Is Luke Skywalker the most powerful of all time

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  • YaeVizsla
    1459 posts Member
    edited January 10
    Boo wrote: »
    Yep, among many other things, but - again with Rey all those force powers need to be taught they don't just come to you like that.

    For a force sensitive being, the force guides their actions, gives them quick reflexes. They may be better pilots than normal people or better with fixing things or healing etc.

    Flat out use of force powers doesn't come naturally - it takes time and training - as per QGJ and Yoda states its a difficult path to becoming a jedi taking the most serious mind and training. Yoda keeps drilling into Luke's head to remember his training, complete his training etc etc.

    With this new trilogy anyone can be force sensitive and command the force to their will with absolutely no explanation, training or otherwise - just because Disney wants to build the narrative that everyone is a hero - THATS NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS, lol as per Han.

    Even Leia who should be the same power level as Luke has no training - yet, she did her Leia Poppins thing out of nowhere - its silly.
    By your reasoning, the Jedi and the Sith and the Nightsisters cannot exist, because Force powers require teaching, and someone had to teach the first Jedi/Sith/whatever, therefore they can never have these abilities.

    Teaching can help, but it is not strictly necessary.

    What's more, Jedi training is not about magical superpowers. It's about the very specific religion of the Jedi order. To be a Jedi requires many things, including a very specific mindset that they typically brainwashed children in from the time they could learn to speak, but it is not about building up superpowers as fast as possible. Rather, quite the opposite. The Jedi order was terrified of what one of their own could do if not utterly and dangerously repressed, so their methods are as much a power limiter to allow older Jedi to assess and a means of control as they are about training. What's more, the Jedi way is anathema to Luke's own nature. It is all about repressing emotion and cutting attachments, while to the end of the OT, Luke is all about passion before reason and deeply cherishing connections, and he's a deeply secular man to start with, the spirituality also against his nature. When he does Force good, it ain't by using Yoda's teachings. It's by putting his feelings on main and brute forcing the Force.

    The foundations for the Force are a mishmash of Christian and Buddhist philosophy, as compiled by people who have a wildly varying understanding of either. But one of the classic koans? "If you find Buddha on the road, kill him." The ability to commune with the Force is deeply tied to the road to enlightenment. And while others can help you on your journey, no one can give it to you or show you your path. The Jedi trying to force literally every Force sensitive they could get their hands on into the exact same path to enlightenment and forcing those who do not fit their mold to fit until they either comply or break is abuse and hubris. And that path of being a Jedi is not the same as being able to cast space wizard spells.

    And while Luke is the first example we see, and slow by necessity of being the first time we see someone really learning Force stuff, it's only one example. And if we go into the broader lore, it's all over the map, because the Force manifests differently for different people. We have characters like broom boy, Hedala Fardi, or kidnapped Rodian baby who learn to levitate stuff on their own at an early age. In one case, infancy. We have professional **** Corran Horn, who starts his Jedi training under Luke as an adult, and within a couple chapters sends Luke to consult a holocron twice to figure out what the heck Corran just figured out how to do. To include Corran accidentally learning how to absorb energy and fart fire tornadoes. That's not a thing Luke taught him. That's an ability that just manifested.

    The closest look we get at Force sensitive children is the Solo siblings in Legends, and the twins started doing Force stuff in the womb. Communicating with Leia, and they formed a twin bond that lasted for... if not forever, then until Jacen went dark side. Jaina started manipulating molecules on her own, and either Anakin or Jacen, I forget which one, was animal empathying all willy nilly without prompting as a tyke.

    Learning to use the Force is not about joining a specific religion and going through their rites. It's a manifestation of self and the personal journey. The Force does not belong to the Jedi, or the Sith, or the Dagoyan Masters, or the Nightsisters, or that rad space druid that got murdered in the Bane trilogy before we learned anything about him, or the Nuns of G'aav'aar'oon. They are not the gatekeepers.
    Post edited by YaeVizsla on
  • This thread became verbose fast.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Luke is canonically the most powerful mortal being.

