GAC matchmaking system

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  • MaruMaru
    2312 posts Member
    Starslayer wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    You didn't get the suggestion I was making though. I didn't ever ask for an overhaul but the gp tables that currently doesn't reflect investment in any manner can be made to reflect it much much better if the climbing numbers were higher. One can do such a mock up table that suits this purpose as well.

    You and Kyno seem to misunderstand each other on details. Let's try to simplify things to keep this debate healthy and rolling.

    Do you have an idea (even a rough one) of a new GP table so we can see what you're suggesting and how it would improve the "reality" of GP value ? Doesn't have to be a whole new table, just an example would be perfectly fine.

    Sure, a more accurate one can be done and I will only care for g10-11-12 for the sake of brevity and this is what matters/skews for majority of us (will assume everything upto g9 is kept the same):

    Currently (I think this changed a bit but still has the very same ratios):

    G10 708 gp
    G11 792 gp
    G12 840 gp

    Suggestion table

    G10 708 gp
    G11 838 gp
    G12 1441 gp

    The suggestions are calculated from the averages I pulled out of 2 example toons. Such a change will result in low gear toons to hold much less gp in comparison to g12-13 ones which reflects the investment that goes into them.



  • Kyno wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Hortus wrote: »
    No one is saying it's perfect, but it 100% represents the way a player has invested on their end (time,crystals, and/or $$), and the choices they have made for farming over the lifetime of game play.

    It obviously incorrect because different pieces with equal formal value have very different value in terms or resources (time, energy, crystals, whatever) which player must put into actual farming.

    As an example - I don't care how many Mk 9 Neuro-Saav toon requires, I just click the button. But there are pieces which are completely another story. So if one toon requires 200 Kyros and 100 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav and other requires just 300 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav it's not equal investment, not even close.

    Correct they can have different values, but when added to a toon they have the same value.

    So applying all of your MK 9 Neuro-Saav will add some amount of GP. Or another player farms a bunch of different gear the equals that GP. Hoe your roster ends up at that point is based on the choices that each player made. That is how our investments show through the GP of a roster.

    Also, I should have added "rewards" to the list of stuff players can add.

    People have shown to you already that same gear won't add the same gp on different gear tiers. The way this reflects to matchmaking has nothing to do with "you chose that toon to gear, I did this, thus I have advantage", it's problematic because it breaks evennes of distributions between matched players.

    Can you please show me where a stun gun does not equal a stun gun when being applied to a toon. I have yet to see this, did I miss this post?

    Come on, I don’t really agree with MaruMaru in this discussion but it’s pretty obvious that putting a stun gun at g11 adds more GP than if you were to put that same stun gun at g8. I already said this earlier so yes you did miss the post
  • MaruMaru
    2312 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Hortus wrote: »
    No one is saying it's perfect, but it 100% represents the way a player has invested on their end (time,crystals, and/or $$), and the choices they have made for farming over the lifetime of game play.

    It obviously incorrect because different pieces with equal formal value have very different value in terms or resources (time, energy, crystals, whatever) which player must put into actual farming.

    As an example - I don't care how many Mk 9 Neuro-Saav toon requires, I just click the button. But there are pieces which are completely another story. So if one toon requires 200 Kyros and 100 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav and other requires just 300 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav it's not equal investment, not even close.

    Correct they can have different values, but when added to a toon they have the same value.

    So applying all of your MK 9 Neuro-Saav will add some amount of GP. Or another player farms a bunch of different gear the equals that GP. Hoe your roster ends up at that point is based on the choices that each player made. That is how our investments show through the GP of a roster.

    Also, I should have added "rewards" to the list of stuff players can add.

    People have shown to you already that same gear won't add the same gp on different gear tiers. The way this reflects to matchmaking has nothing to do with "you chose that toon to gear, I did this, thus I have advantage", it's problematic because it breaks evennes of distributions between matched players.

    Can you please show me where a stun gun does not equal a stun gun when being applied to a toon. I have yet to see this, did I miss this post?

