Q&A: Sandbagging Response

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Replies

  • nottenst wrote: »
    nottenst wrote: »

    Yes, just this week. We couldn't believe that the day after the Christmas they organized themselves to wipe us out in 2 hours.

    Day after Christmas nobody is doing anything often, I meant you're expecting them to be calling people out on Christmas day?

    If they are organized enough to complete 190 or more battles over 2 hours, then I would expect that they could have had more members participating if they wanted to. That's all.

    We have never seen an opposing guild able to clean us out so quickly even when previously outmatched. It just looked suspicious.

    We had this exact thing happen this TW. I don't believe it to be nefarious in any way however. (Not that I've investigated) It's just the way things go sometimes. Within about 2-3 hours they'd wiped our board.
    This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken..” -Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever
  • StarSon wrote: »

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    Bar all the clearly irrelevant examples I've given each territory war this conversation has been active for. There is no way to guarantee an advantage is given, just as my examples are not proof that having the bigger guild is an advantage, there are other factors.
    StarSon wrote: »
    "Shorthanded"
    Fits the situation better. No intent.
    Then we can focus on the real issue: whether the matching provides an advantage to the shorthanded team.

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    @thecarterologist958 @StarSon here’s one for you:

    TW is optional in our guild. People don’t sign up if they can’t commit to regularly checking the board to attack.

    The Christmas TW we had our lowest ever sign up total of 44/50. Yay! Advantage us, right?

    No. We faced a guild who were in the top 150 total GP (247M) against our 226M. 20 slots per zone so only 39/40 of them signed up. We were well beaten. Not annihilated, but a good 200 points behind them. They cleared our board in 3 hours, we cleared their’s in 23 hours.

    Going in short handed doesn’t always give an advantage, because there’s nothing you can do to prevent being matched with a better guild who are going in even more short handed!
  • BobcatSkywalker
    2194 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    StarSon wrote: »

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    Bar all the clearly irrelevant examples I've given each territory war this conversation has been active for. There is no way to guarantee an advantage is given, just as my examples are not proof that having the bigger guild is an advantage, there are other factors.
    StarSon wrote: »
    "Shorthanded"
    Fits the situation better. No intent.
    Then we can focus on the real issue: whether the matching provides an advantage to the shorthanded team.

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    @thecarterologist958 @StarSon here’s one for you:

    TW is optional in our guild. People don’t sign up if they can’t commit to regularly checking the board to attack.

    The Christmas TW we had our lowest ever sign up total of 44/50. Yay! Advantage us, right?

    No. We faced a guild who were in the top 150 total GP (247M) against our 226M. 20 slots per zone so only 39/40 of them signed up. We were well beaten. Not annihilated, but a good 200 points behind them. They cleared our board in 3 hours, we cleared their’s in 23 hours.

    Going in short handed doesn’t always give an advantage, because there’s nothing you can do to prevent being matched with a better guild who are going in even more short handed!

    25 for max rewards? Now I just need to find 25 other guys who sit out and let the rest of us sandbag... but they all also have to have 5m gp to help in tb and do 600 a day.

    Looking for 25 members to join us and sit out tw if anyone wants to collude lmk we got room if u got sand we got bags. Have a feeling no one will ever respond but apparently it's a thing I'll keep u all posted on the status.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    StarSon wrote: »

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    Bar all the clearly irrelevant examples I've given each territory war this conversation has been active for. There is no way to guarantee an advantage is given, just as my examples are not proof that having the bigger guild is an advantage, there are other factors.
    StarSon wrote: »
    "Shorthanded"
    Fits the situation better. No intent.
    Then we can focus on the real issue: whether the matching provides an advantage to the shorthanded team.

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    @thecarterologist958 @StarSon here’s one for you:

    TW is optional in our guild. People don’t sign up if they can’t commit to regularly checking the board to attack.

    The Christmas TW we had our lowest ever sign up total of 44/50. Yay! Advantage us, right?

