TW matchmaking needs a complete overhaul.
What is the point in even participating in a TW when this is the matchup we are given?
This isnt some fluke, getting such an unbalanced opponent is what we get over 80% of the time. The TW matchmaking must get a total overhaul.
This isnt some fluke, getting such an unbalanced opponent is what we get over 80% of the time. The TW matchmaking must get a total overhaul.
2
Replies
Who would want to watch Mike Tyson beat up on Connor McGregor? Who wants to watch the New England Patriots destroy the ECU Pirates in football? No one. And no one likes to be the little guy in those matchups either. Please, please fix this!
When guilds with 10-15 alts have those 10-15 alts sit out a TW.... That isnt a 'tw optional' guild. This is a guild that uses the alts for GP when it is useful, and doesnt use them when it is not useful. So they reap the rewards on TB's from having 50 members. They also reap the rewards on raids by having the alts sit out and thus increase the % of players getting good rewards on raids, no one wants to be a whale and then finish in the bottom 10% on a raid and by buffering with alts you 'solve' this problem while still using the advantage of their daily raid tickets. Then they reap the rewards on TW's from having 35-40 accounts of equal GP to 50 accounts which is ALWAYS an advantage. Hence the title, TW matchmaking needs a total overhaul. IE if a guild goes in with 35-40 accounts they need to be matched vs another guild with 35-40 accounts in the TW or as close to that as possible.
Another way to look at it: When div 1 players who use 16 squads for GAC, go in with 40 members to a TW, they at most only need 10 of those 16 GAC squads for the tw (4-5 on D 4-5 on O not counting fleets). And when div 1 players with 40 members goes against div 3 players with 50..... They shockingly always win vs the div 3 players.
Just because there is an 'explanation' as to 'how' we got matched doesnt mean there is ANYTHING OK with this match up. Even then, I think you are giving way too much credit to the match making system. We have had many guilds with way more total GP than us and then when it starts all 50 members are attacking us. You are assuming a lot to think that it is impossible to get absurd GP imbalances. If there was just an easy fix it would of been to add more tiers, so after 160m there would be 180m, 200m, 220m etc. But again, I said it needs a complete overhaul as that isnt the only issue.
If nothing else, have the algorithm look at the % of active TW participants who are in div 1 and match them to another guild with a similar % in div 1 in the 160m+ bracket.
1) Are you sure your opponents have dropped 10-15 Alts? You can tell how many they have signed up by the number of squads required per zone. My guess is 21 per zone, meaning they dropped 7 or 8. That’s assuming your guild went in full.
2) since they changed matchmaking it’s been demonstrated that active GP is the key determining factor in matchmaking. Maybe in the old days there were GP imbalances when all 50 had signed up, but that’s not happening now. I don’t accept that you’ve had “all 50” members attacking you when your opponent has a much higher total GP.
And when they dont have alt accounts, but are actual TW casual guilds, then what?
You are correct that, just because there is a how, doesnt mean its correct, but showing a misrepresentation of what is actually going on doesnt help paint a clear picture and is also not the correct way to open this conversation....it will just lead to questions to clarify, which may come across like you dont know the full situation, since you are misrepresenting the full situation.
^^ already accounted for
Please point out which are the 10-15 alt accounts, your opponents have sitting out:
https://swgoh.gg/g/38151/junkyard/
And if they indeed have 15 alt accounts sitting out, how many alt accounts does your own guild have sitting out? Surely you must have at least some sitting out to be matched with the top-35 accounts of the "Junkyard" guild.
How do they do that, if 10-15 of the members are low GP inactive alt accounts? How does that work?
Only having (less than) half the guild participate in raids that are on farm is not unusual - even for guilds without a single alt account. Having every member contribute would be very unusual.
Equal GP? There's a 1.7 million GP difference between their highest GP roster and their 35th highest GP roster. If you consider that equal GP rosters, then congratulations on being matched with a guild with the same GP rosters as your guild.
Maybe next time dont start with a wild and unfounded assumption.
Because it doesnt require a total overhaul to account for things like that.
Also basing things on GAC has it's own issues, but those require actually looking at the situation and not an assumption that the other team is some how working the system to face you.
