Han not shooting first

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In Smuggler's Run Han was shooting first on phases 1 and 2, but not 3. This happened every time I tried on the Deadly tier. Before the TM "update" Han always shot first on every phase. Anyone else notice their Han not shooting first?

Replies

  • TVF
    25611 posts Member
    Worked fine for me.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • ImaSmakya
    563 posts Member
    edited August 30
    In Smuggler's Run Han was shooting first on phases 1 and 2, but not 3. This happened every time I tried on the Deadly tier. Before the TM "update" Han always shot first on every phase. Anyone else notice their Han not shooting first?

    He did not shoot first for me either run so it has definitely changed due to the TM changes. But Crumb already explained that in another post.
    Post edited by ImaSmakya on
    DISCLAIMER: Post is subject to change.
  • Ultra
    6653 posts Member
    In Smuggler's Run Han was shooting first on phases 1 and 2, but not 3. This happened every time I tried on the Deadly tier. Before the TM "update" Han always shot first on every phase. Anyone else notice their Han not shooting first?

    its because your Han doesn't have more speed
  • trianglesubmissi
    22 posts Member
    edited August 30
    His speed is irrelevant. Why would his speed matter? He takes a bonus turn at the start of each encounter. Each phase is a new encounter. While the opposition may start with full TM, the bonus turn is supposed to take priority.
  • Kisakee
    920 posts Member
    edited August 30
    His speed is irrelevant. Why would his speed matter? He takes a bonus turn at the start of each encounter. Each phase is a new encounter.
    7xj11x5aa4id.jpeg
    Never make the mistake of believing forbearance equates to acceptance, or that all positions are equally valid.
  • Don’t worry everyone! There was an entire thread about how, despite Crumb saying Han should shoot first “as he should,” Han no longer shooting first is definitely WAI from here on out.
  • Ultra
    6653 posts Member
    His speed is irrelevant. Why would his speed matter? He takes a bonus turn at the start of each encounter. Each phase is a new encounter. While the opposition may start with full TM, the bonus turn is supposed to take priority.
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  • @Ultra Thank you! Clearly, I missed that one. And instead only caught the original announcement which ended with:

    "Additional Note: While Wat Tambor and Han Solo (Raid version) both take a Bonus Turn at the start of battle, Han Solo will always shoot first (as he should!)"
  • George Lucas approves: Han shoots second!
  • Well, he only shot first against greedo, not in every fight.
  • And Beckett.
  • Chqllzhqoliq0y.jpg
    Check the test in read, speed shouldn't matter, they have stated Han will always shoot 1st, they just obviously can't fix their own mechanics
  • As I understand it, the difference is that Wat Tambor is granted 100% turn meter, while Han is granted a bonus turn, although it's also possible that they had some sort of flag before that broke the "bonus turn" tie. They're not using the old system for breaking ties, so if they did have such a flag, it obviously is unrecognized by the new system.

    Since bonus turns come before other turns, and since Han is normally the only one with a bonus turn at the beginning of an encounter in most battles and events, there wasn't a problem (bonus turns can be earned by other characters, but aren't granted at the very beginning of the battle).

    However, there are PvE battles where bonus turns are granted. In that case, the first tie breaker is now TurnMeter, and if TM is the same, then the second tie breaker is the Speed of each toon, and only if TM and Speed are both equal do they use RNG.

    The answer is easy, of course, grant Han +1000% Turn Meter at the end of each encounter and THEN grant everyone their bonus turns at the beginning of the next encounter. Han's bonus turn will come first since the tie between bonus turns will be the toon with the most TM and then his speed will be irrelevant. A situation requiring this kind of tie breaking hardly ever comes into play, but when it does, this will fix it.

    Since they said they'll fix it in the future, I assume that this is (approximately) the fix they're going to implement.
  • Kyno
    25945 posts Moderator
    As I understand it, the difference is that Wat Tambor is granted 100% turn meter, while Han is granted a bonus turn, although it's also possible that they had some sort of flag before that broke the "bonus turn" tie. They're not using the old system for breaking ties, so if they did have such a flag, it obviously is unrecognized by the new system.

    They both get bonus turns, but Hans is coded to supersede Wats. That was not changed from the old and new system.
  • They both get bonus turns, but Hans is coded to supersede Wats. That was not changed from the old and new system.

    That's kinda what I said, they have a flag to give Han's bonus turn priority, but that flag isn't recognized in the new system.

    Don't you concede that the coding is not guaranteeing that Han shoots first? Or do you disbelieve all the reports of Han's bonus turn following other characters' bonus turns?

    As I said, they might have a flag in there, but the system is still bypassing it and using TM and then Speed to break the ties, not the programming that is supposed guarantee Han's priority.
  • Kyno
    25945 posts Moderator
    They both get bonus turns, but Hans is coded to supersede Wats. That was not changed from the old and new system.