    In legends, Valkorion was shown to be the most powerful, though Luke was stated to be the most.

    No Anakin was the most powerful. Just because he did not reach his full potential - his raw power to the force completely overshadowed Luke.

    Luke is a watered down version of Anakin - only 1/2 of Anakin's blood (mixed with Padme) and Anakin was created purely from the force - Anakin is the force personified.

    Like I say - Anakin did not reach his full potential, so in that regard, Luke was able to surpass him in abilities seen on screen, but not raw force power.

    This is incorrect, because George Lucas explicitly stated in an interview that Luke had the same potential that Anakin did, except he did eventually surpass it. He was equal to Anakin in potential and surpassed him in power and feats. Leia also has the same potential but she did not train and hone it.

    Also, potential =/= power. The most powerful IS Luke, just because you argue that Anakin had more potential to be powerful doesn't mean he is. That's like claiming that King Arthur as a baby held more power than King Uther (his father) did as king, just because Arthur had the potential to have more power. It does not make sense.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Luke is canonically the most powerful mortal being.

    In legends, Valkorion was shown to be the most powerful, though Luke was stated to be the most.

    No Anakin was the most powerful. Just because he did not reach his full potential - his raw power to the force completely overshadowed Luke.

    Luke is a watered down version of Anakin - only 1/2 of Anakin's blood (mixed with Padme) and Anakin was created purely from the force - Anakin is the force personified.

    Like I say - Anakin did not reach his full potential, so in that regard, Luke was able to surpass him in abilities seen on screen, but not raw force power.

    This is incorrect, because George Lucas explicitly stated in an interview that [snip]

    Without addressing the specifics of your post, Lucas is famous for blatant revisionist history.
  • TVF wrote: »
    Without addressing the specifics of your post, Lucas is famous for blatant revisionist history.
    What ever are you talking about? Stewjon was stated as Obi's home world in the original draft of the first script.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Without addressing the specifics of your post, Lucas is famous for blatant revisionist history.
    What ever are you talking about? Stewjon was stated as Obi's home world in the original draft of the first script.

    "Without addressing the specifics of your post."
  • TVF wrote: »
    "Without addressing the specifics of your post."
    Stewjon was something George invented in a Daily Show interview with Jon Stewart. It was a joke.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    "Without addressing the specifics of your post."
    Stewjon was something George invented in a Daily Show interview with Jon Stewart. It was a joke.

    "I didn't read your post."

    ;)
  • TVF wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Luke is canonically the most powerful mortal being.

    In legends, Valkorion was shown to be the most powerful, though Luke was stated to be the most.

    No Anakin was the most powerful. Just because he did not reach his full potential - his raw power to the force completely overshadowed Luke.

    Luke is a watered down version of Anakin - only 1/2 of Anakin's blood (mixed with Padme) and Anakin was created purely from the force - Anakin is the force personified.

    Like I say - Anakin did not reach his full potential, so in that regard, Luke was able to surpass him in abilities seen on screen, but not raw force power.

    This is incorrect, because George Lucas explicitly stated in an interview that [snip]

    Without addressing the specifics of your post, Lucas is famous for blatant revisionist history.

    This is true, however this isn't something that he ever revised. He stated it in an interview after Empire Strikes Back (I think it was a behind-the-scenes thing that you can find with the DVD, it's also on YouTube somewhere, it's been awhile since I've had to specifically quote it.
  • Boo
    3275 posts Member
    edited January 11
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Yep, among many other things, but - again with Rey all those force powers need to be taught they don't just come to you like that.

    For a force sensitive being, the force guides their actions, gives them quick reflexes. They may be better pilots than normal people or better with fixing things or healing etc.

    Flat out use of force powers doesn't come naturally - it takes time and training - as per QGJ and Yoda states its a difficult path to becoming a jedi taking the most serious mind and training. Yoda keeps drilling into Luke's head to remember his training, complete his training etc etc.