Please point out which of these are the 10-15 alt accounts, your opponents don't use this TW:
https://swgoh.gg/g/38151/junkyard/
And if they truly have 15 members sit out, how many alt accounts does your own guild have sitting out? Surely you must have some sit out to be matched with the top-35 accounts of “Junkyard"
How does having 10-15 accounts help them as compared to having 10-15 active mains instead? How does that work?
It's not unusual that (less than) half the guild doesn't actively participate in raids on farm - even in guilds without a single alt-account. How is that any different?
Equal GP? There's approximately 1.7 million GP difference between their highest GP roster and their 35th highest GP roster. If you consider this to be equal GP, then congratulations on being matched to a guild of equal GP with yours.
I started with the raw data, and with that disparity, their top 5 players could be sitting it out and we would still lose, but I am also not making the case for 1 TW, this is something that has played out time and time again where magically the lowest accounts with similar names to the highest accounts arent present in the TW, or like last TW, the guild had 20m GP more, 23 squads per zone, so less than a handful sitting it out, and the result was predictable.
If there is an advantage to be had, given there are 50 slots in a guild, the assumption should always be in the 160m+ bracket that they have at least 1 person smart enough to do a simple google search and read other people's strategies.
There shouldnt be a benefit to having players sit out a TW. The system would actually be better if it counted the entire GP of the guild in the 160+ bracket regardless of if they join as it would stop people from gaming the system. Then have active non casual guilds self police by kicking non participants. The answer here isnt even "whale harder" its, break the TOS and use alts to feed your main as that is the winning strategy.
EDIT:
If you really want to go the route of "almost no one is gaming the system" then the solution is super easy, everyone going in with less than 50 can be matched to another guild with the same number of participants and since no one is gaming the system, then it will all be ok.
Even if they were to drop 7 or 8 characters, that still means nothing. "oh well they are only 210 million GP!" Yeah, still tens of millions of GP more with hundreds of relic'd characters.
A good example of the absurdity of this would be watching Malak at Relic 7 solo entire meta teams, which there are videos of that, even back when there was no G13 he was doing that. You can have 500 'solid' characters, but if they have 25 maxed out meta characters / teams, you aren't going to have a chance. That is the unfortunate literal truth of it.
CG really needs to understand historical norms of war. 5 lions is better than 500 sheep and all that.
My response about having accounts sit out was in response to another poster and has nothing to do with this guild in particular. If you think there is anything fair about this match up.... then you and I are looking at completely different definitions of the word fair. This also isnt about 1 TW match up. It is about a pattern of match ups. The strategy laid out for utilizing alts is based on ideal strategy, and has nothing to do with this 1 guild. The need to change the current system is based on how it could be abused to the extreme, not if 1 guild is or is not an abuser. It needs to be changed because it CAN be abused easily, and HAS been abused historically, although I make no statement on this 1 guild. They didnt ask to be paired with us, it was the Dev's system that paired them with us and the Dev's system is not creating FAIR match ups. This one guild could have the EXACT SAME active GP in this TW that we do and it would still not be a FAIR matchup. As previously stated, EQUAL GP between two guilds is only fair when the two parties have equal participants (and even then it is not assured to be fair), if one guild has less participants while having the same active GP, they have a HUGE advantage, and at this level, an insurmountable one.
equal GP as in each guild has an equal active GP in the TW...... the sum of the 35-40 = the sum of the 50....
It is really easy to ask players to have their alts sit out with the explanation that it will help your main, it is an insult to ask a main to sit out, and very few people would be in a guild they arent allowed to participate in except for TB's.
The number of calculations done server side is an important factor to consider whenever making a change to an online game. Anything that strains the server side processing power should be carefully considered.
Logical processes are the easiest for the server to handle, as such comparing the quality of one character to the quality of another character based in a manner that relies on something other than an assigned valuation is extremely taxing and cannot be reasonably accomplished.
Therefore, any comparison requires there to already be a set valuation on an account. If that set valuation is the entire account value then that is what has to be used. If less than the entire account were to be used, then the total value would have to be removed and replaced with the lesser value, such as the top 100 characters. To keep both would at least double the server side strain when making normal day to day changes.