    Come on, I don’t really agree with MaruMaru in this discussion but it’s pretty obvious that putting a stun gun at g11 adds more GP than if you were to put that same stun gun at g8. I already said this earlier so yes you did miss the post

    Ok, since I already triump in the current system, any possible improvement doesn't even benefit me much. What 's your opinion on the matter I showcased, is it "it looks as you say and it's not necessary anyways"?

    For peeps at my gp (7.2m) we are either already or soon will be at full reliced matchmaking so these past tables have much less of an effect and ailed by huge gp gains on relics that dwarf all else.
  • MaruMaru wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Hortus wrote: »
    No one is saying it's perfect, but it 100% represents the way a player has invested on their end (time,crystals, and/or $$), and the choices they have made for farming over the lifetime of game play.

    It obviously incorrect because different pieces with equal formal value have very different value in terms or resources (time, energy, crystals, whatever) which player must put into actual farming.

    As an example - I don't care how many Mk 9 Neuro-Saav toon requires, I just click the button. But there are pieces which are completely another story. So if one toon requires 200 Kyros and 100 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav and other requires just 300 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav it's not equal investment, not even close.

    Correct they can have different values, but when added to a toon they have the same value.

    So applying all of your MK 9 Neuro-Saav will add some amount of GP. Or another player farms a bunch of different gear the equals that GP. Hoe your roster ends up at that point is based on the choices that each player made. That is how our investments show through the GP of a roster.

    Also, I should have added "rewards" to the list of stuff players can add.

    People have shown to you already that same gear won't add the same gp on different gear tiers. The way this reflects to matchmaking has nothing to do with "you chose that toon to gear, I did this, thus I have advantage", it's problematic because it breaks evennes of distributions between matched players.

    Can you please show me where a stun gun does not equal a stun gun when being applied to a toon. I have yet to see this, did I miss this post?

    Come on, I don’t really agree with MaruMaru in this discussion but it’s pretty obvious that putting a stun gun at g11 adds more GP than if you were to put that same stun gun at g8. I already said this earlier so yes you did miss the post

    Ok, since I already triump in the current system, any possible improvement doesn't even benefit me much. What 's your opinion on the matter I showcased, is it "it looks as you say and it's not necessary anyways"?

    For peeps at my gp (7.2m) we are either already or soon will be at full reliced matchmaking so these past tables have much less of an effect and ailed by huge gp gains on relics that dwarf all else.

    Perhaps "don't really agree" wasn't exactly correct. I understand what you're saying and why you think this, I just don't think that changing it would matter that much. But I already don't really care a whole lot about GAC so I'm probably biased in that anyway. All I really wanted to do was point out an obvious answer to a bad-faith question that was already been answered in the thread
  • MaruMaru
    2312 posts Member
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Hortus wrote: »
    No one is saying it's perfect, but it 100% represents the way a player has invested on their end (time,crystals, and/or $$), and the choices they have made for farming over the lifetime of game play.

    It obviously incorrect because different pieces with equal formal value have very different value in terms or resources (time, energy, crystals, whatever) which player must put into actual farming.

    As an example - I don't care how many Mk 9 Neuro-Saav toon requires, I just click the button. But there are pieces which are completely another story. So if one toon requires 200 Kyros and 100 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav and other requires just 300 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav it's not equal investment, not even close.

    Correct they can have different values, but when added to a toon they have the same value.

    So applying all of your MK 9 Neuro-Saav will add some amount of GP. Or another player farms a bunch of different gear the equals that GP. Hoe your roster ends up at that point is based on the choices that each player made. That is how our investments show through the GP of a roster.

    Also, I should have added "rewards" to the list of stuff players can add.

    People have shown to you already that same gear won't add the same gp on different gear tiers. The way this reflects to matchmaking has nothing to do with "you chose that toon to gear, I did this, thus I have advantage", it's problematic because it breaks evennes of distributions between matched players.

    Can you please show me where a stun gun does not equal a stun gun when being applied to a toon. I have yet to see this, did I miss this post?