    No. We faced a guild who were in the top 150 total GP (247M) against our 226M. 20 slots per zone so only 39/40 of them signed up. We were well beaten. Not annihilated, but a good 200 points behind them. They cleared our board in 3 hours, we cleared their’s in 23 hours.

    Going in short handed doesn’t always give an advantage, because there’s nothing you can do to prevent being matched with a better guild who are going in even more short handed!

    So, you're saying that going in more shorthanded (shorter handed?) than your opponent is an advantage, right? So, you're supporting StarSon's "almost always" statement, right? (assuming that at your GP level most guilds are going in with 50 or almost 50 members).

    Just trying to get things straight. It seems like you're trying to argue against StarSon while your comment actually supports his statemen.
  • Waqui wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    Bar all the clearly irrelevant examples I've given each territory war this conversation has been active for. There is no way to guarantee an advantage is given, just as my examples are not proof that having the bigger guild is an advantage, there are other factors.
    StarSon wrote: »
    "Shorthanded"
    Fits the situation better. No intent.
    Then we can focus on the real issue: whether the matching provides an advantage to the shorthanded team.

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    @thecarterologist958 @StarSon here’s one for you:

    TW is optional in our guild. People don’t sign up if they can’t commit to regularly checking the board to attack.

    The Christmas TW we had our lowest ever sign up total of 44/50. Yay! Advantage us, right?

    No. We faced a guild who were in the top 150 total GP (247M) against our 226M. 20 slots per zone so only 39/40 of them signed up. We were well beaten. Not annihilated, but a good 200 points behind them. They cleared our board in 3 hours, we cleared their’s in 23 hours.

    Going in short handed doesn’t always give an advantage, because there’s nothing you can do to prevent being matched with a better guild who are going in even more short handed!

    So, you're saying that going in more shorthanded (shorter handed?) than your opponent is an advantage, right? So, you're supporting StarSon's "almost always" statement, right? (assuming that at your GP level most guilds are going in with 50 or almost 50 members).

    Just trying to get things straight. It seems like you're trying to argue against StarSon while your comment actually supports his statemen.

    Assuming that most guilds go in with 50 members is where the logic falls apart... for example probally less than 5% go in with all 50 active, think about it. It's rare to have a tw with 25 zones. it's usually like 17 to 23 zones so 34 to 46 people is realistic as what "most guilds do".

    Not just assuming most guilds have 50 other errors in rationale are...

    like less people (39/50, shorter handed) getting win condition rewards is somehow better than more people (44/50, less shorter handed) getting those same win condition rewards. More is more big picture.

    Or like you even have any control if you are more shorter handed than your opponent... if you go shorthanded with 45 you could get matched against a guild who sent 40. Go down to 35 get matched against a guild of 30. Drop to 30 and get matched against a guild of 25...

    My point is all your doing is getting less rewards making 5 sit out, 15 sit out, even if u go shortest possible handded and make 25 sit out your just getting less rewards as a guild big picture. And good luck finding those people to sit out in hopes of better rewards...

    no sucessful guilds are doing this.
  • If my comment supports his statement, why does it seem like I’m trying to argue against him?

    They’re both right. Short handed often gives an advantage, but it absolutely doesn’t guarantee you get one.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    Bar all the clearly irrelevant examples I've given each territory war this conversation has been active for. There is no way to guarantee an advantage is given, just as my examples are not proof that having the bigger guild is an advantage, there are other factors.
    StarSon wrote: »
    "Shorthanded"
    Fits the situation better. No intent.
    Then we can focus on the real issue: whether the matching provides an advantage to the shorthanded team.

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    @thecarterologist958 @StarSon here’s one for you:

    TW is optional in our guild. People don’t sign up if they can’t commit to regularly checking the board to attack.

    The Christmas TW we had our lowest ever sign up total of 44/50. Yay! Advantage us, right?

    No. We faced a guild who were in the top 150 total GP (247M) against our 226M. 20 slots per zone so only 39/40 of them signed up. We were well beaten. Not annihilated, but a good 200 points behind them. They cleared our board in 3 hours, we cleared their’s in 23 hours.

    Going in short handed doesn’t always give an advantage, because there’s nothing you can do to prevent being matched with a better guild who are going in even more short handed!

