Ahnald posted a vidoe on this and JML gets destroyed vs. SEE and looks bugged on the protection. Or they just didn't test them against each other, looks incorrect
I get the feeling that something is not quite right with Luke. The recommended team (which breaks up ca. 3 different teams) gets literally smashed by drevan & friends. Bulldog recently showcased to defeat JML with Bastila-L jedi.
Both of the new GL-s are stilly very young, granted, but so far it looks like that GML is just the most expensive SLK-counter to this day.
I think the question we should be asking is "Is there any footage of UltBLM vs UltSEE?" Like we saw with the last set of GLs, they are drastically changed in their viability and MUs by their ults.
I think the question we should be asking is "Is there any footage of UltBLM vs UltSEE?" Like we saw with the last set of GLs, they are drastically changed in their viability and MUs by their ults.
Ultimate is the best way to understand which one is better because Palpatine gets Unlimited Power and Luke gets reduced cooldowns, the ability for his team to use there specials again. They both end up increasing mastery for them and there team. Those are both big transformations and we can't decided which one is the better GL without them.
I can’t imagine that the devs gave GML a Protection-based Taunt and gave SEE Max Protection removal and didn’t see the interactions.
Okay, I could imagine it, but I think it’s very unlikely.
And I think it’s consistent with what we’ve seen before. GLs take reduced Damage from %Health (and I assume Protection) effects, but they don’t reduce Removing Max Health or Protection. That’s how an early Rey counter worked with GAS reducing her Max Health so she never reached Damage Immunity.
Well there's definitely something wrong there. I don't necessarily agree that Luke was intended to take reduced protection reduction (though I'd love if it were the case), but what's happening in the video does not at all match the ability as worded. When GAS takes a turn, we should see the number of segments become smaller, but the proportion of fill should stay the same.
Well there's definitely something wrong there. I don't necessarily agree that Luke was intended to take reduced protection reduction (though I'd love if it were the case), but what's happening in the video does not at all match the ability as worded. When GAS takes a turn, we should see the number of segments become smaller, but the proportion of fill should stay the same.
Just an FYI, there a few comments that are wrong in the breakdown of this video and some miscalculations use to explain things.
Well there's definitely something wrong there. I don't necessarily agree that Luke was intended to take reduced protection reduction (though I'd love if it were the case), but what's happening in the video does not at all match the ability as worded. When GAS takes a turn, we should see the number of segments become smaller, but the proportion of fill should stay the same.
Just an FYI, there a few comments that are wrong in the breakdown of this video and some miscalculations use to explain things.
Trying to get a post in response to this...
I haven't reviewed it a lot and it's possible he made some mistakes in his assumptions.
But it certainly looks like they both take damage when GAS takes a turn...maybe there's an ability missing there and he doesn't wait for damage numbers to pop up, but it could use some clarification.
To be clear, if Sow Discord was meant to say "stacking," then I think Anakin lost 80% when Luke took a turn and then again when he took his own turn, so he'd be at 0. But I'm not sure why Luke's acts the way it does.
I’m fairly certain that the effect is supposed to stack - otherwise why have it at the start of each Linked Ally’s turn and not the first one’s turn?
Whether it should become 0 so quickly I’m not sure, as it seems like it’s trying to remove the same value twice (or 160% Max Protection loss after two turns instead of 96%). It’s also possibly applying at the end of the turn instead the start like it’s described to do.
Also, Max Protection changes do not behave the same way as Max Health changes in respect to proportion of fill. That’s why Zeb’s unique works, along with other stacking Max Protections such as TIE Bomber, zzPalp, or (gasp) zK-2SO.
I’m fairly certain that the effect is supposed to stack - otherwise why have it at the start of each Linked Ally’s turn and not the first one’s turn?
Whether it should become 0 so quickly I’m not sure, as it seems like it’s trying to remove the same value twice (or 160% Max Protection loss after two turns instead of 96%). It’s also possibly applying at the end of the turn instead the start like it’s described to do.