    With this new trilogy anyone can be force sensitive and command the force to their will with absolutely no explanation, training or otherwise - just because Disney wants to build the narrative that everyone is a hero - THATS NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS, lol as per Han.

    Even Leia who should be the same power level as Luke has no training - yet, she did her Leia Poppins thing out of nowhere - its silly.
    By your reasoning, the Jedi and the Sith and the Nightsisters cannot exist, because Force powers require teaching, and someone had to teach the first Jedi/Sith/whatever, therefore they can never have these abilities.

    Teaching can help, but it is not strictly necessary.

    What's more, Jedi training is not about magical superpowers. It's about the very specific religion of the Jedi order. To be a Jedi requires many things, including a very specific mindset that they typically brainwashed children in from the time they could learn to speak, but it is not about building up superpowers as fast as possible. Rather, quite the opposite. The Jedi order was terrified of what one of their own could do if not utterly and dangerously repressed, so their methods are as much a power limiter to allow older Jedi to assess and a means of control as they are about training. What's more, the Jedi way is anathema to Luke's own nature. It is all about repressing emotion and cutting attachments, while to the end of the OT, Luke is all about passion before reason and deeply cherishing connections, and he's a deeply secular man to start with, the spirituality also against his nature. When he does Force good, it ain't by using Yoda's teachings. It's by putting his feelings on main and brute forcing the Force.

    The foundations for the Force are a mishmash of Christian and Buddhist philosophy, as compiled by people who have a wildly varying understanding of either. But one of the classic koans? "If you find Buddha on the road, kill him." The ability to commune with the Force is deeply tied to the road to enlightenment. And while others can help you on your journey, no one can give it to you or show you your path. The Jedi trying to force literally every Force sensitive they could get their hands on into the exact same path to enlightenment and forcing those who do not fit their mold to fit until they either comply or break is abuse and hubris. And that path of being a Jedi is not the same as being able to cast space wizard spells.

    And while Luke is the first example we see, and slow by necessity of being the first time we see someone really learning Force stuff, it's only one example. And if we go into the broader lore, it's all over the map, because the Force manifests differently for different people. We have characters like broom boy, Hedala Fardi, or kidnapped Rodian baby who learn to levitate stuff on their own at an early age. In one case, infancy. We have professional **** Corran Horn, who starts his Jedi training under Luke as an adult, and within a couple chapters sends Luke to consult a holocron twice to figure out what the heck Corran just figured out how to do. To include Corran accidentally learning how to absorb energy and fart fire tornadoes. That's not a thing Luke taught him. That's an ability that just manifested.

    The closest look we get at Force sensitive children is the Solo siblings in Legends, and the twins started doing Force stuff in the womb. Communicating with Leia, and they formed a twin bond that lasted for... if not forever, then until Jacen went dark side. Jaina started manipulating molecules on her own, and either Anakin or Jacen, I forget which one, was animal empathying all willy nilly without prompting as a tyke.

    Learning to use the Force is not about joining a specific religion and going through their rites. It's a manifestation of self and the personal journey. The Force does not belong to the Jedi, or the Sith, or the Dagoyan Masters, or the Nightsisters, or that rad space druid that got murdered in the Bane trilogy before we learned anything about him, or the Nuns of G'aav'aar'oon. They are not the gatekeepers.

    Wow that's a long post, lol

    Yes the religion of the Jedi itself takes a serious mind - but the knowledge of the force has been passed down through master and apprentice in both Jedi and Sith for many many generations - each new being required a master.

    Your argument is what came first the chicken or the egg (essentially). Yes there would have been some that learned the powers without being taught - but that already would have taken a collection of dedicated minds - I am sure not one force being discovered every force power possible - again that is silly.

    As you say the force manifests differently, and to those already aware they are special, would have meditated and had deep thought about what they could do with being special and listened to the will of the force through their midichlorians.

    The jedi had a system in place to locate every known force sensitive born into Republic space - and it wasn't many. The peace keepers of the galaxy were vastly outnumbered in the Clone Wars. QGJ was shocked that Anakin was so powerful and that if he had been born in republic space he would have been discovered.