    Come on, I don’t really agree with MaruMaru in this discussion but it’s pretty obvious that putting a stun gun at g11 adds more GP than if you were to put that same stun gun at g8. I already said this earlier so yes you did miss the post

    Ok, since I already triump in the current system, any possible improvement doesn't even benefit me much. What 's your opinion on the matter I showcased, is it "it looks as you say and it's not necessary anyways"?

    For peeps at my gp (7.2m) we are either already or soon will be at full reliced matchmaking so these past tables have much less of an effect and ailed by huge gp gains on relics that dwarf all else.

    Perhaps "don't really agree" wasn't exactly correct. I understand what you're saying and why you think this, I just don't think that changing it would matter that much. But I already don't really care a whole lot about GAC so I'm probably biased in that anyway. All I really wanted to do was point out an obvious answer to a bad-faith question that was already been answered in the thread

    Yup, almost over g10-12 relevancy in my mm as well. Rest is reduced get advantage against relic sandbagging against folks that doesn't do it.
  • Kyno
    30529 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Hortus wrote: »
    No one is saying it's perfect, but it 100% represents the way a player has invested on their end (time,crystals, and/or $$), and the choices they have made for farming over the lifetime of game play.

    It obviously incorrect because different pieces with equal formal value have very different value in terms or resources (time, energy, crystals, whatever) which player must put into actual farming.

    As an example - I don't care how many Mk 9 Neuro-Saav toon requires, I just click the button. But there are pieces which are completely another story. So if one toon requires 200 Kyros and 100 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav and other requires just 300 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav it's not equal investment, not even close.

    Correct they can have different values, but when added to a toon they have the same value.

    So applying all of your MK 9 Neuro-Saav will add some amount of GP. Or another player farms a bunch of different gear the equals that GP. Hoe your roster ends up at that point is based on the choices that each player made. That is how our investments show through the GP of a roster.

    Also, I should have added "rewards" to the list of stuff players can add.

    People have shown to you already that same gear won't add the same gp on different gear tiers. The way this reflects to matchmaking has nothing to do with "you chose that toon to gear, I did this, thus I have advantage", it's problematic because it breaks evennes of distributions between matched players.

    Can you please show me where a stun gun does not equal a stun gun when being applied to a toon. I have yet to see this, did I miss this post?

    Come on, I don’t really agree with MaruMaru in this discussion but it’s pretty obvious that putting a stun gun at g11 adds more GP than if you were to put that same stun gun at g8. I already said this earlier so yes you did miss the post

    Thanks, sorry I missed that.

    I still dont think that changes the fact that each piece is an investment on both our end and into our roster, and that in the end it represents our choices.

    Gear tables and everything added dont need to be equal from toon to toon, because the same pieces added to a toon, in the same gear level, are equal.
  • MaruMaru
    2312 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Hortus wrote: »
    No one is saying it's perfect, but it 100% represents the way a player has invested on their end (time,crystals, and/or $$), and the choices they have made for farming over the lifetime of game play.

    It obviously incorrect because different pieces with equal formal value have very different value in terms or resources (time, energy, crystals, whatever) which player must put into actual farming.

    As an example - I don't care how many Mk 9 Neuro-Saav toon requires, I just click the button. But there are pieces which are completely another story. So if one toon requires 200 Kyros and 100 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav and other requires just 300 Mk 9 Neuro-Saav it's not equal investment, not even close.

    Correct they can have different values, but when added to a toon they have the same value.

    So applying all of your MK 9 Neuro-Saav will add some amount of GP. Or another player farms a bunch of different gear the equals that GP. Hoe your roster ends up at that point is based on the choices that each player made. That is how our investments show through the GP of a roster.

    Also, I should have added "rewards" to the list of stuff players can add.

    People have shown to you already that same gear won't add the same gp on different gear tiers. The way this reflects to matchmaking has nothing to do with "you chose that toon to gear, I did this, thus I have advantage", it's problematic because it breaks evennes of distributions between matched players.