    That's kinda what I said, they have a flag to give Han's bonus turn priority, but that flag isn't recognized in the new system.

    Don't you concede that the coding is not guaranteeing that Han shoots first? Or do you disbelieve all the reports of Han's bonus turn following other characters' bonus turns?

    As I said, they might have a flag in there, but the system is still bypassing it and using TM and then Speed to break the ties, not the programming that is supposed guarantee Han's priority.

    I just wanted to correct you when you said Wat gets 100% tm and Han gets a bonus turn. that is not true, they both get bonus turns.
    It is working as it was programmed in the new system. some of the old event were built with bonus turns that seem to be on the same level as Hans. Those events are the only time that Han will have to "win" his turn, and that comes down to the new system, where TM overshoot and speed come into play.
  • StarSon
    4523 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    They both get bonus turns, but Hans is coded to supersede Wats. That was not changed from the old and new system.

    That's kinda what I said, they have a flag to give Han's bonus turn priority, but that flag isn't recognized in the new system.

    Don't you concede that the coding is not guaranteeing that Han shoots first? Or do you disbelieve all the reports of Han's bonus turn following other characters' bonus turns?

    As I said, they might have a flag in there, but the system is still bypassing it and using TM and then Speed to break the ties, not the programming that is supposed guarantee Han's priority.

    I just wanted to correct you when you said Wat gets 100% tm and Han gets a bonus turn. that is not true, they both get bonus turns.
    It is working as it was programmed in the new system. some of the old event were built with bonus turns that seem to be on the same level as Hans. Those events are the only time that Han will have to "win" his turn, and that comes down to the new system, where TM overshoot and speed come into play.

    WAI, but not WAD. Has anyone actually tested against a faster Wat? Because it seems like if Han really had a flag to say he shoots first this wouldn't have been possible.
  • Han and Wat are both working fine. There is one old event that has coding that conflicts the new system because it's a very outdated event that doesn't matter.

    There have been no other reports of it not working in any other game mode or area.

    CG/EA said they would investigate it and they might fix the event later down the track but it will be a low priority because it's very low impact.
  • It is working as it was programmed in the new system.

    No offense, but I hate it when people say that.

    Of course it's working as it was programmed. It can't possibly be working other than as programmed. Even when the game crashes, it's because it followed its program. That's the nature of a computer program.

    Saying this simply doesn't add anything to the conversation. WAI is useful information. Working As Programmed (I'm afraid to type in WAP b/c of current musical controversies) is ... not useful.

    It is working as it was programmed in the new system. some of the old event were built with bonus turns that seem to be on the same level as Hans.

    I find this odd. What I take from this is that you're saying that contrary to my earlier speculation that the system was "not recognizing" the flag indicating Han should take his bonus turn first, the system IS recognizing that flag, but other characters have an identical flag, and as a result the game is defaulting to the tiebreaker.

    While theoretically that could account for the game's behavior, that doesn't explain why we never saw this behavior in that event before. There were tie breakers before, the tie breakers were simply RNG-based. If they have identical priority flags, then RNG should have broken the ties before and we would have had many reports of Han going 2nd (or 5th or whatever) during previous iterations of the event. We did not have those reports.

    So while you're proposed scenario accounts for current behavior, it runs counter to the evidence that this behavior is new.

    Since I don't believe that they were busy changing priority flags recently (why would they?) the only reasonable conclusion is that Han's priority flag simply isn't being recognized for some reason.

    I suppose that in some technical sense the flag might be "recognized" but is now given identical priority to whatever priority flag the event units have. But that isn't the sense in which I'm using the word.

    If the program does not recognize the flag as giving Han ***first priority*** then it isn't recognizing the flag as I understand it to be intended. The fact that CG considers this something needing fixing would seem to indicate that I'm correct that this is not WAI.

    If the priority flag isn't giving Han the first shot, then it's not being "recognized" in the only sense that's really relevant here.

    Now they could try to sort out that priority system, but I bet it would be easier to simply give Han +1000% TM at the end of each encounter and we'd never see this behavior again.

  • Gifafi
    4993 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    As I understand it, the difference is that Wat Tambor is granted 100% turn meter, while Han is granted a bonus turn, although it's also possible that they had some sort of flag before that broke the "bonus turn" tie. They're not using the old system for breaking ties, so if they did have such a flag, it obviously is unrecognized by the new system.

    They both get bonus turns, but Hans is coded to supersede Wats. That was not changed from the old and new system.

    kyno can you confirm this is only with these events like GC? or AB's or w/e? I just want to confirm that han will always shoot first (unless opponent has a faster han) in the other areas of the game like gac or tw/arena etc.
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • Kyno
    25945 posts Moderator
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    As I understand it, the difference is that Wat Tambor is granted 100% turn meter, while Han is granted a bonus turn, although it's also possible that they had some sort of flag before that broke the "bonus turn" tie. They're not using the old system for breaking ties, so if they did have such a flag, it obviously is unrecognized by the new system.