Also, Max Protection changes do not behave the same way as Max Health changes in respect to proportion of fill. That’s why Zeb’s unique works, along with other stacking Max Protections such as TIE Bomber, zzPalp, or (gasp) zK-2SO.
If Max Protection change doesn't work like Max Health, then maybe what we're seeing is WAI.
For Anakin, if it is meant to be stacking, I would think it would be -160% on the second turn. What we've learned about things like offense adjustments, is it doesn't multiply against an updated previous value, but that you add all the modifiers together and the use that as a multiplier against their base. Like for example, Traya causing an enemy to lose 50% offense makes Han's second shot 0, not 25%. So maybe that's how it works here.
Well there's definitely something wrong there. I don't necessarily agree that Luke was intended to take reduced protection reduction (though I'd love if it were the case), but what's happening in the video does not at all match the ability as worded. When GAS takes a turn, we should see the number of segments become smaller, but the proportion of fill should stay the same.
I always thought that for the longest time, However when GAS reduces Max health, the health bar goes more towards full, also when EP gains increased protection from his zeta, he will actually gain protection if he was at 0, so i don't think that is really the case. My guess is with large adds like DN annhilate the amount added to acutal an base is so large it just doesn't look like it moved (or DN max health gain from annhilate is different kitten if I know anymore)
Well there's definitely something wrong there. I don't necessarily agree that Luke was intended to take reduced protection reduction (though I'd love if it were the case), but what's happening in the video does not at all match the ability as worded. When GAS takes a turn, we should see the number of segments become smaller, but the proportion of fill should stay the same.
I always thought that for the longest time, However when GAS reduces Max health, the health bar goes more towards full, also when EP gains increased protection from his zeta, he will actually gain protection if he was at 0, so i don't think that is really the case. My guess is with large adds like DN annhilate the amount added to acutal an base is so large it just doesn't look like it moved (or DN max health gain from annhilate is different kitten if I know anymore)
Well in that case it's very possible all is WAI here.
To be clear, if Sow Discord was meant to say "stacking," then I think Anakin lost 80% when Luke took a turn and then again when he took his own turn, so he'd be at 0. But I'm not sure why Luke's acts the way it does.
It could also be that the max protection value that it is using on luke is not counting the 70% gained (at R7) from GL unique, requiring 3 turns of linked enemies to go to 0. Would not be the first time it was using the in battle value was not being used.
Hey, y'all.
I tracked down a designer for some thoughts on the video. Hope this helps clear up some things.
---
DESIGNER FEEDBACK:
Note on how Max Protection changes work: When Max Protection is increased or decreased, the unit's Protection is also increased or decreased by the same integer amount.
1:40 - He says Protection looks unaffected. However, that's how Max Protection changes work visually when at 100% Protection. If you are at 100% Protection, the bar will stay at 100% visually when you increase or decrease Max Protection.
2:28 - He counts the 8,623 damage twice, throwing off the total damage calculation.
2:34 - He doesn't count the 14,687 damage hit at the end of the counter attacks, throwing off the total damage calculation.
2:39 - He says the counter attacks dealt about 20% of Luke's Protection in damage going off of the bar. However, he's counting the extra half-pip that exists to help maintain the visual presentation of the bar (which slopes down at the ends); it was actually ~4/15 pips or ~26% of Luke's Protection.
3:00 - He assumes stat adjustments stack multiplicatively, but they don't; they stack additively. This means that -80% is being added to +70% (from the Galactic Legend unique ability and Luke being at R7) for a total of -10% from Luke's base Max Protection (before the 100% Mastery increase comes into play).
With proper numbers:
8,623 + 3,907 + 9,894 + 14,687 = 37,111
37,111 / 0.26 = 142,734
142,734 / 0.9 = 158,593 base Max Protection (estimated)
3:10 - He says that Linked is dealing percent damage, which it is not. It is modifying Max Protection, so it does not interact with the Galactic Legend unique ability.