    Can you please show me where a stun gun does not equal a stun gun when being applied to a toon. I have yet to see this, did I miss this post?

    Come on, I don’t really agree with MaruMaru in this discussion but it’s pretty obvious that putting a stun gun at g11 adds more GP than if you were to put that same stun gun at g8. I already said this earlier so yes you did miss the post

    Thanks, sorry I missed that.

    I still dont think that changes the fact that each piece is an investment on both our end and into our roster, and that in the end it represents our choices.

    Gear tables and everything added dont need to be equal from toon to toon, because the same pieces added to a toon, in the same gear level, are equal.

    Gear tables are equal globally in the game. Check the reddit link.
  • Kyno
    30529 posts Moderator
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Null hypothesis:
    If gp was to be reflective of investment, one would expect investment values for gear would somewhat reflect the gp increases of gear tiers.


    Hypothesis doesn't hold up. Investment value changes are several magnitudes higher than the gp changes for gear.

    Your expectation do not change the fact that, pieces of gear are earned through investment and placing them is an investment into our rosters, both of which represent players choices.


    Making gear tiers equal totals for all characters, isnt necessary nor would it change what I have been saying this whole time. Gear tier is not used for any comparison in game, the points gained by placing the pieces is.
  • MaruMaru
    2312 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Null hypothesis:
    If gp was to be reflective of investment, one would expect investment values for gear would somewhat reflect the gp increases of gear tiers.


    Hypothesis doesn't hold up. Investment value changes are several magnitudes higher than the gp changes for gear.

    Your expectation do not change the fact that, pieces of gear are earned through investment and placing them is an investment into our rosters, both of which represent players choices.


    Making gear tiers equal totals for all characters, isnt necessary nor would it change what I have been saying this whole time. Gear tier is not used for any comparison in game, the points gained by placing the pieces is.

    Neither is what I said. Again...reading.
  • ImaSmakya
    704 posts Member
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    DISCLAIMER: Post is subject to change.
  • MaruMaru
    2312 posts Member
    Gear tiers are equal for all characters...since gp tables are global. Fact.
  • Kyno
    30529 posts Moderator
    Sorry, I was misunderstanding what you were saying about gear GP totals being equal for all characters.

    Gear tiers are not equal, as you have pointed out in your other post. Gear tables (the total GP of all gear added) are equal.

    The gear GP total being equal doesnt change this:
    pieces of gear are earned through investment and placing them is an investment into our rosters, both of which represent players choices.

    Which means the idea/statement of investment does hold water.

    Again, the points of fully gearing a character should be equal, that allows players choices to show through and not a dev saying Y character is worth more.

    You can fully gear GAS, or you can fully gear Ezra. And if 2 players each pick one they can be matched against each other and the better choice will help the player win.

    The later tiers giving more points is not really one way or the other, they do scale and a change to how much would be a little bit of an arbitrary change, as it would be just a relative change to all players. So everyone would scale at the same rate and nothing would change except the number seen.
  • MaruMaru
    2312 posts Member
    edited June 6
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sorry, I was misunderstanding what you were saying about gear GP totals being equal for all characters.

    Gear tiers are not equal, as you have pointed out in your other post. Gear tables (the total GP of all gear added) are equal.

    The gear GP total being equal doesnt change this:
    pieces of gear are earned through investment and placing them is an investment into our rosters, both of which represent players choices.

    Which means the idea/statement of investment does hold water.

    Again, the points of fully gearing a character should be equal, that allows players choices to show through and not a dev saying Y character is worth more.

    You can fully gear GAS, or you can fully gear Ezra. And if 2 players each pick one they can be matched against each other and the better choice will help the player win.

    The later tiers giving more points is not really one way or the other, they do scale and a change to how much would be a little bit of an arbitrary change, as it would be just a relative change to all players. So everyone would scale at the same rate and nothing would change except the number seen.

    Never said all characters should be gaining equal gp and should end up at the same gp. The point was NEVER the toons themselves but the gp tables in their gear tier values being the problem. =bad scaling that never was intended to suit it's current purpose.
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