25% chance of success. If you don’t know if you need the extra points you won’t risk that.
  • Grizz331 wrote: »
    Trystan doesn’t get it. It’s not about “doing your best” it’s about probability of winning with certain teams and hedging your bets based on what you need. If you know the only way you can win is a clean win with a team of 4 you’ll go with that even if you only have a 25% chance of success. If you don’t know if you need the extra points you won’t risk that.

    That's the way YOU play it, sure. I've already explained that's not the way I do. And if the OP got his wish and the point tallies were hidden, you wouldn't be able to hedge your bets because you would have only the vaguest idea of where the opponent would end up.
    Ally Code 766-465-766 swgoh.gg/u/trystansr/collection/
  • You should always go for maximum possible score regardless of what the other player has done. That way nothing is left to chance. If you aim for "minimum to win" you're setting yourself up to be surprised if you're opponent pulls off an RNG win, etc.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    You should always go for maximum possible score regardless of what the other player has done. That way nothing is left to chance. If you aim for "minimum to win" you're setting yourself up to be surprised if you're opponent pulls off an RNG win, etc.

    Well sure but this ignores the value proposition you sometimes have to make in a close match. Do I go conservative with my selection of which team I use to fight which team, because I only need the X banners I would get from Y guaranteed wins? Or do I need to clear the board, maybe even with undersized teams, in order to just barely win.

    Waiting allows you to make a more informed decision in a tight match.
  • Liath
    2777 posts Member
    Liath wrote: »

    Maybe you think that with team A you have a 50% chance of getting 60 and a 50% chance of getting less than 55, whereas with team B you have a 95% chance of getting 55. If you know you need 58 to win then you have to go with A to have a shot, but if you only need 55 to win why take the risk?

    OK - but if the scores were hidden like OP wants, you'd have to run A regardless because you don't know that you need 58. So how is that any different then just trying to maximize your score? Whenever GA goes live I just attack. My opponent always seems to wait til the last minute. To me it's immaterial - I'm going to do my best to clear his defenses with what I have, and pray my defense holds. I don't need to know his moves first. It's not like I can adjust my defenses once they're set.

    In that case it’s a matter of strategic decision and how risk averse you are. But it’s not a matter of an information dichotomy. Right now the person who attacks first has less information to inform his decision making than the person who attacks second. That’s what people who want the scores hidden find unfair.
  • Grizz331 wrote: »
    Trystan doesn’t get it. It’s not about “doing your best” it’s about probability of winning with certain teams and hedging your bets based on what you need. If you know the only way you can win is a clean win with a team of 4 you’ll go with that even if you only have a 25% chance of success. If you don’t know if you need the extra points you won’t risk that.

    That's the way YOU play it, sure. I've already explained that's not the way I do. And if the OP got his wish and the point tallies were hidden, you wouldn't be able to hedge your bets because you would have only the vaguest idea of where the opponent would end up.

    I am OP.
  • Grizz331 wrote: »
    Trystan doesn’t get it. It’s not about “doing your best” it’s about probability of winning with certain teams and hedging your bets based on what you need. If you know the only way you can win is a clean win with a team of 4 you’ll go with that even if you only have a 25% chance of success. If you don’t know if you need the extra points you won’t risk that.

    That's the way YOU play it, sure. I've already explained that's not the way I do. And if the OP got his wish and the point tallies were hidden, you wouldn't be able to hedge your bets because you would have only the vaguest idea of where the opponent would end up.

    The whole point is - I don’t want my opponent to be able to hedge his bets because if i go first, I can’t hedge my bets. My opponent goes in on a conditional probability setting, while i go in first with a full probability setting. Basic statistical knowledge already tells u your opponent has better odds.

    And we are talking about this in an evenly matched scenario. Nobody cares if you are badly matched and can steamroll your opponent, because then the points don’t matter.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    That's how "playing chicken" works.

    I have not had anyone wait that long yet.

    Oh my opponent is only attacking me now. Right after i cleared the board about 10min ago. Of course i was waiting too, but it’s 1230am now.

    I said it before and i’ll say it again, just hide the fricking points. It’s not strategy if your opponent is forever disadvantaged by timezone. And if GA cycles don’t rotate through different timezones, it is plain unfair to those who live where GA ends at 2-6am.

    Oh and maybe your opponents didnt wait that long because u know, perhaps GA ends at 5am for them so they don’t have much of a choice? Nice try.

    There is always a choice. Yes it is a strategy, just because one person may not be able to utilize it due to external factors doesnt change that fact.
    How is waiting until the end a strategy? Shouldn't you be trying to clear the opponent's side and get as many points as possible doing so? What the other guy is (not) doing has no bearing on trying to do your best.

    I will generally wait, but slowly clear out the more difficult teams. Saving the "easier" ones in case I dont clear on the first try to maybe make up points. But if you want to wait and see how your opponent does, that can be helpful. There is much less stress if they hit one or multiple 2s or possibly a 3.