4:09 - He says that General Skywalker won't take a turn because he's been Feared. Fear doesn't stop a character from taking turns, it simply prevents the character from using an ability until the effect expires. So Skywalker takes his turn, triggering the Linked Max Protection reduction, doesn't use an ability due to Fear, and then his turn is over. Also incorrectly called "skips his turn" at 4:20.
4:22 - The visual change in the Protection bar here is because the game removes from Protection the exact amount of Max Protection that was removed. This causes the percentage fill to be different (e.g. 7/10 = 70%, 2/5 = 40%). General Skywalker's Protection bar is gone because he has reached 0 or less Max Protection. As stated earlier, Luke is not taking any damage here so the Galactic Legend unique ability does not interact with this stat modification.
4:43 - He says that the AI interaction is not working as intended. The functionality of stat modifications is not affected by the AI. If he simply meant the functionality on defense, that also has no effect on stat modifications. I can guarantee that everything is working as intended here.
5:00 - Just want to reiterate that this effect is not a damaging effect, so there is no interaction with the Galactic Legend unique ability's damage reduction.
5:24 - The granted ability's damage is based on Luke's base Max Protection, which is the value he had when he entered battle. This means that both increases and decreases to his Max Protection over the course of battle will not impact the damage or recovery portions of Inherited Teachings.
- Side note: When referenced in abilities, "base [stat]" refers to the stat as the unit entered battle, meaning it does factor in mods. As such, modding Jedi Master Luke Skywalker with additional Max Protection will increase Inherited Teachings' damage and recovery.
5:37 - Yes.
6:05 - The people that responded to him are correct that modifying Max Protection is not dealing damage, and no, nothing is going wrong. There are just incorrect assumptions being made regarding how the game works.
Hey, y'all.
I tracked down a designer for some thoughts on the video. Hope this helps clear up some things.
---
DESIGNER FEEDBACK:
Note on how Max Protection changes work: When Max Protection is increased or decreased, the unit's Protection is also increased or decreased by the same integer amount.
1:40 - He says Protection looks unaffected. However, that's how Max Protection changes work visually when at 100% Protection. If you are at 100% Protection, the bar will stay at 100% visually when you increase or decrease Max Protection.
2:28 - He counts the 8,623 damage twice, throwing off the total damage calculation.
2:34 - He doesn't count the 14,687 damage hit at the end of the counter attacks, throwing off the total damage calculation.
2:39 - He says the counter attacks dealt about 20% of Luke's Protection in damage going off of the bar. However, he's counting the extra half-pip that exists to help maintain the visual presentation of the bar (which slopes down at the ends); it was actually ~4/15 pips or ~26% of Luke's Protection.
3:00 - He assumes stat adjustments stack multiplicatively, but they don't; they stack additively. This means that -80% is being added to +70% (from the Galactic Legend unique ability and Luke being at R7) for a total of -10% from Luke's base Max Protection (before the 100% Mastery increase comes into play).
With proper numbers:
8,623 + 3,907 + 9,894 + 14,687 = 37,111
37,111 / 0.26 = 142,734
142,734 / 0.9 = 158,593 base Max Protection (estimated)
3:10 - He says that Linked is dealing percent damage, which it is not. It is modifying Max Protection, so it does not interact with the Galactic Legend unique ability.
4:09 - He says that General Skywalker won't take a turn because he's been Feared. Fear doesn't stop a character from taking turns, it simply prevents the character from using an ability until the effect expires. So Skywalker takes his turn, triggering the Linked Max Protection reduction, doesn't use an ability due to Fear, and then his turn is over. Also incorrectly called "skips his turn" at 4:20.
4:22 - The visual change in the Protection bar here is because the game removes from Protection the exact amount of Max Protection that was removed. This causes the percentage fill to be different (e.g. 7/10 = 70%, 2/5 = 40%). General Skywalker's Protection bar is gone because he has reached 0 or less Max Protection. As stated earlier, Luke is not taking any damage here so the Galactic Legend unique ability does not interact with this stat modification.