    Again - by TLJ standards, little children born here and there and all have the force and can just activate these force powers just because is absurd - only to fit the Disney narrative that everyone (particularly children) can be a hero/Jedi.

    It makes no sense. I doubt broom boy took the time to quieten his mind and listen to the midichlorians speaking to him the will of the force and taking the time to actively train himself - children typically do not have that kind of attention span and discipline.

    Those that came before and discovered such force powers likely did so at an older and mature age - collectively.

    Rey on the other hand activated many force powers all at once and in powerful forms, and never once did she meditate on her abilities - she was instantly blocking mind probes and reversing them, telekinesis where she is literally lifting mountains and rips a lightsaber apart and her mind trick - its ridiculous at best.

    So it all still makes 0 sense.
  • Being a Jedi takes that particular mind. Using the Force has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with being a Jedi. Being a Jedi has to do with the Force, yes, but the Force is bigger than the Jedi. The Jedi just have their own methods for accessing the Force nested in there.

    You're not upset with the ST because it conflicts with prior source material, or how the Force is established as working. You're upset because it conflicts with your fan fiction.

    The OT shows us one person's methods to access the Force from one lens. But that's not the beginning, middle, and end of what the Force is and can be in universe, and as other materials have shown us- materials I've given multiple examples of. Force abilities manifesting by instinct, reflex, or childlike experimentation is a way the Force has been presented as working for about twenty-five years now. And we had all kind of crazy Force children pattering about in the EU.

    And even in the OT, you don't need a teacher to use Force powers, let alone a council of meditating old farts who must pass down the ability teacher-to-student or there's no way someone will figure it out. When Luke is with Obi Wan, Ben defines a couple terms and teaches Luke some nebulous stuff about awareness through the Force. If you squint and **** your head, you can tie that to shooting the Death Star. What you cannot tie that to is at the beginning of ESB, when Luke has had no additional instruction, he uses telekinesis and grabs his saber. Obi Wan did not teach him that. He taught himself. Likewise, at the beginning of Return of the Jedi, Luke uses a Force choke. At this point, he's had training with Yoda, sure, but this is definitely something Yoda did not teach him, and Force choke is framed as a distinct power from telekinesis. Luke taught himself that, too.

    So, people can teach themselves Force powers without a teacher, and manifest powers in the first place without a teacher. We've seen it done multiple times before.

    And while "meditation" is not explicitly a requirement, this bears mentioning. Meditation is not just sitting down, crossing your legs, and going humina humina. Meditation comes in many forms in many traditions. Repetition of kata, as we see Rey doing on the cliffs, is a form of meditation.

    The Force has long been framed as an innate ability that can manifest in anyone, anywhere, which you can hone yourself without an old man in a robe telling you that you're a wizard, Harry, but it helps.
  • Anakin all the way imo. Not Vader.

    While he was a Jedi Knight he hadn't reached his full potential.He is after all, the Chosen One.
    If Anakin did not fall to the Dark Side and maximized his capabilities, Luke wouldn't stand a chance.

    Nor would Yoda or Mace as said by Sidious and as prophesied
  • DontSteptoThis
    61 posts Member
    edited January 14
    AntiFunn wrote: »
    Anakin all the way imo. Not Vader.

    While he was a Jedi Knight he hadn't reached his full potential.He is after all, the Chosen One.
    If Anakin did not fall to the Dark Side and maximized his capabilities, Luke wouldn't stand a chance.

    Nor would Yoda or Mace as said by Sidious and as prophesied

    It’s so silly imo to even question Anakin as “the most powerful” he had the POTENTIAL to be but was no where near his potential, TLJ Lukes Force prowess is miles miles ahead of Anakins because Luke reached MORE of his potential, not even a debate
    And Luke “wouldn’t stand a chance”, he’s his son lmao course he stands a chance, has his blood after all
  • Boo
    3275 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Being a Jedi takes that particular mind. Using the Force has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with being a Jedi. Being a Jedi has to do with the Force, yes, but the Force is bigger than the Jedi. The Jedi just have their own methods for accessing the Force nested in there.