    First focus should always be a clean wins, but if I need the extra point or 2, i will go in with a man down when i can. I wouldnt normally do that if i didnt know if would give me a win. The risk vs reward is not great enough to do that for "no reason".

    So having a strategy based on your opponent being ALWAYS forced to attack early because of his timezone is a strategy? Well done. I commend your deep thinking and understanding. Why not develop a strategy based on not knowing how many points your opponent scored? You clearly just want an advantage that some others will PERMANENTLY not have because GA does not rotate through time zones. Why not try setting your arena payout to 3am everyday? Then u can do fleet at 4am too! Can’t snipe? Too bad, poor strategy.
  • Kyno
    18102 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    That's how "playing chicken" works.

    I have not had anyone wait that long yet.

    Oh my opponent is only attacking me now. Right after i cleared the board about 10min ago. Of course i was waiting too, but it’s 1230am now.

    I said it before and i’ll say it again, just hide the fricking points. It’s not strategy if your opponent is forever disadvantaged by timezone. And if GA cycles don’t rotate through different timezones, it is plain unfair to those who live where GA ends at 2-6am.

    Oh and maybe your opponents didnt wait that long because u know, perhaps GA ends at 5am for them so they don’t have much of a choice? Nice try.

    There is always a choice. Yes it is a strategy, just because one person may not be able to utilize it due to external factors doesnt change that fact.
    How is waiting until the end a strategy? Shouldn't you be trying to clear the opponent's side and get as many points as possible doing so? What the other guy is (not) doing has no bearing on trying to do your best.

    I will generally wait, but slowly clear out the more difficult teams. Saving the "easier" ones in case I dont clear on the first try to maybe make up points. But if you want to wait and see how your opponent does, that can be helpful. There is much less stress if they hit one or multiple 2s or possibly a 3.

    First focus should always be a clean wins, but if I need the extra point or 2, i will go in with a man down when i can. I wouldnt normally do that if i didnt know if would give me a win. The risk vs reward is not great enough to do that for "no reason".

    So having a strategy based on your opponent being ALWAYS forced to attack early because of his timezone is a strategy? Well done. I commend your deep thinking and understanding. Why not develop a strategy based on not knowing how many points your opponent scored? You clearly just want an advantage that some others will PERMANENTLY not have because GA does not rotate through time zones. Why not try setting your arena payout to 3am everyday? Then u can do fleet at 4am too! Can’t snipe? Too bad, poor strategy.

    no one knows when their opponent is going to attack... again, that how chicken works, you dont know what the other person is going to do.

    I base my attacks on what i can and want to do, if i see a score and i can beat it I will try, but if i dont see a score , i do what i can to put up the best numbers.

    my strategy is more based on what i see in there roster. but i'm not going to put down someone elses strategy if thats what they want to to do.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    That's how "playing chicken" works.

    I have not had anyone wait that long yet.

    Oh my opponent is only attacking me now. Right after i cleared the board about 10min ago. Of course i was waiting too, but it’s 1230am now.

    I said it before and i’ll say it again, just hide the fricking points. It’s not strategy if your opponent is forever disadvantaged by timezone. And if GA cycles don’t rotate through different timezones, it is plain unfair to those who live where GA ends at 2-6am.

    Oh and maybe your opponents didnt wait that long because u know, perhaps GA ends at 5am for them so they don’t have much of a choice? Nice try.

    There is always a choice. Yes it is a strategy, just because one person may not be able to utilize it due to external factors doesnt change that fact.
    How is waiting until the end a strategy? Shouldn't you be trying to clear the opponent's side and get as many points as possible doing so? What the other guy is (not) doing has no bearing on trying to do your best.

    I will generally wait, but slowly clear out the more difficult teams. Saving the "easier" ones in case I dont clear on the first try to maybe make up points. But if you want to wait and see how your opponent does, that can be helpful. There is much less stress if they hit one or multiple 2s or possibly a 3.

    First focus should always be a clean wins, but if I need the extra point or 2, i will go in with a man down when i can. I wouldnt normally do that if i didnt know if would give me a win. The risk vs reward is not great enough to do that for "no reason".

    So having a strategy based on your opponent being ALWAYS forced to attack early because of his timezone is a strategy? Well done. I commend your deep thinking and understanding. Why not develop a strategy based on not knowing how many points your opponent scored? You clearly just want an advantage that some others will PERMANENTLY not have because GA does not rotate through time zones. Why not try setting your arena payout to 3am everyday? Then u can do fleet at 4am too! Can’t snipe? Too bad, poor strategy.

    no one knows when their opponent is going to attack... again, that how chicken works, you dont know what the other person is going to do.

    I base my attacks on what i can and want to do, if i see a score and i can beat it I will try, but if i dont see a score , i do what i can to put up the best numbers.

    my strategy is more based on what i see in there roster. but i'm not going to put down someone elses strategy if thats what they want to to do.

    So what’s your point?
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