4:43 - He says that the AI interaction is not working as intended. The functionality of stat modifications is not affected by the AI. If he simply meant the functionality on defense, that also has no effect on stat modifications. I can guarantee that everything is working as intended here.
5:00 - Just want to reiterate that this effect is not a damaging effect, so there is no interaction with the Galactic Legend unique ability's damage reduction.
5:24 - The granted ability's damage is based on Luke's base Max Protection, which is the value he had when he entered battle. This means that both increases and decreases to his Max Protection over the course of battle will not impact the damage or recovery portions of Inherited Teachings.
- Side note: When referenced in abilities, "base [stat]" refers to the stat as the unit entered battle, meaning it does factor in mods. As such, modding Jedi Master Luke Skywalker with additional Max Protection will increase Inherited Teachings' damage and recovery.
5:37 - Yes.
6:05 - The people that responded to him are correct that modifying Max Protection is not dealing damage, and no, nothing is going wrong. There are just incorrect assumptions being made regarding how the game works.
Wow. Speechless. I just can't believe it.
We need more of this type of communication. It would eliminate hundreds and hundreds of arguments among people who are unqualified to explain how it "should" work.
No disrespect to the peeps trying to explain mechanics but we are not devs.
Replies
Both have to be in the same arena shard and around the same rank.
To nerf or buff the GL is the "ultimate" question.
Or is it
Both of the new GL-s are stilly very young, granted, but so far it looks like that GML is just the most expensive SLK-counter to this day.
Ultimate is the best way to understand which one is better because Palpatine gets Unlimited Power and Luke gets reduced cooldowns, the ability for his team to use there specials again. They both end up increasing mastery for them and there team. Those are both big transformations and we can't decided which one is the better GL without them.
Okay, I could imagine it, but I think it’s very unlikely.
And I think it’s consistent with what we’ve seen before. GLs take reduced Damage from %Health (and I assume Protection) effects, but they don’t reduce Removing Max Health or Protection. That’s how an early Rey counter worked with GAS reducing her Max Health so she never reached Damage Immunity.
Well there's definitely something wrong there. I don't necessarily agree that Luke was intended to take reduced protection reduction (though I'd love if it were the case), but what's happening in the video does not at all match the ability as worded. When GAS takes a turn, we should see the number of segments become smaller, but the proportion of fill should stay the same.
Just an FYI, there a few comments that are wrong in the breakdown of this video and some miscalculations use to explain things.
Trying to get a post in response to this...
I haven't reviewed it a lot and it's possible he made some mistakes in his assumptions.
But it certainly looks like they both take damage when GAS takes a turn...maybe there's an ability missing there and he doesn't wait for damage numbers to pop up, but it could use some clarification.
Whether it should become 0 so quickly I’m not sure, as it seems like it’s trying to remove the same value twice (or 160% Max Protection loss after two turns instead of 96%). It’s also possibly applying at the end of the turn instead the start like it’s described to do.
Also, Max Protection changes do not behave the same way as Max Health changes in respect to proportion of fill. That’s why Zeb’s unique works, along with other stacking Max Protections such as TIE Bomber, zzPalp, or (gasp) zK-2SO.
If Max Protection change doesn't work like Max Health, then maybe what we're seeing is WAI.
For Anakin, if it is meant to be stacking, I would think it would be -160% on the second turn. What we've learned about things like offense adjustments, is it doesn't multiply against an updated previous value, but that you add all the modifiers together and the use that as a multiplier against their base. Like for example, Traya causing an enemy to lose 50% offense makes Han's second shot 0, not 25%. So maybe that's how it works here.
I always thought that for the longest time, However when GAS reduces Max health, the health bar goes more towards full, also when EP gains increased protection from his zeta, he will actually gain protection if he was at 0, so i don't think that is really the case. My guess is with large adds like DN annhilate the amount added to acutal an base is so large it just doesn't look like it moved (or DN max health gain from annhilate is different kitten if I know anymore)
It... should be? Being a GL shouldn’t reduce the Max Protection loss from SEE’s Link.