    So, you're saying that going in more shorthanded (shorter handed?) than your opponent is an advantage, right? So, you're supporting StarSon's "almost always" statement, right? (assuming that at your GP level most guilds are going in with 50 or almost 50 members).

    Just trying to get things straight. It seems like you're trying to argue against StarSon while your comment actually supports his statemen.

    Assuming that most guilds go in with 50 members is where the logic falls apart... for example probally less than 5% go in with all 50 active, think about it. It's rare to have a tw with 25 zones. it's usually like 17 to 23 zones so 34 to 46 people is realistic as what "most guilds do".

    For some reason my TWs seem to play differently than yours. I haven't seen less than 23 slots per zone for ages.
    Or like you even have any control if you are more shorter handed than your opponent...

    I don't believe anyone here claimed to be able to control match making.
    My point is all your doing is getting less rewards making 5 sit out, 15 sit out, even if u go shortest possible handded and make 25 sit out your just getting less rewards as a guild big picture. And good luck finding those people to sit out in hopes of better rewards...

    The reason for sitting out is completely irrelevant here.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    If my comment supports his statement, why does it seem like I’m trying to argue against him?

    The way you used quotes. But OK. You agree with them. All clear now
  • For those who consider sandbagging an issue I will offer some advice. It will be ignored but here it is.

    1 - Take off the tinfoil hats and stop basing your argument around people intentionally trying to get an edge. It makes you look like whiners and weakens your point about the effects it can have on TW.

    2 - Stop advocating for "fixes" that just unbalance things in a different direction. That just makes you look like self serving whiners.

    As a bonus I even will give you a suggestion of a fix that is not unbalanced and might even be possible to do. A two step matchmaking

    1 - Match by effective GP (just like now) followed by...

    2 -Match by number of participants, within a plus minus of say 2 people, this method does not punish the vast majority of guilds who are casual and have TW as voluntary content.


  • Outnumbered
    Shorthanded
    Minority
    Lean & mean
    Sparse
    Efficient

    Just fight the battle and accept the results. You can't win them all.
  • BobcatSkywalker
    2194 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    Bar all the clearly irrelevant examples I've given each territory war this conversation has been active for. There is no way to guarantee an advantage is given, just as my examples are not proof that having the bigger guild is an advantage, there are other factors.
    StarSon wrote: »
    "Shorthanded"
    Fits the situation better. No intent.
    Then we can focus on the real issue: whether the matching provides an advantage to the shorthanded team.

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    @thecarterologist958 @StarSon here’s one for you:

    TW is optional in our guild. People don’t sign up if they can’t commit to regularly checking the board to attack.

    The Christmas TW we had our lowest ever sign up total of 44/50. Yay! Advantage us, right?

    No. We faced a guild who were in the top 150 total GP (247M) against our 226M. 20 slots per zone so only 39/40 of them signed up. We were well beaten. Not annihilated, but a good 200 points behind them. They cleared our board in 3 hours, we cleared their’s in 23 hours.

    Going in short handed doesn’t always give an advantage, because there’s nothing you can do to prevent being matched with a better guild who are going in even more short handed!

    So, you're saying that going in more shorthanded (shorter handed?) than your opponent is an advantage, right? So, you're supporting StarSon's "almost always" statement, right? (assuming that at your GP level most guilds are going in with 50 or almost 50 members).

    Just trying to get things straight. It seems like you're trying to argue against StarSon while your comment actually supports his statemen.

    Assuming that most guilds go in with 50 members is where the logic falls apart... for example probally less than 5% go in with all 50 active, think about it. It's rare to have a tw with 25 zones. it's usually like 17 to 23 zones so 34 to 46 people is realistic as what "most guilds do".

    For some reason my TWs seem to play differently than yours. I haven't seen less than 23 slots per zone for ages.
    Or like you even have any control if you are more shorter handed than your opponent...

    I don't believe anyone here claimed to be able to control match making.
    My point is all your doing is getting less rewards making 5 sit out, 15 sit out, even if u go shortest possible handded and make 25 sit out your just getting less rewards as a guild big picture. And good luck finding those people to sit out in hopes of better rewards...