When using a set valuation you have a range of comparative tools, simple total, mean, median, mode, range. The game currently uses simple total as its only metric. While adding all 3 of mean, median, and range, might not be necessary, a test environment should be used to see which combination of those 3 yields the best results. Of these, mean would likely be most instructive but given that median requires only finding the middle point on a sorted list, a very easy logical process, then there is very little reason not to use that as well. In isolation they may be no better than the simple total, but when combined they form a refinement that can easily categorize valued lists between top heavy, and more equitable value distribution throughout the list as well as adjust for lists that have an unequal number of line items on the list, where as simple total is blind to all of this.
Lastly there is mode. When individual accounts are already sorted into a list of values, such as 1-10, mode can be used to determine where the bulk of the list resides. It doesnt matter if 1 is the best or 10 is the best, mode doesnt care. While it is possible to look at the entire distribution between div 1 and div 10, this would be quite server intensive. As such, it might be more meaningful to only look to compare the mode, or just look to compare the top division as a percentage of the whole. Long term, this will require the range of values for placement into the divisions be updated to keep the range of accounts in div 1 within a reasonable amount.
We have 50, they have 41 and 21 per zone. I really am not trying to make this about this 1 guild. It is all about the match making system for me.
This should make it a bit more fairer for guilds that constantly lose due to poor matching.
but the raw data doesn't show the disparity and is the primary reason you may feel that comments were directed at you being "naive". The data you showed would be an unfair matchup, but the truth is that the reality is "more fair" than you are representing it. if you have data or actual information I would suggest that you message the Dev team with this and try to discuss this in an effort to help them fine tune the matchmaking. rather then trying to sensationalize this with misinformation or assumptions or baseless assertions. That might actually help move things forward.
I agree there shouldn't be an advantage to be had from playing the system, but the player base shouldn't also feel "forced" to participate in an event that can not be scheduled and takes a fair amount of time. I dont believe running 2 accounts has anything to do with the ToS. adding additional factors to the matching would probably do more to solve the problem than trying to force players to participate. You do realize that people actually take short breaks and have lives and dont always want to be glued to a phone to play a single game mode right?
No I am always on the route of we should not make some suffer because of others. again sometimes players do want or need to not be active, any solution that forces them to be pushed out of their guild, or be dead weight is not a good solution, and also not necessary.
It lets you know the outcome before you start. In this case you don’t have to waste anytime on battles.
Nothing worse than doing pointless battles when you know your outmatched in toons gear and mods lol.
Is that how you approach everything in life? Give up if it looks too hard?
Oh my.... I dont even know where to start.... This isnt "everything in life" this is entertainment. At the point that entertainment stops being fun, you quit. This thread is a communique to devs; what is going on with matchmaking is not fun... make it fun again like it was before the 160+ bracket...
Pfft.... look around. Tell me ppl don't act like this game means something.
And even if we go with your point that it's just a game (which I actually agree with, btw), then that's even more reason to just play and hope for the best.
So many ppl right now complaining there isn't enough content, then someone says they won't even play the content they do have because some app tells them they'll lose... so dumb.
I can look at those stats and predict outcome. You get through 1-2 zones full participation while they clear out every zone. They will stop at ships Leave those open just to troll the fact.
It’s just better time management to collect the rewards. I have yet to see a tw where a guild didn’t participate so 0% chance that’s happening.
Not that they need much participation 3 zones should do the trick the rest is just overkill.
You do the data analysis so players aren’t upset about the outcome.
Have you at least tried every single time? Or are you content in looking at the numbers and giving up?
Do you believe the underdog always loses?
Rabble rabble rabble
I was agreeing to your point, now I’ve changed my mind. It’s a zeta shard suck it up
So again:
How does the guild benefit in TB from having 10-15 alt accounts instead of those 10-15 accounts being main/active players/accounts?
Again:
Which alt accounts did "Junkyard" have sitting out? And how many did your own guild have sitting out?
Added:
How can you be sure, that they deliberately ask members to sit out and that it's not simply players, who will be absent from the game during the TW or simply dislike the game mode? Yes, there are guilds in your GP range in which participating in TW is completely voluntary. How are you sure, that you didn't simply encounter one of those guilds?