    You're not upset with the ST because it conflicts with prior source material, or how the Force is established as working. You're upset because it conflicts with your fan fiction.

    The OT shows us one person's methods to access the Force from one lens. But that's not the beginning, middle, and end of what the Force is and can be in universe, and as other materials have shown us- materials I've given multiple examples of. Force abilities manifesting by instinct, reflex, or childlike experimentation is a way the Force has been presented as working for about twenty-five years now. And we had all kind of crazy Force children pattering about in the EU.

    And even in the OT, you don't need a teacher to use Force powers, let alone a council of meditating old farts who must pass down the ability teacher-to-student or there's no way someone will figure it out. When Luke is with Obi Wan, Ben defines a couple terms and teaches Luke some nebulous stuff about awareness through the Force. If you squint and **** your head, you can tie that to shooting the Death Star. What you cannot tie that to is at the beginning of ESB, when Luke has had no additional instruction, he uses telekinesis and grabs his saber. Obi Wan did not teach him that. He taught himself. Likewise, at the beginning of Return of the Jedi, Luke uses a Force choke. At this point, he's had training with Yoda, sure, but this is definitely something Yoda did not teach him, and Force choke is framed as a distinct power from telekinesis. Luke taught himself that, too.

    So, people can teach themselves Force powers without a teacher, and manifest powers in the first place without a teacher. We've seen it done multiple times before.

    And while "meditation" is not explicitly a requirement, this bears mentioning. Meditation is not just sitting down, crossing your legs, and going humina humina. Meditation comes in many forms in many traditions. Repetition of kata, as we see Rey doing on the cliffs, is a form of meditation.

    The Force has long been framed as an innate ability that can manifest in anyone, anywhere, which you can hone yourself without an old man in a robe telling you that you're a wizard, Harry, but it helps.

    I would agree that the force manifests differently in others - Quinlon Vos has an ability to track recent history of an object for example. But again - he is an older Jedi not a child or a mere newcomer to the way of the force - he would have undergone many years of training to discover that power.

    As for the Rodian using a force push technique or even Starkiller as a child ripping Vader's own lightsaber to his grasp - this was all done under duress as you have made before - an anomaly, a fluke use of the force, not likely to be able to be recreated again without being reflected upon "what just happened". And some training to better use it.

    Babies when they are born cannot just stand up, walk and talk - they learn this and there concepts from others and practice themselves.

    Indeed an adult may be able to randomly punch or kick to defend themselves, but not able to instantly understand martial arts pulling off complicated locks, whirlwind kicks, grappling, throws etc - just because that person is aware of their existence - it doesn't work that way.

    Rey was able to pull off not only complicated force techniques at random will - but in the process was able to defy and beat trained force users. Broom boy also wasn't under duress at the time of pulling that broom to his hand - they both just do things - again fitting the new star wars narrative I have explained above.

    Its not my version of "fan fiction" its how it is.

    The darkside is the quicker and easier path to using the force and focusing ones passion into strengths in the force, but even they have a lot of training. Just look at the rigorous training Sidious put Maul through.

    While unplanned events can happen within the force - one cannot simply just be a force user and automatically tap into any force power that ever existed just because the story tells them to do so - that is very poor writing. Which is why there was such build up as to who Rey's parents were and why she was able to do these things.

    My view is following established lore, not "fan fiction", lol.
  • Boo
    3275 posts Member
    AntiFunn wrote: »
    Anakin all the way imo. Not Vader.

    While he was a Jedi Knight he hadn't reached his full potential.He is after all, the Chosen One.
    If Anakin did not fall to the Dark Side and maximized his capabilities, Luke wouldn't stand a chance.