    The reason for sitting out is completely irrelevant here.

    If you dont recall seeing less than 23 slots for ages then all your matchups are with guilds having 46 to 50 members sign up and that would mean that matchmaking is functioning as even as possibly possible...

    If you feel matchmaking is unfair and you have 50 they have 47 then your issue is matchmaking in general, not sandbagging.

  • thecarterologist958 StarSon here’s one for you:

    TW is optional in our guild. People don’t sign up if they can’t commit to regularly checking the board to attack.

    The Christmas TW we had our lowest ever sign up total of 44/50. Yay! Advantage us, right?

    No. We faced a guild who were in the top 150 total GP (247M) against our 226M. 20 slots per zone so only 39/40 of them signed up. We were well beaten. Not annihilated, but a good 200 points behind them. They cleared our board in 3 hours, we cleared their’s in 23 hours.

    Going in short handed doesn’t always give an advantage, because there’s nothing you can do to prevent being matched with a better guild who are going in even more short handed!

    So you are saying matchmaking usually gives an advantage while giving an example where for you it didn't? So to some degree you have managed to take two opposing perspectives and provide a statement that supports them both. Going in shorthanded left you with a disadvantage, but you got beat by someone more shorthanded so perhaps it gave them one. I'm impressed by the agreeableness there.
  • I try to be reasonable. Short handed often gives easier matchups - but not always (though it’s worth pointing out that our opponents going in short handed worked for them!)
  • BobcatSkywalker
    2194 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    I try to be reasonable. Short handed often gives easier matchups - but not always (though it’s worth pointing out that our opponents going in short handed worked for them!)

    Maybe if you had more members join you could have had more teams to kill them and make up the 200 points... u managed to clear the board imagine of you had those 4 players all save for offense you might have won.

    Seems like going short handed hurt you because u could have used that extra firepower.

    The match up came down to 200 points and both guilds cleared so it was close... which is the point of matchmaking to make things close and random which the current system seems like it's doing a decent job considering how everything else in this game works everyone should be happy matchmaking is as good as it is and pray the devs dont touch it.

    If the update to a new matchmaking algorithm we could end up with another malaak event or undying loyalty bug or a broken calendar or extreme lag or traya gaining buffs in p3 sith or a silly little typo in text that breaks gp again game wide....who knows what they could throw out of balance trying to fix something that's not even broke.

    Meanwhile the bug list is growing like Mario after a mushroom and there are much better ways they can spend their dev time imo.
  • 1) if we’d gone in with more players we wouldn’t have been matched with that guild.

    2) TW is optional. People signing up who won’t be around for attack phase hurt much more than people who don’t sign up at all.

    3) sorry, but 200 points is not close. That’s 40 “drops”* - which is a massive difference.

    4) that defeat was one of 3 for our guild in 2019. I think our strategy is pretty good in general.

    5) I’m not complaining about matchmaking. If they could code it to reflect active GP AND # of signed up players, that would be good - but I’m not sure they’d get that right, so leaving it as it is for now suits me!

    * “drops” is how we measure our efficiency. Second time wins cost you 5 banners (that’s 1 drop), third time or more wins cost you 10 banners (that’s 2 drops). Our record is clearing a 23 team map with 4 drops total.
  • Maybe if you had more members join you could have had more teams to kill them and make up the 200 points... u managed to clear the board imagine of you had those 4 players all save for offense you might have won.

    Seems like going short handed hurt you because u could have used that extra firepower.

    The match up came down to 200 points and both guilds cleared so it was close... which is the point of matchmaking to make things close and random which the current system seems like it's doing a decent job considering how everything else in this game works everyone should be happy matchmaking is as good as it is and pray the devs dont touch it.

    If the update to a new matchmaking algorithm we could end up with another malaak event or undying loyalty bug or a broken calendar or extreme lag or traya gaining buffs in p3 sith or a silly little typo in text that breaks gp again game wide....who knows what they could throw out of balance trying to fix something that's not even broke.