Well in that case it's very possible all is WAI here.
It could also be that the max protection value that it is using on luke is not counting the 70% gained (at R7) from GL unique, requiring 3 turns of linked enemies to go to 0. Would not be the first time it was using the in battle value was not being used.
Hey, y'all.
I tracked down a designer for some thoughts on the video. Hope this helps clear up some things.
---
DESIGNER FEEDBACK:
Note on how Max Protection changes work: When Max Protection is increased or decreased, the unit's Protection is also increased or decreased by the same integer amount.
1:40 - He says Protection looks unaffected. However, that's how Max Protection changes work visually when at 100% Protection. If you are at 100% Protection, the bar will stay at 100% visually when you increase or decrease Max Protection.
2:28 - He counts the 8,623 damage twice, throwing off the total damage calculation.
2:34 - He doesn't count the 14,687 damage hit at the end of the counter attacks, throwing off the total damage calculation.
2:39 - He says the counter attacks dealt about 20% of Luke's Protection in damage going off of the bar. However, he's counting the extra half-pip that exists to help maintain the visual presentation of the bar (which slopes down at the ends); it was actually ~4/15 pips or ~26% of Luke's Protection.
3:00 - He assumes stat adjustments stack multiplicatively, but they don't; they stack additively. This means that -80% is being added to +70% (from the Galactic Legend unique ability and Luke being at R7) for a total of -10% from Luke's base Max Protection (before the 100% Mastery increase comes into play).
With proper numbers:
8,623 + 3,907 + 9,894 + 14,687 = 37,111
37,111 / 0.26 = 142,734
142,734 / 0.9 = 158,593 base Max Protection (estimated)
3:10 - He says that Linked is dealing percent damage, which it is not. It is modifying Max Protection, so it does not interact with the Galactic Legend unique ability.
4:09 - He says that General Skywalker won't take a turn because he's been Feared. Fear doesn't stop a character from taking turns, it simply prevents the character from using an ability until the effect expires. So Skywalker takes his turn, triggering the Linked Max Protection reduction, doesn't use an ability due to Fear, and then his turn is over. Also incorrectly called "skips his turn" at 4:20.
4:22 - The visual change in the Protection bar here is because the game removes from Protection the exact amount of Max Protection that was removed. This causes the percentage fill to be different (e.g. 7/10 = 70%, 2/5 = 40%). General Skywalker's Protection bar is gone because he has reached 0 or less Max Protection. As stated earlier, Luke is not taking any damage here so the Galactic Legend unique ability does not interact with this stat modification.
4:43 - He says that the AI interaction is not working as intended. The functionality of stat modifications is not affected by the AI. If he simply meant the functionality on defense, that also has no effect on stat modifications. I can guarantee that everything is working as intended here.
5:00 - Just want to reiterate that this effect is not a damaging effect, so there is no interaction with the Galactic Legend unique ability's damage reduction.
5:24 - The granted ability's damage is based on Luke's base Max Protection, which is the value he had when he entered battle. This means that both increases and decreases to his Max Protection over the course of battle will not impact the damage or recovery portions of Inherited Teachings.
- Side note: When referenced in abilities, "base [stat]" refers to the stat as the unit entered battle, meaning it does factor in mods. As such, modding Jedi Master Luke Skywalker with additional Max Protection will increase Inherited Teachings' damage and recovery.
5:37 - Yes.
6:05 - The people that responded to him are correct that modifying Max Protection is not dealing damage, and no, nothing is going wrong. There are just incorrect assumptions being made regarding how the game works.
Wow. Speechless. I just can't believe it.
We need more of this type of communication. It would eliminate hundreds and hundreds of arguments among people who are unqualified to explain how it "should" work.
No disrespect to the peeps trying to explain mechanics but we are not devs.
Excellent post CG person.