    They both get bonus turns, but Hans is coded to supersede Wats. That was not changed from the old and new system.

    kyno can you confirm this is only with these events like GC? or AB's or w/e? I just want to confirm that han will always shoot first (unless opponent has a faster han) in the other areas of the game like gac or tw/arena etc.

    Yes in PvP modes he will have his bonus turn first, unless another Han is involved, then it will be up to the rules stated.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    It is working as it was programmed in the new system.
    Everything always works as it was programmed. Computers are picky about that. The real question is does the program do what the programmer wanted it to do.

    This new system is garbage. Han will get the first shot in many instances, but if he took the last shot in the preceeding encounter/wave, then he probably will not go first in the next.
    Kyno wrote: »
    some of the old event were built with bonus turns that seem to be on the same level as Hans. Those events are the only time that Han will have to "win" his turn, and that comes down to the new system, where TM overshoot and speed come into play.
    "The only time" identified so far. Under this new system it is quite possible Han will not shoot first in the first encounter, provided the enemy characters have more preloaded TM than Han and/or are faster. We already know that the enemy characters can have more than 100% TM ... Han may start the encounter with exactly 100% TM and he does not shoot first, so the enemy MUST have more. My guess is that there are more situations like this just waiting to be found.
  • Gifafi
    4993 posts Member
    TL;DR: none of this matter, fastest Han always shoots first except in isolted incidents in pve, and if you are relying on your han shooting first to win in GC or w/e, rip.
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • Kyno
    25945 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    It is working as it was programmed in the new system.
    Kyno wrote: »
    some of the old event were built with bonus turns that seem to be on the same level as Hans. Those events are the only time that Han will have to "win" his turn, and that comes down to the new system, where TM overshoot and speed come into play.
    "The only time" identified so far. Under this new system it is quite possible Han will not shoot first in the first encounter, provided the enemy characters have more preloaded TM than Han and/or are faster. We already know that the enemy characters can have more than 100% TM ... Han may start the encounter with exactly 100% TM and he does not shoot first, so the enemy MUST have more. My guess is that there are more situations like this just waiting to be found.

    according to the post bonus turns will go before natural TM, including overflow. so no amount of preloaded TM should override a bonus turn.
    NOTE #1: Units who have been granted a bonus turn are subject to the same rules, but they will take their turn before anyone who has not been granted a bonus turn. If there are multiple units with a bonus turn, the order is determined by the same criteria: highest overflow, then highest speed, then randomly.
  • Gifafi wrote: »
    TL;DR: none of this matter, fastest Han always shoots first except in isolted incidents in pve, and if you are relying on your han shooting first to win in GC or w/e, rip.

    Shooting first (and ignoring Taunt, and applying Stun, and cannot be evaded) is precisely what gives Han his best value. Take that away and he loses a ton. Just say no to the nerfstick.
  • @EventineElessedil
    Shooting first (and ignoring Taunt, and applying Stun, and cannot be evaded) is precisely what gives Han his best value. Take that away and he loses a ton. Just say no to the nerfstick.

    We all respect Kyno, but let's not misconstrue "working as programmed" - as you say, it's a meaningless term and however much you might disagree with Gifafi, Gifafi has nothing to do with the implementation of the game, so don't sweat it.

    I just don't think that Han is being nerfed. There's some unintended stuff going on in the program, and as I understand it, those interactions that are leading to Han shooting after someone else goes first are on the list of things to be fixed. We don't have to say no to the nerfstick. The nerfstick isn't coming.
    1. I did not say that "working as programmed" was a meaningless term.
    2. Han was already nerfed, that is the whole point. The new system nerfed him.
  • @EventineElessedil
    I did not say that "working as programmed" was a meaningless term.

    No, you said something that I thought was essentially the same thing, and thus reworded it to be pithier but, I thought, synonymous. Here's your original wording:
    Everything always works as it was programmed. Computers are picky about that.

    If every program works as programmed than "works as programmed" is a meaningless term. I admit the precise words are my paraphrase not your quote, but I think we can agree that it's pointless to say that a program works as programmed. That's what they do.
    Han was already nerfed, that is the whole point. The new system nerfed him.

    Then we disagree on the meaning of the terms. Han is bugged, not nerfed, in the way I use those terms. CG has made it clear that they intend to restore the original function, so why stress?
  • Gifafi
    4993 posts Member
    Gifafi wrote: »
    TL;DR: none of this matter, fastest Han always shoots first except in isolted incidents in pve, and if you are relying on your han shooting first to win in GC or w/e, rip.

    Shooting first (and ignoring Taunt, and applying Stun, and cannot be evaded) is precisely what gives Han his best value. Take that away and he loses a ton. Just say no to the nerfstick.

    take that away when/where? in the very few times you face a pre-loaded-bonus-turn char in pve like GC? it's such a small deal. Han still works exactly the same everywhere else, that's the point
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
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