    Meanwhile the bug list is growing like Mario after a mushroom and there are much better ways they can spend their dev time imo.

    Yet if they had had more people sign up they potentially would have been matched differently, then may have won or lost that match as well as it possibly having more or fewer opponents take part, its always a coin toss with what happens.
  • 1. Maybe yes maybe no
    2. True but people signing up and attacking is better than them getting no rewards and falling behind.
    3. It's not a blowout either I've seem people lose by 6k u lost by 200
    4. Ok
    5. They wouldn't get it right I'm pretty confident in that. They mess up even text written in a message box.... and the bug rate for new characters is 98%... we saw how territories open in LS geo... Kennobi ship been bugged since release and still not fixed.

    Plus the whole concern is are guilds exploiting this to get an advantage and the answer is clearly no there is no way to ensure you have an advantage.

    Cant ensure u go shorthanded
    Cant ensure you have the higher player average gp which usually means your guild has higher better top end teams
    Cant ensure you win

    that's the point to match up and see who's teams are better. In a fight there is always a favorite and underdog you cant ensure your always the favorite so nothing to see here but a bunch of complaining about mm
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    Bar all the clearly irrelevant examples I've given each territory war this conversation has been active for. There is no way to guarantee an advantage is given, just as my examples are not proof that having the bigger guild is an advantage, there are other factors.
    StarSon wrote: »
    "Shorthanded"
    Fits the situation better. No intent.
    Then we can focus on the real issue: whether the matching provides an advantage to the shorthanded team.

    Shorthanded it is.

    Shorthanding a TW will almost always give you an advantage, as has been shown many times in this thread.

    @thecarterologist958 @StarSon here’s one for you:

    TW is optional in our guild. People don’t sign up if they can’t commit to regularly checking the board to attack.

    The Christmas TW we had our lowest ever sign up total of 44/50. Yay! Advantage us, right?

    No. We faced a guild who were in the top 150 total GP (247M) against our 226M. 20 slots per zone so only 39/40 of them signed up. We were well beaten. Not annihilated, but a good 200 points behind them. They cleared our board in 3 hours, we cleared their’s in 23 hours.

    Going in short handed doesn’t always give an advantage, because there’s nothing you can do to prevent being matched with a better guild who are going in even more short handed!

    So, you're saying that going in more shorthanded (shorter handed?) than your opponent is an advantage, right? So, you're supporting StarSon's "almost always" statement, right? (assuming that at your GP level most guilds are going in with 50 or almost 50 members).

    Just trying to get things straight. It seems like you're trying to argue against StarSon while your comment actually supports his statemen.

    Assuming that most guilds go in with 50 members is where the logic falls apart... for example probally less than 5% go in with all 50 active, think about it. It's rare to have a tw with 25 zones. it's usually like 17 to 23 zones so 34 to 46 people is realistic as what "most guilds do".

    For some reason my TWs seem to play differently than yours. I haven't seen less than 23 slots per zone for ages.
    Or like you even have any control if you are more shorter handed than your opponent...

    I don't believe anyone here claimed to be able to control match making.
    My point is all your doing is getting less rewards making 5 sit out, 15 sit out, even if u go shortest possible handded and make 25 sit out your just getting less rewards as a guild big picture. And good luck finding those people to sit out in hopes of better rewards...

    The reason for sitting out is completely irrelevant here.

    If you dont recall seeing less than 23 slots for ages then all your matchups are with guilds having 46 to 50 members sign up and that would mean that matchmaking is functioning as even as possibly possible...

    If you feel matchmaking is unfair and you have 50 they have 47 then your issue is matchmaking in general, not sandbagging.

    Where did you read, that I have problems with sandbagging and think that matchmaking is unfair? That's.... "interesting".

    I simply don't see the "usually 17 to 23 defensive slots per zone", which you claim to see. I'm not complaining.

    I hope this is more clear to you now.

    Additionally:
    Yes, I believe that having significantly less participants than your opponent (same active GP) is an advantage. No, it doesn't eliminate other factors.


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