    Nor would Yoda or Mace as said by Sidious and as prophesied

    It’s so silly imo to even question Anakin as “the most powerful” he had the POTENTIAL to be but was no where near his potential, TLJ Lukes Force prowess is miles miles ahead of Anakins because Luke reached MORE of his potential, not even a debate
    And Luke “wouldn’t stand a chance”, he’s his son lmao course he stands a chance, has his blood after all

    Yes Luke reached his full potential - that doesn't mean he was the most powerful. Anakin by his own connection to the force that surpassed every being ever in the galaxy was more powerful - he just did not utilize that power to its full capability.

    If I have a Ferrari and travel at 30km/ph and a VW travelling at 100km/ph - is the Ferrari still not the fastest car, even though it is travelling slower? Its the same thing.
  • Boo wrote: »
    AntiFunn wrote: »
    Anakin all the way imo. Not Vader.

    While he was a Jedi Knight he hadn't reached his full potential.He is after all, the Chosen One.
    If Anakin did not fall to the Dark Side and maximized his capabilities, Luke wouldn't stand a chance.

    Nor would Yoda or Mace as said by Sidious and as prophesied

    It’s so silly imo to even question Anakin as “the most powerful” he had the POTENTIAL to be but was no where near his potential, TLJ Lukes Force prowess is miles miles ahead of Anakins because Luke reached MORE of his potential, not even a debate
    And Luke “wouldn’t stand a chance”, he’s his son lmao course he stands a chance, has his blood after all

    Yes Luke reached his full potential - that doesn't mean he was the most powerful. Anakin by his own connection to the force that surpassed every being ever in the galaxy was more powerful - he just did not utilize that power to its full capability.

    If I have a Ferrari and travel at 30km/ph and a VW travelling at 100km/ph - is the Ferrari still not the fastest car, even though it is travelling slower? Its the same thing.
    I get exactly what you mean, but TLJ Luke was more powerful than any version of Anakin we have seen and there’s no discussion there really
  • Boo wrote: »
    Luke also struggles with temptation to the darkside with thoughts of killing his nephew in his sleep, while Rey goes straight to the darkside at will on Ach-To and returns completely unscathed.

    Rey is superior in every way.

    Dont forget shes better looking

    ...
    Get good and get RevanRyanwhales
  • AntiFunn
    43 posts Member
    edited January 15
    BTW Anakin also vanquished the Dark Son on Mortis, the very being that is the embodiment of the DAARK SIDE OF THE FOOORCE /Palpatine voice/ and brought balance to their world.
  • Boo
    3275 posts Member
    edited January 15
    Boo wrote: »
    AntiFunn wrote: »
    Anakin all the way imo. Not Vader.

    While he was a Jedi Knight he hadn't reached his full potential.He is after all, the Chosen One.
    If Anakin did not fall to the Dark Side and maximized his capabilities, Luke wouldn't stand a chance.

    Nor would Yoda or Mace as said by Sidious and as prophesied

    It’s so silly imo to even question Anakin as “the most powerful” he had the POTENTIAL to be but was no where near his potential, TLJ Lukes Force prowess is miles miles ahead of Anakins because Luke reached MORE of his potential, not even a debate
    And Luke “wouldn’t stand a chance”, he’s his son lmao course he stands a chance, has his blood after all

    Yes Luke reached his full potential - that doesn't mean he was the most powerful. Anakin by his own connection to the force that surpassed every being ever in the galaxy was more powerful - he just did not utilize that power to its full capability.

    If I have a Ferrari and travel at 30km/ph and a VW travelling at 100km/ph - is the Ferrari still not the fastest car, even though it is travelling slower? Its the same thing.
    I get exactly what you mean, but TLJ Luke was more powerful than any version of Anakin we have seen and there’s no discussion there really

    100% agree on that. It just goes to show really how overpowered Rey is. Bare in mind, Anakin was trained for 10 years when we see him in ATOC - let alone how his powers and experience has grown by the time we see him in ROTS, fighting wars etc. would hone his skills much faster compared to when Jedi acted as peace keepers when the galaxy was at peace.

    Rey is just crazy OP, lol
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